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Unread 01-04-2020, 05:42 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Another perspective on the same topic Aria Venue
Not all astrologers have made a distinction between essential and accidental dignities and debilities. Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Valens, Paulus and other Hellenistic astrologers often group them together, for example Dorotheus and Valens compare ''inoperative'' planets in fall to ''inoperative'' planets in cadent houses, meaning that they thought they meant power, Ptolemy and Paulus likewise grouped ''inoperative'' phases (like evening retrograde) with them.

For the magnitude of the event we must examine their power and observe whether they are actively situated both in the cosmos itself and in the nativity, or the reverse; for they are most effective when, with respect to the cosmos, they are in their own or in familiar regions, and again when they are rising and are increasing in their numbers; and, with respect to the nativity, whenever they are passing through the angles or signs that rise after them, and especially the principal of these, by which I mean the signs ascendant and culminating. They are weakest, with respect to the universe, when they are in places belonging to others or those unrelated to them, and when they are occidental or retreating in their course; and, with respect to the nativity, when they are declining from the angles. -*.html#3
Ptolemy seems to make a distinction between the universe and the nativity only with regard to time here.

It is true that when such a distinction is sometimes made, the essential dignity is taken with regard to quality, while the accidental dignity is taken with regard to quantity, but this in my opinion wrong theoretically and experientially. Indian astrologers have even made two distinct concepts of Ishta (power to do good) and Kashtha (power to do harm) to do deal with some related problems.

Naturally, why does Saturn become stronger to help or harm at the Midheaven? You would answer that it has more power to cool there. Then I would ask why would Saturn become stronger to help, but not stronger to harm in Libra or Aquarius since these signs increase cold in the exact same way???

But you ask doesn't Saturn sometimes give great wealth and power to nativities, and doesn't he sometimes cause great afflictions? Yes, of course, but that has to do with his harmonious or disharmonious relationship with the planet/angle/lot through the different aspects and natures of the subjects. So combining essential and accidental dignity into the same concept does not prevent us from making these distinctions, while I would argue that too much emphasis on the essential dignity could prevent someone making this distinction in the particular cases - for example when it helps rank with trine to the Sun from Aquarius by day, but causes divorce with square to the Moon in a dual sign in a male nativity, Aquarius is not going to help the first and mitigate the latter, I argue that is going to increase and actualize the effects of both.

Powerful Saturn at the nativity does not mean that it will give only very good or very evil at all times (though it certainly can exceed in one direction), if you use the recasting of horoscopes at solar and lunar revolutions, planets change their powers, which allows for differentiation in the chronocratorship. You can't make this important differentiation if you only use primary directions, profections or what have you with the nativity though.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-04-2020 at 06:30 AM.
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Aria Venue (01-04-2020), JUPITERASC (01-08-2020)