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Mr stellium 10-01-2010 02:26 PM

Astrology of fertility and children
 
I thought i'd post a thread on this, as queries on this arise time and time again. WHOLE SIGN HOUSES and TRADITIONAL RULERS are used.
The most important considerations for fertility and children are:

1. The Lot of Children. If the Sun is above the horizon (above the Asc/Desc axis), then calculate the lot by taking the distance from Jupiter to Saturn (counterclockiwise, as always) and add this distance to the Ascendant. If the Sun is below the horizon, take the distance from Saturn to Jupiter and add this to the Ascendant. The sign the Lot falls in is now a significator for fertility. It is better to have the Lot and the ruler of the lot in effective houses (1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11 or same sign as MC or IC). But as the Lot becomes its own first house for the matter at hand (fertility), this should also be considered (e.g if the Lot is in Capricorn/8th and Venus is in Capricorn, this is favourable because Venus rules the 10th and 5th houses from the Lot and is an essential benefic).
The sign of the lot is very important. The signs in order of fertility are: Pisces, Cancer, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Taurus, Capricorn, Libra, Aquarius, Aries, Gemini, Leo, Virgo. There is general agreement that Pisces and Cancer are highly fertile and the Leo, Virgo and Gemini are signs of low fertilty (described as barren by some astrologers). I ranked the others according to my own experience.
The ancient astrologer Dorotheus had the following to say about the Lot of Children: Wherever it happens to be, look at its lord. Then count from the lot to its lord how many signs there are, or from its lord which follows it; whatever there is of signs between these two, that is the number of children. If you find a malefic between these two, it indicates the death of the children. If the Sun or Moon is in quartile or opposition with the lot, then the Sun will increase the male children, the Moon the female. If you find that there is no [planet] in the lot or aspecting it, then the first child will not be benefited by it because he will be miscarried or will die horribly. If you find the lot in a cardine or a good place, then it is a good indication in the matter of children. If it happens to be in the 6th or 12th place, then neither a male nor a female will be born to him, and he will suffer distress and grief from this; but if he should have children, they will not stay with him, so that they be apart from him in the cities. If the lot happens to be where none of the planets is in quartile or opposition to it, then these [natives] have a need for children. But if there are planets in opposition or quartile to the lot, then it indicates he will have a multitude of children. If the lot happens to be in a sign of few children, then it indicates a small number of children. If Saturn is with it, then it indicates he will be sterile or will have few children or will be grieved with an intense grief on account of children." (Carmen Astrologicum, II.10)

2. The 5th house. Planets in 5th? Good: Jupiter, Venus, Moon, Mercury. Not so good: Saturn, Mars, Sun. Is the 5th a fertile sign? Is the ruler in an effective house (see point 1 above)? How about tight aspects the ruler may be making? (e.g conjunct Jupiter - great!).

3. When will a child be conceived or born? When the Lot of Children is activated in a solar return by Jupiter or Venus. By "activated" I mean a very tight aspect, preferably a conjunction, square or opposition. Although ancient texts only mention Jupiter and Venus, I have also observed the other planets and the nodes to "activate" the Lot if the native is very fertile. If the natal indications are of very high fertility, then it may not show up in every solar return preceding birth or conception. I have found that the Lot tends to be activated for conception more so than the actual birth (Where conception and birth occured under different solar returns). Some Astrologers also observe that children are more likely when the profected Ascendant reaches the sign of Jupiter or Venus. (for those unfamiliar with 'profections', say someone was born with Aries rising. After their 1st birthday, the profected Ascendant is Taurus, at age 2 its Gemini and so on. The planet ruling the profected Ascendant is very important in the solar return, so in the above example we would look at the condition of Mercury in the solar return for the native's 3rd year). A more general indicator of timing is given by Ali Al-Khayyat Abu Ali Al-Khayyat in 'The Judgement of nativities' as translated by James Holden: For the time of children, look at the planet which is most dignified in the significations of children. If it is oriental (lesser degrees than the Sun e.g Sun in Capricorn, Venus in Sagittarius) it signifies children in youth; (I take this to mean before age 30) if it is occidental, in his old age; if it is in the MC or 11th sign, it promises children in youth; if in the 3rd, 9th or 4th, in mid-life. Also if the part of children (same as 'lot of children') is in the ASC, it signifies children in youth. If the part of children is in the 7th or 4th house, it will give children at the end of life.

4. Other Lots pertaining to children
Lot of Sons: Number of degrees from Moon to Jupiter added to Asc.
Lot of Daughters: Number of degrees from Moon to Venus added to Asc.
Lot of time of children: Number of degrees from Mars to Jupiter added to Asc.

None of these lots have their formula reversed for when the Sun is below the Asc/Desc axis. The first two function like the Lot of Children and can be activated in a solar return. In some instances, the Lot of Sons/Daughters may be activated instead of the Lot of Children when the native conceives or gives birth to the relevant sex.
The Lot of Time of children is different and is not activated by solar returns. Instead, aphorisms state that when Jupiter transits the degree of this Lot, sexual intercourse is more likely to lead to conception.

Warning: As this is a sensitive topic, the above information should be used cautiously and not in an indiscreet or casual manner. In the era of modern medicine and advances in fertility treatments, there is hope for almost any woman looking to have a child. It goes without saying that those who find it difficult to conceive should consult a gynecologist.

Examples:

1. Ethel Kennedy, wife of Robert F. Kennedy had 11 children. Her natal chart is shown here: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kennedy,_Ethel (Although the natal chart is shown with Placidus houses, I will be doing the delineation with Whole sign houses).

Natal delineation of many children: The Lot of Children is found in the 5th house at 1 Cancer. The Lot is in the natural house of children in a highly fertile (prolific) sign and the ruler is the Moon in Sagittarius/10th - this indicates many children.
Timing: First child Kathleen was born on 4/July/1951 and therefore was conceived under the 1950 solar return. In the 1950 solar return, Jupiter (29.16 Aquarius) aspects (by trine) the Lot within 2 degrees.
Second child Joseph Patrick was born on 24/September/1952. The 1951 return (birth of Kathleen and conception of Joseph Patrick) shows Mars at 1 Taurus sextile the lot within a degree. The 1952 return shows Venus at 2 Aries square the lot.
Third child Robert Francis jr was born on 17/January/1954, thus conceived under the 1953 solar return. The Lot does not appear to be activated in this return.
Fourth child David Anthony was born on 15/6/1955. The 1954 solar return shows Mars at 29.30 Sagittarius opposite the Lot within 2 degrees. The 1955 return shows the South Node at 0.08 Cancer conjunct the Lot, which is also when Mary Courtney (9/September/1956), her fifth child was conceived. I'll stop at this point, interested readers can check the remaining solar returns for the rest of the children.

2. Client A is a 34 year old male whose wife gave birth in July 2010. The child was conceived under the 2009 solar return.
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9...entahw3148.gif
Natal potential: The Lot of children falls at 25 Libra in the 10th house. The ruler is Venus/Taurus/5th with Jupiter and the Sun. This is positive for children. South Node in Taurus/5th conjunct Jupiter somewhat decreases fertility (34 is relatively late to start). The natal potential for children exists.

2009 Solar return:
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3...ienta20091.gif
Notice that Jupiter (25.45 Aquarius) tightly aspects the Lot by trine aspect.

I will not have the time nor do I intend to answer every query that may arise from this post so I strongly advise readers to make full use of the of the thousands of natal charts available freely on Astrodatabank (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page) to do their own research on this matter.
Members may also use this thread to post their own experiences (e.g maybe the lot of children was or was not aspected in a solar return when your child was conceived or born).

dr. farr 10-02-2010 04:41 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Excellent post; I nominate it as a "sticky" for the medical astrology section!

Mia1982 10-03-2010 09:28 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Thank you for posting that!!

I calculated my Part of Children, and it conjuncts my Mercury with an orb of 4 degrees, which is in Aquarius and my 1st House. My 5th House is empty and ruled by Gemini. Is this good news of bad news?

Mr stellium 10-04-2010 10:16 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia1982 (Post 238866)
Thank you for posting that!!

I calculated my Part of Children, and it conjuncts my Mercury with an orb of 4 degrees, which is in Aquarius and my 1st House. My 5th House is empty and ruled by Gemini. Is this good news of bad news?

Where is Saturn?

Mia1982 10-04-2010 03:38 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Saturn is in my 9th House, retrograde, Libra, and conjunct Mars and Pluto (also retrograde) but no aspects with Part of Fortune or Mercury.

Mr stellium 10-04-2010 05:02 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Saturn aspects Mercury by whole sign trine. The ruler exalted is good and the 9th house is OK. Conjunction to Mars is not so good.

Caro 10-06-2010 05:25 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
I think a very interesting post but in this area I would advise that people consult a professional astrologer. it is such a sensitive topic/discussion.

Kerrie 10-07-2010 02:00 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
thanks mr stellium - i havent even read it yet, but i will be spending the next hour on it i bet!

Me trying to conceive for the last 2 years 2 months now!

Kerrie 10-07-2010 02:23 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
lol i already knew my chart wasnt a good indicator of fertility. I have my lot of children in the 3rd at 5 gemini, mercury in 12th, leo is on the cusp of my 5th and the ruler is the sun is in 12th and opposite saturn in the 6th. if ever i saw a bad chart - there was one.

the positive thing about all of this is that back when traditional astrology came about they didnt have fertility treatments...

im about to look at my solar returns to hopefully get a yes out of that, mr stellium thanks again for this information

you dont talk about transits though... transit jupiter will be coming up to sextile my lot of children soon.. maybe that might produce a child for me.

Mr stellium 10-07-2010 10:05 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerrie (Post 239556)
lol i already knew my chart wasnt a good indicator of fertility. I have my lot of children in the 3rd at 5 gemini, mercury in 12th, leo is on the cusp of my 5th and the ruler is the sun is in 12th and opposite saturn in the 6th. if ever i saw a bad chart - there was one..

On a positive note, Pisces, your 12th is a fertile sign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerrie (Post 239556)
the positive thing about all of this is that back when traditional astrology came about they didnt have fertility treatments.....

Good point. Thats worth mentioning at the end of the main post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerrie (Post 239556)
im about to look at my solar returns to hopefully get a yes out of that, mr stellium thanks again for this information

you dont talk about transits though... transit jupiter will be coming up to sextile my lot of children soon.. maybe that might produce a child for me.

I'm not sure whether transits to the Lot of Children would be relevant, except in the case of the solar return. However, transits to the Lot of Time of Children may be better to focus on.

Kerrie 10-08-2010 09:32 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Would you be able to let me know the calculation for the Lot of Time of Children?

Mr stellium 10-08-2010 11:20 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerrie (Post 239834)
Would you be able to let me know the calculation for the Lot of Time of Children?

It's in the main post. I'll copy and paste it here:

4. Other Lots pertaining to children
Lot of Sons: Number of degrees from Moon to Jupiter added to Asc.
Lot of Daughters: Number of degrees from Moon to Venus added to Asc.
Lot of time of children: Number of degrees from Mars to Jupiter added to Asc.

None of these lots have their formula reversed for when the Sun is below the Asc/Desc axis. The first two function like the Lot of Children and can be activated in a solar return. In some instances, the Lot of Sons/Daughters may be activated instead of the Lot of Children when the native conceives or gives birth to the relevant sex.
The Lot of Time of children is different and is not activated by solar returns. Instead, aphorisms state that when Jupiter transits the degree of this Lot, sexual intercourse is more likely to lead to conception.

Claire19 10-09-2010 07:07 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia1982 (Post 238866)
Thank you for posting that!!

I calculated my Part of Children, and it conjuncts my Mercury with an orb of 4 degrees, which is in Aquarius and my 1st House. My 5th House is empty and ruled by Gemini. Is this good news of bad news?

I am not sure about Part of Children. Your Mercury rules the 5th and its aspects will give a fuller picture. An empty 5th house does not necessarily mean no children always.....I think an orb of 4 degrees would be too wide also. THe Moon has to be looked at for fertility and your partner's chart looked at too.

Claire19 10-09-2010 07:10 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr stellium (Post 239868)
It's in the main post. I'll copy and paste it here:

4. Other Lots pertaining to children
Lot of Sons: Number of degrees from Moon to Jupiter added to Asc.
Lot of Daughters: Number of degrees from Moon to Venus added to Asc.
Lot of time of children: Number of degrees from Mars to Jupiter added to Asc.

None of these lots have their formula reversed for when the Sun is below the Asc/Desc axis. The first two function like the Lot of Children and can be activated in a solar return. In some instances, the Lot of Sons/Daughters may be activated instead of the Lot of Children when the native conceives or gives birth to the relevant sex.
The Lot of Time of children is different and is not activated by solar returns. Instead, aphorisms state that when Jupiter transits the degree of this Lot, sexual intercourse is more likely to lead to conception.

I dont see the relevance with sons and Jupiter, mars more likely.
We also have to take both partners' charts into account.

dr. farr 10-09-2010 07:23 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
It is best to take the Transit Lot of Children (its Greco/Roman name from Dorotheus of Sidon-its formula as given by Mr. Stellium, above) as found in both partner's respective charts, but using one partner's chart (especially the female partner) often works pretty well.

In the Transit Lot, activation (increased chance of conception and successful childbirth) occurs:

a) during the period of time when Jupiter transits the sign the Lot is in
b) during the period of time when Jupiter transits the sign in square to the Lot (yes that's correct!)
c) during the period of time when Venus transits the sign the Lot is in
d) during the year when the natal ascendant has profected to the sign the Lot is in

...the above in descending order of likelihood of success.

Mia1982 10-09-2010 06:32 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Claire19 (Post 240011)
I am not sure about Part of Children. Your Mercury rules the 5th and its aspects will give a fuller picture. An empty 5th house does not necessarily mean no children always.....I think an orb of 4 degrees would be too wide also. THe Moon has to be looked at for fertility and your partner's chart looked at too.

I suppose with that in mind, then it's a good thing that my Mercury conjuncts my Part of Children!! I only want a small family anyway, 2, maximum 3 kids. I've also heard interpretations that Gemini ruling my 5th house makes me more likely than most to conceive twins.

I was also under the impression that a chart can be used to determine how likely someone is to end up in a partnership that produces children before menopause, not just how fertile they are.

DreamingTheSeas 10-21-2010 04:14 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
My Saturn is probably (i' m not very sure about the hour) in my 5th house, i have a child, she came a year and a half ago, when i was 40, so Saturn in 5th house worked like delay factor not prohibitory.

Snyder 11-15-2010 11:48 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
This is scary info lol,I will read more around the board.Thanks for the good post.

fushiafairy 01-09-2011 06:52 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dr. farr (Post 240022)
It is best to take the Transit Lot of Children (its Greco/Roman name from Dorotheus of Sidon-its formula as given by Mr. Stellium, above) as found in both partner's respective charts, but using one partner's chart (especially the female partner) often works pretty well.

In the Transit Lot, activation (increased chance of conception and successful childbirth) occurs:

a) during the period of time when Jupiter transits the sign the Lot is in
b) during the period of time when Jupiter transits the sign in square to the Lot (yes that's correct!)
c) during the period of time when Venus transits the sign the Lot is in
d) during the year when the natal ascendant has profected to the sign the Lot is in

...the above in descending order of likelihood of success.

Checked my charts....
my pregnancies didn't occur during any of those, but DID occur when the natal ascendant profected to the sign square or opposite the sign my Lot of children is in.
I also had aspects to the Lot occuring.

Claire19 01-10-2011 05:32 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr stellium (Post 238962)
Where is Saturn?

WHere is your Moon??? I am not sure about the Parts of Children. It may support a planetary configuration perhaps.

maheshpandit 01-17-2011 07:13 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
This is good posts for fertility astrology. But it does not look better for children astrology.

Lovebug 01-17-2011 04:09 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Did this lot of children for my mothers chart snice I already know how many kids she had. Her Lot is in Libra which is pretty good for children, the ruler is in 5th which is also a good indicator.

The counting from the lot to the ruler was inacurate. My mother barely has a few degree seperating her lot from her ruler let alone a whole sign.

I'm not sure what that author meant by quartile but My mother did have more males but the sun makes no aspect to the lot. Jupiter is also located in the lot and squares moon, I'm the only girl.

The lot is burried in the 4th house so thats a good place.
Jupiter is in opposition to Eris -she did have mutliple children, three.

I'd say this information is semi-acurate at least in my mothers case.

Also what does it mean when you have a malefic lke mars in you lot of children- trouble conceiving? Male children?

Olivia 01-17-2011 07:11 PM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Interesting article here: http://skyscript.co.uk/harris.html

dr. farr 01-18-2011 03:35 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
Note: "quartile" is the old word for square.

joyrjw 02-08-2011 08:12 AM

Re: Astrology of fertility and children
 
In equal house I have Uranus,Sun,Mars,Mercury,NN and Vertex in Scorpio in my 5th house but Libra is on the cusp....I don't have any children.

I'm married, but my husband had a procedure in his last marriage preventing him from making babies.

I've always greatly wanted children though, but for some reason it hasn't happened for me.
I'm 34 years old now.

I just wanted to post this for research purposes.
I'm not asking that anyone give me advice.
This is a good topic. :cool:
I hope this topic helps someone out there.


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