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petosiris 03-24-2019 10:36 PM

List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Planets
1. Those who say that passive and destructive elements are naturally present with beneficent planets, like the cooling quality with the Moon and Venus, and the drying quality with Jupiter.
2. Those who say that active and fertile elements are naturally present with maleficent planets, like moderate heat with Mars, or moisture with Saturn, who is most removed from the earth.
3. Those who ''observe'' fictitious heliacal appearances with ecliptical degrees, like 7, 12, 15 and the like, rather than computing their arcus visionis, and similarly those who observe days with fictitious ''appearances'' or the so-called ''cazimi''.
4. Planetary Orbs with their countless variants.
5. Outer Planets, Asteroids and similar phenomena not capable of appearance and any sizable emanation reaching the earth.
6. The Countless Lots, Midpoints and Numbers for which no natural explanation can be given.
7. Those who neglect the Ascendant of the Moon, which is found by counting the distance from the Sun to the Moon from the Ascendant both by day, and by night.
8. Those who do not observe the topocentric longitudes of the planets.

Ecliptic or Places with respect to the universe
1. Application of Northern Hemisphere systems in the Southern Hemisphere.
2. Application of Seasonal Hemispheres systems in the Equatorial Zone, without proportion.
3. Constellations.
4. Zodiacs.
5. Mansions.
6. Exaltation degrees and their steps.
7. ''Dorothean'' and Morin's triangle rulers. Likewise the arrangement of the four elements around the four winds rather than around the four seasons.
8. Egyptian and Chaldean Terms.
9. Horas, Faces, Navamsas, Dodekatemoria, Monomoiria and the countless other vargas/divisions that are devoid of reason.
10. And all the fictitious traditions that follow those, to the detriment of the system of seasonal powers, that is, predomination by house, triangle, exaltation, term and aspect.

''Houses'' or Places with respect to the nativity
1. The traditional significations of the twelve houses, oriental sorcery, which as one contemporary of Morin put it, ''he would be ridiculous who might think that these ridiculous reasons require our refutation'' (Holden translation, Book 17).
2. Planetary Joys, Chaldean Orders and the like.
3. Sign-Houses, Equal-Houses and all not time-based quadrant divisions.
4. Those who do not take an offset from the ascensions, pre-ascensions and post-ascensions, or those who do not take 1/6, but take ecliptical degrees, or those who take 1/2 (by which I mean Dorotheus and some Indians), which is ridiculous with declining degrees.
5. Those who use systems employing ''risings, settings and culminations'' with circumpolar planets and fixed stars.
6. House cusps, for anything but noting the angularity powers.

Aspects and Configurations
1. Mundane, Ascensional and other non-ecliptic Aspects which are not in harmony with the universe.
2. Minor Aspects and other ''harmonic'' non-natural fictions.
3. Those who do not take the relationship by ecliptic place, and the seasonal powers within them, that is, those who accept ''out-of-sign configurations''.
4. Those who ignore the applications and separations within 15, and those who take bodily applications and separations when planets are on different sides of the ecliptic, similarly those who accept all whole sign applications and separations regardless of degree.

Natural Timing Systems
1. Those who use oblique and latitudinal directions, and those who accept as prorogators the five wandering planets regardless, when it is obvious that their powers are aroused only by the Sun, the Moon and the angles of the nativity.
2. Those who use sidereal revolutions, rather than the topocentric returns of the Sun and the Moon for the current place of the individual, and those who do not observe the five prorogatory places within them, Ascendant, Sun, Moon, Lot of Fortune and Midheaven.
3. Those who do not observe the ingresses, or those who neglect their power in the aforementioned configurations, their applications and separations.

Fictitious Timing Systems
1. All annual, monthly, daily and hourly progressions with all their variations of progression, whether by whole sign, or by degree, or by mean, or by true motions, by tropical month, or by synodic month, or by mean fictions, or by counting days, and the like. Likewise Secondary, Tertiary and other more logical progressions, yet not as natural in principle compared with the hourly movements, solar and lunar revolutions, and the ingresses of the planets.
2. 3rd, 7th, 40th and other ''days of the Moon''.
3. Dodekatemoria/Decennials, ''Zodiacal Releasing'', 129 years, lunar quarters, the exaltation method, the monomoiria method, the nine years of the Moon method, Firdaria, Indian Dasas, and all similar methods, whether they observe fictional or seasonal years.
4. Those who observe planetary years, ascensional times and their numerological combinations, rather than natural astronomy.
5. Likewise those who divide the life into two or three parts to the triplicity rulers, or those who do not accept the sevenfold division of life as necessary.

Other
1. Those who observe the ''Aries ingress'' for the whole world, when it is not the beginning of the ecliptic in the Southern Hemisphere, nor the only one in any hemisphere, rather than following the syzygies most preceding solstices and equinoxes for each season, which is most proper and natural, like Ptolemy rightly puts forward in his second book.
2. Those who observe conjunctions of superior planets and thereby establish their universal astrology, when it is not clear what is their reasoning for that. Likewise, those who base their predictions on fictitious meridians rather than the equator, like Ptolemy in his second book.
3. Those who follow traditions and mix all planets, places and aspects, rather than conjecturing particular predictions to natural sublunar universals.
4. Horary ''Astrology'' which is sorcery, and not the science of the stars.
5. ''Electional Astrology'' which is the domain of universals and nativities, rather than of lucky days and sorcery. It is also an affront to human dignity and the beneficial internal locus of control that every free human has.
6. Relocation Astrology which too is sorcery, rather than the investigation of the interplay of the two parts, universal and genethlialogical astrology.
7. In general, everyone who does not apply the physics of the planets in relation to our sublunar biology, from which one can thereby conjecture human affairs. It is of course impossible to enumerate all non-physical methods in our field, since we can conceive such a variety and combinations of them.

petosiris 03-25-2019 12:22 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Likewise those who observe deep, fortunate, smoky and bright degrees with the tropical zodiac, while they are obviously based on the fixed stars. But we would be wise to scrutinize them even with precession, as the authors would often use non-natural or approximate methods for their projection. We would also be wise to avoid star lore, and instead investigate their influences by the method of mixture - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/1B*.html#9 .

SunConjunctUranus 03-25-2019 12:26 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Excuse me, Master petosiris. [I will delete if not important].

I don't see synastry and composite chart in your list. While those 2 concepts are really hard for me to understand how "logically" works.

Thanks.
R

petosiris 03-25-2019 12:30 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus (Post 959762)
Excuse me, Master petosiris. [I will delete if not important].

I don't see synastry and composite chart in your list. While those 2 concepts are really hard for me to understand how "logically" works.

Thanks.
R

Composite charts are indeed fictitious, but since synastry by comparison of places are based on the scientific aspects of the stars, we must employ them, and Ptolemy gives natural procedures for this in 4.5 and 4.7 of the Tetrabiblos. See http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/4B*.html#5

petosiris 03-25-2019 12:41 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
We might also add those who derive significations from the names of the planets, and from the numerology of degrees, or from the symbolism of glyphs. In the first case, the more natural names of the planets are Sun, Moon, Phainon, Phaethon, Pyroeis, Phosphoros and Stilbon, the gods of astronomy, and not of religion (Helios, Selene, Saturn/Kronos, Jupiter/Zeus, Mars/Ares, Venus/Aphrodite and Mercury/Hermes. Glyphs are Medieval and Renaissance occultist inventions, and the ancients generally used the first letters of the planets, like ''Z'' for ''Zeus'', much like one can use ''1'' for the so-called ''Aries'', by which I mean the place of the vernal equinox. I would say that the common names of the places and planets are dangerous meme-pathogens, judging by the state of modern tropical astrology.

rahu 03-25-2019 12:54 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
any astrologer that has to show his knowledge by denigrating others is a charlatan , not a astrologer

rahu

petosiris 03-25-2019 12:57 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
I would say that those who accept and teach anything without proper judgement are charlatans, or fools, rather than those who philosophize based on natural reasoning. I myself have suffered foolishness that includes most of the points above, but as Morin says, techniques like progressions for example work by pure chance, rather than consistently in accordance with nature. We might add to our list those who give extraordinary significance to the nodes, which are rationally to be taken only in the case of eclipses and the latitude of the Moon (which does influence its interpretation).

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 01:24 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959771)


I would say that those who accept and teach anything without proper judgement are charlatans,

or fools,
rather than those who philosophize based on natural reasoning.
.

Exactly

I consider myself a philosophically ignorant fool :smile:
yet I plod onwards
NIL DESPERANDUM

learning from members of our beginners learning forum

Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959771)

I myself have suffered foolishness that includes most of the points above,

but as Morin says, techniques like progressions for example work by pure chance,
rather than consistently in accordance with nature.

We might add to our list those who give extraordinary significance to the nodes,

which are rationally to be taken only in the case of eclipses
and the latitude of the Moon (which does influence its interpretation).

vis a vis the Nodes
I have observed clear, obvious effects of eclipses and the latitude of Moon

petosiris 03-25-2019 01:26 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
If one contemplates the myriad unnatural techniques, the practitioner who is keen on natural knowledge may thereby work towards a systematic tree of knowledge, the hallmark of every certain science. I don't think anyone has achieved that, but the person who has most developed our natural subject, is Claudius Ptolemy - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html

He mostly avoided constellational forms and topical house considerations, though he was not infallible and employed the first from time to time, and the latter in two places, on injury (3.12) and on slaves (4.7). One place where I agree with Morin is 4.10, where he describes profections (his type were even more idealized than the Renaissance astrologers imagined, it was by whole-sign), this too is unreasonable. In my list above I mention the fanciful placement of countries on the ecliptic by winds from the fictitious Prime Meridian (his one was close to Ferro, not Greenwich). His astrology on the human races by equatorial placement is also mistaken, as evidenced by the modern psychometric measurement of intelligence of countries. One can be in doubts with the numerical significance of the ages, but not by their actual meanings by approximation. With the remainder of his work, I can hardly find anything unreasonable.

SunConjunctUranus 03-25-2019 01:33 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959763)
Composite charts are indeed fictitious, but since synastry by comparison of places are based on the scientific aspects of the stars, we must employ them, and Ptolemy gives natural procedures for this in 4.5 and 4.7 of the Tetrabiblos. See http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/4B*.html#5

Master petosiris,

I just wish to elaborate little bit on this. It's obvious that you're extensively using 2 lots; lot of fortune & lot of daimon. So, do you think that both of these 2 lots are having any importance in synastry?

Thank you
R

petosiris 03-25-2019 01:38 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus (Post 959777)
Master petosiris,

I just wish to elaborate little bit on this. It's obvious that you're extensively using 2 lots; lot of fortune & lot of daimon. So, do you think that both of these 2 lots are having any importance in synastry?

Thank you
R

What about you read 4.5 and 4.7 in the link I've given you and then ask me question?

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 01:43 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959776)


If one contemplates the myriad unnatural techniques, the practitioner who is keen on natural knowledge may thereby work towards a systematic tree of knowledge, the hallmark of every certain science.
I don't think anyone has achieved that,

If anyone has achieved that, they are not posting their results on our forum :smile:
unless on some obscure unnoticed thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959776)



but the person who has most developed our natural subject, is Claudius Ptolemy - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html


He mostly avoided constellational forms and topical house considerations, though he was not infallible and employed the first from time to time, and the latter in two places, on injury (3.12) and on slaves (4.7). One place where I agree with Morin is 4.10, where he describes profections (his type were even more idealized than the Renaissance astrologers imagined, it was by whole-sign).

Thank you for these insights

Oddity 03-25-2019 01:43 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.

But...Rahu's right about this. Your creed as to what you study is fine, but when you throw in all the insults to people who don't believe the way that you do, all you're doing is denigrating and insulting. Which means it's just showing how much better you think you are than others, and will not inspire people to listen to your actual message. Unless, of course, that is your actual message.

If you have something to say about astrology that you want other people to hear and maybe think about, leave out the insults.

Odds

petosiris 03-25-2019 01:48 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

''We shall sketch each of these subjects briefly, explaining, as we said before, together with the effective powers by themselves, the actual procedure of investigation; as for the nonsense on which many waste their labour and of which not even a plausible account can be given, this we shall dismiss in favour of the primary natural causes. What, however, admits of prediction we shall investigate, not by means of lots and numbers of which no reasonable explanation can be given, but merely through the science of the aspects of the stars to the places with which they have familiarity'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/3A*.html#3
Ptolemy calls considerable work of his contemporaries to be ''waste of labour''. Every scientific advancement is done by treason!

petosiris 03-25-2019 01:54 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959782)
It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.

But...Rahu's right about this. Your creed as to what you study is fine, but when you throw in all the insults to people who don't believe the way that you do, all you're doing is denigrating and insulting. Which means it's just showing how much better you think you are than others, and will not inspire people to listen to your actual message. Unless, of course, that is your actual message.

If you have something to say about astrology that you want other people to hear and maybe think about, leave out the insults.

Odds

No, I do not see anything denigrating and insulting, or thinking that I am better than the ''others''. I am just more judgemental of our ''traditional'' approach, just as your typical traditional astrologer is more judgemental of outers and the like. I will stand by my belief that horary astrology is sorcery, so did many other astrologers, you are of course free to disagree with the Ptolemaic view of natural subjects that are capable of investigation, or the Medieval separation of judicial and natural astrology.

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 01:57 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rahu (Post 959770)


any astrologer that has to show his knowledge by denigrating others is a charlatan , not a astrologer

rahu

And that criticism

applies equally to all members posting on all boards of our forum :smile:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959782)

It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.

But...Rahu's right about this. Your creed as to what you study is fine, but when you throw in all the insults to people who don't believe the way that you do, all you're doing is denigrating and insulting. Which means it's just showing how much better you think you are than others, and will not inspire people to listen to your actual message. Unless, of course, that is your actual message.

If you have something to say about astrology that you want other people to hear and maybe think about, leave out the insults.

Odds

and yet our forum is replete with disagreeing members :smile:
as evidenced by comments now gone
frequently deleted by moderators
even rahus signature advises us
and I quote:
"if you find a post significant, copy it as my post are being deleted and altered."
obviously only moderators or the OP may delete or alter any members posts

obviously politeness is essential

Oddity 03-25-2019 02:00 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
That's fine. Just don't expect anyone to change their mind because of what you say.

You've got a weak case when you need to insult people (under the guise of 'criticism') to make your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959786)
No, I do not see anything denigrating and insulting, or thinking that I am better than the ''others''. I am just more judgemental of our ''traditional'' approach, just as your typical traditional astrologer is more judgemental of outers and the like. I will stand by my belief that horary astrology is sorcery, so did many other astrologers, you are of course free to disagree with the Ptolemaic view of natural subjects that are capable of investigation, or the Medieval separation of judicial and natural astrology.


JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 02:00 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959786)

No, I do not see anything denigrating and insulting, or thinking that I am better than the ''others''.
I am just more judgemental of our ''traditional'' approach, just as
your typical traditional astrologer is more judgemental of outers and the like.
I will stand by my belief that horary astrology is sorcery, so did many other astrologers,
you are of course free to disagree with the Ptolemaic view of natural subjects
that are capable of investigation, or the Medieval separation of judicial and natural astrology.

One tends to agree with that perspective
because
certainly
it seems that some appear more sensitive than others
therefore
moderation is perhaps advised
we are all entitled to our different perspectives nevertheless
clearly
one is entitled to ones opinion
so long as ones opinion does not infringe forum rules :smile:

petosiris 03-25-2019 02:02 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959791)
That's fine. Just don't expect anyone to change their mind because of what you say.

You've got a weak case when you need to insult people (under the guise of 'criticism') to make your point.

Have you ever found an astrologer who agrees with another?

petosiris 03-25-2019 02:03 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC (Post 959792)
One tends to agree with that perspective
because
certainly
it seems that some appear more sensitive than others
therefore
moderation is perhaps advised
we are all entitled to our different perspectives nevertheless
clearly
one is entitled to ones opinion
so long as ones opinion does not infringe forum rules :smile:

It's a hot topic in the hot topic arena.

Oddity 03-25-2019 02:05 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Oh, hell, I disagree with lots of people about lots of things. But when, say, I'm arguing why the outer planets, asteroids, etc. don't count, I state my argument against the idea that they do, I don't call people idiots for disagreeing with me.

Strangely enough, it actually works sometimes. Calling people idiots - not gonna work. Ever. At least not if you're hoping to engage in a discussion about ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959793)
Have you ever found an astrologer who agrees with another?


JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 02:05 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959791)


That's fine. Just don't expect anyone to change their mind because of what you say.
You've got a weak case when you need to insult people

(under the guise of 'criticism') to make your point.

Whether a comment "is under the guise of criticism" or not
is obviously a matter of personal oppinion
since the intent of the commenter
may have been misunderstood :smile:

of course we could outlaw any form of criticism whatsoever
but that seems unnecessarily extreme

petosiris 03-25-2019 02:07 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959795)
Oh, hell, I disagree with lots of people about lots of things. But when, say, I'm arguing why the outer planets, asteroids, etc. don't count, I state my argument against the idea that they do, I don't call people idiots for disagreeing with me.

Strangely enough, it actually works sometimes. Calling people idiots - not gonna work. Ever. At least not if you're hoping to engage in a discussion about ideas.

I have not used the word idiot, though I quoted Morinus and his contemporary astrologers using the words ''ridiculous'' or ''Arabic sorcery'' and Ptolemy using the words ''waste of labour'' which you might see similar. If they are using it, I guess it's common and traditional. Sometimes offending feelings is inevitable, I was offended by their remarks few months ago too. But now I understand that they were not with bad intentions at all, and I am thankful. I guess it does work in changing minds sometimes. I am 6.9 atheist, but I don't see how that can detract from my arguments.

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 02:12 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959795)


Oh, hell, I disagree with lots of people about lots of things. But when, say, I'm arguing why the outer planets, asteroids, etc. don't count, I state my argument against the idea that they do, I don't call people idiots for disagreeing with me.
Strangely enough, it actually works sometimes. Calling people idiots - not gonna work.
Ever.
At least not if you're hoping to engage in a discussion about ideas.

I'm fine with being called an idiot
in fact I tend to agree with anyone who calls me an idiot
but then
we all have different perspectives :smile:
It's not unusual to hear others referring to all and sundry as "idiots"
it's common in fact

petosiris 03-25-2019 02:13 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
I am grateful for Ptolemy calling my months of labour on lots ''waste of time'', and I am grateful for Morinus telling I was using ''fictitious'' systems. I actually was an idiot, but now my vision is clear.

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 02:17 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959794)

It's a hot topic in the hot topic arena.


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...96/364/f71.gif

Oddity 03-25-2019 02:17 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Hey, in case I didn't make it clear I think your ideas for an atheistic astrology are top-notch. It's your presentation that wants a bit of work.

Don't listen to Morin when it comes to social graces. Please. And no, his twelfth house is not an excuse!

Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959798)
I have not used the word idiot, though I quoted Morinus and his contemporary astrologers using the words ''ridiculous'' or ''Arabic sorcery'' and Ptolemy using the words ''waste of labour'' which you might see similar. If they are using it, I guess it's common and traditional. Sometimes offending feelings is inevitable, I was offended by their remarks few months ago too. But now I understand that they were not with bad intentions at all, and I am thankful. I guess it does work in changing minds sometimes. I am 6.9 atheist, but I don't see how that can detract from my arguments.


JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 02:22 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959802)


I am grateful for Ptolemy calling my months of labour on lots ''waste of time'', and

there was probably some use to it nevertheless

Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959802)


I am grateful for Morinus telling I was using ''fictitious'' systems.
I actually was an idiot, but now my vision is clear.

I'm still an idiot

but

may recover at any time :smile:
and I'm Siriusly grateful for this interesting discussion

SunConjunctUranus 03-25-2019 02:29 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959802)
I am grateful for Ptolemy calling my months of labour on lots ''waste of time'', and I am grateful for Morinus telling I was using ''fictitious'' systems. I actually was an idiot, but now my vision is clear.

I'm glad that Master petosiris still log in to this site and teaching an idot like me :smile:

Edit: BTW, all of this are gratitously FREE.

petosiris 03-25-2019 02:34 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Need some time to write the communist manifesto as a member of the proletariat myself, need to work on my manners for the same reason.

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 02:37 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959805)


Hey, in case I didn't make it clear I think your ideas for an atheistic astrology are top-notch.

It's your presentation that wants a bit of work.

You got a B plus - more work needed :smile:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959805)


Don't listen to Morin when it comes to social graces. Please.

And no, his twelfth house is not an excuse!

Interestingly I picked up one of Morinus books today

but I did not have time to read it

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Iy33...RO2A/giphy.gif

petosiris 03-25-2019 02:39 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
There are some things I enjoy in him, particularly his style, but I think many of his theories, particularly dignity, are based on misunderstanding of Ptolemy, also mainly that he criticizes the usage of ''universal significators'' by Ptolemy, and instead he brings mostly traditional significations of houses.

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 02:48 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus (Post 959810)

Edit: BTW, all of this are gratitously FREE.

Siriusly FREE??????????? :smile:
ironically freebies are mostly unappreciated

petosiris 03-25-2019 04:46 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959805)
Hey, in case I didn't make it clear I think your ideas for an atheistic astrology are top-notch. It's your presentation that wants a bit of work.

And I also want to thank you for your Jewish remarks, they are as expected!

waybread 03-25-2019 05:20 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Oddity, I think Petosiris just wants to be provocative.

Must be a tough Uranus transit for him, or something.

unique_astrology 03-25-2019 06:28 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Everything in astrology is just someone's opinion, nothing more. Certainly not based on a study of millions of charts by any individual and verified by an absolutely flawless record of prognostication.

And any opinions from practitioners of old, when life expectancy was far shorter than today, travel in a lifetime was far more limited, means of exchanging of ideas and study was far more limited because of that limited travel (including for correspondences), have no logical reason to be taken as absolute gospel. Not by any of them.

petosiris 03-25-2019 09:57 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waybread (Post 959845)
Oddity, I think Petosiris just wants to be provocative.

Must be a tough Uranus transit for him, or something.

Easy for you to say, you are Jewish astrologer too! It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer.

But I wonder, waybread, do you even believe there is even one astrological technique that is real/physical/scientific?

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 11:34 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waybread (Post 959845)


Must be a tough Uranus transit for him, or something.


There can be no other explanation :smile:

JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 11:38 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by unique_astrology (Post 959857)

Everything in astrology is just someone's opinion, nothing more.
Certainly not based on a study of millions of charts by any individual

and verified by an absolutely flawless record of prognostication.
And any opinions from practitioners of old, when life expectancy was far shorter than today,
travel in a lifetime was far more limited, means of exchanging of ideas and study
was far more limited because of that limited travel
(including for correspondences), have no logical reason
to be taken as absolute gospel.
Not by any of them.

And that mon ami is yet another opinion with which astrology abounds

because

as you yourself just mentioned :smile:
and I quote
Quote:

Originally Posted by unique_astrology (Post 959857)

Everything in astrology is just someone's opinion, nothing more.


JUPITERASC 03-25-2019 11:50 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959782)

It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but
I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.

Oddity highlighting individual belief systems

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddity (Post 959805)

Hey, in case I didn't make it clear
I think

your ideas for an atheistic astrology are top-notch.

It's your presentation that wants a bit of work.

resounding praise indeed
Quote:

Originally Posted by waybread (Post 959845)

Oddity, I think Petosiris just wants to be provocative.
Must be a tough Uranus transit for him, or something.

WB you misunderstood
if you read the whole thread
notice that
Oddity and petosiris merely exchanging banter :smile:
perhaps your own outers need checking vis a vis transits
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959841)

And I also want to thank you for your Jewish remarks, they are as expected!

quite - those with different beliefs

are obviously not usually in agreement
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959885)

Easy for you to say, you are Jewish astrologer too!
It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer.
But I wonder, waybread, do you even believe there is even one astrological technique
that is real/physical/scientific?

an excellent question

petosiris 03-25-2019 05:52 PM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

In the latter capacity in 1983, Curry and four other UK astrologer/academics privately published a series of theoretical papers utilizing phenomenology, structuralism, linguistics, psychoanalysis, Marxist thought, modern physics and feminist critical theory to explore astrological theory and practice. Curry’s own paper, An Aporia for Astrology, deserves a larger audience, since it is one of the first serious attempts to devise a taxonomic classification of modern astrological thought. Adopting a strategy analogous to Michel Foucault’s “epistemes”, Curry located divinatory astrology within the camp of Hermeneutic Astrology, which he characterized as being “a way of preserving and developing a ‘magical’ attitude, at a time and in a society that is hostile to such an attitude. Such an attitude is identified with the kind of mystical experience described in mystical and religious literature, and in Heidegger’s philosophy.” - http://www.astrozero.co.uk/articles/...gtheMoment.pdf
I think I almost got a heart attack, though it is interesting to read about the Cornelius camp. In any case, the causal conceptualization of astrology is most definitely not Ptolemaic, with abundance of evidence of it in Dorotheus, Manetho or Pliny the Elder. The list I can go through is much, although for a summary of this topic, I recommend page 146 of Chris Brennan's book.

waybread 03-26-2019 05:00 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 959885)
Easy for you to say, you are Jewish astrologer too! It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer.

But I wonder, waybread, do you even believe there is even one astrological technique that is real/physical/scientific?

I was raised in a non-sectarian nominally Protestant home by parents who called themselves "free thinkers." I converted to Judaism in 1974, because it mattered to my Jewish ex-husband. I was involved in Judaism for 20 years, but let go of it when we separated and divorced. I have never renounced Judaism but have been non-practicing for a long time. I am not an atheist but I do not believe in the anthropomorphism of deities in most of the world's religion.

It is difficult to make a case for an objectively real/physical/scientific basis for astrology. For sure, we deal with empirical stuff: an ephemeris, Arabic part calculations, aspects, and so on. But what is this based on? The Mesopotamians believed that the planets were gods, or omens from the gods. Sure, they wrote down all kinds of planetary observations; but fundamentally Nergal (Mars) brought warfare and drought-- not as a prediction based upon those observations-- but because this was the god Nergal's nature. The personalities of the Mesopotamian gods preceded astrology.

This is what the Hellenists adopted, along with Egyptian solar deity beliefs.

Our fave Ptolemy had as his main project getting astrology on a "rational" Aristotelian proto-scientific basis. Valens had as his main project anthologizing a lot of disparate astrological materials in a way that could help the fledgling astrologer read actual horoscopes for actual people. But their efforts followed centuries of star-gazing as an essentially religious endeavor. So whatever else these two did, they had to incorporate much of this religiously-inspired Deposit of Faith.

If today we interpret the planet Mercury as ruling liars and thieves, it is because this was the nature of the young god, mythological Mercury. If the planet Venus rules sexual love, it is because this was her nature as a goddess. The religious mythology predated the introduction of astrology into ancient Greece.

Anciently some astrologers prayed to a god (notably Mercury) to help them with their chart reading. Lilly similarly prayed to the Christian God.

Are you familiar with Geoffrey Cornelius, The Moment of Astrology? He discussed the problem of the wrong chart nevertheless yielding a correct answer. He sees astrology as a form of divination.

What about Under One Sky, by Rafael Nasser? He asked 12 astrologers coming from different schools of astrology to read the same "blind" chart. The chart native, an American woman, contributed an autobiographical article, which none of the astrologers read ahead of time. Schmidt, the Hellenist, sort of scrubbed out by not actually reading the chart. The most accurate readings were by Demetra George-- using asteroids!!--and the Vedic astrologer.

A horoscope interpretation takes place in the subjective mind of the astrologer. We follow rules, but these are often not the same ones between astrologers of different schools.

If your preferred traditional methods worked so well, why on earth would a sensible astrologer who came later wish to change or improve upon them?

petosiris 03-26-2019 06:07 AM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
I guess not...

JUPITERASC 03-26-2019 01:23 PM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waybread (Post 960115)


I don't have the authority to delete your posts.
That's up to you or the mods.

thanks for the clarification :smile:

Quote:

Originally Posted by waybread (Post 960114)


I was raised in a non-sectarian nominally Protestant home by parents who called themselves "free thinkers." I converted to Judaism in 1974, because it mattered to my Jewish ex-husband. I was involved in Judaism for 20 years, but let go of it when we separated and divorced. I have never renounced Judaism but have been non-practicing for a long time. I am not an atheist but I do not believe in the anthropomorphism of deities in most of the world's religion.

It is difficult to make a case for an objectively real/physical/scientific basis for astrology. For sure, we deal with empirical stuff: an ephemeris, Arabic part calculations, aspects, and so on. But what is this based on? The Mesopotamians believed that the planets were gods, or omens from the gods. Sure, they wrote down all kinds of planetary observations; but fundamentally Nergal (Mars) brought warfare and drought-- not as a prediction based upon those observations-- but because this was the god Nergal's nature. The personalities of the Mesopotamian gods preceded astrology.

This is what the Hellenists adopted, along with Egyptian solar deity beliefs.

Our fave Ptolemy had as his main project getting astrology on a "rational" Aristotelian proto-scientific basis. Valens had as his main project anthologizing a lot of disparate astrological materials in a way that could help the fledgling astrologer read actual horoscopes for actual people. But their efforts followed centuries of star-gazing as an essentially religious endeavor. So whatever else these two did, they had to incorporate much of this religiously-inspired Deposit of Faith.

If today we interpret the planet Mercury as ruling liars and thieves, it is because this was the nature of the young god, mythological Mercury. If the planet Venus rules sexual love, it is because this was her nature as a goddess. The religious mythology predated the introduction of astrology into ancient Greece.

Anciently some astrologers prayed to a god (notably Mercury) to help them with their chart reading. Lilly similarly prayed to the Christian God.

Are you familiar with Geoffrey Cornelius, The Moment of Astrology? He discussed the problem of the wrong chart nevertheless yielding a correct answer. He sees astrology as a form of divination.

What about Under One Sky, by Rafael Nasser? He asked 12 astrologers coming from different schools of astrology to read the same "blind" chart. The chart native, an American woman, contributed an autobiographical article, which none of the astrologers read ahead of time. Schmidt, the Hellenist, sort of scrubbed out by not actually reading the chart. The most accurate readings were by Demetra George-- using asteroids!!--and the Vedic astrologer.

A horoscope interpretation takes place in the subjective mind of the astrologer. We follow rules, but these are often not the same ones between astrologers of different schools.

If your preferred traditional methods worked so well, why on earth would a sensible astrologer who came later wish to change or improve upon them?


Dirius 03-26-2019 02:33 PM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Lets see:

Your current claim (or Morin's) about astrology is to look at it from a rational scientific perspective, while employing an atheistic view of the unvirse and look at the physical influence of the planets in our biological human affairs. But then you (or Morin) call horary "sorcery", which by definition mean its a technique used by employing the invocation of some mystic divine being to forsee the future, and thus presenting a case for the supernatural?

Doesn't make much sense. Unless of course you are using the word "sorcery" just as a simple construction to demean the technique, by implying horary does not work. Which is it?

petosiris 03-26-2019 02:55 PM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirius (Post 960173)
Lets see:

Your current claim (or Morin's) about astrology is to look at it from a rational scientific perspective, while employing an atheistic view of the unvirse and look at the physical influence of the planets in our biological human affairs. But then you (or Morin) call horary "sorcery", which by definition mean its a technique used by employing the invocation of some mystic divine being to forsee the future, and thus presenting a case for the supernatural?

Doesn't make much sense. Unless of course you are using the word "sorcery" just as a simple construction to demean the technique, by implying horary does not work. Which is it?

Where did I say it does not work? No, I did not, I am just saying there has never been founded argument for its mechanism, just as there is no one for reading liver entrails or augury. To many astrologers, it didn't seem right to classify astrology with these fields of ''divination''.

petosiris 03-26-2019 03:03 PM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Here is the opinion of one religious thinker and notable astrologer, Al-Biruni of horary:

''Here astrology reaches a point which threatens to transgress its proper limits, where problems are submitted which it is impossible to solve for the most part, and where the matter leaves the solid basis of universals for particulars. Where this boundary is passed, where the astrologer is one side and the sorcerer on the other, you enter a field of omens and divinations which has nothing to do with astrology, although the stars may be referred to in connection to them.'' - Lewis, J. R. (2003). The astrology book: the encyclopedia of heavenly influences. Visible Ink Press.

petosiris 03-26-2019 03:11 PM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
As far as I can tell, Morinus constantly refers to the Bible and occultism in his work. However, as far as I can tell Ptolemy does not make a single argument involving such, and to the extent that his hypothesis are natural and capable of investigation, they deserve our attention. And though the four qualities do not constitute the material basis of the world as he thought, they do still persist in the atmosphere to heavily affect human affairs. Of course, it could be proven that they are wrong, for if you compare the two other scientific fields of Ptolemy, astronomy and geography, they had progress and advancement that is myriad-fold, but astrology, mostly zero.

Dirius 03-26-2019 03:28 PM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 960177)
Where did I say it does not work? No, I did not, I am just saying there has never been founded argument for its mechanism, just as there is no one for reading liver entrails or augury. To many astrologers, it didn't seem right to classify astrology with these fields of ''divination''.

Just trying to get a picture of the intention behind your post, which was in part to bring foward the discussion about Morin's ideas (which to be honest is about time we have it), so just trying to see how much of what you wrote was playing devil's advocate.

Well the argument has always been that questions are created at a certain time for a specific purpose and thus a chart can be drawn for them. In the similar manner that elective is used to create a specific event. Aren't those functionally similar?

Dirius 03-26-2019 03:36 PM

Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by petosiris (Post 960179)
Here is the opinion of one religious thinker and notable astrologer, Al-Biruni of horary:

''Here astrology reaches a point which threatens to transgress its proper limits, where problems are submitted which it is impossible to solve for the most part, and where the matter leaves the solid basis of universals for particulars. Where this boundary is passed, where the astrologer is one side and the sorcerer on the other, you enter a field of omens and divinations which has nothing to do with astrology, although the stars may be referred to in connection to them.'' - Lewis, J. R. (2003). The astrology book: the encyclopedia of heavenly influences. Visible Ink Press.

But Al-biruni is limited by the religious element of his time. It is not uncommon given divination was banned in the religion/empire of his time, and while astrology was permitted as the study of the influence of the planets, most techniques concerned with astrology were not about divination.


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