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kx5 05-09-2015 11:00 AM

The 12th house paradox?
For all I've been looking into it, I find it very difficult to truly grasp the meaning of the 12th house. Other praise it as the house of the person's true sensitive nature and soul, whereas others consider it to be a very sophisticated hellhole, full of the person's obsessions and secrets. I myself have a very strong 12th house (Mars/Venus conjunction in Sagittarius in the 12th, to mention one of the things that are going on in there), but have failed to understand its impact on my life. I do realise it causes quite some emotional stirring occassionally, but I can't eventually tell whether its influence is positive or negative, considering that I've embraced every aspect of my personality and would have no problem putting up with myself even if I was a 'worse' person than what I am currently.

At the same time, the correlation of the 12th house with Pisces-Neptune puzzles me. We know Pisces and Neptune generally are considered to be elements that provide one with an artistic flare, intuition, empathy, and all things spiritual. When we meet a person with a predominant Pisces personality, we usually think that they're gentle, empathic, sensitive to the energies of their surroundings, even religious maybe, and at their worst, a little quiet and passive. The fact that they're being ruled by the 12th house, the 'nightmare' of the entire chart, never comes to mind. Most proficient artists often have a strong Neptune as well, and make beautiful music, paintings, sculptures etc with lots of depth to them... You wouldn't imagine that this beauty is related to the dark, murky place the 12th house is.

Considering these questions, it was easy at some point for me to dismiss the negative 12th house allegations, and try to see its positive side, the one that imbues natives with great talent and appreciation of the world around them. However, over time, my own 12th house nature did seem to bring about certain difficulties and mishaps that I could not similarly dismiss.

If your perception of the 12th house is more 'solid' than mine, I'd love to hear your opinion.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

lif3siz3p4p3rd011 07-26-2019 06:51 AM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
I don't consider my interpretation or anyone else's interpretation more solid than others, personally I feel like there is truth in every interpretation.

Personally from what I've witnessed and studied a fully developed 12th house would be someone extremely talented in the psychic field, living constructively via helping others and always a bit on both sides of the veil at the same time. Jupiter was the Original ruler of Pisces, so I usually take the secondary rulers as complimentary.

At worst, a strong Pisces 12th house would be someone extremely manipulative, deceptive, and unbalanced.

With that being said, I also think there's 2 sides of the scale for each sign, house, and planet. How it is expressed depends on the individual and their level of self awareness.

waybread 07-26-2019 07:43 AM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
Traditionally the 12th house was the "house of the bad spirit," the astro-dumpster of all kinds of rotten stuff. Partly this was because the good or bad nature of a house was related to its major aspect with the first house, meaning that a house stood in a sextile, square, trine, or opposition to the first house. The 3 that got left out were the "inconjunct" houses: the 12th, the 8th, and the 6th. These all got a bad rap: the 8th as the house of death; the 6th as the house of illnesses.

Note that astrology consists of a lot more than just natal astrology and its derivatives. A lot of meanings of the 12th house today relate to its use in horary astrology, where the 12th wasn't always negative. It might mean anything from large animals to hospitals.

Modern astrology came along, and noted that some influential spiritual leaders had a strong 12th house. From that came the interpretation that the 12th was the house of spirituality. I think this also relates to the Hindu idea that one can find release by letting go and facing 12th house difficulties with equanimity.

Today I view the natal 12th house as the one where altruism best plays out. In this house of "self-undoing" it can be difficult to maintain a firm sense of identity. So it works best to identify with a cause or group bigger than oneself, and to work toward their betterment.

I don't like to conflate planets, signs, and houses, because I think they have different meanings and functions.

Drsendero 07-26-2019 05:43 PM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
I'd like to add that the 12th house also represents things that are hidden, secret, or private. It can also represent things that are poorly understood or hard to see, so it can represent things that a person can't easily see in themselves. This can explain why you're having a hard time figuring out your 12th house placements.

I'll second Waybread's caution about equating a house with a sign and a planet. The 12th is NOT the same as Pisces or Neptune, they're different, as you've noticed. Sure, in some cases there can be some affinity, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing. I'd disregard any interpretations that attempt to conflate the signs, houses, and planets.

helike13 07-27-2019 03:55 PM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
I have a H12 Sun in Gemini.

I can't put a price tag on myself. I don't know the real value of myself. If you ask me who I am I can't really answer that question. I only have clues about my traits and value mostly based on the opinion of people who surround me but it's blurry, unclear and contradictory.

I have Moon (Cancer) and Venus (Gemini) in H12.

If you ask me what makes me happy I probably won't be able to answer your question properly. I have hobbies that 'I think' make me happy but on a larger scale they rather feel like a burden.

So it's a pain if you have personal planets in H12 :(

IleneK 07-27-2019 04:34 PM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
I agree with Waybread that one ought not conflate the planets, signs and houses. They all function in different ways.
As to the 12th house, psychological astrologer, Karen Hamaker-Zontag describes the 12th as the house of the collective unconscious. And its opposite, the 6th, as the collective conscious. She also suggests that the 8th is the house of the personal unconscious and the 2nd is the person conscious.

The reason that the contents of both the 8th and the 12th are difficult to access is because they are unconscious. The reason why the 12th may be more associated with our undoing is that not only is it the domain of the unconscious, which is challenging enough on its own, but also that unconscious content is not just from your personal consciousness. It also contains the consciousness of the collective, of all human being at this time.

So it's a mysterious place and not one to be understood. Perhaps it is more a place for one to be aware of. To watch relevant contacts to bodies in that house and then to journal, take note, and see is you can create a portrait over time of what your 12th house looks like, how it flows and acts through you. And also to be at ease about it and trust the inherent goodness in you to guide you. Remember, we all have a 12th house in our chart, and a ruler of the 12th, and aspects to the 12th house ruler. We are all subject to the 12th house's role in our makeup, in our lives.

passiflora 07-30-2019 01:59 AM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
Much that is negative has been written about cadent houses in general (weak, ineffective, etc.) and the 12th house in particular. I think it could turn a lot of people off traditional astrology to see this, in fact it did turn me off in this way.

I think some of it is the discrepancy between material that belongs to the collective unconscious, and the house of YOUR unconscious. We can call it psychic when to us it is just obvious. It is not obvious to everyone else so the others may mock 12th house people.

George W. Bush is an interesting example. He has H12 Sun and Saturn. I believe he was a terrible president from a policy perspective because I disagree with the politics of polarization, hatred, warfare, and earth-destruction. But he was certainly relatable to the people who voted for him, remarkably so for someone of his privilege. He was also easy to mock for various reasons. However, considering all the "weakness" and "inability to perform" given to H12 by traditional astrologers, you might not expect him to become president at all.

This is my favorite article on H12.

waybread 07-31-2019 04:21 AM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
A surprising number of political leaders have a 12th house sun. I think their strategy is to identify with a cause or a constituency greater than themselves.

passiflora 07-31-2019 04:36 AM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
In the case of George Bush I wonder if he could help it. He was steeped in that world and became the one to sacrifice for the good of the oil industry, his father's rich and powerful friends, and the military industries. I wonder if this might be why it's called the house of self-undoing -- the prenatal experience is so strong, puts you so deeply in touch with what others collectively are pushing for, that you can not articulate an independent stance without damaging yourself in some way. People might try to escape this fated position through substance abuse.

He was born in New Haven, his grandfather was a Senator, it is a small and very obviously elite town with all the openly secret societies of Yale.

Prenatal experience could be reinforced by childhood and other experiences. Here is an interesting note:

three M symbols 08-01-2019 09:33 AM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
12th house in the derivative house system can be seen as the « 2nd house of the 11th ». (ressources earned from a group of people (like a city, or a state, etc..)

three M symbols 08-01-2019 09:30 PM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
I have Mercury and North Node in 12th house, so, this is how I see it : (But I could make some mistakes or confusions)

People with 12th house placements can sometimes experience hidden things :

strong intuition for some of them, abilities to predict some events that will happen (the idea could just pop on your mind without asking any question). I also predicted events about myself at an early age. I have a kind of knowledge since my childhood. Abilities to know some lines of my fate instinctively (but not all). Like if I already lived all my life or created the plan before my birth. The bad side is that all thoses images are not good.
Mercury here also give the ability to see a lot of synchronicities. Like, « this event happened because of this event, which happened because of this event, which happened because of this, etc.. »

Other 12th houses things could be related to nightdreams, sleep (because of the inconscious state). Addictions as an escapness purpose. (sleep addiction, or drugs & alcohol, films & series, spirituality, music, affective dependencies, etc..)

People often said that I give good emotional advices, but on other subjects, that I lack rationality and logic.. It's weird because I'm a double Virgo Sun & Moon. All seems 100 % logical for me

Otherwise, I always had a strong need of finding a purpose about why i'm alive.
Without spirituality or this kind of beliefs, I was pessimistic as a child, then depressive, lacking energy for long years. Laying on my bed for days because I didn't wanted to wake up. Life seemed so aburd. (still the case but I can bear it now)

At 20yo, Astrology gave me enough proofs to have faith and it saved me from depression. I now accept the concept of life, even if it's still hard.

Other 12th house traits (more related to North Node 12th house return, in my case):

- I did a burn out because of 6th house Aries. (caring for my goals but not of my health). So, I left my plans, my studies, status..
- Then, I experienced mental health struggles of all kinds in 12th house. (phobias, sleeping issues, addictions, depression got worse, starting to have anxiety, things that I hadn't really experienced before) Consequence : exile, isolation, shame of « undoing » (having no job or studies, unability to do it) that made me stop to see friends, and lost a lot of things. I thought and think so much that I'm loosing my ego, my martian traits and a lot of the things that interested me before. My will is fading, even if my mental health is better than ever. I can't find a place or thing I can really feel to belongs to.
-Difficulties to relate with a lot of people & things (Libra is the sign of my 12th House, Mercury and North Node too)
-My empathy is the result of a learning process. I have a very indivualistic chart and wasn't born with empathy. I despised a lot of things in the past. When I was young I didn't cared for the people needs, suffering and interests. I had all abundance and I fcked up. I had a bad influence on people. Now I'm paying my Karma.

12th house is the 5th of the 8th.

Other things (that I've read for the main part), about 12th house:

Magic of all forms. (9th house represents the institutions of religion, spirituality as something with moral, a defined way,physical travel, defined cultures, etc..). 12th house is the link between spiritualities of all kinds.. Like astrology, tarot cards, numerology, gemstones, runes and sigils, chaos magic, your normal thoughts that can have a magic influence, synchronicities, imagination, divine help, religion, all symbolic things (like semantics, nightdreams, etc..), some people also can communicate with spirits of dead people. 12th house represents the power of your inconscious and subconscious. (behind your ASC you have hidden powers that you don't even know). But in a way,1st house is the 2nd house of the 12th.

midwifes, fishermans, prayers, hospices and hospitals, prisons, deepness of the oceans, of the universe, physical chronic health issues, mental health, convents, medicine things (painkillers, anesthesia or things that alter consciousness). End of life, melancholy, Big animals, feets and lymphatic system, nightdreams, intra uterine life, astral projections or all kinds of spiritual travels (into emotions no matter the way), arts like poetry, music, dance, cinema, photography, writing (hidden communication form)... god, the source or the overall. Before and after death. Emotions of the end of life. Seing your life from an exterior point of view, or from a very deep interior point of view where you can see a lot of connexions but feel cuted of the world. Scientific theories that calls a weird imagination to resolve an unknown problem (like astronomy). Creativity. Bindings to the hidden things or issues linked to unconscious. To lose the sens of reality. Metaphysical questions. Irresponsability. Interests for psychology, spirituality, imagination, dreams and illusions. Karmic bill. Exile, isolation, retreat chosen or not. To get rid of unnecessary things (and necessary things too).

!4C 08-14-2019 04:21 AM

Re: The 12th house paradox?
"You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."

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