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-   -   Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart (https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123493)

Cary2 04-12-2019 06:58 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964341)
Would Saturn represent father-issues?

Quite possibly. I consider the Capricorn/Cancer axis as a parental axis first. I believe the Tenth House, and by correspondence Capricorn, is the critical parent rather than the nuturing parent (Cancer). Sometimes the critical parent is the mother, though most of the time the father is the critical parent. Both roles are supportive of the offspring. This reflects the contradiction in theory about which house personifies the father.

In a single-parent family, it gets ambiguous.

david starling 04-12-2019 07:10 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
One last question on this situation: Who's Pluto? What's Pluto's role in the combination of the 3?

Cary2 04-12-2019 07:18 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964353)
One last question on this situation: Who's Pluto? What's Pluto's role in the combination of the 3?

That addresses the difference of me being a Modern astrologer rather than a Conventional astrologer (most I've met are Conventional). The planetary combination Moon/Pluto/Saturn is the primary signal. The signs and houses follow in importance. I would consider the planetary combination first and refine the matter second using signs and houses. The signs are more reliable.

In that example, I will not personify Pluto, or not until I address the Moon/Saturn/Pluto theme as a trio influence, that is a signal more specific than any planetary pair.

david starling 04-12-2019 07:35 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
I agree. The Signs modify by strength and quality, but the planet's have their own intrinsic natures and relationships with one another. Except, I take it a step further, and include planetary relationships beyond how they Aspect each other, although that's definitely a prime consideration.
Thanks for all your well-considered answers!

david starling 04-12-2019 07:45 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Just for fun, how about Pluto as an aloof, mysterious uncle that Father Saturn wants nothing to do with? :biggrin:

Cary2 04-12-2019 08:00 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964360)
Just for fun, how about Pluto as an aloof, mysterious uncle that Father Saturn wants nothing to do with? :biggrin:


I prefer to personify with at least two planets combined. That is the kind of specificity that personification calls for. Traditional astrologers might personify an astrologer as Mercury; a Contemporary astrologer might personify an astrologer as Uranus; but I would prefer to personify an astrologer as Mercury/Uranus.

I would prefer to personify a therapist (psychiatrist, psychologist, psychiatric social worker, healing counselor) as Moon/Pluto.

I prefer to personify a scholar as Mercury/Jupiter, etc, etc, etc

david starling 04-12-2019 08:16 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cary2 (Post 964364)
I prefer to personify with at least two planets combined. That is the kind of specificity that personification calls for. Traditional astrologers might personify an astrologer as Mercury; a Contemporary astrologer might personify an astrologer as Uranus; but I would prefer to personify an astrologer as Mercury/Uranus.

I would prefer to personify a therapist (psychiatrist, psychologist, psychiatric social worker, healing counselor) as Moon/Pluto.

I prefer to personify a scholar as Mercury/Jupiter, etc, etc, etc

So, would the Moon opposite Pluto combination qualify as therapist? Maybe healing using occult practices?

david starling 04-12-2019 08:31 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Or, would the opposition obviate against that? I'm not convinced by the Convention that opposition is necessarily a "bad" Aspect.

Cary2 04-12-2019 08:51 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964366)
So, would the Moon opposite Pluto combination qualify as therapist? Maybe healing using occult practices?

Opposition probably doesn't disqualify it from "therapist". I'm not saying it is not an affliction; I'm just saying that afflictions are not all bad despite the ancient name.

It is not inavlid to personify with a single planet; it is just less reliable. I started with the pairs I learned form Rheinhold Ebertin in The Combination of Stellar Influences, but I added those from Martin Seymour-Smith, and then I discovered my own. I learned that recording artist is Venus/Uranus when that distinction is appropriate on my own. I can't think of the others at the moment, but some are my own discovery after years of this discipline. When you study charts from a database, you see patterns rather boldly.

When you deal with groups of three factors, you see that some groups tend to be benefic despite afflictions, and you see some groups tend to be malefic despite "harmonious" aspects.

david starling 04-12-2019 08:57 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cary2 (Post 964372)
Opposition probably doesn't disqualify it from "therapist". I'm not saying it is not an affliction; I'm just saying that afflictions are not all bad despite the ancient name.

It is not inavlid to personify with a single planet; it is just less reliable. I started with the pairs I learned form Rheinhold Ebertin in The Combination of Planetary Influences, but I added those from Martin Seymour-Smith, and then I discovered my own. I learned that recording artist is Venus/Uranus when that distinction is appropriate on my own. I can't think of the others at the moment, but some are my own discovery after years of this discipline. When you study charts from a database, you see patterns rather boldly.

When you deal with groups of three factors, you see that some groups tend to be benefic despite afflictions, and you see some groups tend to be malefic despite "harmonious" aspects.

Are these pairings you've validated subject to a noticeable pattern of variation, based on how they're connected by Aspect?

Cary2 04-12-2019 08:59 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964366)
So, would the Moon opposite Pluto combination qualify as therapist? Maybe healing using occult practices?

In the case of Moon/Pluto, Pluto is more often "psychology" than "occult". Pluto will more often be occult with Saturn and Mars. You can see the problem of using Pluto alone.

Moon/Pluto actually means "human behavior" as a study. A person with Jupiter = Moon/Pluto is "a good psychologist" which might be one who is perceptive of human nature even without the university degree.

david starling 04-12-2019 09:01 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
I've noticed that Convention hesitates to label Sun in Aquarius as an "affliction", but is quick to label Moon in Capricorn as such.

david starling 04-12-2019 09:07 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Just to clarify, are you using "=" to mean opposition ?

Cary2 04-12-2019 09:08 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964374)
Are these pairings you've validated subject to a noticeable pattern of variation, based on how they're connected by Aspect?

Sure, you have to synthesize according to context. Mercury/Pluto can be salesman, criminal, coder/decoder, detective, or plot/scheme (as in Ponzi sheme) each according to context. Pairs have always displayed that characteristic.

You know that some astrology handbooks don't list aspects with canned interpretations; they will list planetary pairs with examples like the above.

Cary2 04-12-2019 09:12 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964378)
Just to clarify, are you using "=" to mean opposition ?

To cosmobiologists, "=" means direct midpoint which I think is conj and oppostion. Indirect would be square and semisquare and sesquiquadrate. I am using it merely as an example.

You see, any pair has two midpoints, a closer midpoint and a farther midpoint. The farther midpoint is 180-degrees from the nearer. Cosmobiologists don't make a big distinction between conj., opposition, or square to a midpoint. They are all three widely available and nearly equally valid. The more you use them, the more you come to agree.

Cary2 04-12-2019 09:16 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964376)
I've noticed that Convention hesitates to label Sun in Aquarius as an "affliction", but is quick to label Moon in Capricorn as such.

Yeah, I think there is a strong bias against Moon in Capricorn. I've met complete novice amateurs who will tell blood-curdling tales of Moon in Capricorn. It's partly urban legend.

greybeard 04-12-2019 09:18 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
A San Francisco astrologer walks from his apartment to the nearby convenience store to buy some lottery tickets. He takes his phone-camera along. Transiting Pluto, Rx, is within one or two minutes of conjunction with his powerful natal Mars; the two planets are not in natal aspect.

Walking out of the store and into the parking lot, the astrologer notices some crows and decides to take a picture of the comical black birds. A human couple, strangers to the astrologer, also fall into the viewfinder. They are angry that the astrologer has taken their picture. An argument ensues. And then the astrologer is stabbed, seriously wounded.

Pluto can bring danger without natal aspect.

david starling 04-12-2019 09:26 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard (Post 964382)
A San Francisco astrologer walks from his apartment to the nearby convenience store to buy some lottery tickets. He takes his phone-camera along. Transiting Pluto, Rx, is within one or two minutes of conjunction with his powerful natal Mars; the two planets are not in natal aspect.

Walking out of the store and into the parking lot, the astrologer notices some crows and decides to take a picture of the comical black birds. A human couple, strangers to the astrologer, also fall into the viewfinder. They are angry that the astrologer has taken their picture. An argument ensues. And then the astrologer is stabbed, seriously wounded.

Pluto can bring danger without natal aspect.

I pay a LOT of attention to transits, independent of Natal, which is a different matter, along with SR Charts.

david starling 04-12-2019 09:34 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
I'm watching this ongoing transit Saturn/Pluto Conj with great interest, along with the ongoing transit Bowl pattern.

greybeard 04-12-2019 09:39 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Another Pluto transit, this time with Sun...

Leo rising. Pluto in early Leo, well inside 12th house. Sun in Scorpio 4th, not in close square to Pluto but surely square by sign and in mutual reception--they cooperate.

Transiting Pluto comes to EXACT semi-square (octile) of unprecessed natal Sun (age about 45...also note SA Sun aspects) and suicide follows.

Tragic life well-depicted simply by the Sun-Pluto 4-12th square...abandoned by his parents on the streets of Las Vegas at age 9, he spent 18 of his 45 years in prisons. At the end his health collapsed, left him a skeleton wrapped in loose skin with no meaningful future...and his suicide.

He told me that his life had been such a mess because he was so self-centered.

conspiracy theorist 04-13-2019 02:13 AM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cary2 (Post 964372)
Opposition probably doesn't disqualify it from "therapist". I'm not saying it is not an affliction; I'm just saying that afflictions are not all bad despite the ancient name.

It is not inavlid to personify with a single planet; it is just less reliable. I started with the pairs I learned form Rheinhold Ebertin in The Combination of Stellar Influences, but I added those from Martin Seymour-Smith, and then I discovered my own. I learned that recording artist is Venus/Uranus when that distinction is appropriate on my own. I can't think of the others at the moment, but some are my own discovery after years of this discipline. When you study charts from a database, you see patterns rather boldly.

When you deal with groups of three factors, you see that some groups tend to be benefic despite afflictions, and you see some groups tend to be malefic despite "harmonious" aspects.

What books would you recommend that focuses on midpoints? I asked this question months ago on the forum but there was no dedicated astrologer who utilized midpoints regularly in their practice. I did get some suggestions which I appreciate and have looked through, but I'm curious to know what you may have in mind. As well as any supplementary literature one might need to gain a better mastery over the technique.

david starling 04-13-2019 05:50 AM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
What's the basic premise of mid-points?

david starling 04-13-2019 09:47 AM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964327)
Saturn 20 degrees :capricorn:/Pluto 23 degrees :capricorn:.
Moon about 22 degrees :cancer:.

Forgot to mention, the Moon at 22 degrees :cancer: was conjunct the NN.

Cary2 04-13-2019 02:05 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist (Post 964412)
What books would you recommend that focuses on midpoints? I asked this question months ago on the forum but there was no dedicated astrologer who utilized midpoints regularly in their practice. I did get some suggestions which I appreciate and have looked through, but I'm curious to know what you may have in mind. As well as any supplementary literature one might need to gain a better mastery over the technique.


I think the best is The New Astrologer by Martin Seymour-Smith. Rheinhold Ebertin's book The Combination of Stellar Influences is better as a reference, and it is a great reference. I believe the Ebertin book also teaches midpoints, but it is the reference part of it that I used. There is a book by McBroom, but I wasn't very impressed with it. If you find it at a bargain, go ahead.

The Ebertin book is just about the best astrology reference book you will find, if you are interested in interpreting charts, but Seymour-Smith book is my favorite, and it completely revolutionized my way of interpreting charts. Plus I love to read Seymour-Smith, he was a British literary critic with a fabulous prose style.

If you own Horoscope Symbols by Robert Hand (many people do), it contains an introduction to midpoints. The planetary pair section of the Hand book is not as helpful as the planetary pairs offered by the other two I mentioned. The planetary pair guide in the Martin Seymour-Smith book is golden; it is a treasure to me.

Cary2 04-13-2019 02:29 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964422)
What's the basic premise of mid-points?


You may wonder why the Cosmobiologists only use hard aspects to midpoints, conj., opp., square, the octiles. The octiles to midpoints are very important, but they require a smaller orb. I think it is because Ebertin's astrology is an event-oriented astrology. The hard aspects are more noticeable. When you practice the Seymour-Smith harmonic charts, you see that all aspects to midpoints matter which is intrinsic to the harmonic charts. I have acquired the habit from Ebertin of using hard aspects.

Any pair of factors in a chart has a closer midpoint and a farther midpoint. I suggest you isolate the closer one and search for aspects to it. The blend of the two factors is found there. Do not assume affliction with the hard aspects that aspect the midpoint; think of it as activation. The planetary chemistry will be a better guide to the benefic/malefic side of the picture. A three-way connection using midpoints is called a "picture".

A SU/MA/JU picture will usually be benefic regardless which aspects link them together, however, if there is a Su/Ju square aspected by a square from Mars, it will be much rockier than most SU/MA/JU pictures. A MA/SA/NE picture will be malefic regardless how the connection is made.

Ebertin first had a different interpretation depending which of the trio was aspect the mp of the other two, and so did Witte. But in the notes, Ebertin finally came to believe that the composition of threesome was the key. So, when I use COSI, I check all three combinations for completeness.

Some planets are emphasizers, Mars, Sun, Moon, and the angles are emphasizers. When an angle is found part of the picture, it emphasizes the pair that is involved. The same for Ma, Su, Mo. That is a general tip, but always think of the three way combination.

Three planets together in a picture are a challenge, but the rewards are sharp definition and specificity. Start interpreting groups of three by breaking them down into pairs. Su/Ju/Ma would be Su/Ju Su/Ma and Ma/Ju. The Ebertin book will be an eye-opener here with his concise three-way interpretations in catalog form.

If the two planets are in aspect, allow a wider orb at their midpoint. If they have something aspecting the midpoint, emphasize the pair's aspect as if it were closer in orb. Wide aspects can become very strong in effect this way.

Sun, Moon, Asc., MC are significators. Any picture containing one of these is much more important. Any picture containing two of these is very, very special. Any picture showing three of these may dominate the whole chart.

Cary2 04-13-2019 02:48 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by david starling (Post 964454)
Forgot to mention, the Moon at 22 degrees :cancer: was conjunct the NN.

First, Moon/Node is much more emotional. There may be the issue of a group that is like a second family.

Cary2 04-13-2019 03:06 PM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
Here's a free book by Michael Erlewine that will help with interpretation much in the manner of COSI.

https://www.astrologysoftware.com/bo...mbinations.pdf

ellie04 04-18-2019 08:44 AM

Re: Mars-Pluto: A potentially dangerous aspect in someone's natal chart
 
A lot of people have transpersonal planets aspecting their inner planets, so they're ALL off-putting because they've certain compulsions?

I know 3 Mars square Pluto individuals. One is my childhood friend. Another one is my friend of 20yrs. The last one is the guy I love. Coincidentally they all have Cancer Mars. I've never felt threatened by them. None of them are violent or dangerous, so I think we should stop labelling them this way.

What I can say about them is they each have their own authoritarian views on things so they can come across strong, but they've never forced me to conform (it will not be possible anyway, LOL). Survivor instincts are strong and they can withstand a lot of hardships for long periods of time.

It is said that Mars/Pluto people are not afraid of confrontations and people think they pick fights, but that's not what I see. My childhood friend, for e.g., always walk away from a quarrel.


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