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Whoam1 12-31-2017 03:34 AM

Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Iíve always felt unrelated to my sun moon and rising. Iíve found I have a hades moon and a moon in the eight house. I also have a Scorpio stellium. Scorpio is my dom sign at 21% and Pluto is my dom planet at 10.5%. My dom modality is fixed, and my dom element is water. However would saying I am a Scorpio make me a fraud?
Chart:
Sag sun 10
Sag rising 7
Sag Juno 11
Cap Neptune 8
Cap south node 9
Cap Uranus 19
Cap mars 29
Aries Jupiter 0
Aries PoF 2
Aries sat 15
Cancer N node 9
Cancer vertex 17
Cancer Pallas 20
Leo moon 16
Virgo ceres 8
Libra MC 0
Scorp Venus 0
Scorp vesta 6
Scorp Chiron 16
Scorp Pluto 16
Scorp Black moon 19
Scorp Lilith ast. 28
Scorp Mercury 29
Moon Square Pluto
Moon in 8th house
This is my sidereal chart. I use placidus house system. Looking for any feed back postive or negitive.

waybread 12-31-2017 04:13 AM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
If by "Scorpio" you mean "sun in Scorpio," then yes, it would be. But why use a sidereal chart unless you're doing Vedic astrology? In the conventional western tropical zodiac, your planets would all move back something like 24 or 27 degrees, depending upon which sidereal zodiac you used. A sidereal sun at 10 Sagittarius would become a tropical sun at about 16 degrees Scorpio.

It would be helpful if you posted your chart, as it is hard to visualize aspects and chart patterns through a long column of planetary placements. Think about using the tropical zodiac for this.

CapAquaPis 12-31-2017 04:16 AM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Culture theft much? You're actually Plutonian, not really Scorpio. It may be a trend to identify as Scorpio in the Aquarian age, but you're still a Sag sun (and ASC). The only signs not in your chart are Aquarius (I'm one-going by tropical), Pisces (friends to Aquarians) and Taurus (not really bad, but are pushy, stubborn or arrogant). My natal chart finds my Moon (also Aquarius), Uranus (sign ruler, in Scorpio) and Saturn (triple conjunction with Mars and Jupiter in Virgo) influences me the most. Also Mercury in Pisces-9th indicate mental disability (I have mild autism) and Venus in Aries midheaven indicates gender fluidity (for a biologically male). and Lunarian by nature - my ascendant is Cancer, the sign ruler of the Moon next to my Sun.

Whoam1 12-31-2017 06:21 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Thanks for your your feed back. I'll tell people I'm a dominate Scorpio and a Plutonian from here forward (as I have been). And actually my stellium in Scorpio pull my Asc into more Scorpioic traits. People automatically assume I'm a Scorpio by my appearance.Actually my tropical would be 16 in Capricorn, you shifted the wrong way.

Whoam1 12-31-2017 08:02 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
And sorry to do this. I don't frimly believe in sun sign or ascendent signs. I think these are rather shallow celestial bodies. The sun covers the ego, the rising covers the apperance. The moon is what these to hide and protect. Also I believe more firmly in a dominant sign, this is the sign that has the highest percentage in your chart. It covers you in general not just your ego. And the connections at the end that I have listed Pluto square moon and moon in the eight house, will give me emotional traits similar and often more intense that a Scorpio moon. By these standards in the chart I choose to use, I am a Scorpio dominant with a (double) hades moon.

Whoam1 12-31-2017 08:22 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Problems lie in both systems just as in every sector in life, Ive learned to thrive in these dark places . And yes let me be a boring down to earth traditionalist that is capricorn, oh wait I shook the tree that's not very Capricorn of me... Let my Virgo moon make me really insecure and critiquing. *Cry* *Sob* *Cry* *Sob*, you hurt my feelings. Nope wait you didn't *next person* (this time use more facts instead of opinions). And your rising sign enters the moment you enter the earth this would be more accurate in you conception not in your physical emerging from your mother. Food for thought and thanks for the feed back.

waybread 12-31-2017 08:43 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoam1 (Post 851277)
Thanks for your your feed back. I'll tell people I'm a dominate Scorpio and a Plutonian from here forward (as I have been). And actually my stellium in Scorpio pull my Asc into more Scorpioic traits. People automatically assume I'm a Scorpio by my appearance.Actually my tropical would be 16 in Capricorn, you shifted the wrong way.

Did I? Precession of the equinoxes goes backwards, not forward. All of my tropical Aquarian planets slip back into sidereal Capricorn. Tropical planetary placements will be earlier, not later, than sidereal placements. Try doing your chart on the Astrodienst free chart pages at www.astro.com. The western tropical zodiac is their default position, although you can also specify severeal sidereal zodiacs if you wish.

You will probably learn that you're more Scorpio than you believe from a sidereal perspective.

obsidianmineral 01-01-2018 12:09 AM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoam1 (Post 851324)
Problems lie in both systems just as in every sector in life, Ive learned to thrive in these dark places . And yes let me be a boring down to earth traditionalist that is capricorn, oh wait I shook the tree that's not very Capricorn of me... Let my Virgo moon make me really insecure and critiquing. *Cry* *Sob* *Cry* *Sob*, you hurt my feelings. Nope wait you didn't *next person* (this time use more facts instead of opinions). And your rising sign enters the moment you enter the earth this would be more accurate in you conception not in your physical emerging from your mother. Food for thought and thanks for the feed back.

Well, the fact is that most people use the tropical zodiac for a reason. If you're gonna be so hard on choosing the exact constellation that's rising in your birth, then use Ophiucus as your rising sign, because it's the actual constellation. The zodiac we use is there for a reason, it's based on symbolism and seasons, like most of the techniques used in astrology. There's really no point in trying to be more exact or real in using the actual position of the constellations when pretty much all of astrology is based upon the symbolism and symmetry of things. I don't know if you did know this, but the aspects, rulerships, triplicities, symbols for the planets, order, elements, etc. are all based on symbolical meaning, not exact facts. For example, trines are said to be harmonious because they represent the triangle, a figure that's regarded as spiritual and harmonious. And, going even beyond the basic structure of astrology, there's a lot of empirical research being done on astrology and most of it is done using the tropical zodiac. In personal experience I've seen vedic to fail a lot more times than tropical. I've asked many people about their charts in vedic and they just don't see it. If you use vedic as a result of opinion then you're free to do it, but it's a couple of testimonies against the much more vast and common use of the tropical zodiac.


There are also people who like to use the argument of "Vedic and Tropical are both correct because astrology is so mysterious and magical that in both systems, natal charts describe the same person" - Yeah, that's probably the weakest argument you can come up with. If you firmly believe this is the case then you firmly believe astrology is false. If things do "match up" even after changing the signs it's because your mind is telling you so, trying to find connections and patterns, a job at which our minds are really good at. It's like denying confirmation bias. Astrology is meant to be objective, yet it fails to have even a single zodiac system. Changing signs means changing the dignity and debility of the planets, therefore objectively changing the outcomes of a planet. So yeah, there's a flaw in trying to start from the premise that two zodiac systems are viable.


So, if we were to use logic we'd say that if astrology works, then there can only be one zodiac system and house system.

Whoam1 01-01-2018 12:39 AM

I did my sidereal chart that Is the sag sun and asc. Birthday 12/27/1999.

Whoam1 01-01-2018 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsidianmineral (Post 851416)
Well, the fact is that most people use the tropical zodiac for a reason. If you're gonna be so hard on choosing the exact constellation that's rising in your birth, then use Ophiucus as your rising sign, because it's the actual constellation. The zodiac we use is there for a reason, it's based on symbolism and seasons, like most of the techniques used in astrology. There's really no point in trying to be more exact or real in using the actual position of the constellations when pretty much all of astrology is based upon the symbolism and symmetry of things. I don't know if you did know this, but the aspects, rulerships, triplicities, symbols for the planets, order, elements, etc. are all based on symbolical meaning, not exact facts. For example, trines are said to be harmonious because they represent the triangle, a figure that's regarded as spiritual and harmonious. And, going even beyond the basic structure of astrology, there's a lot of empirical research being done on astrology and most of it is done using the tropical zodiac. In personal experience I've seen vedic to fail a lot more times than tropical. I've asked many people about their charts in vedic and they just don't see it. If you use vedic as a result of opinion then you're free to do it, but it's a couple of testimonies against the much more vast and common use of the tropical zodiac.


There are also people who like to use the argument of "Vedic and Tropical are both correct because astrology is so mysterious and magical that in both systems, natal charts describe the same person" - Yeah, that's probably the weakest argument you can come up with. If you firmly believe this is the case then you firmly believe astrology is false. If things do "match up" even after changing the signs it's because your mind is telling you so, trying to find connections and patterns, a job at which our minds are really good at. It's like denying confirmation bias. Astrology is meant to be objective, yet it fails to have even a single zodiac system. Changing signs means changing the dignity and debility of the planets, therefore objectively changing the outcomes of a planet. So yeah, there's a flaw in trying to start from the premise that two zodiac systems are viable.


So, if we were to use logic we'd say that if astrology works, then there can only be one zodiac system and house system.

Viable point I do agree however I have researched both sidereal and tropical zodiac along with many house systems. I don't believe myself to be a Capricorn this is objective I don't act like one don't look like one. However I'm not here to argue so I'll let it be. Also note that the heard runs in fear and dies many of ways many of times, most people as a collective whole mean nothing to me. As societies have a history of being wrong. I'd rather use a faulty system and accept the faults than pretend things are ok.

Whoam1 01-01-2018 03:51 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Chart Image

JUPITERASC 01-01-2018 04:21 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by obsidianmineral (Post 851416)


Well, the fact is
that most people
use the tropical zodiac
for a reason.


One wonders why :smile:

Ptolemy and Ancient Astronomy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/images/...8d_303_170.jpg
Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss
the ancient Greek astronomer and mathematician Ptolemy

and consider how and why
his geocentric theory of the universe held sway for so many centuries.

In his seminal astronomical work, the Almagest
written in the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy proposed
that the Earth was at the centre of the universe

Ptolemy's model of the universe remained dominant for over a thousand years.
It was not until 1543, and Copernicus's heliocentric theory of the world
that the Ptolemaic model was finally challenged
and not until 1609 that Johannes Kepler's New Astronomy
put an end to his ideas for good.
But how and why did Ptolemy's system survive for so long? :smile:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017528d

Whoam1 01-01-2018 10:54 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
I've researched both tropic and sidereal heliocentric versions of my chart. My sidereal heliocentric is Scorpio dominant as it has the most number of planets giving it more aspects with Scorpio because of the three bodies that are there. In my tropical heliocentric chart cancer has three bodies while Scorpio only has two, however this chart has fixed modality as its dominant modality and water as its dominant element, meaning fixed water rules the chart just as fixed water rules Scorpio. In all three of my tropical heliocentric, sidereal heliocentric, and sidereal geocentric charts, Scorpio is a top dog sign, if not the most top dog sign. I found this interesting how these three charts can sign a similar song, think that there is anything too this or is it just blasphemy and a coincidence.

sibylline 01-01-2018 11:08 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
I have a similar 8th house and Pluto emphasis but...I guess I don't really get the point of fixating on Scorpio. There are similarities between Scorpio and Plutonic or 8th factors but it doesn't make sense to highlight those over the many differences.

IleneK 01-01-2018 11:10 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
You are Scorpio Sun when you cast a tropical/western chart. It makes sense that you feel Scorpionic.

sibylline 01-01-2018 11:25 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IleneK (Post 851675)
You are Scorpio Sun when you cast a tropical/western chart. It makes sense that you feel Scorpionic.

I think people are getting confused because of the (ETA: incorrect) sidereal use...the OP said birthdate is 12/27/1999, i.e. Capricorn Sun.

JUPITERASC 01-01-2018 11:35 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sibylline (Post 851684)

I think people are getting confused because of the sidereal use...
the OP said birthdate is 12/27/1999, i.e. Capricorn Sun.


The OP chart description however is a Sagittarius Sun :smile:
i.e.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoam1 (Post 851013)

I’ve always felt unrelated to my sun moon and rising.
I’ve found I have a hades moon and a moon in the eight house. I also have a Scorpio stellium. Scorpio is my dom sign at 21% and Pluto is my dom planet at 10.5%. My dom modality is fixed, and my dom element is water. However would saying I am a Scorpio make me a fraud?

Chart:
Sag sun 10
Sag rising 7


This is my sidereal chart. I use placidus house system.
Looking for any feed back postive or negitive.

and the OP clearly invites SIDEREAL WESTERN ASTROLOGICAL comment
obviously we need a WESTERN SIDEREAL astrology board
to eliminate confusion of a WESTERN SIDEREAL astrology question
being responded to using Western Tropical astrology

Whoam1 01-01-2018 11:38 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Thankyou sibylline. As for the 8th house Pluto connections. May I add that I did my tropical and sidereal heliocentric charts too, my tropical heliocentric is a cancer dominant and a water dominant chart with fixed as a prominent modality, giving Scorpio power here too. Also with my sidereal heliocentric chart Pluto again is in Scorpio along with Mercury and Chiron, here it has power too. I've been fixed on astrology because of Scorpio as I didn't fit my tropical sign I searched now I'm at a crossroads where even different versions of the charts hint at Scorpio energy, and people peg me as a Scorpio no matter how hard I try to blend in (I'm good at blending btw). It's just the system that many astrologers love has no place for me.

JUPITERASC 01-01-2018 11:44 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoam1 (Post 851687)

Thankyou sibylline. As too the 8th house Pluto connections.
May u add that I did my tropical and sidereal heliocentric charts too, my tropical heliocentric is a cancer dominant and a water dominant chart with fixed as a prominent modality, giving Scorpio power here too.
Also with my sidereal heliocentric chart Pluto again is in Scorpio along with Mercury and Chiron, here it has power too.
I've been fixed on astrology because of Scorpio as I didn't fit my tropical sign
I searched now I'm at a crossroads where even different versions of the charts
hint at Scorpio energy, and people peg me as a Scorpio no matter how hard I try to blend in (I'm good at blending btw).

It's just the system that many astrologers love
has no place for me.


I continue to request a Western Sidereal astrology board
for discussions such as these
any comments appreciated on members only board :smile:
at
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...8&postcount=36

sibylline 01-02-2018 12:20 AM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoam1 (Post 851687)
Thankyou sibylline. As for the 8th house Pluto connections. May I add that I did my tropical and sidereal heliocentric charts too, my tropical heliocentric is a cancer dominant and a water dominant chart with fixed as a prominent modality, giving Scorpio power here too. Also with my sidereal heliocentric chart Pluto again is in Scorpio along with Mercury and Chiron, here it has power too. I've been fixed on astrology because of Scorpio as I didn't fit my tropical sign I searched now I'm at a crossroads where even different versions of the charts hint at Scorpio energy, and people peg me as a Scorpio no matter how hard I try to blend in (I'm good at blending btw). It's just the system that many astrologers love has no place for me.

I think you're confusing yourself and everybody else by mixing and jumping back and forth between zodiacs.

In the tropical zodiac that most use here, you're not water dominant. You're fixed and earth (grand trine in earth, in fact). Trying to piece your tropical chart together, I think you should look more into what happens when the Moon (and, by extension, its house and aspects) gain prominence.

People have pegged me as different signs over the years, but in truth most people don't know anything about astrology. The main issue with saying "Scorpio" when not is that it is inaccurate. If your Sun is not in Scorpio, it is in a different sign that does influence you, but it may not seem that way if you're going off of stereotypes. You should probably look deeper into astrology, beyond signs, and more as a whole instead of isolated pieces.

waybread 01-02-2018 04:33 AM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoam1 (Post 851687)
Thankyou sibylline. As for the 8th house Pluto connections. May I add that I did my tropical and sidereal heliocentric charts too, my tropical heliocentric is a cancer dominant and a water dominant chart with fixed as a prominent modality, giving Scorpio power here too. Also with my sidereal heliocentric chart Pluto again is in Scorpio along with Mercury and Chiron, here it has power too. I've been fixed on astrology because of Scorpio as I didn't fit my tropical sign I searched now I'm at a crossroads where even different versions of the charts hint at Scorpio energy, and people peg me as a Scorpio no matter how hard I try to blend in (I'm good at blending btw). It's just the system that many astrologers love has no place for me.

I don't like the term "over-thinking" but I wonder if you are overthinking your horoscope. Try getting to know your tropical zodiac chart.

Very few astrologers use heliocentric charts. Astrology, whether sidereal or tropical or constellational comes from a geocentric perspective.

If you "feel like a Scorpio" then chances are that your tropical chart is a better fit for you than your sidereal chart. And yes, precession of the equinoxes did move the planets "backwards." If you don't believe me, cast your chart using the tropical zodiac.

Notice, too, how planets tell your story. A sign shows how or in what manner a planet operates. But any planet making a major aspect to Pluto is going to become Plutonized.

david starling 01-02-2018 10:02 AM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waybread (Post 851327)
Did I? Precession of the equinoxes goes backwards, not forward. All of my tropical Aquarian planets slip back into sidereal Capricorn. Tropical planetary placements will be earlier, not later, than sidereal placements. Try doing your chart on the Astrodienst free chart pages at www.astro.com. The western tropical zodiac is their default position, although you can also specify severeal sidereal zodiacs if you wish.

You will probably learn that you're more Scorpio than you believe from a sidereal perspective.

The easiest way for me to look at it is as a Progression of the Constellations through the Tropical Zodiac. So, the constellation of Capricorn has moved well into Tropical Aquarius, for example, and, as you said, in Sidereal your Sun would be in Capricorn. The confusion is that the listing was Sidereal, not Tropical.
I got a kick out of a journalist interviewing people after a professor at some university got some attention by reiterating the old "revelation" that the Zodiacal constellations had moved about one Sign ahead in the well-known Tropical coordinates. After asking, "What's your Sign", he would say that "ACTUALLY your Sun-sign is in the PREVIOUS constellation, so you're REALLY a [....]" He did this with a young man who proudly announced, "I'm an Aries!" And when this journalist told him, that, according to this professor, he's "really" a Pisces, he said "PISCES?! Oh cr*p!" :lol:

Whoam1 01-02-2018 07:21 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
I am glad your all flustered and having fun. Nothing you say is bothering me. I tell people I am a scorpionic person clearly you need to alert your other only tropic peers to study more, not me. I understand the differences between all of my charts how to calculate them and read them. I know myself not to be a Capricorn personality so I say I have a scorpionic personality. You think I know this topic wouldn't upset people...

obsidianmineral 01-02-2018 07:52 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
I already said what I think about this and yet people keep discussing the viability of sidereal. It's completely fine to accept it, but if we're gonna use sidereal then reject tropical completely. If OP doesn't identify with Capricorn then he's the first of many that I've witnessed to not identify with their Sun sign and placements using the tropical zodiac. They could however show us their tropical natal chart and let us see for ourselves what astrology says about him.

The annoying thing about this is that people are more inclined to changing the signs completely in a chart than actually admitting that astrology failed. If astrology failed then it did and that's it.

There can be no more than one true house system or zodiac system. It's a fallacy to think that both things work. That just demonstrates how illusive, manipulable and single-minded the way people think can be. If you're so willing to accept a new zodiac and house system then go ahead and read the wikipedia article about astrology. Astrology could very well be false. What the article says is way more rational than anything 99% of the people say here. People insist on using different astrological techniques and there is also a division between modern and traditional, but the thing you don't guys get is that this very variability and lack of unity in the astrological technique goes as far as to tell how ******** everything really is.


So, either accept a single method and stick to it, see the results and find out it works or accept astrology is entirely false.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology_and_science

david starling 01-02-2018 08:15 PM

Re: Would calling myself a Scorpio make me a poser
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by obsidianmineral (Post 851857)
I already said what I think about this and yet people keep discussing the viability of sidereal. It's completely fine to accept it, but if we're gonna use sidereal then reject tropical completely. If OP doesn't identify with Capricorn then he's the first of many that I've witnessed to not identify with their Sun sign and placements using the tropical zodiac. They could however show us their tropical natal chart and let us see for ourselves what astrology says about him.

The annoying thing about this is that people are more inclined to changing the signs completely in a chart than actually admitting that astrology failed. If astrology failed then it did and that's it.

There can be no more than one true house system or zodiac system. It's a fallacy to think that both things work. That just demonstrates how illusive, manipulable and single-minded the way people think can be. If you're so willing to accept a new zodiac and house system then go ahead and read the wikipedia article about astrology. Astrology could very well be false. What the article says is way more rational than anything 99% of the people say here. People insist on using different astrological techniques and there is also a division between modern and traditional, but the thing you don't guys get is that this very variability and lack of unity in the astrological technique goes as far as to tell how ******** everything really is.


So, either accept a single method and stick to it, see the results and find out it works or accept astrology is entirely false.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology_and_science

Several viewing angles of the same phenomenon is necessary to get the complete picture. Btw, which Religion has the "one True" version of a Deity, in your opinion? :biggrin:


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