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Mr stellium 03-27-2009 07:40 PM

Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
I have observed the following common indicators in the charts of people who have commited suicide (using whole sign houses [e.g if 25 Gemini is rising all of Gemini is H1, Cancer is H2 and so on] and traditional rulers). I looked at the Sun, Moon, Ascendant, Mars and H8 and its ruler. The following kept appearing:

> Ruler of H8 is Saturn in aspect to the Sun (Conjunction, opposition, square, trine, sextile)

AND

> The ruler of the Ascendant is conjunct, square or opposite Mars.

Also:

> Ruler of H8 is conjunct the Ascendant with a 10 degree orb either side

> Ruler of the Ascendant and H8 are each afflicted by Mars or Saturn, and if the ruler is Mars or Saturn, afflicting the Sun or ruler of H4.

There didnt appear to be any emphasis on particular signs, elements or modes but I did notice that Mars in an earth sign was comparatively rare.


[Moderator edit - Thread moved here, as it discusses aspects and configurations related to a particular subject.]

Claire19 03-28-2009 04:02 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
I think 10 degree orb is too wide in any circumstance....... Mars would be involved yes and the 8th house. Also Mercury, Moon and Pluto. I have some of these combinations and have often been suicidal. Also Saturn conjunct Mercury for negative thinking. In my 6th house it was due to lack of employment and having no money to live. In Leo it has also been as a result of a broken heart.

My chart ruler is Neptune conjunct Mars in the 8th and I think the sextiles to Saturn, Pluto and Mercury may actually have saved me. With Neptune my intention was to drown myself. As I have always lived near the ocean this would have been easy and apparently not an unpleasant death but my belief is that we have to come and deal with the issues again if we suicide and then there is the grief that is caused to others. Although I dont think it is a mortal sin it is always regrettable. I know how it is to be so down and in despair that I dont judge anyone else. Some times people are in enormous physical pain for instance.
Yes perhaps the Earth signs are basically practical and resilient and find a way to get on with it. It was my Moon in Taurus that gave me money from the family to keep going until I got back on my feet in one instance. There are so many scenarios that I dont think we can generalise. Very interesting topic though. Thank you for your contribution.

Shining Ray 03-28-2009 10:27 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
On Astro-Databank under research, there is quite a few suicide charts. It is an interesting subject, but it can be very difficult to find an astrological signature that can run through all suicide charts. The obvious place to look does seem to be the 8th house, but it isn't always badly afflicted. One of the chart's I just looked at had Mars conjunct Saturn in 12th on the Asc. Traditionalists would examine the "malefic" nature of the two planets, Moderns would examine the psychological meaning, through depression, frustration, rage etc. Moon in Cancer square Neptune can symbolize an ultra sensitive individual, feelings can become overwhelming, this person drowned. Jupiter (Dipositor of Sagittarius Sun) in Aries rules the 3rd and is placed in the 6th house opposed Saturn 12th. Mental optimism, can become frustrated, and the 6th is the house of the health.

Your theory on Mars/Saturn afflicted on Asc is true in this case. Good observation :)

R4VEN 04-01-2009 02:58 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Ray
On Astro-Databank under research, there is quite a few suicide charts. It is an interesting subject, but it can be very difficult to find an astrological signature that can run through all suicide charts. The obvious place to look does seem to be the 8th house, but it isn't always badly afflicted. One of the chart's I just looked at had Mars conjunct Saturn in 12th on the Asc. Traditionalists would examine the "malefic" nature of the two planets, Moderns would examine the psychological meaning, through depression, frustration, rage etc. Moon in Cancer square Neptune can symbolize an ultra sensitive individual, feelings can become overwhelming, this person drowned. Jupiter (Dipositor of Sagittarius Sun) in Aries rules the 3rd and is placed in the 6th house opposed Saturn 12th. Mental optimism, can become frustrated, and the 6th is the house of the health.

Your theory on Mars/Saturn afflicted on Asc is true in this case. Good observation :)

Shining Ray you make some really interesting observations about the destructive nature of blocked rage, which can lead a person to suiciding.

I have moon in Cancer (in 6th) squaring Neptune in Libra, and have felt like leaving this world for much of my life. Generally, all I have to do is sleep on it, and the next day feels better, even if it isn't! That is, my suicidal feelings have not been fed by rage, and it is those with the rage of blocked energy who tend to go through with it more often than the wussy sensitives like me............................
On the weekend I told my best friend that whenever I've felt like leaving this world, it's not anger or self-hatred which drives me, but a deep need to save myself from any more of what this material world dishes out. I've been motivated by a deep need to save my soul, and to go back to the spirit world where everyone is of value. I can see that this is the ultimate in escapism, so Neptune plays a major role here.

astrologer50 04-01-2009 10:45 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
This has been extensively debated on AW recently and well worth researching...

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...hlight=suicide

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...hlight=suicide

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...hlight=suicide

asteroid 06-08-2010 12:49 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
1 Attachment(s)
Look at this :sun: :scorpio: :saturn:12th :conjunct: Asc :leo: :square: :mars::uranus::scorpio: This person commited suicide twice in the past suffering from great drepression.

I sappose this kind of aspect in these specific signs had been resposible for that????? Now that progressed sun and mars of this person moved in Sag is much more optimistic !!!

astrologer50 06-08-2010 01:49 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
asteriod, this chart has an unaspected mercury, so he never felt 'heard' Only one planet in earth Jupiter at critical degree & retrograde - this creates a less need for socialising. This jupiter is also handle of bucket chart.

Neptune is conj moon and venus, so the nurtuing (moon) was either absent or smother loved. Moon conj neptune emotional disillusionment, venus conj neptune, romantic disillusionment. thankfully there is a moon trine saturn and venus opp jupiter. So the ven opp jup will swing from moments of great affection, joy and expansion to great disappointments and confusions....

Sun conj N Node suggests it's important life to transform (scorpio) from the depths of being. Sun conj Uranus adds strong rebellious impatient streak and poss eccentric to in 3house of restless, procrastinating gemini, who doesn't like making decisions.

Truly a difficult chart full of contradictions :pouty:. Mars conj Uranus erractic actions and bad temper, then mars square saturn is frustrations and stop/go situations and doing ones duty in a cautioius and constructive manner, but Uranus is very close and more influenced. Only one planet above the horizon, a *very* subjective personality type. Saturn square MC, lacks confidence socially and careerwise

Notice now, prog Asc is conjunct Ceres the nurturer and self nurturing, but also square moon and neptune to
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=61742&postcount=14

http://neptunecafe.homestead.com/Ceres.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dwarf_planet
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/ceres.htm

http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/ceres.html
http://www.librarising.com/astrology/tables/ceres.html
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12612&highlight=ceres
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8212&highlight=ceres

asteroid 06-08-2010 01:58 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
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Oh my goodness so would my presence in the life of this person(who is actually my mate) help????

Thank you for once more !!!!

astrologer50 06-08-2010 05:46 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asteroid (Post 211809)
Oh my goodness so would my presence in the life of this person(who is actually my mate) help????

Thank you for once more !!!!

Jupiter conj chiron is faith, expansion and joviality - nice helping to heal. Outer sun in virgo conj Ceres- helping nurture
POF in cancer 11th conj N Node - karmic lessons and happiness

friendships have different mechanics than relationships, whereas friends can walk away and have a 'breather' close partners/marriage usually cannot...

there are still too many asteriods and aspects to get a clear picture but all looks fine to me...:biggrin:

BobZemco 06-08-2010 06:27 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by astrologer50 (Post 211807)
this chart has an unaspected mercury, so he never felt 'heard' ...Only one planet above the horizon, a *very* subjective personality type.

I wonder how common those two characteristics are.

astrologer50 06-08-2010 06:41 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BobZemco (Post 211856)
I wonder how common those two characteristics are.

there are lots of other things in astrology that can suggest the same thing ie: mercury retrograde, mercury in 12th, mercury conj saturn :lol:

asteroid 06-08-2010 06:56 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by astrologer50 (Post 211845)
Jupiter conj chiron is faith, expansion and joviality - nice helping to heal. Outer sun in virgo conj Ceres- helping nurture
POF in cancer 11th conj N Node - karmic lessons and happiness

friendships have different mechanics than relationships, whereas friends can walk away and have a 'breather' close partners/marriage usually cannot...

there are still too many asteriods and aspects to get a clear picture but all looks fine to me...:biggrin:

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Well, he's my partner and from the first moment we met without knowing anything about him, i had an extremely feeling that i have to take care and ptotect him, like beeing responsible for him. Maybe its my venus in 12th who sympathizes with those who suffer from psychic pain. But since we've been together he became happy and carefree:love:

Thank uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu:biggrin:

BobZemco 06-09-2010 12:34 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by astrologer50 (Post 211859)
there are lots of other things in astrology that can suggest the same thing ie: mercury retrograde, mercury in 12th, mercury conj saturn

In the chart of an extreme introvert? I mean there's nothing wrong with being introverted, some people prefer it. I noticed the only 3 planets in the west were all in the 4th House. Apparently he wasn't too wrapped up with other people.

virgo18 04-21-2011 04:44 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr stellium (Post 131499)

> Ruler of H8 is Saturn in aspect to the Sun (Conjunction, opposition, square, trine, sextile)

AND

> The ruler of the Ascendant is conjunct, square or opposite Mars.

Also:

> Ruler of H8 is conjunct the Ascendant with a 10 degree orb either side

> Ruler of the Ascendant and H8 are each afflicted by Mars or Saturn, and if the ruler is Mars or Saturn, afflicting the Sun or ruler of H4.

There didnt appear to be any emphasis on particular signs, elements or modes but I did notice that Mars in an earth sign was comparatively rare.


[Moderator edit - Thread moved here, as it discusses aspects and configurations related to a particular subject.]

Thats weird.... There have to me more profound aspects that make a person commit to suicide.

I have the ruler of my 1st house (Jupiter) in the 8th
Jupiter opposition Saturn in the 2nd
Jupiter square Mars in the 10th
Venus in Scorpio oppose Moon in Taurus
Moon in Taurus oppose Pluto in Scorpio

I never had the idea of killing my self.... thats absurd, I love life even when I feel uncomfortable.




I have a close friend who try to kill him self because a girl dumped him: I dunno he's ascendant

He's a Scorpio Sun
Venus 29 in Sagittarius
Mars 0 in Scorpio
Moon in Capricorn
Jupiter in Cancer
He's Moon conjunct Neptune
and he has Mercury in Scorpio conjunct Pluto


This guy hanged out with me, but I quit hanging out with him. I have Venus in Scorpio in the 11th but its in 12th in the whole house system... I attract Scorpionic guys who suffer some kind of psychic pain also...

Oyatao 07-09-2012 01:04 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
1 Attachment(s)
So... what is the redress once you know you are kinda predestined towards suicide.

I mean I have always been aware of my suicidal tendencies but having seen the amazingly strong indicators in my chart... uh, do I just accept my fate and get it over with?

Or should I continue on this journey, pitiful, pathetic, overly sensitive, overly emotional, dramatic (excuse me; I'm under a saturn opp sun transit as I write as well sooo yeah-- darkgloombrooddoom)

...Should I wait for yet another failure... another humilation to propel me into such darkness that I finally kill the cowardice and courageously step into my fate?

Do I wait to see if the Apocolypse comes to relieve me of my burden?

I mean whats the recourse, does anybody have any suggestions?

When I was in brazil I had taken some serenading lover into my arms and as my guts spilled unashamedly unabashedly; he had the nerve to ask me (in the very few english words he knew) if I knew I had a deathwish...

I mean like what the fuhk. Submit to the science of these mathematical metaphysics only to find that my emotions are written out all through it... I never wanted religion to make me insane but it seems plain... there's no remedy to this pain and suffering (darkgloombrooddoom)

Is it a karmic curse? A generational shunning? Who the fuhk was I in a past life, Jeffery Dahmer or something?

Like dayum! Queen of the fuhkin damned!

But I'm a stubborn 8th house ram and I will live gawddamitt in spite of what goes on in my head. Let the universe do the work to murder me; I will not submit willingly! (<--- uh-oh I shant be taunting the heavens I know I'm predestined and upon my head may fall every calamity to urge me into my destiny should I have so much pride as to dare to mock this divine Ordering; please humbly excuse my ranting)

So, does anyone have suggestions on how to transform this energy; these natally fixed suicidal tendencies?

Currently my thoughts are my enemy.. they have been since I was a child; grasping at religious philosphy and decidedly welcoming Biblical Armaggaedon if it would end my strangely mature tormented thought
patterning.

So again... I am studying deeply my chironic wound-gifts and my plutonian chart trying to find a place where there is some sense of safety from my own mind contributing to my demise... any suggestions?

p.s. I have one of those birthday books surface as it may seem... they declared my birthday "The Day of Serious Purpose" and told me my mantra should be that "laughter is the best remedy" the day before mine was labelled "The Day of Cosmic Comedy" (darkgloombrooddoom)

__________________________________________________ __

Everything human is pathetic. The secret source of humor itself is not joy but sorrow. There is no humor in heaven. Mark Twain

Stephen 07-09-2012 10:40 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Oyateo,
What we all need to accept is that everything in the universe is perfect Justice.
To take our own lifes is the highest level of arrogance.
Every "seemingly bad" occurance is actually good, to awaken your heart so you use freewill.

Stephen

may28gemini 07-11-2012 12:43 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
claire19, i don't think a person who has mercury conjunct saturn is a negative thinker...that's too simplified. i think people with mercury opp, square, conj saturn are often blamed for being harbingers of doom but because saturn is generally friendly towards mercury by nature, i don't think that aspect contributes to the native to possibly want to take their own lives. saturn is everything concrete and crystal clear. mercury is objective information. mercury-saturn no matter what the aspect relationship will produce a person who thinks in a clear and concrete manner- a matter-of-fact mind, even a materialist, if you will.

suicide is more of an emotional/spiritual crisis of wanting to retreat permanently because the "spirit" can no longer handle the material world. the physical body by nature must strive to survive. saturn is not the material body (mars is) but nonetheless, he is very real and probably the most solid force we have operating within us. saturn is our will to survive within our limitations. if saturn and mercury connected in a natal, there may be periods of gloom but no more than what comes with the territory of life's upsets. if anything, having saturn kick mercury's butt to get back to reality helps the native bounce back quicker than mercuries without saturn's help.

that's just my 2 cents. i have mercury square saturn.

Oyatao 07-15-2012 12:04 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 402904)
Oyateo,
What we all need to accept is that everything in the universe is perfect Justice.
To take our own lifes is the highest level of arrogance.
Every "seemingly bad" occurance is actually good, to awaken your heart so you use freewill.

Stephen


Hey Steven,

I respectfully disagree. The Universe I believe is impartial. There is just as much justice as there is injustice, just as much perfection as there is imperfection, and between all poles exist varying degrees of each.

Was Ceasar Chavez's "suicide" arrogance? How about the monks that set themselves on fire in protest, self-immolation... is that arrogance?

And freewill... ah freewill.. have you read Dostoevesky, Notes from the Undergorund.. It's hilarious and a short and easy read, I reccommend... In anycase yes it is true there exist a "free will" a "free wheel" (on astro.com in fact) in which an infinte amount of possibilities of exercising your will in an infinite number of directions and an infinte degree of varying expressions are available to see. However there is a catch to all that limitless possibility, its called probability (from which we can gather predicatability) and probabilities are finite. In the infinite possibilities of your finite probabilites you find a relationship to reality. And we call that a saturn cycle...

(of which I'm currently experiencing and as you can tell am a little weary in my adjusting... but worry not; my dreary dramatics are meant to be heard with an ear for dark humour--like fml)

noouraz2 03-29-2016 09:29 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
so Neptune means drowning suicide ? if it has bad aspects with other planets and H8???

katydid 03-29-2016 09:39 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by noouraz2 (Post 667927)
so Neptune means drowning suicide ? if it has bad aspects with other planets and H8???

Don't take it literally. Neptune can mean many things. Feeling helpless or feeling hopeful. Feeling inspired, spiritual, or feeling drunk, or high, even delusional.

noouraz2 03-29-2016 02:34 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by katydid (Post 667930)
Don't take it literally. Neptune can mean many things. Feeling helpless or feeling hopeful. Feeling inspired, spiritual, or feeling drunk, or high, even delusional.

Thanks a lot katydid :happy: I understand.

Stella87 01-10-2017 04:36 PM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
[QUOTE=Mr stellium;131499]
> The ruler of the Ascendant is conjunct, square or opposite Mars.

This is true as of my father, who committed suicide 3.5 years ago.
He has mars exactly conjunct saturn in the 12th house, saturn being the ruler of his cap ascendant.
He suffered depression. His identity (sun) and mind (mercury) were opposed by Uranus and squared by Neptune.
He has an empty 8th house, except for the north node, only Jupiter squares the cusp of his 8th house and I don't know what that could mean.

The mars-saturn conjunction is something I've read several times and is true in the case of my father.

vanessanz 06-08-2017 11:03 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
1 Attachment(s)
I have moon in Cancer (in 6th) squaring Neptune in Libra, and have felt like leaving this world for much of my life. Generally, all I have to do is sleep on it, and the next day feels better, even if it isn't! That is, my suicidal feelings have not been fed by rage, and it is those with the rage of blocked energy who tend to go through with it more often than the wussy sensitives like me............................
On the weekend I told my best friend that whenever I've felt like leaving this world, it's not anger or self-hatred which drives me, but a deep need to save myself from any more of what this material world dishes out. I've been motivated by a deep need to save my soul, and to go back to the spirit world where everyone is of value. I can see that this is the ultimate in escapism, so Neptune plays a major role here.[/QUOTE]

Spot on Raven! You precisely articulate what it feels like for me. I have the same Neptune square Moon. To be precise, I have a stationary Neptune in 12th house square Moon / MC conjunction. It's been a wild ride. I've struggled with feeling suicidal since i was a teenager & it's definitely motivated by extreme sensitivity to the ugliness of this world. What's always stopped me is the pain i'd cause those left behind. I can talk about it openly because i feel like i'm no longer so vulnerable to those black holes of hopelessness.
I also think my Saturn square Jupiter has something to do with the vulnerability towards depression, but Moon / Neptune is the extreme skinless sensitivity...

vanessanz 06-08-2017 11:17 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
But I'm a stubborn 8th house ram and I will live gawddamitt in spite of what goes on in my head. Let the universe do the work to murder me; I will not submit willingly! (<--- uh-oh I shant be taunting the heavens I know I'm predestined and upon my head may fall every calamity to urge me into my destiny should I have so much pride as to dare to mock this divine Ordering; please humbly excuse my ranting)

So, does anyone have suggestions on how to transform this energy; these natally fixed suicidal tendencies?

Hi Oya. I had a look at your chart. I think it's pretty unlikely you'll opt out. Give it another 10 years & you'll probably learn to enjoy the wild ride with a degree of amused detachment :) You have Jupiter closely opposite Pluto, which is energy with huge potential, but will also give the big ups & downs. You also have Moon trine Neptune, which will give you the skinless sensitivity to all energy in your vicinity, & your Sun trine Uranus will make you a maverick. I'd suggest you learn to read the energy of your chart really well, then commit to actually using that energy as well as you can. Your chart has plenty of potential for very interesting experiences. Have fun! Enjoy the ride! Vanessa
__________________________________________________ __

Everything human is pathetic. The secret source of humor itself is not joy but sorrow. There is no humor in heaven. Mark Twain [/QUOTE]

R4VEN 06-08-2017 11:56 AM

Re: Suicide - indicators from the natal chart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vanessanz (Post 791092)

So, does anyone have suggestions on how to transform this energy; these natally fixed suicidal tendencies?

Vanessa, I just happened to be online at the time you are posting. (We're in the same hemisphere, and so only a couple of hours difference in time)

I am not sure that energy can be consciously transformed when living a western-style life. My advice to you (given I also possess that wonderful Saturn-ruled chart) is to live your life consciously, and never run away from a challenge. Much wisdom can be gained with such a close relationship with the boundary between life and death, and Cap rising gives you much strength, resilience and stoicism. Your Chiron-Jupiter conjunction can be powerful, granting you energy and optimism, should you find your `voice' in some way.

Your current challenges, I believe, are being presented by transiting Saturn (in 12th, but currently Rx, so forcing you look inwards, rather than to the external world). Saturn tr the 12th house can have you becoming isolated. This can be a lonely time, but this can also have its advantages, if you enjoy your solitude.
Also tr Neptune is currently close to your IC, and so may be stirring up something deep inside you, possibly through issues at home, or within the home you live in. It is possible (only possible, as I cannot be certain about the messages Neptune is bringing you) that you could be tuning in to some kind of suffering or wounding from your line of female heredity. Neptune is also beginning to oppose your natal Moon, so depression may result at this time, but keep in mind that this is not some random low mood. There is "something" trying to reach your conscious mind, so pay attention to your dreaming life, and your impressions from the world around you. This is a difficult time for you, but not without its uses. You are likely to be feeling low in energy as well as mood. Go with it, and do not fight it, but nor should you wallow in it. What is the message within? What are you being shown/told? Sometimes the words of a random stranger can hit home for you, or the words of a song, or a late night movie you see on TV can speak to you. Your boundaries are rather thin at this time, so be careful who you have in your personal space, as you may be more vulnerable that usual until transiting Neptune moves away from your IC, and then from opposing your Moon.

Added to everything I have mentioned above, you are also experiencing the Neptune square, and this is the time when your boundaries are rather loose, and you may have ideas and desires which are unrealistic and a bit fanciful. Keep your feet on the ground during this transit.

R


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