Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

What is your opinion on out of sign aspects. For example, let's say you have the sun at 29 degrees Aries and let's say you have Mars at 1 degree Leo. They form a square aspect but the signs they are in trine each other. So would this be a valid square?

I am of the opinion that aspects by sign take precedence while out of sign aspects are secondary in nature. I believe that this configuration would have some features of a trine and some features of a square, but the trinal features would predominate.

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

I think they are still valid and here is why. I have Neptune in late Libra and the Sun @ zero Scorpio. So that is an out of sign conjunction. Does it still work?

I say yes, because no matter what sign they are in, the geometric patterns they make create aspects to other planets.

And when Saturn went over those two planets, I felt it simultaneously, no matter which sign was involved at the time.

In other words, I think it has more to do with mathematics, geometric patterns and numbers than it does signs,

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

Same for me because I have a moon square Pluto, which according to your theory should be moon trine pluto. The degrees matter a whole lot.

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

I think of the aspects between signs as symbolic of their relationship with one another. However, that shouldn't be confused with aspects between planets within the signs. Planets in aspect show the relationship between those planets within the chart, not the relationship between the signs.

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

Thank you for your response. I know that conjunctions depend on the energy of the two planets involved. Conjunctions involving Neptune tend to blur lines and dissolve boundaries. For your case, it may be a matter of where does Neptune in Libra end and the sun in Scorpio begin? I would be interested in seeing if two divisive planets involved in that type of conjunction would behave more like two planets in aversion to each other. For example, let's say someone has Saturn at 29 degrees Libra and Mars at 1 degree Scorpio. I would say due to the nature of both Mars and Saturn and the two radically different energies of the signs involved, they would behave more like two planets in aversion rather than a conjunction.

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

Think of it like there are no walls between the signs. There is no gap or wall or any other change between signs. People with their Sun at 29 degrees they look like to be on the transition step. They are much of the 29th degree sign and a little of the new one. The progressed planet will enter the new sign whatever it takes and they start to absorb the new sign's quality. Think of it as that the 0 degree of every sign contains much of the quality of the previous sign and a new unfamiliar quality that should be ingested. The square in your example was exact in the first year of that baby. That means that the baby doesn't have inhibited the quality of that aspect by birth but had forced to learn that. I dare to say that this aspect could be stronger because the planets are in critical degrees and the signline seems irrelevant.

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

Charles Carter said that dissonances would get less problematic, and harmonies less harmonic. And that while zodiac assonance has relative importance in confront with aspects and planets, it cannot be eluded without going to the wrong conclusions.
I find this to have its meaning. When I was seeing nativities corrispondence with the actual life, people who had the sesquisquare in signs of the same element: the matter was quite slight, for this sesquisquare was largely harmonized.
Most peculiar example: I had known a girl with Mars-Jupiter trine (Mars-Capricorn and Jupiter-Aries): almost it was actually a square. A general conceit (which if you are watching the nativity, you would not detect by any part except this aspect). And an habit of quick oscillation between weight gain and weight loss. Most of all, the aspect seemed to have taken shape with her boyfriend: prone to huge money waste, indulgence in drink and sigarettes and pleasure, ... They consume stuff like clothes, money, musical instruments... most of the times, just for the sake of it. My consideration: treat them as 'in-between' aspects, as just Carter said. For you will get actual evidence of this by observing (instead of just plunging endlessly in theory).

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

It really depends upon whom you ask. A lot of traditional western astrologers would discount them, but they are generally accepted in modern western astrology. They do work differently, however. In the example you gave, the tension of the square and the assertiveness of the sun and Mars are heightened by two planets in fire signs.

Watch out!

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

I have also wondered this. By sign I should have Mars Square Sun and, to a point, the cookbook definition does describe the aspect. But by degree I simply do not. My sun sits at 4 degrees Cancer while my Mars at 18 degrees Aries.

T'is a wonder to me still.

I had thought that Traditional astrology focused on the signs and not degrees. Was I wrong?

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

"I have also wondered this. By sign I should have Mars Square Sun and, to a point, the cookbook definition does describe the aspect. But by degree I simply do not. My sun sits at 4 degrees Cancer while my Mars at 18 degrees Aries. "


It is much more intense and critical when an aspect is within a tight orb by degrees. THe reason is that it is then triggered at the same time by transits and synastry.

If your Sun is at an 90 degree angle, making a square numerically, and not just by sign, then other planets in transit will hit them simultaneously. And people with Venus on your Sun will have it square your Mars, simultaneously. It packs a bigger wallop when it is in a tight orb.

There is a bit of an effect, having a 'square' by sign. But it is not nearly as impactful, in my opinion.

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

Well, just try to observe in actual life. Many times, actuality rectifies boundless theory.

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

It depends upon which traditional astrologer you follow. Today I think most of them would use a blend, with only major in-sign aspects allowed, but degrees definitely matter. That's why they talk about orbs and moieties.

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

To expand on this:

That is a somewhat different question. Planets in a sign that is squared or trine (for example): do they operate in relation to one another as a square or trine? That is a great way to interpret the energies of the planets in a general sense, but seems way too generous for interpreting aspects.

Where the muddy waters are to me is what does it mean to say an aspect is "stronger" or "weaker" to the native after considering orbs, in-sign or out-of-sign, etc.?

Re: Are out of sign aspects valid?
 

I think strength or weakness of an aspect depends upon the orb, not on whether it is in- or out-of-sign. A partile square is going to be felt strongly, regardless of the sign placements, whereas a wide-orb trine will be more "vanilla" in its effect, even when in-sign.

Each will manifest differently according to sign and house.