William Lilly's indications of a violent death.Do they work?

BobZemco

Well-known member
Another interesting thing is that Mercury can also kill.But hey,suicide sounds like a "mercurian" death(even though the way he died is totally a Mars/Aries method,gunshot to the head),but it fits into the "Mercury can cause death by madness" thing.In the chart of Eric Harris(one of the columbine killers), who also commited suicide by a gunshot to the head, the ruler of the Part of Death is Mars in Aries(Aries=head,and a violent sign) and his 4th sect triplicity ruler and 8th ruler are both Mercury in Aries as well.How more representative can this get?

It's surprizing that he survived the Hyleg directions to Mars and Saturn,but no wonder his will to live was already affected after this.

Obviously you've got some of the indicators down. Okay, the answer to that is you always look for confirmation in the Profections and Solar Returns. Confirm, confirm and confirm some more.

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The Natal Chart is a Night Chart, and the 4th House is Sagittarius, which makes the Triplicity Ruler Jupiter (who rules Fire at Night). Here in the Profection Chart you see that Sagittarius has come to the Ascendant, and that makes Jupiter the Year Ruler.

Now, Profections are cyclic; they happen every 12 years, because it's just a repeating cycle. His Profection Cycle would go Gemini, Cancer, Leo..through the Signs back to Gemini, then "Lather, Rinse, Repeat."

So that wasn't the first time his Sagittarius Profection came to be.

You'll notice the Planets in the Profection Chart square all the Planets in the Natal Chart. Of course they do. Planets will be inconjunct, sextile, square, trine, inconjunct then in opposition before repeating the cycle in reverse (inconjunct, trine, square, sextile then inconjunct) before coming back to the Natal Ascendant.

So this was at first glance a trying year for him with all the squares in his Profection Chart, but we all go through that. Obviously, some people have an easier go at it than others. Why is that? You have to look at the condition of the Planets in the Natal Chart, and then look at the Solar Return. Some people have all the Planets in their Natal Chart in excellent condition and their Solar Returns are beautiful and the worst thing that happens to them is they spill their milk on their clothes.

So how is Jupiter in the Natal Chart?

At first glance, beautiful. Jupiter is Exalted in Cancer, in a Succedent House, in the 11th House of the Good Demon, about to receive Moon by Exaltation in a conjunction, in a trine with Perfect Reception to Venus and Saturn in Pisces. The only thing negative about Jupiter is that he is Retrograde.

Sounds great, right?

No. Jupiter is Out-of-Sect. He his a Day Planet in a Night Chart Above Horizon. You should never see Jupiter (or Saturn) Above Horizon in a Night Chart. Not only is Jupiter up in the night sky, he is in a Masculine Planet in an Feminine Sign and Feminine House (the 11th House IS a Masculine House but we count from the Sun who is always the first house -- not the 1st House -- and every other House is Masculine).

Jupiter is not a Benefic in this Chart and Jupiter is totally contrary to what he should be; that is to say Jupiter is not what he appears to be. You've heard the term "Pious Hypocrite" like the reverend who preaches God then goes and has sex with a prostitute, snorts cocaine then molests young boys.

A Planet that is Out-of-Sect (and Saturn is also Out-of-Sect) is corrupted; contrary to its own signification; doing things it should not be doing; doing things that are totally inappropriate.

And the other thing I mentioned is that Jupiter is in a Pitted Degree. That appears in texts also as Welled Degrees (most of the Latin texts as Deep Degrees).

The meaning of a Planet in a Pitted Degree you can figure out from these old sayings:

1) You've made your bed; now you have to lie in it.
2) You dug your own grave
3) You've painted yourself into a corner and now you're trapped
4) You dug yourself into a hole (a pit) and now you can't get out of the hole

Of the Benefics (Venus and Jupiter), Venus can never be Malefic, but Jupiter can. I wouldn't say Jupiter is a Malefic here, he's more like an "Infortune." If Jupiter would be Peregrine, then I would say Jupiter is probably a Malefic in this Chart.

Now that you know that, let's look at his Solar Return:

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So Jupiter is the Year Ruler of the Profection Chart. Which Sign has come to the Ascendant in the Solar Return?

The 8th Sign/House.

The fact that the Natal 8th House has come to the Ascendant of the Solar Return is not enough to confirm Death.

But look where Jupiter is.

Jupiter is the Profectional Year Ruler, and he is also the Sect Triplicity Ruler of the 4th House in the Natal Chart (a significator of Death) and Jupiter is in the 8th House and at 14° Scorpio, Jupiter is Peregrine.

Now we MUST pay attention to this Chart because we have 3 indicators of Death in addition to our Primary Direction.

What is the condition of Mercury, the Natal Ascendant Ruler in the Solar Return Chart?

Absolutely horrid. Mercury is in Detriment; Mercury is Retrograde; Mercury is Peregrine; Mercury is Cadent; Mercury is in the 12th House; and to top it off, Mercury is Combust the Sun.

A few more things, the Lot of Death in the Solar Return Chart is in Scorpio, the Sun is in the 12th House, it is in aspect with Mercury and not received with Perfect Reception, and that makes Sun an Accidental Malefic, and it also makes Mercury an Accidental Malefic

So, all of those things together are sufficient for us to predict Death.

One other thing I want to point out is Transits. Transits are totally useless. I have to laugh at all the people who fuss and muss over Transits in the Transit sub-forum.

They waste so much time on nothing, and even that wouldn't be so bad, except they can't even interpret the Transits correctly. As you can see from the Transit Chart, there is absolutely nothing happening very slowly. This Chart has ZERO indicators of Death. There aren't even any aspects except for Transiting Jupiter Retrograde separating from Moon.

That's why we don't use Transits. They're worthless and a total waste of time. Everything you need to know, Marriage, Divorce, Child-Birth, Career, Death of Parents, Death of Siblings, Fame, Fortune, Gain of Wealth, Loss of Wealth, Injury, Illness and Death you can get from Primary Directions.


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Lost_spirit

Well-known member
That's all very well said and explained,and thank you.However..
BobZemco said:
One other thing I want to point out is Transits. Transits are totally useless. I have to laugh at all the people who fuss and muss over Transits in the Transit sub-forum.

They waste so much time on nothing, and even that wouldn't be so bad, except they can't even interpret the Transits correctly. As you can see from the Transit Chart, there is absolutely nothing happening very slowly. This Chart has ZERO indicators of Death. There aren't even any aspects except for Transiting Jupiter Retrograde separating from Moon.

...I'm not sure about this.Yes,I agree that transits can't predict death,but when primary directions show death,a heavy transit at that time could help in making the death more extraordinary,if you can use this word for a death.If you include Uranus,Neptune,Pluto,you'll see that transiting Pluto is in an applying square to his Sun.Using wider orbs,Saturn is separating from a conjunction to his Sun.While all these don't point to death necessarily,they act as backgroung influences at the time of death.

Don't get me wrong,I just think that the slow moving planets have a wider orb of influence.The charts I've seen where mostly of young people who were murdered,had an accident or illness,and in the majority of cases Saturn,Uranus,Neptune or Pluto were in an afflicting transit to one or more of their inner planets/points,Asc,Sun,Moon,Venus,Mars,Mercury,with an orb no more than 7 degrees.

Again,I'm not saying these transits predicted their death.I'm just stating some observations.
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
That's all very well said and explained,and thank you.However..


...I'm not sure about this.Yes,I agree that transits can't predict death,but when primary directions show death,a heavy transit at that time could help in making the death more extraordinary,if you can use this word for a death.If you include Uranus,Neptune,Pluto,you'll see that transiting Pluto is in an applying square to his Sun.Using wider orbs,Saturn is separating from a conjunction to his Sun.While all these don't point to death necessarily,they act as backgroung influences at the time of death.

Don't get me wrong,I just think that the slow moving planets have a wider orb of influence.The charts I've seen where mostly of young people who were murdered,had an accident or illness,and in the majority of cases Saturn,Uranus,Neptune or Pluto were in an afflicting transit to one or more of their inner planets/points,Asc,Sun,Moon,Venus,Mars,Mercury,with an orb no more than 7 degrees.

Again,I'm not saying these transits predicted their death.I'm just stating some observations.

Well, the problem with that is here is what Robert Hand has to say: (from his book Planets in Transit: Life Cycles for Living):

[I said:
Robert Hand -- Planets in Transit: Life Cycles for Living[/I]]Transiting Pluto sextile Natal Uranus
You will be able to live more richly and fully…The new insights you gain will also bring you the ability to use talents and ingenuity that you may not have known you had…This is a favorable time to embark upon any new study…This is also a favorable period for doing any kind of psychological work.

….trine Natal Saturn
A related effect is tht persons in authority in business or government may give you considerable power to reorganize a structure at some level. You may also become concerned with social reform in various ways.

…trine Natal Venus
This transit emphasizes the creative and romantic aspects of your life. Venus’ ability to bring love and artistic creativity are given great power by the trine from Pluto.

…trine Natal Jupiter
You will be increasingly interested in subjects that encompass a larger view of the world, such as law, religion, philosophy and metaphysics…This is an extremely favorable time for any dealings with law or with persons in authority. Your generosity is great….

…conjunct Natal Neptune
This transit signifies a period of very deep inward transformation that will be reflected in changed ideals, goals and many other aspects of your world view.

Transiting Neptune sextile Natal Neptune
This is a time of new awakening…

….trine Natal Uranus
Your intuition will be enormously heightened at this time…you may become involved in a religious or spiritual movement that works for social reform….

….sextile Natal Saturn
At this time the ideal and the real are well balanced in your life…

….sextile Natal Venus
This transit stimulates your creative imagination and is likely to put you into a very pleasant and dreamy frame of mind, in which you will be capable of great creativity…

Transiting Uranus trine Natal Uranus
At this time you are likely to make significant changes in your life in order to achieve more perfect self-expression.

..sextile Natal Saturn
During this transit you have the opportunity to make creative changes through a system.

…opposition Jupiter
If you have been putting up with a tense and strained situation but not getting any benefit from it, you will break free of the tension now and probably experience an enormous sense of relief.

…sextile Venus
This transit will considerably enliven your social life and relationships.

Imagine if you would be Kurt Cobain's father or mother and you just paid $400 to have the grand-poobah guru himself of Modern Astrology tell you about the upcoming Transits in April for your son.

Everything is beautiful, peachy, wonderful, doves flying birds singing, rainbows, unicorns and ponies, gag me with a spoon.

And then a few days later your son killed himself.

You would probably be saying really nasty mean things about Mr. Hand and astrology.

The only thing Modern Astrology provides that's remotely applicable is:

Uranus opposition Jupiter If you have been putting up with a tense and strained situation but not getting any benefit from it, you will break free of the tension now and probably experience an enormous sense of relief.


I guess he did "break free of the tension" when he painted the walls of his garage with his brains, but I'd have to question whether he experienced "an enormous sense of relief."


That's why I quit Modern Astrology and switched to Traditional. I would like a straight answer from the charts, without a lot of useless fluff talking in circles.


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Lost_spirit

Well-known member
Yeah,that transit report looks kind of funny.Creativity,transformation,awakening,and then some more creativity,everything's sooo nice.. These are very generalized.Someone doesn't even need astrology to understand that he was an unhappy man,and sooner or later he would kill himself,if you listen to his songs.His choises also scream that he is self destructive,from his love life to his drug abuse.

..which makes me look like an idiot in many of my previous threads,asking for advice in particular transits.Sometimes I know the answer to my questions,yet I ask cause I want to hear it so bad from someone else.

And that's why I never look at sites that interpret each transit seperately,instead of looking at the big picture.But then again,no site can give you the big picture,you just give your data and get pre-made interpretations.

Well,what can I say,you never stop learning new stuff with astrology.
 

dperez3894

Well-known member
For anyone not familiar with these indications,you may want to check "Chistian astrology Book 3" or the following article http://www.astrologyedmonton.com/Newsletters/Jan2007.pdf

What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.

Back in Jr. High, one of my classmates was struck and killed by a drunk driver. I recently ran the classmates chart and found;

His progressed Saturn was at 29 Degrees 35 Minutes Taurus and conjunct the Pleiades in the 8th House.

On the day he was killed, Chiron was exactly conjunct his natal sun.
 

Lost_spirit

Well-known member
Back in Jr. High, one of my classmates was struck and killed by a drunk driver. I recently ran the classmates chart and found;

His progressed Saturn was at 29 Degrees 35 Minutes Taurus and conjunct the Pleiades in the 8th House.

On the day he was killed, Chiron was exactly conjunct his natal sun.

Thank you for your response!It's an interesting observation,but you have to understand that these configurations alone did not cause his death,there must have been something heavier going on at that time,basically by primary directions.Read the above posts by Bobzemco,they are very helpful in understanding Primary Directions.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
Hi,

luminaries afflicted in house 8th which is also the house of re-generation or longivity.....i dont know but i have a whole bunch of planets in 8th house : Jupiter, saturn, SUN,pluto,mercury and moon is in 7th house.

Will they cause violent death ?

A stellium in the 8th house doesnt portend a violent death unless Mars and Pluto are somehow involved and not always then. Neptune can also herald death as can Uranus. But have to be contacting personal planets. Each chart must be taken by its own merits and potentials.

THe transits will herald violent death only if there is a promise of that in the natal chart. The 12th house is also one for death or passing over. THe 1st for some event in childhood or the immediate environment, the 3rd for whilst travelling in the local area, through a sibling or neighbour. The fourth for death at home or by mother, the 6th through some disease or accident at work. The 7th through or by a partner or a member of the public. THe 9th whilst travelling abroad, The 10th death by your boss, father or other authority figure. The 11th with some kind of computerisation or whilst air travelling for instance. So you see there are many scenarios..

It is easier to see in hindsight what may have caused a violent demise.
 
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LonelyRed

Banned
I find this all very interesting as well, considering that death is a subject I haven't considered broaching too deeply, as someone who has more experience in "Modern Astrology," and doesn't know too much about the more traditional stuff. I am just young, and have had only about ten years experiences with being even able to handle Astrology, so I don't have anything against, so-to-speak, other kinds of Astrology, I just have only had most significant exposure to Modern.

With that said, I have a question about Hylegs, since I've just been reading and following along somewhat. This post may get moved, which is fine, I just thought I'd post it here, since BobZemco seems to be very familiar with this term, and his references.

My questions are then, as follows, BobZemco, you mentioned that part of the formula used to deduce when a death can occur, which involved finding the Hyleg, according to I believe Ptolemy or Lilly (or Lilly using Ptolemy), included the pre-natal New Moon. I did some research of my own, admittedly very brief, about Hylegs, and it said the prenatal component could be either the New Moon or Full Moon. As I am reading this, I just want to know what you think of that, is that still what William Lilly says? Does Lilly say anything about what happens when the person is born on the new moon? (Or full moon, if appropriate).
 

LonelyRed

Banned
was my question too off-topic and that was why no one answered?

I wanted to know what to make of a Hyleg if one was born on the Full Moon or New Moon.
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
I copied these questions from another thread (because there were too many questions to answer in one sitting) and saved it to Word to answer later, but here are some answers to some of the questions (I can no longer find the thread).

When looking at the Profections and Solar Returns, what do you want see?
Confirmation of the symbolism.
What makes an astrologer say "this is the year"?
A confluence of confirmation.
What is the nature of the testimonies?
Depends on the Planets involved.
Did the past astrologers use the same system?
Primary Directions. What is this? Is this a modern thing or was this practiced by the ancients?
The technique is several thousand years old.

There’s nothing hard about it. Unfortunately, there is no software available, and I would caution you that software that claims to do it is wrong, if not by method then by math. For example, Janus claims to do Primary Directions, but they are FUBAR and totally useless so don’t waste your time. The key is just becoming proficient in the math (which appears daunting but really isn’t), learning the symbolism, knowing the significators and understanding why things work the way they do.

Probably the easiest way to do Primary Directions is to cover them with each of the 14 Judgments or Topics you cover, starting with Life-Span/Longevity. Determine the Almuten for each Topic, read the Chart, then do your Primary Directions. For example, calculate the Almuten of the Father, Almuten of the Mother, then look at their relationship and their relationship with the Ascendant Ruler to see how everyone gets along, then look at your Primary Directions to see what happens to the Native’s parents up to and including Death (and beyond – and yes after they die they can still have Directions in your Chart signifying events, like maybe the wing of a library dedicated in their name, or a memorial or scholarship fund established in their name or something like that).

Here’s a chart with a sad story.


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The first thing is find the Hyleg/Hilaj/Releaser or whatever you want to call it. I call it the Life Ruler. There are no Planets Above Horizon and this is a Night Chart so that means the Hyleg/Life Ruler is either the Ascendant or the Lot of Fortune. Since Moon has separated from a conjunction of the Sun and is moving toward the opposition (Full Moon position) that makes this a Conjunctional Chart and the Ascendant is the Hyleg/Life-Ruler. If the Moon would be separating from the opposition to the Sun and moving toward the conjunction (New Moon position), then the Chart would be Preventional and the Lot of Fortune would automatically be the Hyleg/Life Ruler.

So the Ascendant here plays a dual role, it is not only the significator of the Native’s health and things that happen to the Native, but it is also the determiner in the Natives’ Life Span. What we want to do now is use Ascensional Times and Symbolic Directions to narrow down the time frame for any accidents or events that will happen to the Native. The most obvious feature to see symbolically is Ascendant opposition the Lot of Death.

The opposition occurs at 9° Aquarius, but the Ascendant enters the Term of Mercury at 6° Aquarius. Is the Ascendant protected or is it naked? You have a naked Ascendant here. The Planets cast their “rays” in 7 directions. “Rays” is an ancient term that comes to us from the Sumerians. Enuma elish… mentions the Planets ensnaring each other with their “rays” and the oldest known text (partial text on broken tablets) dates back to 5,700 BCE. The 7 “rays” are cast to the sinister sextile, sinister square, sinister trine, opposition, dexter trine, dexter square and dexter sextile.

Note that none are cast in the "conjunction."

None of the Benefics cast their “rays” at 9° Aquarius. Likewise, none of the Malefics do either. However, the Ascendant is in the Term of Mercury, and Mercury, while not Malefic here, is Unfortunate being Peregrine and Retrograde (being Peregrine makes Mercury weak, but being Retrograde makes him Unfortunate and weaker still), and the Term is in opposition to the Lot of Death.

To determine the age of the Native here, we need to know the Oblique Ascension of the Ascendant and of 6° Aquarius. There’s a web-site that will calculate those for any Latitude (you can enter 2000 as the year since the Obliquity of the Ecliptic only change a few Seconds of Arc every so many years – in 1938 the Obliquity was 23° 26' 50" just to give you an idea) .

http://www.antonblog.net/tool/generator.html

If I have any doubts about my calculations, I check my tables against his tables and his tables are spot on.

At 6° Aquarius the Oblique Ascension is 321°38’ and the Ascending Degree is 270°55’ and all we do is subtract them.

321°38’
270°55’
----------
xxxxxxx

320°98’
270°55’
----------
050°43’

So the Ascendant enters the Term of Mercury in about August 1988 and during the time the Ascendant moves through the Term of Mercury, the Native may be subject to serious accident or injury, or even death.

But, we need confirmation and so we look at the Profectional Charts to see what is happening. In 1989, the Profected Ascendant is Pisces:

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If Sagittarius is the Rising Sign, then a Profected Ascendant with Pisces rising would indicate that all Profected Planets are in square with the Natal Planets. That could indicate a year of conflict ranging from just minor irritations the entire year to a total catastrophe, or it could be a year of major challenges.

Since Jupiter is the Year Ruler, we need to look at Jupiter’s condition in the Chart. Jupiter is Peregrine, Cadent, Fast, Occidental, Diurnal, in a Masculine Sign and Degree, in a Feminine Quarter and not impeded by any Planets, nor in aspect to any Planets.

Overall, Jupiter is weak and only mildly Benefic here. One other thing, Jupiter is Feral. I don’t have a lot of experience with Feral Planets, since they are rare. As you can see, it requires that all Planets be in aversion (inconjunct) to the Feral Planet.

That (a Feral Planet), is the original “singleton.” Anything else is just an amateurish imitation.

Once you know the condition of the Year Ruler in the Natal Chart, you simply compare it to its condition in the Solar Return Chart. Year Ruler well-placed in the Natal Chart and Solar Return = Good year. Year Ruler badly placed in the Natal Chart and Solar Return = Bad year. Year Ruler in good condition in the Natal Chart but badly placed in the Solar Return = Not so good year. Year Ruler in bad condition in Natal Chart but in good in the Solar Return = Life is a little better than usual.

Just starting out you can use 30° per year for your Profections, but as you get more advanced, you’ll want to do Profections the correct way using Oblique Ascension. Again, unfortunately, there is no software that correctly calculates Profections, so you’ll have to do it by hand or using a spread-sheet.

Add the double Diurnal Hours of the Ascendant to the Oblique Ascension. The Diurnal Hour is 12°16’ for that Latitude. Sumerian Star Lists measured the distance between Stars in 3 ways, and one way was by Double Hours. I think what they were doing is measuring the arc between two Stars using Double Diurnal Hours (or Double Nocturnal Hours as the case might be).

270° 55' = 15° Sag 45'
295° 27' = 07° Cap 56'
319° 59' = 04° Aqu 01'
344° 31' = 06° Pis 35'
09° 03' = 13° Ari 54'
33° 35' = 18° Tau 08'
58° 07' = 15° Gem 45'

When you cross the Descendant, you’ll have to use the double Nocturnal Hours (17°43’ * 2) .

93° 33' = 18° Can 06'
128° 59' = 17° Leo 28'
164° 25' = 16° Vir 54'
199° 51' = 16° Lib 43'
235° 17' = 16° Sco 18'

And that brings us back to 15° Sag 45’

1 = 15° Sag 45'
2 = 07° Cap 56'
3 = 04° Aqu 01'
4 = 06° Pis 35'
5 = 13° Ari 54'
6 = 18° Tau 08'
7 = 15° Gem 45'
8 = 18° Can 06'
9 = 17° Leo 28'
10 = 16° Vir 54'
11 = 16° Lib 43'
12 = 16° Sco 18'

There appears to be a problem because…

(1) 1987 = 15° Sag 45'
(2) 1988 = 07° Cap 56'
(3) 1989 04° Aqu 01'
(4) 1990 = 06° Pis 35'

…it would seem Aquarius is the Profected Ascendant making Saturn the Year Ruler in 1989 instead of Pisces/Jupiter.

But that isn’t so. If you look, you see that the Profected Year for 1990 starts at 06° Pisces. Since the birth date is January 6, that means Pisces took over sometime in late November or early December of 1989. That means Saturn handed off the Year Ruler to Jupiter in the very last part of 1989 as the Profected Ascendant entered Pisces.

So let’s look at the Solar Return:


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Year Ruler Jupiter is Cadent, Peregrine, Retrograde, in the Term of a Malefic (Mars) and in trine to the Sun without Reception. Jupiter is Unfortunate and weak. Note the Sun who is the Dispositor of the Lot of Death in the Natal Chart is conjunct the Lot of Death in the Solar Return. Note that Saturn rules the 8th House, Venus is the first Triplicity Ruler of the 4th House and that Saturn and Venus are conjunct each other’s Antiscia Point.

Mercury is the Ascendant Ruler in the Solar Return Chart and the Directed Ascendant is in the Term of Mercury in the Natal Chart. Mercury is Peregrine and Retrograde so he’s Unfortunate in the Natal Chart.

In the Solar Return Chart, Mercury is Peregrine, Out-of-Sect, Cadent, in the Term of a Malefic (Saturn) and worse than that, conjunct his own North Node at 3° Aqu. Mercury is extremely Unfortunate here.

One other thing. The placement of the Year Ruler determines how active the year is. When the Year Ruler is inconjunct the Ascendant, it will not be an active year. Given than he spent 95% of the year in a coffin, I would say he wasn’t exactly a busy bee that year.

So we have our confirmation.

Now, we need to see if there are any Primary Directions that would indicate death. There are two. One is Mars to the body of Sun and the other is Moon square Jupiter.

We’ll do Moon square Jupiter first. Moon is the Significator, and the Jupiter Square Point is the promise. There are two points from which Jupiter forms a square and that is 3° Scorpio (the converse Direction) and 3° Taurus (the direct Direction – in the order of Signs) We’ll use 3° Taurus.

Right Ascension of 3° Tau 54’ is 31.65319°
Oblique Ascension is 22.80533°
Declination is 12.82242°
Ascensional Difference (RA – OA) = 8.84786°
That makes the Semi-Diurnal Arc 98.84786°
Meridian Distance (RAIC – RA) is 30.70517°
Semi-Diurnal Arc divided by 6 gives us a Temporal Hour of 16.47464°
Meridian Distance divided by the Temporal Hour gives us the Hourly Distance: 1.86378°

Now it’s just a matter of plugging in the numbers.

Arc of Direction = Hourly Distance (Jupiter Square Point) – Hourly Distance (Moon) * Temporal Hours (Jupiter Square Point)

Arc of Direction = (1.86378 + 1.28833) * 16.47464

Arc of Direction = 3.15211 * 16.47464

Arc of Direction = 51.92987

Sun we’ll move in Mundo to the square of Mars (I don't think I've covered in Mundo Directions yet).

The square point of Mars is 6 Hours away (1 House away is inconjunct; 2 Houses away is sextile; and 3 Houses away is square -- each House equals 2 Hours) at 11° Gemini. How long does it take Sun to travel to that point? We’ll take the Hourly Distance of Mars, add 6 Hours then subtract the Hourly Distance of the Sun, then multiply that by the Sun’s Temporal Hours.

Arc of Direction = [Hourly Distance (Mars) + Aspect Point – Hourly Distance (Sun)] * Temporal Hours (Sun)

Arc of Direction = 1.11331 + 6 – 4.18057 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 7.11331 – 4.18057 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 2.93274 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 51.95216

Okay, so those are pretty close.

Moon square Jupiter works out to:

51.92987

51 years + 0.92987 * 12 (months) =

51 years 11 months + 0.15844 * 30.5 (days) =

51 years 11 months 4 days

The date of birth is Jan 6 so add 11 months and we get December 6 then add 4 days and we get December 10.

Sun square Mars works out to:

51 years + 0.95216 * 12 (months) =

51 years 11 months + 0.42592 * 30.5 (days) =

51 years 11 months 12 days

Again since the birth is Jan 6 we add 11 months to get to December 6 then add 12 days which is December 18

So our Directions gives us December 10 and December 18.

I do not in any way condone the use of Pukipedia, but suffice to say:

On December 11, 1989, Lindsay committed suicide with a rifle blast to his head. He was 51
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Crosby

This guy was the son of Bing Crosby, the famous crooner, you know "White Christmas" and then all of those "On the Road to....[wherever]" films with Bob Hope.

If you notice, the Lot of Wealth is square Mercury and Venus and the Almuten of Wealth Saturn is inconjunct the Lot.

I don't really want to get into that, because I'm going to do that on another thread, but he never really had it like the Old Man. His career never got off the ground really. Both his parents were alcoholics and his mother died of alcoholism early on, and being a "mama's boy" never got over it.

He wasn't poor by any stretch of the imagination, but he never made the money his father did.

A few points in the Natal Chart that can be addressed further. Jupiter is the Almuten of Death. I use the method by Abu Bakr, Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi. That is the 7th House, 8th House, 8th House Ruler, Sect Ruler 4th House Cusp, Lot of Death, Dispositor Lot of Death, and Saturn.

I've tried using Bonatti's (and I believe he uses Omar's method) but it just doesn't work.

In addition to being the Almuten of Death, Jupiter rules the 4th House, Moon rules the 8th House and Mars is the Sect Triplicity Ruler of both the 4th and 8th House (and Mercury rules the 7th House).

If you note in the Natal chart you see the Moon/Mars aspect and then you see it again in the Solar Return.

What is the symbolism of Moon/Mars?

I really hope no one makes me barf all over the place with something so stupid and so silly as “emotions and energy.”

Moon/Mars is change, or alteration or ending, usually sudden or abrupt.

Look at this chart:


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You see the Moon/Mars aspect when the National Football League Players Association Collective Bargaining Agreement ended and was not renewed.

Note here that Mercury is the Sect Triplicity Ruler for the 4th Sign, Aquarius and that Moon/Mars are actually in the 5th Sign/House (sports, public venues, entertainment etc etc).

Here’s the Aries Ingress for the US for 1963. President Kennedy was assassinated that year.



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Mars rules the Midheaven and is conjunct the Descendant with Moon Unfortunate because of the South Node conjunct the Ascendant opposing Mars.

Gotta love astrology.

So, let’s put aside the childish goofiness with “emotions and energy” and start using the adult symbolism. You'll see that a lot, if not in Natal Charts then in Solar Returns and Mundane Charts.

Anyway that should give you an idea of how to put things together. I was having a PM discussion about Feral Planets and was distraught because I searched and couldn't find any so I had to make one up, then yesterday I came across this chart with the Feral Jupiter and saw the Moon/Mars thing and just had to look at it.
 

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Lost_spirit

Well-known member
Hey Bobzemco,I haven't had the time to be in the forum or "investigate" on the subject for a while cause I've been busy working,but I wanted to thank you for your input to this thread,it means a lot.I will give it a better look when I get the chance.
 

Zaphod

Well-known member
What is the symbolism of Moon/Mars?

I really hope no one makes me barf all over the place with something so stupid and so silly as “emotions and energy.”

Moon/Mars is change, or alteration or ending, usually sudden or abrupt.

That would actually make your point rather succinctly (and memorably!)

Moon rules stomach, Mars provides irritation, upset. (Perhaps after partaking of a bit too much Venus and Jupiter. ) Et voila: barf! (Just don't do it in the 4th House, you'll never get it off the carpet!) :)
 

secsaba

New member
This is a Night Chart, so Sun cannot be Hyleg. There are no Planets that have the required Dignity in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon (28° Cancer) or the Lot of Fortune. The Moon is in the 8th House and cannot be Hyleg, so it automatically falls to the Lot of Fortune, who isn't exactly up to the task.

For night chart Ptolemy method is:
1. The Moon, if it is found in a hylegiacal place.
2. If it is not, the Sun (this can be only in the first house or just below the horizon in the west with 5 degree orb)
3. If it is not, than the planet which is in hylegiacal place and has at least three kind of dignity in the Moon, prenatal Full-Moon and the Lot of Fortune place.
4. If it is not and the birth was preceded by a Full Moon then the Lot of Fortune is the hyleg.
5. If the birth was preceded by a New Moon then the Ascendant is the hyleg.

In the cart of Roger Chaffee as the birth was preceded by a New Moon the Ascendant should be the hyleg and NOT the Lot of Fortune as stated.

How this will affect the length of life calculation of Roger's chart?

F.E.Robbins translation of the Tetrabiblos page 279.
 

DreamingTheSeas

Well-known member
For night chart Ptolemy method is:
1. The Moon, if it is found in a hylegiacal place.
2. If it is not, the Sun (this can be only in the first house or just below the horizon in the west with 5 degree orb)
3. If it is not, than the planet which is in hylegiacal place and has at least three kind of dignity in the Moon, prenatal Full-Moon and the Lot of Fortune place.
4. If it is not and the birth was preceded by a Full Moon then the Lot of Fortune is the hyleg.
5. If the birth was preceded by a New Moon then the Ascendant is the hyleg.

In the cart of Roger Chaffee as the birth was preceded by a New Moon the Ascendant should be the hyleg and NOT the Lot of Fortune as stated.

How this will affect the length of life calculation of Roger's chart?

F.E.Robbins translation of the Tetrabiblos page 279.

Finally another person (besides Bobzemco) with knowledge in Ptolemy's! work!!!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Finally another person (besides Bobzemco) with knowledge in Ptolemy's! work!!!
And we also have Ominisphericus :smile:
Because the discussion led to Ptomlomy's method maybe its time to give attention to this method of finding the H & A.
It seems out that his method is more complicated than the rest.

I will first quote some summaries of the method of Ptolomy and than we can talk about it as well about the method of determining the length of life through the directions of the Hyleg.
Quote:
Ptolemy Book III, Chapter 10

Gives five hylegical places:
1. MC
2. 1st (5 deg before Asc and 25 degrees below)
3. 11th
4. 7th
5. 9th
The regions of greatest importance are the Sun, Moon, Asc, PoF and their rulers.

In a day chart, examine


Sun

Moon
Almuten of the Sun, new Moon prior to birth, Ascendant
Ascendant

In a night chart, examine


Moon

Sun
Almuten of Moon, full moon prior to birth, Part of Fortune
if the chart is conjunctional, the Asc, otherwise the Part of Fortune
[Note that if a day chart is preventional you still look for the last conjunction prior to the
birth; if the night chart is conjunctional you look to the last full moon.]
If both the luminaries or sect rulers are in hylegical places, take the one that is in the
place of greatest authority; the almuten is preferred only when it is in a position of
greater authority and has dignity with both the lights (Sun and Moon).

[Basically, you are looking for one of the above in a hylegical place. Ptolemy does not

accept any planet in a non-hylegical place as the hyleg]

Here's another summary of the method of Ptolomy:

(From this site: http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical_astrology/Longevity_and_the_Hyleg.html)
Quote:
Ptolemy's Method for Determining the Hyleg

Claudius Ptolemy, generally regarded as being the father of Western astrrology, states in his Tetrabiblios that the Hyleg is the planet with the greatest essential dignity in five important chart positions:

1) The degree of the Sun
2) The degree of the Moon
3) The degree of the Ascendant
4) The Part of Fortune
5) The Prenatal Syzygy - the degree of the New Moon or Full Moon before birth (New Moon if the natal Moon is waxing, and Full Moon if the natal Moon is waning).
When it comes to matters of essential planetary dignities, classical astrologers like Ptolemy had a much more complex and involved system for reckoning them than modern astrology. In addition to the modern dignities of rulership and exaltation, the ancients also figured in the triplicity rulers as well as the lords of the terms and faces.
In addition, they had a point system for tallying up or measuring the relative strength or debility of a planet, based on its essential dignities and debilities. Five points was given for a planet being the domicile ruler, four points for it being in exaltation, three points for it being the triplicity ruler, two points for being the term ruler, and one point for being the face ruler. The planet with the greatest essential dignity is called the Almuten.
With Ptolemy's method the Hyleg, being the planet with the greatest essential dignity over the above five key positions in the natal horoscope, functions like a Grand Almuten of the entire chart. To score and determine exactly what this Grand Almuten is, put the symbols for the seven classical planets across the top of the page. Under each, write down in a vertical column all the points each planet receives regarding each of the above five positions. At the end, tally up the total number of points for each planet; the planet with the highest score or total overall wins.
As a reference chart for scoring, especially regarding the more obscure classical dignities, I provide you with the following link. It's a chart of the essential planetary dignities according to Ptolemy, with an explanatory article of several pages that follows it:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

One additional qualification remains: the planet must also be in a Hylegaical house. For purposes of selecting the Hyleg, Ptolemy considered the first five degrees above the horizon to be functionally part of the First House; a First House planet, to be Hyleg, must also be in the same sign as the Ascendant degree. If no planet can qualify to be the Hyleg, then the Ascendant itself becomes the Hyleg.
Once the Hyleg has been determined, it is analyzed according to its various accidental dignities to determine the native's potential for health and longevity. The point system for scoring these accidental dignities and debilities is also in the the Skyscript article that accompanies the chart on the above link. Accidental dignities add to the Hyleg's potential for health and vitality, whereas accidental debilities detract from it.
The 17th century English astrologer William Lilly also had his method for determining the Hyleg. It can also be found in the above Skyscript article
.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Jupi i consider myself as an Omni's fan.
Likewise! fwiw - Omnisphericus has an instructive thread investigating the Hyleg and Alcocoden according to numerous "Old Masters" of astrology including Bonatti - whereas Lost_Spirit was focusing solely on William Lilley's indications of specifically a violent death and whether they work or not :smile:
For anyone not familiar with these indications,you may want to check "Chistian astrology Book 3" or the following article http://www.astrologyedmonton.com/Newsletters/Jan2007.pdf

What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.
 

viola magmar

Active member
[FONT=&quot]quoting from BobZemco:


"I can just in case I find an accurate connection. I'm into Forensic Astrology and read a lot of homicide charts. Those are really interesting, and I've been using Mid-Points with those and they have shown to be incredibly accurate in describing certain facets of the crime, such as motive and other factors related to causal events. Even more importantly, Mid-Points verify the manner of death or narrow it down."

I went through your very interesting posts and because of recent news that Amanda Knox' trial will be started over again, I wonder whether reading her chart could give some indications as to her inclinations towards drugs and sex and violence. She is very good at looking sweet but this could be a manipulative trait. The chart I attach has been cast in Koch house system. Transits are for the hour assassination of Meredith Kercher was perpetrated.

I shall then post Meredith's chart, tentatively rectified since, being her TOB unknown, her natal chart is cast for 12 p.m, 28th of December 1985, Southward, London, UK.

[/FONT]
 

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viola magmar

Active member
Hello Bob,

here is Meredith Kercher's chart, rectified by myself on a simplicistic base: transits of the moment. Looking forward to your very extensive-comprehensive considerations,

thank you, violalauraciao
 

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
[FONT=&quot]quoting from BobZemco:

"I can just in case I find an accurate connection. I'm into Forensic Astrology and read a lot of homicide charts. Those are really interesting, and I've been using Mid-Points with those and they have shown to be incredibly accurate in describing certain facets of the crime, such as motive and other factors related to causal events. Even more importantly, Mid-Points verify the manner of death or narrow it down."

I went through your very interesting posts and because of recent news that Amanda Knox' trial will be started over again, I wonder whether reading her chart could give some indications as to her inclinations towards drugs and sex and violence. She is very good at looking sweet but this could be a manipulative trait. The chart I attach has been cast in Koch house system. Transits are for the hour assassination of Meredith Kercher was perpetrated.

I shall then post Meredith's chart, tentatively rectified since, being her TOB unknown, her natal chart is cast for 12 p.m, 28th of December 1985, Southward, London, UK.
[/FONT]

Hello Bob,

here is Meredith Kercher's chart, rectified by myself on a simplicistic base: transits of the moment. Looking forward to your very extensive-comprehensive considerations,

thank you, violalauraciao
Bob Zemco has not posted on our forum for approximately the past 1ighteen months and is much missed

- no forum member seems to have any news of him either -

there is a thread on the subject of "Where is BobZemco?" at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42191 and some of the speculation concerns whether his sudden 'disappearance' from the forum is possibly connected to his somewhat direct responses and comments which led to many of his posts being deleted by moderators due to their 'incendiary' nature. Perhaps someday BobZemco shall return :smile:
 
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