Will X and I sleep together?

Baha

Well-known member
Alright, think what you may.

Is it an immoral question? I don't think so. Why?

Because in order for me to ever agree to sleep with him in the first place we would have to be in a serious relationship. In order for us to finally have a relationship would mean that several major changes would have to occur in our lives.

So rather than ask about each individual question, as I was begining to do, I figured I would just cut to the chase. I left the time frame open on purpose. And in reference to sleeping with him, I do not mean it in terms of sport.

The chart is a real work of art....

Here goes:

I'm Jupiter in Sag.
He is Mercury in Gemini.

Jupiter is under its own rulership, in the exaltation of venus, term of moon. Applying in a trine to venus in the 12th which in conj. moon. It is in the fall of Merc.
*It is in the 4th house within a 5 degree orb of the 5th.

Merc is not aspected but is parallel within less than a degree to the moon, so from what I have read, this is considered to be a conjunction? If so then Merc is not peregrine? It is under Jupiter's rulership and triplicity.
Merc is also in the face of the moon and in its own detriment.
It is in the 1st house.

The moon is in the 12th house, scorpio. In an applying conj. to venus. Moon is the ruler of cancer, 8th house.

From what I see, Jupiter is in the best position of the three. The moon is not in very good shape and Mercury is in the worst shape of all???

If this question is represented by the 8th house: Its cancer -ruler is the moon in the 12th and the south node just arrived.

I can understand the moon being in the 12th because of the nature of the question and the circumstances surrounding both myself and the quesited. It is being recieved by Mars as it is in it's house and is applying to Mars via sextile.

The next aspect the moon will make is a sextile to Saturn and then it will conjunct Mercury.

Since it appears that Jupiter is in the best position, would this mean that the situation is more or less under my control?

During my trying to judge this chart I looked up pitted degrees and found some interesting info HERE In addition, THIS might provide some interesting reading as well. Astro50 makes mention of this website and it's got good info. I did a lot of research before I decided to post this chart and frankly, I can't come to a conclusion. Here's ONE more good website I found. (these websites are probably best for novices)

Finally, I resorted to looking at the 4th house, end of the matter? The night time triplicity ruler of Sag is Jupiter (according to Dorotheus). The 4th house is Pisces, ruled by Jup. trining venus, conj. moon. Then I decided I was just mixing things up too much.....

I would appreciate any comments provided that they are not judgemental regarding the nature of the question. I thought about it a lot before I asked it.

Thanks and Happy New Year :w00t:



*Jupiter being on the cusp of the 5th is what I do not understand. I interpret that to mean that I am trying to sleep with him for "recreational" purposes? This is def, not the case.
 

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Baha

Well-known member
Hi Olivia,

I was working the chart I drew in SFire. I posted one I made on astro instead because it appeared more clear. I just drew up the chart on astro to be able to post it. I didn't notice the differences because it wasn't the one I worked with.

Now that I see it clearly, it is different...perticularly the aspects to Merc. The times are the same as well as the date, etc. Anyway, Since I worked on the one from SF I would imagine that it is the one that would be considered?

Yes, I see that Jup. is def not in the 5th, I was looking at it as when it would change signs...mistake, glad you caught that because it wasn't making sense.

Thanks for having a look, my apologies for the mistake. I have attached the chart I worked on.
 

Serendipity

Well-known member
Well, you're obviously the strong one in the chart. Jupiter is in its own rulership and in an angular house. You are receiving Mercury by rulership which shows you have strong feelings for him. He also has feelings for you being in your first house, however, you are also in the sign of his detriment/fall. I'd say something about this situation seems like a bad idea to him. While Mercury is aspecting Jupiter it's by square, there are a lot of obstacles to go thru in order for this to come about.
Moon is debilitated and in your cadent 12th. Moon is the engine of the chart basically, but it has no power to perform. It's also about to conjunct Venus which is also in detriment. 12th house of secrets and of self undoing.....
 
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juicey J.

Banned
I'm afraid the answer is no. Your represented by jupiter and they by mercury you rule them and they might well come back to you drawn to you however if anything it will be only to sleep with you if they do and they won't be interested in being in a serious and lasting relationship.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
(Following is not in accordance with standard horary delineation and uses whole sign house format)

Let's see what the 3 Judgements method might indicate...

1) Experimental Walis Magic 8 Ball
-taking the 5th (sex) from the 7th (you and him as a relationship pair) = Libra = Venus = yes, according to 8 Ball rules
-however, taking 5th from you (asc of Sagittarius) = Aries = Mars = no, according to the 8 Ball
(taking the 8th from you, is Cancer which posits the Tail and is an automatic no according to both the 8 Ball and Primary Ankara)
Since I can't decide which (5th from asc or 5th from 7th) actually applies, I will give the 8 Ball results as "mixed"

2) Simple Lunar Divination
-asc is a straight sign: - 1 point
-Moon flows away from Saturn: + 1 point
-Moon flows toward Venus: + 2 points
-Moon's next sign (Sagittarius) is a straight sign: - 1 point
-Moon's next house (the 1st) is a pivot: + 1 point
-Moon flows toward the Part of Fortune: + 1 point
Results:
Positive: + 5 points
Negative: - 2 points
Net: + 3 points
Divination: with a net + 3 points, Lunar divination suggests that influences are favorable for X and you to sleep together

3) Primary Ankara
-asc = you = Sagittarius = Jupiter
-you and him together as a relationship = 7th = Gemini = Mercury
-Mercury flows toward Jupiter = + testimony
-Moon flows toward both significators = + testimony
-Moon in sign of its Fall and in a cadent house = - testimony
-Mercury flows toward Part of Fortune (+), Jupiter flows away from it (-) = net neutral testimony
-Mercury moving toward square with Jupiter = - testimony
-Mercury in detriment in Sagittarius (-), but also in a pivot (+); Jupiter in domicile and in a pivot (whole sign 4th house) (+) = all together leans toward slight + testimony but I am giving it as net neutral testimony
-Mercury is posited in an elevated degree (+); Jupiter is posited in a pitted degree (-) Moon is also posited in a pitted degree (-)
= net - testimony

Testimonies so far:
Positive = +2
Negative = -3

Stars:
-Sabik is in long. conjunction with Mercury: Sabik is a star of mixed influence in general but in conjunction with Mercury is decidedly malefic: - testimony
-South Scale is in long conjunction with the Moon: South Scale is a major malefic comparable to Algol; - testimony

Results:
Net of - 3 testimonies which indicates a "no" answer by primary Ankara horary

Result of 3 Judgements
-Magic 8 Ball: mixed
-Simple Lunar Divination: favorable
-Primary Ankara horary: negative

...so for all that effort the 3 Judgements give a 50/50 toss-up result.

But there is no toss-up for me: in the Primary Ankara method finding South Scale with the Moon, supplemented by Sabik with Mercury, I delineate quite negative influences operative relative to this question: its a toss-up of whether or not querent and X will sleep together, but the indications relative to any relationship between them (other than in bed) are disastrous (at least over the foreseeable future)

I understand these indications from the Ankara delineation as being Cosmic advice...
 
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Baha

Well-known member
Disclaimer: I have some questions which should not be taken as argumentative. I just need some clarification.

Serendepity: I asked the question of sleeping together to eliminate all ambiguity. I wanted the final yes/no judgement to not leave me with any doubts either way. I've never had sexual relations with this person.

While Mercury is aspecting Jupiter it's by square

That was in the first chart I posted which was from Astro. I reposted the original chart I worked from and Merc is not aspected except by a parallel from the moon within less than 1 degree. I guess then it's next aspect will be to Jupiter by square?

Juicy:
Your represented by jupiter and they by mercury you rule them and they might well come back to you drawn to you however if anything it will be only to sleep with you if they do and they won't be interested in being in a serious and lasting relationship.
Tikana posted once that the Jupiter/Merc combination is very malefic. Is this what you mean?

Dr. Farr: Wouldn't this type of question use the 8th house? I ask because in your first analysis you gave it to the 5th?

but the indications relative to any relationship between them (other than in bed) are disastrous (at least over the foreseeable future)

Ok, got it.

I visited this LINK and found references to pitted and elevated degrees. There is also mention of the Bright and Dark degrees. When pitted degrees were spoken of it mentions that they represent either an increase or decrease of Fortune. Is fortune taken to mean luck or finances?? What would brightness and darkness mean? The physical appearance of the planet during those degrees or are they metaphors for strength?

General question, the moon is recieved by Mars in it's own house. And the moon is sextiling mars as well. I read that when a planet is being recieved that some of the influences of the malefic planet are negated. Does this make sense?

And finally, I was under the impression that since the moon drives the chart, I would pay attention to it's next aspect(s) rather than the next aspects of the significators. The next thing the moon will do is sextile Saturn and then conj. Mercury. It will move from the Mars sextile.

Thanks very much to Serendepity, Juicy, Dr. Farr and Olivia for having a look. I really, really appreciate it. This is a difficult matter for me.
 
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Baha

Well-known member
Liv:

You never want the eighth house involved in sexual matters. It's the house of death, grief, loss, anguish of mind, and a bunch of other nasty things. It sometimes comes up in conjunction with rape, prostitution, and even necrophilia, but it has nothing to do with love - love is 5th house.

Thanks, I re-read my source(s). What I read that confused me, was that 8th house dealt with procreation and I took that to mean that sex in the 8th house sense would be relations with a person who you would wish to have children with; a person who you are committed to and vice versa. Thank you for the clarification.

And, thanks for having a look at the chart. Very much appreciated.
 

Baha

Well-known member
But in the end, and after having seen hundreds of charts, I have to agree with tradition - the houses that can't see the ascendant by Ptolemaic aspect are not good places.

And I agree with you. I've been going over posts here on the forums that I hadn't seen before. It's definitely clear now.

As always, thank you so much for your time.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I have a thread on Elevated and Pitted Degrees here on AW, which also gives the corrected degree numbers which fit with our contemporary method of chart numeration (our charts start at 0, in the old numeration they start at 1) Pits in essence represent inhibition, blockage, being boxed-in, these things relating both the benefic and to malefic influences. Note that in the reference chart both Jupiter and the Moon are in pits-meaning they are boxed-in, blocked, not "going anywhere", and this largely shows that at the present time this whole matter is "blocked", that now and at least into the near future, basically nothing will come of the question (very much like when we have a VOC Moon, nothing comes of the matter) This is the net effect when finding significators (like Jupiter here) or important co-significators (like the Moon here) in pitted degrees; of course Mercury is elevated, which relives its detriment in Sagittarius, and for me Mercury is strong in this chart (taking the elevated degree into account) which would have moved the Ankara horary indication toward favorable EXCEPT that Mercury gets clobbered by its conjunction with Sabik, which is quite unfavorable (see eg constellationsofwords, also Robson's "Fixed Stars:)

May I add that consideration of the pits and elevations, coupled with stars connected with significators (and always with the Moon too) are very important modifying factors in horary-even if one follows standard horary practice; most horary today does not include these factors in delineation, yet the historical fact is that they were once considered (even by Lilly) of at least moderate importance as factors to be taken account of in horary delineation...
 

isismagdalenne

Well-known member
I love the softwear too, especially how it shows the dignities in the border, which are those? triplicities?
Also, dont worry about the question. Its fine. Everyone has sex. Its only your business under what conditions.
 

Arijana

Well-known member
The thing u also have to have in mind with Jupiter and Mercury,is that they are naturally not friends,wheras Mars and Venus are each others closest friends, and Saturn and Mars are enemies etc.
Have that in mind,because it hints something.
he is in your first house which would show him thinking about you,that is emphasized by him ruled by you ( he is in your power ) ,but I wouldnt say he is alone ( sun with Mars )
bah...just looks like there are some secrets and things u dont know about here.
 

Baha

Well-known member
I have a thread on Elevated and Pitted Degrees here on AW,

Yes, Dr. Farr, I read it several times and it's very informative. When I read something on the forums I usually Google it to read more. That's how I found the link which mentions "Bright and Dark" degrees and I got a bit confused. I guess what it means is there are certain degrees in which the planets are considered brighter in terms of their luminosity making them easier to "see" by planets in other points of the chart??

When pitted degrees were spoken of it mentions that they represent either an increase or decrease of Fortune. Is fortune taken to mean luck or finances??

So in answer to my own question, I would imagine that fortune = luck or good outcome.

So, I saw that Jupiter and the moon were in pitted degrees but then I went on to read about the "Bright and Dark" degrees which hinted that Jupiter and the Moon were in good shape. Since one set of degrees gave negative results and the other positive, I deferred from using either since at the time I was confused as to their meanings. They contradicted each other.

May I add that consideration of the pits and elevations, coupled with stars connected with significators (and always with the Moon too) are very important modifying factors in horary-even if one follows standard horary practice; most horary today does not include these factors in delineation, yet the historical fact is that they were once considered (even by Lilly) of at least moderate importance as factors to be taken account of in horary delineation...

Yes, I understand this. I used SF to draw the chart and was using the option of the fixed star set given by Ptolemy. The only star of significance that I found was Rukbat conj Mars. I think I am going to have to tweak the program to add additional fixed stars the the list.

I've learned a lot from the time you spent on my chart and also from your other contributions to this forum, Thank you.

Sagi and Isis: sent you a PM

Arijana:
The thing u also have to have in mind with Jupiter and Mercury,is that they are naturally not friends,wheras Mars and Venus are each others closest friends, and Saturn and Mars are enemies etc.
Where can I find a reference to which planets "like" each other? I've looked and probably have seen it already but I can't remember at the moment. Thanks for your reply :)
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Baha:
+an excellent list of planetary friends and enemies, and also how these relationships change according to houses the planets meet in, can be found in Al-Biruni's "Introduction to the Elements of the Art of Astrology"

+extensive star lists which can easily be used to determine longitudinal conjunctions and also declination parallels are available at constellationsofwords.com

+there is a fundamental difference between pits/elevations and bright/dark/mixed degree influences: following Albumassar:

-the pits and elevations influence HOW planets are able to exert effects: if pitted they are blocked from their ability to exert their influence, whether + or -; if elevated they are empowered (almost as if they were exalted) and exert their influence very easily (and since its like an exaltation this tends to be benefic influences) Their association with "fortune/luck" came about in later astrological practice due to a superficial reading of Al-Biruni's description of them (labelling them) as connected with increasing or decreasing "fortune" (Al-Biruni's explanation of them clearly shows that his concept is the same as the one I have just described)

-the bright/dark degrees have nothing to do with the ABILITY of planetary expression, but rather with its QUALITY: bright degrees bring out the expression of benefic influences and reduces malefic influences; dark degrees diminish the expression of benefic influences and brings out malefic influences.
So, a planet in a pitted degree is neutralized/inhibited from its expression whether that expression WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE BEEN either more benefic or more malefic depending upon the bright or dark degree that planet was in.
 
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