Will we Have a Relationship Again?

[byjove]

Situation

I met someone a few months ago. This person moved here for a few months to see if they would like to live here and have since gone home to arrange to that. (male-male relationship) Something has come up. He says his mom is sick and he's staying close to her to see her through her cancer treatment (she is also financially dependent upon him). He tells me the doctors are optimistic as her vitals signs are good and she's been living with it for years. He says he would like to continue our relationship in a few months when he expects he'll finally be able to come back for good.

Problem

Well I want his mom to get better of course. My heart wants him close so we could continue where we left off. He really changed me and I was happy with him. I also ask myself each step of the way is he telling the truth, though his relationship and work history suggests he is a man of commitment.

My interpretation

Interp 1

Querent: 1st house Leo, Sun is in 12th of Leo conjuncting the ascendent.
Querent Co-significator: Moon, in 1st house of Leo, conjunct ascendent, separating conjunction from Sun
Quesited: 7th house as is relationship/commitment question. Aquarius, Saturn in 4th of Scorpio.

Sun flows toward Saturn (positive)
Part of Love (ascendant + venus - sun) is at 13 Cancer
Saturn flows away from Sun, also no applying aspect (negative)
Saturn flows away from PoL, Sun flows away also (negative)
Dispositor of PoL is Moon, flows away from PoL (negative)
His Part of Love is 13 Capricorn (7th house + Venus - Sun)
Sun and Saturn flow toward PoL (positive)
His PoL dispositor ( 7th + Venus - Sun) = 13 Capricorn, Saturn
Saturn flows Saturn (no idea) and away from Sun (? and -)

Moon as co-significator of querent:
Moon flows toward Saturn (positive)
Moon flows ??? the generic PoL and toward his PoL = (at least one negative)
Moon flows away from the PoL = (negative)

3 (positive)
3 (negative)
2 (unsure)
= looks difficult, maybe 50/50


Interp 2

Question: Will we have a relationship again?

Querent: 1st house Leo, Sun is in 12th of Leo conjuncting the ascendent.
Quesited: 7th house as is relationship/commitment question. Aquarius, Saturn in 4th of Scorpio.

Aspect between querent and quesited: No, so the Moon takes extra importance than usual for signifying the querent, me.

Querent: Besides the querent ruler the Sun being in it's ruling sign, it also conjuncts the ASC and is also being separated by the other main significator, the Moon. The Sun separates from Jupiter also, ruler of (intercepted) 5th. The Sun separates from a Mars square, ruler of the 10th, placed in the 4th.

General significator Moon is separating from both the Sun and the ascendant. It flows toward the Part of Fortune. It's approaching a wide square with Saturn, the quesited, which is placed in the 4th of Scorpio. The approach of the Moon via square shows an obstacle. Moon in the 1st house is said to show indecisiveness on the part of the querent, me. The Moon as one of the two primary significators approaching Saturn (quesited) by a square, is about 5.5 degrees away from exacting, so 5.5 months of a delay? Here, the significator is in a fixed sign and angular house, so the time is in months for sure. But this shows an obstacle, not a final outcome?

Mercury and Venus trine Saturn, Venus applies and Mercury seperates from the 12th house of Cancer. Saturn is the quesited, the 7th ruler.


Thank you for your time.

 

[OnTheCusp]

There actually is an aspect: the Moon applies to oppose Saturn by antiscion.

In fact, since the Moon separates from the Sun, it is translating from Sun to Saturn.

The problem is the negative reception. Sun/Moon in detriment of Saturn and Saturn in fall of the Moon. I don't think this bodes well for future prospects. Saturn likes Mars, who's recently entered Scorpio. When that happened, it stopped exalting Saturn. So I'm thinking there might be another guy on stage (who no longer likes your guy).

Guy's mom is turned Lord 10, so Venus. Since Saturn is in the detriment of Venus, in th context of this question, I'd say the bit about his mom is not really the issue here.

 

[byjove]

Thanks for your reply.

What does it mean that the Sun and Moon are split on either side of the ascendent? They both represent me, I think? Plus, four planets in the 12th house? Much unseen, unknown or hidden?

 

[OnTheCusp]

First the question about the 12th house planets. In general I don't place much emphasis on house placement unless it's relevant to the question. For example, in a contest horary you judge a planet to be weak in the 12th (so if the other team's planet was on the MC, you could say it was more powerful than the one in the 12th). If a main significator is conjunct a house cusp, it can be taken to mean that the querent's mind is on those matters. So, if you ask "Will I get into college?" and Lord 1 is on the 9th cusp, it doesn't mean you'll necessarily get in. Just means you're thinking about it.

Also, the rule of thumb is to consider any planet five degrees (more or less) from a house cusp as being in that house. Here, the Sun is only three degrees away from the Ascendant; Jupiter five. Because the two are conjunct, they come as a package. I'd consider both to be in the first house. Even if Jupiter were alone, I'd still consider it to be a first house planet per the 5 degree rule (depending on the size of the house...I re-cast this chart using regio houses, which made the 12th a bit smaller than your Placidean 12th).

So no...I don't think the planets in this chart can be taken to show "much unseen" in the context of your question.

Regarding the Sun and the Moon. Yes, both signify you. The Sun is Lord 1 and the Moon is your cosignificator. Lord 1 can be thought to show you as a "person" and the Moon as "your heart". Here, the two are both in Leo and share similar receptions.

First--are you sure you cast the chart for the correct time (did you really cast this at dawn)? The receptions here do not match what you describe at all. Both the Sun and the Moon are in the detriment of Saturn, showing not only disinterest, but dislike towards this guy.

That the Sun and the Moon straddle the Ascendant has no meaning in itself at all. Just indicates you've asked the question around dawn shortly after a new moon.

And my bad--in my zeal to find a fancy aspect by antiscion, I missed the more obvious, bodily aspect: Moon separates from Sun (Lord 1) and applies to square Saturn (Lord 7). Kind of neat how it can do the same thing by antiscion simultaneously.

Out of curiosity....what did you guys do when you were together? Were drinking, drugs, or any other form of self-undoing involved? The Moon is Lord 12, and it's what translates from You to Him in this chart. This is of course is not a given based on the chart (Moon could show lots of other things), but this one would be consistent. [If you re-cast using Regio houses Pluto is on radical 6th--guy's 12th house of self-undoing which would also be consistent with something like that].

 

[OnTheCusp]

Also, can you please elaborate on what you mean by "he changed me"?

It's an interesting thing to say in the context of this question (because both the Sun and Moon are in Leo...both of your significators are most interested in "Me" as opposed to this other guy...so one other read on this is that you are less interested in this other guy, as a person, than you are on the potential for the relationship to "change" or improve "me").

 

[byjove]

So no...I don't think the planets in this chart can be taken to show "much unseen" in the context of your question.

This is good to know.

First--are you sure you cast the chart for the correct time (did you really cast this at dawn)? The receptions here do not match what you describe at all. Both the Sun and the Moon are in the detriment of Saturn, showing not only disinterest, but dislike towards this guy.

I don't understand it. I remember waking up early that day, I was upset and unsettled. As more backstory, I just returned to Canada from Europe, where I spent July when my mom passed away. But even with that on my mind, I don't see this "disinterest, dislike". I wonder is something else not quite right about it then.

Out of curiosity....what did you guys do when you were together? Were drinking, drugs, or any other form of self-undoing involved? The Moon is Lord 12, and it's what translates from You to Him in this chart.

We watched movies together, went for walks, the beach, parks, shopping, cinema, cafes...more walks on the beach at sunset...it was really very romantic!

Also, can you please elaborate on what you mean by "he changed me"?

He became very supportive of me. He gave me suggestions about things like career. Nothing pushy or manipulative, very gentle and good advice. He's in a much more advanced career position and earns triple what I do. I was happy to learn from him. Plus, he unknowingly taught me other things. I learned that you must watch your mode of thinking, only with positive thinking can you achieve things. He taught me not to quit so easily. He taught me the importance of good self-esteem and how that affects other life areas, e.g. making better choices in career.

It's an interesting thing to say in the context of this question (because both the Sun and Moon are in Leo...both of your significators are most interested in "Me" as opposed to this other guy...so one other read on this is that you are less interested in this other guy, as a person, than you are on the potential for the relationship to "change" or improve "me").

I don't understand that either. I care for him a great deal. I want the best for him.

We spoke a lot this week. Some things are clear. Firstly, he made it abundantly clear that he's still crazy about me too and if distance wasn't an issue, we'd be together. His mom is still not getting answers on the source of her pain. So he says at this rate he won't leave his home country this year. He told me before and mentioned again that he became very dissatisfied with his life there and he hates his job. So he feels stuck. He sounded quite sad and I've never heard him worried or detached. He said he's been disconnected from everyone a bit lately.

I really don't see -from my amateur eyes- how some of that comes out in the chart. Hmm. I wonder if there's a way I could re-phrase it to double check the chart is good.

 

[RayAustin]

There actually is an aspect: the Moon applies to oppose Saturn by antiscion.

In fact, since the Moon separates from the Sun, it is translating from Sun to Saturn.

The problem is the negative reception. Sun/Moon in detriment of Saturn and Saturn in fall of the Moon. I don't think this bodes well for future prospects. Saturn likes Mars, who's recently entered Scorpio. When that happened, it stopped exalting Saturn. So I'm thinking there might be another guy on stage (who no longer likes your guy).

Guy's mom is turned Lord 10, so Venus. Since Saturn is in the detriment of Venus, in th context of this question, I'd say the bit about his mom is not really the issue here.

1) Antisicia alone IMO would not be enough to guarantee an outcome. In all my years of studying astrology, I have never heard of an authority considering antisicia enough to indicate a successful outcome.
2) Even then, the aspect you're talking about is an opposition.. from Moon to Saturn no less. These planets do not get a long, and Moon opposition Saturn usually represents heartbreak. If anything, antisicia supports the conclusion of a 'no'.

I also do not see that a combust Moon can translate light successfully to another planet positioned in her fall.

The short answer to this chart is no. This Moon square Saturn is prohibitive. The Sun square Saturn is also prohibitive, and notice Venus at the 12th house cusp which is a general indicator of a possible negative outcome for love matters. If anything I see futile attempts made by the querent towards a person that is ultimately unwelcoming.

 

[venuschild]

Attached Thumbnails

Byjove, I love your thoroughness, these are the types of queries that one does NOT feel like they are giving handouts or feeding the pigeons for you have shown great effort!

Look at the Moon, always the querant Combust:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4365&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=716

http://classicalastrologer.me/2013/03/08/a-question-of-combustion/

So you can see you are in a very bad way on this one!

Besides that you are in a lunation, new moon, read what has been cited about new moons:

See CRISIS LUNATIONS in the following:

http://www.lynnkoiner.com/astrology-articles/mercury-retrogrades-2007-2008

The 7th house lord is Saturn, note what Sue Ward says about Saturn in the 7th regarding Lilly's methodology, which is read similarly as Saturn rules the 7th:

http://www.horary.com/sward/Consids.html

The lord of the matter is Saturn with the Moon the first that will perfect in Square. What is a Square/Quartile according to Ramesey, Lilly, and Coley?

It's noted as a negative or NO indicator called '..an imperfect hatred aspect..' by all three authorities words!

But we can't rest until when check if the testimonies are less or more than equal regarding the point count, and what about the Lord of the hour, and should the Antiscia be consulted to get a true analysis?

Otherwise are we not just amateurs?

So the lord of the matter is saying No, yet that is not ever the end of the story!

RayAustin

2) Even then, the aspect you're talking about is an opposition.. from Moon to Saturn no less. These planets do not get a long, and Moon opposition Saturn usually represents heartbreak. If anything, antisicia supports the conclusion of a 'no'.

Ray it's a Square/Quartile, not an Opposition yet the meaning is nearly the same!

Yes, I've done it to, cerebral overload, besides it's a good way to gauge if the class is paying attention!

 

[RayAustin]

Ray it's a Square/Quartile, not an Opposition yet the meaning is nearly the same!

You have misunderstood. As you can see by the quote, I was speaking about Onthecusp's analysis of the opposition by antiscia.

 

[venuschild]

Thanks RayAustin,

Brain overload on my part, keep up the dynamite work, my total ineptness bows to thee Sir!

 

[RayAustin]

Haha thanks, it's cool.

 

[byjove]

"Byjove, I love your thoroughness, these are the types of queries that one does NOT feel like they are giving handouts or feeding the pigeons for you have shown great effort!"

I'm only too glad to receive the time of more seasoned horary astrologers. I'm still very new at it. Plus, I'm very, very interested in the possible outcome.

"Look at the Moon, always the querant Combust"

Hmm. Does the Sun not count as something, if not more? I thought the Sun was more me and the Moon my emotional state and as a secondary significator. Perhaps the Moon combustion does take higher importance, I just thought I'd ask!

"The 7th house lord is Saturn, note what Sue Ward says about Saturn in the 7th"
I looked at this one also, but I think if I'm reading it correctly that the reader doesn't use the interpretations when it's a 7th house matter:

"It is my view that each of these 7th house considerations can only apply when it is not a 7th house matter under scrutiny and each of the following charts falls into that category."

"The lord of the matter is Saturn with the Moon the first that will perfect in Square."
Is that a very firm no? If it is, I'll accept it. I don't want to ignore a 'no' if that's what it really is. Are squares not about obstacles to be overcome?

"It's noted as a negative or NO indicator called '..an imperfect hatred aspect..' by all three authorities words!"
I don't understand the "...imperfect hatred..." connection with me and this guy. We spoke just a few days ago and it's obvious we're still crazy about each other, it came from the beautiful time we spent together. Perhaps it means that things will not work out in the coming months?

"So the lord of the matter is saying No, yet that is not ever the end of the story!"
Is that the case here, is there anything more to the story?

Thanks for your time and the research. It's good for a learning horary astrologer!

 

[venuschild]

Byjove

"Look at the Moon, always the querant Combust"

Hmm. Does the Sun not count as something, if not more? I thought the Sun was more me and the Moon my emotional state and as a secondary significator. Perhaps the Moon combustion does take higher importance, I just thought I'd ask!

The Sun is you, yet the Moon is ALWAYS the querant, and yes a secondary ruler but your the querant none the less!

Read what Anthony Louis said in Horary Plain & Simple about a Latin artist by the name of Ganivet missed a horary about a decumbiture because of the Lunation, the New Moon, and I'm only citing him as he is very well read, cites his works, etc., Not a Traditional author of Antiquity but a horary artist on the path similar to many astro scholars everywhere!

Byjove

"The 7th house lord is Saturn, note what Sue Ward says about Saturn in the 7th"
I looked at this one also, but I think if I'm reading it correctly that the reader doesn't use the interpretations when it's a 7th house matter:

Lilly in CAIII writes '.. that Saturn ruling the 7th in nativities and horary is not a blessing..'.

But Saturn says you Need a consultancy, it is your restriction and your need!

Byjove

"The lord of the matter is Saturn with the Moon the first that will perfect in Square."
Is that a very firm no? If it is, I'll accept it. I don't want to ignore a 'no' if that's what it really is. Are squares not about obstacles to be overcome?

Most of the time the lord of the matter, Adverse aspects are No, Benefic aspects are YES, in this case the 7th is the quesited, that lord is the General indicator, yet the other testimonies Must be consulted to weigh out the horary's message.

The meat of the food you desire, that I'm speaking of in within these books:

 

[venuschild]

Byjove

Venuschild

The 7th house lord is Saturn, note what Sue Ward says about Saturn in the 7th"
I looked at this one also, but I think if I'm reading it correctly that the reader doesn't use the interpretations when it's a 7th house matter:

"It is my view that each of these 7th house considerations can only apply when it is not a 7th house matter under scrutiny and each of the following charts falls into that category."

I'm not certain you understood, from horary of Antiquity, the predecessors of horary, Saturn is the Greater Malefic of the Superior planets of the Chaldean order from Ptolemy's writing and beyond, he(Saturn) is Not kind and shows when ruling the 7th when a querant asked a question that they desperately need counselors upon this horary.

But it's Not a great place for Saturn in a nativity or horary.

Try reading more pre-1700 horary documents and you'll understand eventually what many misunderstood and passed on to others as fact!

I can hear loudly you are trying to put natal astrology from post 1700 authorities into reading a horary and you'll only muddy the waters of your horary understanding unless you study those who have gone before and have proved they had merit to be sought from those they served!

 

[byjove]

The situation continues...

After about 3 months after he left, I suggested that we just be friends until he's in a position to come back and to date other people. He agreed. I've dated a few people since and despite having good periods where I could genuinely give others a fresh chance, none of them worked out. I just don't find the same passion I had with this man.

We've had some time apart to think. In the end, I'd rather bad news than not knowing what's going on.

He swears he's had no connections with others since me (I'm not sure I believe that) and he was angry that I'd dated others but we've put that behind us. I tried to think of a way to test him, if this guy is for real. I told him I could come visit him in his country. To my total surprise he said he'd love that. But he can be distant when he wants and now he's just received a major award at work. I am happy for him, but I don't see how he's going to leave such a high-ranking, successful position.

I can't stop being attracted to him, but I can't seem to get straight answers out of him either. Grrr!

 

[OnTheCusp]

Sorry to hear it hasn't worked out as hoped! :-(

In light of what you've said...and looking back at the original post, the chart is quite eloquent.

Your significators, the Sun and the Moon, sit on the Ascendant. In a fixed sign. So you're "at home". And staying there (because Leo is a fixed sign).

The guy's significator, Saturn, is in Scorpio. Also a fixed sign. And, Saturn is more or less in station. So he's stuck way over there on the other side of the chart.

Setting receptions aside, if we focus on the basic story: we met, he left..will we meet again... The chart says it all.