Will our relationship get better? (heal)


Well-known member
I 've realized recently that my relationship with my mother has become worse & worse during the last months... (in terms of exchanging harsh words-not really believing what we are saying..)
Its almost as if we love deeply & hate each other at the same time
& we are trapped in this endless overemotional loophole, repeating the same patterns of behavior-mistakes when we are together in a room...

In other words we can't enjoy each others company despite having build a solid relationship (or that how we perceive it)...

Not sure if horary is appropriate here but I asked:
Will our relationship get better(heal emotionally) in the following months?

p.s. Also what else can this chart tell me about this relationship?

edit: I am re-uploading the chart in Regiomontanus!Thank you all so much for your comments


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Well-known member
Uranus on the Ascendant and Pluto (possibly a bit too far) on the MC definitely confirm what you're saying--you and Mom are under a lot of stress.

Your significators are Lord 1 (Mars) and the Moon. Mom gets Lord 10 (Saturn).

The receptions aren't good here, and unfortunately, it doesn't look like they're about to change any time soon.

Saturn is in the fall of the Moon. Fall often carries with it a sense of disappointment (i.e., the opposite of exaltation). So your Mom is disappointed in you. (Or course another read is that she loathes you, although that's probably not the case here).

Mars recently entered Scorpio--major change in receptions. In Libra, Mars was in detriment and exalted Saturn. So Mom had power over you. Now in Scorpio, Mars rules Saturn (i.e., you have power over Mom). Given what you've said, this would seem to indicate the back-and-forth battling between you two.

Both of your and Mom's main significators (Mars and Saturn) are in a fixed, watery sign. Neither of you are likely to budge soon.

One thing that is interesting is your shared hatred of Venus: Saturn and Mars are in the detriment of Venus and the Moon is in the fall of Venus.

So one glimmer of hope might be to unite against this common "enemy", if you can figure out what that might be. In this chart, Venus is Lord 2 (your money/possessions) or Lord 7 (so a significant other, an ex, or maybe just some other person). It's turned Lord 5 (your Mom's kids) and turned Lord 10 (your Mom's job). It could also just be something Venus-y. Or perhaps nothing at all.

Do any of those ring a bell? Your attitude towards whatever this might be has changed recently (assuming it's relevant, which it might not be)...in Libra Mars was ruled by this Venus who takes Mars into its fall. Now in Scorpio, you're "free" of this nasty thing.


Well-known member
Thank you so much dear OnTheCusp for your reply,
Many things do ring a bell. We are both under stress for different reasons...I am stressed because I am trying to start my career, & taking care for the first time my practical issues (money,home) which under current difficulties is only hard (& getting harder)...She is stressed for other reasons (I assume she worries about me & doesn't know how to handle it). I think she is disappointed at me because she feels I reject her..she has this need to be needed..but I only reject her in a healthy way (I am trying to built my life, or move ahead) ...she had power over me till recently (emotionally &financially speaking) but I know this is changing as (I am the one that changed that) I prefer to be independent & have less money...just seeking for clarity & independence.Not sure what Venus is...could be the financial issues or another family member (female) that causes many conflicts in other family members...
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Summery Joy

Well-known member
Here is one more insight. See if it helps.

Mars has just moved from Libra to Scoprio. When it was in Libra, it was in fall, debilitated and dis-empowered. Saturn was also peregrine and dis-empowered in Scorpio. But the good news was that they were in mutual reception. They were in a rather codependent relationship, in a misery-loves-company sort of way.

But now Mars has moved into Scoprio, where it is very powerful. It still receives Saturn, but doesn't need Saturn to receive it. It can work on its own now. Something has changed in your situation, and suddenly you are (consciously or unconsciously) moving away from a dysfunctional dynamic with your mother, taking control over your life and working for your own good.

Now, your mother feels alone in her misery. You know how when sad people come together to support each, and they get comfortable there, but then one of the becomes happy and the other stays sad? The sad one then feels abandoned and betrayed; like the now-happy one doesn't care about them anymore because they are starting to care for themselves.

Not that "sadness" was the problem, but it seems like that's the dynamic with your mother. Your getting better and empowered is leaving her feeling abandoned and betrayed.

An interesting fact is that both significators are in the 7th house. Your empowerment is making you more likely to have a successful relationship with someone, which will further "take you away" from your mother. It may not be an explicit issue, but it's sort of there on a subconsious level.

What your mother needs is to know that she is still loved by you, that you taking care of yourself doesn't mean you stop caring about her; and that you not needing her doesn't mean that you don't want her support. Be careful not to loosen boundaries though. You don't wanna take a step back now. Looks like you are on the right track despite the challenges.


Well-known member
Thank you Summery Joy for your insight. Horary can be so useful, when I have a real issue (at stake).I 've felt the empowerment of Scorpio -Mars recently as I finally got to know my inner personality-self-motives (a theme that existed over the last 2-3 years) & but now I am not afraid to show it to the world. (thats THE change I assume)

Gradually I re-evaluated our mom-daughter relationship & it turns out my mom is very important to me but there were unhealthy elements-emotional burdens between us.Its a very delicate moment really...I am not gonna stop trying to move on as an individual, because its very clear what I want to do with my life now. thank you so much, for your advice. Its interesting what you said about empowerment & successful relationships...I hear & talk a lot about this lately..that if I don't love & approve my individual self, I wont be able to be in a real-fulfilling relationship...
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In the future I'd like to see you omit those asteroids in horary as they only gum up the chart, and please reduce the aspect quantity of lines in the horoscope, for only applying aspects are needed and looking at a horoscope with so many lines becomes sort of like finding needles in haystacks; too much on the eyes! Also you may get more nibbles in your horary work if you use Regiomontanus for the more serious vanguard artists.

I agree with most of what SummerJoy and OnTheCusp have stated. But I think you will be trying very hard and some change will happen for the better in the next few months since Mars, you, are applying to cjt to your mother's ruler Saturn(Older).

Yet there is the Sun and Jupiter coming in making a quartile/square to your mother's ruler, the square represents as Coley, Lilly, and Ramesey state '..an imperfect hatred aspect..'. In other words, squares meaning more conflicts or problems are on the way, but with the cjt you will try hard!

Something else to note, both your lord and hers are in the most fixed sign, so neither one of you are going to budge on issues, especially Old Saturn, for he in scorpio can be like Captain Ahab of the Pequot in Moby Dick!


I'm certain in you and your mother's natal charts there are significant squares and possibly oppositions, and it's good to reflect upon what an opposition's out is. An opposition is saying in every case '..co-operate or separate..', in other words you two evidently can't live under the same roof now that you are grown and it was most likely very tough growing up under those aspects.
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Well-known member
Hello venuschild,
Thank you so much for your post & valuable advice. I re-uploaded the horary chart in a Regiomontanus system on the initial question above & without the asteroids (You are right I don't know why I kept them).

Very interesting that horary can reveal so much about our overall situation-relationship.I can tell you for sure what I think the upcoming change will be.
I am starting a new job right now, so hopefully I will (RE)take charge of my life. So no matter the conflicts & I can make my own decisions hopefully & maybe bring positive energy back.I will do whatever I can to move on as a person thats for sure.

(I see what you mean. I am wondering if you meant a composite chart..If yes,you are right!I just checked our composite & there are many oppositions..O man I am a bit socked..Maybe I have repressed all these memories.Can the composite reveal if she was also a positive influence or I am trying to convince myself that she truly helped me become what I am?This chart looks so bad.. Maybe its my defense mechanism..I am sorry I am asking a different question here, I am posting a composite chart here just in case you want to check this.

Thank you!

p.s. We didn't live together until recently, I graduated last year & started searching for different jobs, internships so my current situation almost gave me no other choice than take a step back & live with my mom who has been supportive of my studies & I felt ok with it. I see this a something temporary.Anyway..It was a wrong decision I see this now.
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Very interesting that horary can reveal so much about our overall situation-relationship. I can tell you for sure what I think the upcoming change will be.
I am starting a new job right now, so hopefully I will (RE)take charge of my life. So no matter the conflicts & I can make my own decisions hopefully & maybe bring positive energy back. I will do whatever I can to move on as a person thats for sure.

In horary Generally only past and future aspects of the moon are consulted outside of the quesited; so the job thing is Not the emphasis here.

As Mars, you, is in it's essential dignity, it shows your earnest attempt to make things more agreeable.

However Mars the least of the Superior planets and the lesser malefic is going to join the greater Superior planet(Saturn) and the Greater Malefic.

So I think when you progress the horoscope, and when that coming cjt happens in Scorpio the two will do an ultra clash!

........I graduated last year & started searching for different jobs, internships so my current situation almost gave me no other choice than take a step back & live with my mom who has been supportive of my studies & I felt ok with it. I see this a something temporary. Anyway..It was a wrong decision I see this now.

In other words as much as you love her, you will learn, '...one can never truly go back home..'.

Watch out that cjt could(will) put your relationship in jeopardy.
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TamaraL, REMEMBER when it comes to astrology the planets are the actors or the actress, the houses are the various scenes, the signs are rather like the climate variables or like social trends we can not as individuals change like what the Outer planets do to humanity and the environment!

See Mars has dignity in Sco, while Saturn representing Old Age, Elderly People is in the most fixed sign, in a sign of which they NEVER forget, yet may forgive, but slights are remembered by these individuals. It would take a lot of Christianity to curb the vendetta personality of these folk: I've heard of Deacons in the Church who were somewhat placed there so they would learn more how to forgive. More like devout Moslems who REMEMBER always, or like Roman Catholic Italian Gangsters; in that both are always keeping tally and adding up the scoreboard on everyone!


This is scary when I realize this...Its seems as if I am an actor-spectator in my own life..It feels as if I had no power of this..she was away for more than a month & only returned today .. we had the biggest fight I could possibly think...
This is a life-changing realization...realizing that astrology is more than a powerful tool to get to know your motives & self & natal chart promise..I am sorry & but I 've never experienced something so EXTREMELY accurate..

Exclude the Composite Chart!

Natals can be put on the side to observe, but horary was first developed for the peasantry who had little idea of when they were born as royalty in ancient times had the control and didn't share it with just anyone.

Look, TamaraL, many of us have had parent child relationships that were struggling endeavors. I have a father soooooo fixed that the entire family knows we aren't going to move him much! For years we would fight because of squ an opp and just who we both are, there were resentments, because he was and is a tough guy. But we both finally resolved through time and love that we were both our own men, and I had to accept his hard personality toward me saved me from the 12th house many times unlike other males I've seen that didn't have a military academy father who demanded perfection or else!

Recently visiting him, I was doing a project for him that he got upset with as he didn't understand I knew more about the work and outcome than he did. I even had to tell him "..if you don't listen and let me get it done right I'm going to go on STRIKE!"

Well I got Step-Mom to smooth him over and explain, and latter he went out and bought me a six-pack of beer as a thank you, yet like he always taught "You are only allowed one beer per day!"

But see TamaraL, we weren't always so agreeable, we even got violent a few times in my youth, but we learned to forgive and accept each other for our differences. But the whole family knows based upon who we both are we could never work together like in a business for any length of time.

But the day I left him last, he stated "..You finally grew up!"

In other words at present your mother and yourself are allergic to each other, but in time if you two can bury your Scorpio vendetta and fixity it may regenerate as a seed as all seeds have to die in order to sprout, and a metamorphosis can phoenix-like rise your relationship higher as years pass and maturity beckons!

But living under one's parent's roof after you've been out on your own can become a Stephen King nightmare!

There is a reason I chose Gregory Peck's Scorpio negative portrayal of a obsessed Scorpio role, watch the film and you will understand you don't change Scorpios, they embark upon something and no one tells the captain of their ship otherwise!

And in the script, the map you gave, your mother is Saturn in Sco as regarding this horary!


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I deleted the chart you posted that was midpoints, for I know you are an astrologer yet may not be a horary artist. You should too, midpoints are Not a horary technique of Antiquity!

I vaguely remember that you may have worked on horaries in the past via this forum.

Anyhow, using the horary horoscope that you posted that is so hard to read and I wish many would use a clearer map, like Liz Greene or the one that is on astro.com that appears before one has a chance to change the STYLE!

Here is the problem with this horary as I reflected upon it lately!

From William Lilly in CAII page 297 under 7th house matters!

APHORISMES and Considerations for
better judging any HORARY
3. The position of Saturn or Mars in the 10th, and they peregrine or unfortunate, or the South Node in that house,. the Artist hardly gets credit by that Question.

In other words what rules the 10th house of the query?

Saturn, though it is Not within the 10th it is the lord.

And I have been on another Forum, where the best horary astrologers in the world missed a certain horary and Lilly's words echoed the mistake.

What is the problem here?

The quesited is actually the 11th as it's your hopes and wishes and Mercury is making a Trine to Saturn, lord of the 11th.

What does Lilly say in regard to your wishes your hopes CAII pages 457-458?

properly belongong unto it.

It is the House of Friends, Hope,
Substance or Riches of Kings.

Of good or ill questions concerning this House.

If the Lord of this house be strong, fortunate, and well aspected of the Lord of the ascendant, it foresheweth the obtaining of the

thing at present hoped for; as also, love and concord of Friends and Acquaintance, if the Question be thereof.

If a man shall have the thing hoped for?

Behold if there be any good aspect between the Lord of the ascendant and the 11th, or Reception or translation of light, or that the Lord of the 11th in the ascendant: all or any of these gives hope of obtaining the same. If there be none of those, behold Moon, and if she be not qualified with the Lord of the 11th, aforesaid, judge the contrary,

Another Judgment concerning the former Question.

When any one asketh for a thing he hopes to have of his Prince, Lord, Master or Noble-man, as sone Dignity, &c. behold if the Lord of the 11th house doe apply unto the Lord of the ascendant, or the Lord of the ascendant to the Lord of the 11th, say then he shall have the thing hoped for; and if the aspect be by Trine or Sextile, he shall obtaine the same with great ease and speed:
but if the aspect be with Square or Opposition, he shall get it with much labor and tediousnesse; yes, although there be Reception of Significators.

If you find the Lord of the 11th in an angle received, judge the thing shall come to passe as he would wish..

If you find the Receiver of the disposition of the Moon in a common Signe, judge he shall have but part of the thing hoped for: If the same Receiver be in a movable Signe, he shall onely have the name, or a probability of having thereof, or else very little of it: but if the same Receiver be in a fixed Signe, he shall have the thing whole and compleat: but if the Receiver of the Moon be infortunate, the matter shall receive damage or hurt, after that he hath the same, or is in possession thereof.

If you find the Receiver of the Moon received, he shall likewise obtaine the same, and more then he looked for: if you find the Lord of the ascendant received, he shall obtaine whatsoever he hoped for: this must be understood in things feasible and possible.

See TamaraL, I had assumed you were a horary artist and you may have knowledge from reading horary and serious study that you had cast the chart and were working on it, but that mid-point curveball turned me around as to the fact you may be like a many on this forum who are devoutly an astrologer yet have no clue as to work out a horary query!
For the quesited is clearly your hopes and wish, 11th house, to have a better relationship with Mom. And Venus is trining Saturn lord of the matter, typically a YES, but what is stopping this?
Look what the Moon is doing and what is that called that she will do to Venus and Saturn?
Yes, we all missed it for Lilly's aphorism told us to beware as few solve the horary correctly!
Oh, I don't know much at all but it just may help if we actually study horary rather than do it half-ace!
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Well-known member
Hello venuschild,

I am bit a confused here. You mentioned:

I deleted the chart you posted that was midpoints, for I know you are an astrologer yet may not be a horary artist. You should too, midpoints are Not a horary technique of Antiquity!

I have removed this chart now, but this was a Composite-midpoints method chart, (as an additional chart- extra question & completely unrelated to the original horary as a chart) I am sorry but I don't see what was so confusing here.
I never used the Composite chart as Horary. I said that I re-posted a new chart -asteroid free on post 1.Thats all.

So you mentioned you noticed some new issues with the original horary. Well thank you for mentioning all these issues but I haven't read W. Lilly's books (I have found some of them on amazon & even bought one.The problem is time & methodology )

At this point I "ll have to mention I am not a Horary Artist neither a professional & but someone who was introduced to astrology 12 months ago & started investigating some personal stuff on my chart & friends charts & just by reading on my own & asking some questions here. I am an amateur & have mentioned that in the past in other threads.I 've never given any horary advice to anyone...I barely can "solve" my own charts lol.
But I agree with what you say on "actually studying horary rather than doing it half-ace" ...ll have to investigate these ideas & rules at some point if I want to move to the next level.Everyone has..
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Well-known member
When you cast that chart, Mercury (your 3rd - communication) and Venus (your 2nd - self worth) in Cancer. Both in Saturn's detriment. So you felt very weak when facing your mother.
Now both have changed signs. Mercury exalted in Virgo, Venus in Leo (still in Saturn's detriment). You are better at expressing yourself but still feeling a bit inferior when facing her.

Mars conjuncts Saturn soon. There is a trine with Chiron. Possible healing.


I'm not saying Mid-points aren't valid in other work than horary, but I try to steer away from post 1700 horary. I stated out doing outer planets because I like so many began horary reading post 1700 horary, it polluted my analysis.

But I'm still open to new concepts providing they are well proven.

It's like this TamaraL and forum, the medical profession endorses drugs that were approved through empirical tests yet they did not, nor can not take 1000 years or 1000 generations to see the effects of various meds. As a result many suffer side effects and are harmed, go into a lawsuits against the pharmaceutical company, and are seriously injured. It's in this vein I believe staying with the tried and proven vanguard will take one farther in horary than newly found concepts that have Not stood up to the test of time.

In the following list TamaraL you'll see Deborah Houlding has a course in horary; yet as she states '...modern planets Do Not rule houses nor signs.'

Why do I say this?

Because I started out studying post 1700 writers and used outers then, until I realized I was going way off the grid, that those whom were serious about horary, who had done it for years may know more than a novice, which I was back in my dawn of horary infantcy. So I went 'HUSH', into the closet, about my leaning toward using the outer planets at all. Until I read Houlding's course, then I knew that being totally traditional was not the way of it(but I totally respect those who are, ROYALY), but to deviate too far on the horary tree limbs, on dead branches that would crack, was not a safe method to follow!




































And Lilly and Coley are found among these iconic works the foundations of our horary art:


TamaraL, when you find the time, happy reading! :wink:
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Well-known member
Thank you for your new responses here.Apologies for the late response!

Dear astr0quest
thank you for your feedback on the chart. I feel what you mentioned here was true:
"So you felt very weak when facing your mother.
Now both have changed signs."

In the past though, but now she is the needy one.I am better at expressing my self because I did a lot of introspection & studied books on mother-daughter unresolved issues.

Dear venuschild
Thank you for giving me this list of astrology courses & references. I deeply appreciate this (!!! you gave it to the right person, believe me) & I 've been searching for reading materials online to create a solid foundation.
(I "ll read them all & Deborah Houlding) I only have read some beginner-books & online books so far. Now I only need time & we 'll see how far can I go.
Its such a powerful tool & I feel that if someone treats this with respect & knowledge it gives you deep insights about situations where you are unable to see the overall issue...:)

Dear Zarathu

Thank so much for suggesting this, I had checked a synastry chart in the recent past & it was mentioned that there is this explosive quality & repressed anger basically. So I think I know what is (therefore I have more clarity & healed wounds nowadays) but she hasn't, as she is older & hasn't understood (bring to surface) her own wounds.
Anyway thank you for saying this!

Best wishes to all,