Why does Saturn rule Aquarius?

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The Thema Mundi was not based on observation
but on an idealized scheme of the heavens.
Empirically Venus is never more than 48 degrees from the sun
but in this stylized chart it is 60 degrees away.

Even so, the odds of getting all of the planets in perfect 30-degree arcs from their neighbours at 15 degrees of their signs
and all in those house positions, is about nil.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi

I'm no expert :smile:

I recall reading amongst Hellenistic material
that the Thema Mundi was indeed a kind of a mythical horoscope
that was used in Hellenistic astrology
and it apparently shows the supposed positions of the seven visible planets (including the Sun and Moon)
at the beginning of the universe


tsmall mentioned elsewhere as well that
if you look at the Thema chart, take the 4th house.
Libra, ruled by Venus (one of the traditional significations of the mother), the exaltation of Saturn.
If we play with the ideas a bit, Libra is the natural 4th house.
Saturn (the father) has a natural affinity with the 4th
(well, that makes a ton of sense, now doesn't it?)
and is exalted by Venus in the house that signifies "home/roots."
This also gives us Saturn's affiliation with death
as the 4th represents death among other things

Thema Mundi is mythically considered the chart of the world
and literally was historically used as a teaching tool for astrologers.
In it you can find the reasons for the domicile rulers, the exaltations, the planetary joys
the nature of the aspects, sect
...on and on it goes.

This pdf is a good starting point for understanding


http://www.azastrologers.org/Article...ThemaMundi.pdf


Douglas Noblehorse article extract focusing on Mars states
http://www.azastrologers.org/Article...ThemaMundi.htm

QUOTE:

The Thema Mundi is a Hellenistic Era Natural Wheel
that illustrates fundamental astrological principles.
In addition, it reveals the inner geometrical elegance
that gives these fundamentals their meaning and definition"


For instance
Mars is associated with Aries and Scorpio
and to a lesser extent
with Capricorn.
Douglas Noblehorse provided useful summary of important considerations
related to basic Mars delineation of natal
(as well as other, such as mundane) astrological charts :smile:
 

obsidianmineral

Well-known member
I'd like to say that I still don't get why Saturn rules Aquarius.. I mean, I already knew of the "furthest distance from the Sun sign" thing and I already knew about Thema Mundi. I just wanna reason out, why the Aquarius personality fits with Saturn so much that Saturn rules the sign. Sure, there are some similarities, but they don't seem that significant. I get that Aquarius is all about working towards change and society, and that fits with Saturn, but it really isn't thaaaat big of a similarity. Virgo works through routines and habits and yet Saturn isn't in rulership, exaltation or in triplicity there.

I completely get why Jupiter rules Pisces since they both agree so much on the "everyone should be happy" side. And it's such a fundamental concept in Pisces and in Jupiter. But in Saturn's case, "work" is a pretty general concept that also matches with other signs like Virgo. I just need a more definitive answer that has to do with the way Aquarius behaves and what Saturn signifies, not vague relationships between the sign of Aquarius and Saturn.
 

waybread

Staff member
I'd like to say that I still don't get why Saturn rules Aquarius.. I mean, I already knew of the "furthest distance from the Sun sign" thing and I already knew about Thema Mundi. I just wanna reason out, why the Aquarius personality fits with Saturn so much that Saturn rules the sign. Sure, there are some similarities, but they don't seem that significant. I get that Aquarius is all about working towards change and society, and that fits with Saturn, but it really isn't thaaaat big of a similarity. Virgo works through routines and habits and yet Saturn isn't in rulership, exaltation or in triplicity there.

I completely get why Jupiter rules Pisces since they both agree so much on the "everyone should be happy" side. And it's such a fundamental concept in Pisces and in Jupiter. But in Saturn's case, "work" is a pretty general concept that also matches with other signs like Virgo. I just need a more definitive answer that has to do with the way Aquarius behaves and what Saturn signifies, not vague relationships between the sign of Aquarius and Saturn.

From a modern perspective, you're probably talking about Uranus, as promoting "change and society." Once Uranus was integrated into modern astrology, it actually changed what people understood Aquarius to be like. Once modern astrologers conflated Aquarius with the 11th house, it changed what they thought Aquarius was like.

If we get back to basic principles, Aquarius is the fixed air sign. This means Aquarius is mental, even intellectual. Aquarians live in their heads a lot of the time. Once having fastened upon ideas that they like, Aquarians do not like to change them.

Saturn has a couple of modalities. It can be Dr. No, who shows where and how we feel inadequate and not good enough.

It can indicate where self-discipline, hard work, and frugality will benefit us, notably in the long term.

But Saturn, in some sense, is also a big realist. No matter how much we want the world to be better than or other than it is, Saturn gives it to us straight. This, I think, is the modern Aquarian Saturn. The truth-teller. Just because "we've always done it this way" doesn't mean a traditional approach is a rational (air) approach. 2+2 do not equal 5 no matter how much we wish it to be the case. Let's look at the world, with all of its troubles, in light of cold, clear logic. (cold=Saturn, logic=air.) Then, and only then, can we begin to improve upon it.

Personality-wise, this is why we Aquarians have a reputation for being emotionally cool and aloof. Sorry, you watery people, but we do not enjoy anything maudlin, clingy, or domineering. It all gets too icky-sticky. We do not need to merge with you on a soul or any other level. We're an air sign (mental) ruled by a cold, dry planet (Saturn) and we need our space. Thank you very much for respecting that in us.

Uranus adds to this basic Aquarian template some orientation towards the future, an interest in liberation, and a willingness to shake up a stagnant status quo.
 

rahu

Banned
[deleted attacking comment - Moderator] Saturn rules Aquarius because in ancient times to the discovery of the planet Uranus, Saturn was the boundary between the real world and the world of spirits. Saturn was the only planet with rings, and these rings gave Saturn a portal to the higher realms. For this reason Saturn ruled all forms of magic and ruled the transition from mortal to immortal life. The ring system was described as "the ring pass, not pass " dividing line between the spirit world and the real world. As such the attributes we give Aquarius were in the domain of Saturn. Saturn is the adept, those who know how to manipulate the highest planes of existence.
rahu
 
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waybread

Staff member
[deleted attacking comment - Moderator] Saturn rules Aquarius because in ancient times to the discovery of the planet Uranus, Saturn was the boundary between the real world and the world of spirits. Saturn was the only planet with rings, and these rings gave Saturn a portal to the higher realms. For this reason Saturn ruled all forms of magic and ruled the transition from mortal to immortal life. The ring system was described as "the ring pass, not pass " dividing line between the spirit world and the real world. As such the attributes we give Aquarius were in the domain of Saturn. Saturn is the adept, those who know how to manipulate the highest planes of existence.
rahu

Rahu, where does this come from? Mme Blavatsky? The discovery of Saturn's rings by Galileo in 1610 awaited the development of decent telescopes.

Now we know that Jupiter, Uranus, and Neptune also have ring systems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_system

There is nothing intrinsic to planetary rings that give a planet a portal status to magic. People have believed in magic since the dawn of humanity. Saturn never ruled "all forms of magic" as most magic practiced in ancient times had nothing to do with astrology.

Gosh, as someone with the sun, Mercury, and Venus in Aquarius and Jupiter in Capricorn, are you saying I should "know how to manipulate the highest planes of existence."?

As a modern Aquarian would say, "Does not compute."
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I am totally amazed how little astrological history many self proclaimed experts have. Saturn rules Aquarius because in ancient times to the discovery of the planet Uranus, Saturn was the boundary between the real world and the world of spirits. Saturn was the only planet with rings, and these rings gave Saturn a portal to the higher realms. For this reason Saturn ruled all forms of magic and ruled the transition from mortal to immortal life. The ring system was described as "the ring pass, not pass " dividing line between the spirit world and the real world. As such the attributes we give Aquarius were in the domain of Saturn. Saturn is the adept, those who know how to manipulate the highest planes of existence.
rahu

Saturn is the most powerful Ruler of the Material-realm. Notice this sentence: "....Saturn was the boundary between the real world and the world of spirits." Actually, the Spiritual world is just as "real" as the Materialistic world. Saturn establishes a dangerous barrier between the two Worlds, making it next to impossible to travel back and forth between them, and makes it difficult to believe the Spiritual world "really" exists at all. Neptune, the most powerful Ruler of the Spiritual-realm, is out to dissolve Saturn's barrier entirely, and in the meantime is making it somewhat easier to cross. The Uranian approach is the leave the barrier in place, and simply create Portals, by which back and forth crossing can be easily achieved once such a Portal is located. Aquarius is the Sign best suited for traversing the Uranian Portals.
 
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rahu

Banned
Saturn is the most powerful Ruler of the Material-realm. Notice this sentence: "....Saturn was the boundary between the real world and the world of spirits." Actually, the Spiritual world is just as "real" as the Materialistic world. Saturn establishes a dangerous barrier between the two Worlds, making it next to impossible to travel back and forth between them, and makes it difficult to believe the Spiritual world "really" exists at all. Neptune, the most powerful Ruler of the Spiritual-realm, is out to dissolve Saturn's barrier, and in the meantime is making it easier to cross.

As I said, Saturn was historically the boundary between the mundane world and the world of spirits.
Your modern insights are interesting but you can't change what the ancients thought rahu
 

Cap

Well-known member
Happy New Year to you all!

Interesting article from Skyscript relevant to the topic:

When & why did Uranus become associated with Aquarius?

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ur_aq.html

In short, article starts off with Robert Hand's statement:

In an interview in 1996, Robert Hand states:

"At any rate, Raphael was the one who assigned Uranus to Aquarius. And the first thing that I understand about Raphael was that he was a terrible astrologer by any standards - traditional or modern. He was basically more interested in selling magical charms and amulets than in doing astrology really well". [1]


Then, it goes on to show that not everyone was excited about the idea that Uranus rules Aquarius:

If we assume that the first Raphael attributed rulership of Uranus to Aquarius, then it suggests that later astrologers would share this view. Certainly this does not appear to be the case in the late nineteenth century. AJ Pearce's (Zadkiel) Text Book of Astrology was published in 1879. In this he states, rather petulantly:

Some modern authors have assigned Aquarius to Uranus, thus either robbing Saturn of his 'day house' or forcing upon him a partner. However until experience teaches us in what signs Uranus and Neptune are most powerful, I must decline to endorse so hasty an attempt to provide for one of the 'houseless wanderers'.

Sepharial, in his Manual of Astrology 1898, didn't believe that Uranus ruled Aquarius:

The dominion of Uranus is indefinite, for he has no house of his own, though he is most successfully placed in the airy triplicity….

As late as 1909, Alan Leo wrote in Everybody's Astrology:

Uranus has been given no sign by astrologers, though Aquarius has often been suggested…


Finally, the conclusion is that John Varley is "the father" of Uranus's rulership over Aquarius:

The often forgotten astrologer and friend of the artist William Blake, John Varley, wrote a little known book entitled A Treatise on Zoadiacal Physiognomy in 1828. In this he states:

Aries and Scorpio are the houses of Mars, Taurus and Libra are the houses of Venus, Gemini and Virgo are under the dominion of Mercury, Cancer is the house of the Moon, Sagittarius and Pisces are the houses of Jupiter, Capricorn is the house of Saturn; and Aquarius is governed by the Herschel planet.



From my personal experience:

Anyone who has ever tried to use "outer planets" as sign rulers in the field of horary and event astrology (where it is relatively easy to verify results) can tell you that this simply doesn't work. "Outers" as sign rulers will produce wrong delineations over and over again. I am yet to meet serious astrologer who uses Uranus as a ruler of Aquarius in event and horary astrology and claims good results. This is particularly true in sports astrology (where there's usually money at stake and every mistake shows in the wallet).

It is not that "outers" don't have any significance, they simply don't "work" as sign rulers. After several thousand sport astrology charts I can say that:
Uranus on angles usually signifies high scoring matches and adds some sort of "craziness" to the event
Neptune on angles usually signifies low scoring as in "not much happening"
Pluto on angles usually signifies some sort of turnaround in the event

Generally, this "works" if you use 1 degree orb maximum. Also, retrogradation matters and they produce different results on different angles.

Similarly, "outers" can be used in horary in case of very tight conjunctions with significators and angles, all 3 tend to act as malefics and usually they signify undesirable things. Overall, every horary chart can be successfully delineated without them.

Last but not least, popular belief that existence of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto is a modern day discovery rests on very shaky ground:

Mention of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto in Mahabharata

http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/vedic_science/mention-uranus-neptune-pluto-mahabharata/
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
I just wanna reason out, why the Aquarius personality fits with Saturn so much that Saturn rules the sign. Sure, there are some similarities, but they don't seem that significant. I get that Aquarius is all about working towards change and society, and that fits with Saturn, but it really isn't thaaaat big of a similarity. Virgo works through routines and habits and yet Saturn isn't in rulership, exaltation or in triplicity there.

???
What planet rules habits?
Donna Cunningham says Moon.
???
 

david starling

Well-known member
Process of elimination. :uranus: is clearly in the Air-rulership category, because it affects the mind. Gemini is clearly ruled by Mercury, and Libra by Venus. That leaves Aquarius, which is too broad minded and "above-it-all" to be under the heavy, materialistic, restrictive rulership of Saturn in Modern-astrology. Traditionally, there are two versions of Saturnian-rulership, both day and night, and that can explain why Saturn fits both Signs in that paradigm.
 

waybread

Staff member
As I said, Saturn was historically the boundary between the mundane world and the world of spirits.
Your modern insights are interesting but you can't change what the ancients thought rahu

The point being, that if Saturn's rings weren't discovered until 1610, the ancients (and they were by no means uniform) couldn't possibly have made some delineation based on Saturn's rings.

rahu, what are your sources here?
 

waybread

Staff member
Cap, I note that you do not mention the use of modern outers as sign rulers in modern natal astrology. I use both traditional and modern rulers in natal chart interpretation, and both have value-- in this context.

One point to keep in mind, in any house system but whole signs, is that the house containing the first part (or all) of the sign of Aquarius may have Capricorn on the cusp. This gives Saturn some extra significance when interpreting Aquarian planets in that house.
 

waybread

Staff member
Process of elimination. :uranus: is clearly in the Air-rulership category, because it affects the mind. Gemini is clearly ruled by Mercury, and Libra by Venus. That leaves Aquarius, which is too broad minded and "above-it-all" to be under the heavy, materialistic, restrictive rulership of Saturn in Modern-astrology. Traditionally, there are two versions of Saturnian-rulership, both day and night, and that can explain why Saturn fits both Signs in that paradigm.

David, Uranus affects whatever sign it touches. It has no particular relevance to the mind. For that matter, that Roman love goddess hussy was not notably cerebral.

Saturn affects and is affected by whatever sign it touches. Saturn does tend to render things more concrete and material. But maybe this is why Aquarius (modernly) is the sign of the scientist. Science begins with hypotheses and theories. Then these get rendered into methodologies, experimental designs, results, and conclusions. If they get further rendered into applications, they have a very material outcome. What Saturn teaches is a kind of cool logic and ground-truth. Uranus gives the flash of insight, the "Eureka!" moment.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Saturn is the most powerful Ruler of the Material-realm. Notice this sentence: "....Saturn was the boundary between the real world and the world of spirits." Actually, the Spiritual world is just as "real" as the Materialistic world. Saturn establishes a dangerous barrier between the two Worlds, making it next to impossible to travel back and forth between them, and makes it difficult to believe the Spiritual world "really" exists at all. Neptune, the most powerful Ruler of the Spiritual-realm, is out to dissolve Saturn's barrier entirely,

As a natal Saturn applying square to Neptune, A-M-E-N to that. Not very helpful for those 'grounded'people.:wink:

and in the meantime is making it somewhat easier to cross. The Uranian approach is the leave the barrier in place, and simply create Portals, by which back and forth crossing can be easily achieved once such a Portal is located. Aquarius is the Sign best suited for traversing the Uranian Portals.

As one of the Uranus trine Neptune individuals, with Saturn and Uranus in the same sign, astrology has been mentally 'a portal' in the attempt to 'cross the line' of this far and no further that manifestational Saturn so definintely draws.:smile:
 

Cap

Well-known member
Cap, I note that you do not mention the use of modern outers as sign rulers in modern natal astrology. I use both traditional and modern rulers in natal chart interpretation, and both have value-- in this context.

One point to keep in mind, in any house system but whole signs, is that the house containing the first part (or all) of the sign of Aquarius may have Capricorn on the cusp. This gives Saturn some extra significance when interpreting Aquarian planets in that house.

I don't have enough practical experience in natal astrology to make any claims, but I assume that the same principles apply in all of astrology. I can only say that "outer" planets do have a meaning in natal astrology, based on Venus conj. Neptune in my own chart. I guess I would classify myself as an open minded traditionalist leaning towards pragmatism and eclecticism. A lot of useful stuff, for instance, can be found in Vedic astrology too. In that regard, Dr Farr is an AW member who has made a long lasting impression on me.

My main criticism of modern astrology (besides the rulership issue) is its focus on personality/psychology. People already know themselves better than any astrologer could tell them, I don't see practical value in this. From a practical standpoint, the most useful forms of astrology are horary, event, electional (which is really event astrology in reverse) and medical (but one must possess medical knowledge as well to successfully practice it). I don't need astrology to assist me in my spiritual endeavors, there are much more potent techniques for that, such as meditation and yoga.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
My main criticism of modern astrology (besides the rulership issue) is its focus on personality/psychology. People already know themselves better than any astrologer could tell them, I don't see practical value in this. From a practical standpoint, the most useful forms of astrology are horary, event, electional (which is really event astrology in reverse) and medical (but one must possess medical knowledge as well to successfully practice it). I don't need astrology to assist me in my spiritual endeavors, there are much more potent techniques for that, such as meditation and yoga.
There's an undeniable connection between thoughts, feelings and state of health and how your life unfolds. As the famous quote goes:

"Watch your thoughts, they become words;
watch your words, they become actions;
watch your actions, they become habits;
watch your habits, they become character;
watch your character, for it becomes your destiny."

In that sense, modern and traditional just deal with different stages of the creation process, the process of turning thoughts into things. Both have their place. I guess this also explains why modern astrology gives free will a much greater role than traditional astrology because it's focused mostly on the first stages of creation (thought patterns and habits) where there's still a lot of latitude for the individual because that's where momentum is created, while traditional astrology is mostly focused on the final stage of creation, the specific physical event, where there's next to no latitude left to the individual except going with the full-blown momentum or making minor adjustments. It all depends on what you are looking for.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
The point being, that if Saturn's rings weren't discovered until 1610, the ancients (and they were by no means uniform) couldn't possibly have made some delineation based on Saturn's rings.

rahu, what are your sources here?
Are you familiar with the Great Year theory and how it relates to history and eras of development?
 

Cap

Well-known member
There's an undeniable connection between thoughts, feelings and state of health and how your life unfolds. As the famous quote goes:

"Watch your thoughts, they become words;
watch your words, they become actions;
watch your actions, they become habits;
watch your habits, they become character;
watch your character, for it becomes your destiny."

In that sense, modern and traditional just deal with different stages of the creation process, the process of turning thoughts into things. Both have their place. I guess this also explains why modern astrology gives free will a much greater role than traditional astrology because it's focused mostly on the first stages of creation (thought patterns and habits) where there's still a lot of latitude for the individual because that's where momentum is created, while traditional astrology is mostly focused on the final stage of creation, the specific physical event, where there's next to no latitude left to the individual except going with the full-blown momentum or making minor adjustments. It all depends on what you are looking for.

You make a good point!

I can give credit to modern astrology for exploring the initial stages of creation in this 3D reality. However, I don't consider any form of reality manipulation, whether it is applying LOA, chanting materialistic mantras or any other similar technique to be spiritual in nature. It is nice to know the rules of the game but by applying them for the fulfillment of his/her wishes one still stays deep rooted in the system. In that sense, astrology is of little to no help in spiritual matters.
 

obsidianmineral

Well-known member
I don't have enough practical experience in natal astrology to make any claims, but I assume that the same principles apply in all of astrology. I can only say that "outer" planets do have a meaning in natal astrology, based on Venus conj. Neptune in my own chart. I guess I would classify myself as an open minded traditionalist leaning towards pragmatism and eclecticism. A lot of useful stuff, for instance, can be found in Vedic astrology too. In that regard, Dr Farr is an AW member who has made a long lasting impression on me.

My main criticism of modern astrology (besides the rulership issue) is its focus on personality/psychology. People already know themselves better than any astrologer could tell them, I don't see practical value in this. From a practical standpoint, the most useful forms of astrology are horary, event, electional (which is really event astrology in reverse) and medical (but one must possess medical knowledge as well to successfully practice it). I don't need astrology to assist me in my spiritual endeavors, there are much more potent techniques for that, such as meditation and yoga.

It may surprise you, but not everyone knows themselves 100% nor do they know their talents or what they're gonna be in life. Plus, modern astrology doesn't stop talking about facts and predictions. And honestly, the generational planet's rulership has been tested in order to check that these planets really do have a sign, and it turns out they do. People weren't even sure about Uranus's rulership 100 years after its discovery; that goes to show how much modern astrologers were wary of it not working, and yet, it was accepted in the end and that clearly was because it had worked.


You're doubting the most popular form of astrology based purely on how much use it has to you, which makes it a pretty weak argument to use. In fact, I personally have witnessed horary to be even less accurate and reliable than natal astrology, which gives me some arguments to be against horary.


And now, focusing on what I do agree with you, I have to say that outer planets only work in natal charts as far as I know. You may consider Uranus in horary astrology and if it has a special significance in a certain chart, but that's as far as it goes in my opinion.
 
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