Why am I a very logical person?

Julian

Banned
And I have Mercury in Pisces. I used to identify myself with Mercury in Pisces 100%, and I still do, but last year my brother taught me how to be better at maths (he's Mercury in Gemini) and ever since then somehow I've become very logical aswell.

Also my family has a very strong Mercury by general rules. My dad is a Gemini ascendant, my brother is a gemini sun and mercury, my mom has a mutual reception by exaltation between Jupiter and Mercury... etc.

I think that I'm logical because:

-I have Venus and Saturn in Taurus
-Mercury stationary direct
-Mercury trine Mars (weak)
-Mercury trine Ascendant
-Mercury sextile Venus

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waybread

Well-known member
I don't know that you're more logical than the average person, but your chart is low in the water element. Water is associated with the emotions.
 

Julian

Banned
I don't know that you're more logical than the average person, but your chart is low in the water element. Water is associated with the emotions.

People have told me I'm very logical and intelligent.


Low in the water element? Why? I have Mars in Scorpio, Mercury in Pisces and I'm a Cancer rising.
 

Tessie

Banned
And I have Mercury in Pisces. I used to identify myself with Mercury in Pisces 100%, and I still do, but last year my brother taught me how to be better at maths (he's Mercury in Gemini) and ever since then somehow I've become very logical aswell.

Well, maths is nothing if not logical. Orientation toward system rather than intuitive cognition is a side-effect of studying maths in some people. Logic is the study of principles of correct reasoning. Maths allows us to test truth values of claims. However, what consititutes truth is another matter. The philosophical branch of epistemology is important and deals with that consideration which, in turn, underpins mathematical problems and research. Our limited capacity cognition often steers toward misusing logic to confine truth which may be greater than mere mortals can appreciate. I believe your Mercury in Pisces is well placed to appreciate that greater picture or at least both sides of the coin, if you become dedicated to the pursuit.

♥​
 

Krewster

Well-known member
Maybe bec Merc is your cleanest-aspected personal planet.

-decile to Uran;

-triangulating your tight Jup 120 Pluto via semi-novile aspects (20-120-100);

Only that tight 150 to the Moon is assumed difficult (and may even contribute to you choosing Merc over the Moon as a go-to place/space in which to be; especially considering the Moon tri-septile Ven is apex-midpointed by Nept bi-septiling each side).

Every personal planet aspect mentioned is tighter than 30 min.

p.s. off topic, but are you from a well-off background...? (such a tight Sun/Jup within 5 min-tightly-orbed decile to Ven could/should indicate that although Ven also suffers afflictions)....PM me if you prefer.
 

Julian

Banned
Well I THINK my dad has a pretty good income and I've been to a lot of places in the world, but I've never been rich.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Julian, you didn't switch charts on me, did you?

Mars is strong in its own sign of Scorpio (traditional rulership) but is opposed by Saturn in the earth sign of Taurus, so this tends to dampen (no pun intended) its expression. Your Mars is squared by Uranus in Aquarius. Cancer rising is ruled by the moon in the air sign of Libra.

When you unpack a chart like this, you can begin to see how strong the different elements are. One of the strongest planets in your chart is Venus, in her own sign of Taurus in the 10th house.
 

Julian

Banned
Julian, you didn't switch charts on me, did you?

Mars is strong in its own sign of Scorpio (traditional rulership) but is opposed by Saturn in the earth sign of Taurus, so this tends to dampen (no pun intended) its expression. Your Mars is squared by Uranus in Aquarius. Cancer rising is ruled by the moon in the air sign of Libra.

When you unpack a chart like this, you can begin to see how strong the different elements are. One of the strongest planets in your chart is Venus, in her own sign of Taurus in the 10th house.

The maximum orb for a mars-saturn opposition is 8 degrees and less when separative. Mine is separative. I consider the sun to be stronger than venus.

Also I NEVER switched charts. Why would I do that? You must be confused
 

waybread

Well-known member
Julian, if you know so much astrology, I am surprised that you see the need to ask others for advice. Since you know so much astrology, you are aware that different astrologers use different orbs. Your Mars-Saturn-Neptune are involved in a T-square. I tend to allow a slightly wider orb where a third planet or midpoint is involved.

But gosh! With your sun-Jupiter in Aries, no wonder you know so much. ;)
 

Julian

Banned
Julian, if you know so much astrology, I am surprised that you see the need to ask others for advice. Since you know so much astrology, you are aware that different astrologers use different orbs. Your Mars-Saturn-Neptune are involved in a T-square. I tend to allow a slightly wider orb where a third planet or midpoint is involved.

But gosh! With your sun-Jupiter in Aries, no wonder you know so much. ;)

Yeah I guess and I'm only 16.

Anyway I don't believe I have Mars square Neptune there.Traditionally speaking, Neptune and Mars can only make an aspect if there is a 6º orb maximum, and mine is over that. There is a square by sign only. The T-square in my chart is Mars-Venus-Uranus and the orbs aren't tight at all, because Mars is opposed to Venus by almost 7 degrees (the maximum orb in traditional astrology) and it's separative.

Also I guess I am slightly disruptive in the forums because I have Mars square Uranus to the 7th and I have umm... Mercury in Pisces? Nah, that is not how I express myself...

I think that it's because Mars is receiving a quincunx from the Sun and Jupiter

[deleted off-topic comment - Moderator]
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Julian, your posts reflect how I would expect a 16-year old guy with sun-Jupiter conjunct in Aries to respond. (Maybe just sit with that one for a while.)

I've been studying astrology since about 1990. Some of the seniors here have been studying it a lot longer than I have. When we just start out learning astrology, we kind of have to go "by the book" as you are doing, or it would be too difficult to find our way through the thousands of data bits and bytes that make up a horoscope. As we mature as people and as chart-readers, however, we begin to get more of an intuitive feel for both people and horoscopes, and to pull in more information.

My preferred type of astrology is western modern astrology. If it is yours, also, I highly recommend: Robert Hand, Planets in Youth and Planets in Transit; and Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky. If you prefer western traditional astrology, a good primer is Avelar and Rebeiro, On the Heavenly Spheres and there are many tutorial-type articles at the Skyscript website. (The books are available at amazon.com and elsewhere.) Then horary astrology is something else again, but with more in common with traditional than with modern astrology.

Many modern astrologers do count out-of-sign aspects in a natal chart reading without getting concerned about an orb reduction. See, for example, Bil Tierney, Dynamics of Aspect Analysis, on dissociate aspects. After I learned that a given planet will be 27 degrees different in the sidereal and tropical zodiacs, I couldn't get too fussed about out-of-sign aspects. We wouldn't normally count out-of-sign aspects in horary astrology unless an applying aspect is really close, however. Horary rules are different.

In my experience, if someone has a natal major aspect that looks a little bit wide; but a third planet forms a major aspect to them both (especially if it conjuncts their midpoint,) the two wide-orb planets are more linked than one might think, especially when the middle one is hit by a major transit.

I'd give you a T-square in the fixed signs of Taurus (Saturn at 3o 31'), Scorpio (Mars at 10o 55', say at 11,) and Aquarius. You've got Neptune at just about 4 degrees. This gives us orbs of roughly 30' for Neptune/Saturn; and 7.5 degrees for Neptune/Mars which most modern astrologers would accept but see as wide. Then Uranus would normally be seen as a bit too distant for Uranus square Saturn; but in-orb for Uranus/Mars. So is it part of this configuration or not? I'd say yes, because the Uranus/Neptune midpoint is at roughly 10 degrees Aquarius. In effect, Mars is pulling these two together beyond what one would expect from the Neptune/Uranus midpoint alone. A major transit to 10 degrees Aquarius pulls in 3 planets here.

But wait! There's more! ;)

We could even go further with your Saturn-Venus midpoint at roughly 10 degrees Taurus.....and Scorpio. Every planetary pair actually has 2 midpoints-- the near one and the far one. Your Venus-Saturn far midpoint actually conjuncts Mars, further pulling Saturn into the configuration with Mars.

(Indeed, major transits to 10 or 11 degrees of any sign are going to ping on a lot of your horoscope placements.)

At the end of the day, you know you have an aspect when you feel it. The danger in learning astrology so young, consequently, is that you may begin to define yourself astrologically while your personality is still forming; rather than waiting to learn who you become first without it. In astrology it is too easy to deny personality traits that we don't see in our charts, even though they are there-- just not showing up in ways we expected. And vice versa. We can define ourselves too rigidly. The advantage is that if astrology is a field that you love, at age 16, you have a huge head start on it.
 

Krewster

Well-known member
Skimming thru the otherwise good advice given, didn’t notice reference to the following reasons why you have no T-squares actually...;)
-if you recognize minors, then inadvertent overlap needs avoiding and so orbs can’t be widened for any excuse (e.g., to create or complete a pretty config);
-if playing with only 5 aspects some people widen their normal orbs to bridge gaps at or near a midpoint to create configs but your Mars is not so situated in relation to your two tight 90’s;
-orbs have dimmer switches (the label Mars 180 Sat has many meanings at the loose 5-10% strength end of which the aspect is hardly worth considering).
Not to worry, your enviable Sun/Jup “red” triangulates your Sat 90 Nept at the 1/3-2/3’s point (i.e., a semi-octile and a tri-semi-octile, 5 and 36 min orbed respectively; so there’s enough “red” in your chart without stretching for any oppos to create T-squares.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Hey, Krewster-- you probably recall that I enjoy working with minor aspects and harmonics, as well. Indeed, one reason why I pay attention to aspects that are 10 degrees out, is because they form a tight square in the 9H chart. But are you saying you don't work with midpoints? I don't think so, but you don't seem to believe that a midpoint in the radix chart is a highly salient sensitive point if it pulls together several other planets.
 
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Julian

Banned
Skimming thru the otherwise good advice given, didn’t notice reference to the following reasons why you have no T-squares actually...;)
-if you recognize minors, then inadvertent overlap needs avoiding and so orbs can’t be widened for any excuse (e.g., to create or complete a pretty config);
-if playing with only 5 aspects some people widen their normal orbs to bridge gaps at or near a midpoint to create configs but your Mars is not so situated in relation to your two tight 90’s;
-orbs have dimmer switches (the label Mars 180 Sat has many meanings at the loose 5-10% strength end of which the aspect is hardly worth considering).
Not to worry, your enviable Sun/Jup “red” triangulates your Sat 90 Nept at the 1/3-2/3’s point (i.e., a semi-octile and a tri-semi-octile, 5 and 36 min orbed respectively; so there’s enough “red” in your chart without stretching for any oppos to create T-squares.


"Not to worry, your enviable Sun/Jup “red” triangulates your Sat 90 Nept at the 1/3-2/3’s point (i.e., a semi-octile and a tri-semi-octile, 5 and 36 min orbed respectively; so there’s enough “red” in your chart without stretching for any oppos to create T-squares."

What? I don't understand what you're saying there.

Also thanks breadway for all your advice. I always loved bread. Lol.
 
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Julian

Banned
Also speaking of harmonics and stuff, I just found out I have a grand trine between Sun-Jup in Taurus, to Virgo Mars and Capricorn Pluto in the 4th harmonic, which is about effort and conflict.

In the 5th harmonic which is about creativity I have Sun-Jup in Taurus trine to Pluto conjunct Saturn in Virgo and these to a Capricorn Moon

sounds good!
 

Krewster

Well-known member
Julian, octiles (45 and 135 degree aspects) and semi-octiles (one-half of 45) are just as “red” as the oppo and the square, derived in nature as they are from them. If you're looking to identify sources of trouble in your chart, how about focusing on these much tighter-orbed “red” aspects, instead of the above-discussed T-squares which are way loose orbed.
Waybread, nice to bump into each other again...;) I’m not up-to-speed on your point (e.g., what 10 degree loose aspect...?... and whose 9th H chart...?....Julian’s doesn’t have any conjunctions, other than the natal chart’s Sun/Jup).
Re midpoints, I observe them in the sense that each time I approach the process of absorbing a new minor with an even higher denominator, the aspect set is tweaked to also display its “semi” (with an unthinkably higher double the denominator) because I am mindful of the importance of not missing out on the almost ?trebling? of configurations which come to visual life.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Hi Krewster-- just that a conjunction that is exactly 10 degrees off exact becomes a tight square in the 9th harmonic chart. In Hindu astrology the 9H chart says a lot about how someone's course-of-life actually works out.

So I hope I take your point that a wide orb should be examined to see whether it is actually a tight minor aspect (I. e., a telling aspect in a harmonic chart.)
 

Krewster

Well-known member
Waybread, isn’t a square in a 9th H chart actually (more originally) a 36th H aspect...? and isn’t a 36th H aspect 10 degrees (i.e., 36/360 = ____).
So, of course, a 10 degree wide separation betw two planets is the 36th; and
yes, wide-orbed major aspects are *always* more accurately (mathematically) a tighter something else.
But it doesn’t follow that it helps to mislabel planetary relationships as super-loose major aspects since I don’t see how so-doing becomes a gateway for those interested in minors. A more likely gateway would be to force oneself to notice all planets which don’t appear to influence each personal planet (due to lack of a major aspect) and then to figure out what the minor is (easy as pie if you’ve got your own astro software).
Feel free to PM me but our dialogue here seems to be lost in translation (strange since we’ve got about 50 years of english-language education between us...;)
 

waybread

Well-known member
Krewster, I look at so-called minor aspects and harmonics in two ways. One is to consider the aspect within the radix chart. The other is to read the harmonic chart itself-- through the lens of what that harmonic represents. If I want to spend time with a chart that seems to respond better to one of the minors than to the majors, usually I will look back and forth between the radix and harmonic chart.

The book that really helped me to read harmonic charts was Harding and Harvey, Working with Astrology. They define the 36H (p. 299) as ""showing the characteristic way in which the individual actualizes (2) and makes manifest (4) their ideals [9]."Which is pretty much how I'd interpret an exact square in the 9H chart, with the caveat that the square indicates inner pressure and tension, as well. This book has a lot of information on midpoints, as well.

Member Alice McDermott's website www.aliceportman.com has some wonderful articles on harmonics-- both lower and higher. She's done a lot of research on them. I also found David Cochrane, Astrology for the 21st Century helpful for reading harmonic charts.

So of course, 4x9=36. I sometimes get more practical benefits out of reading aspects in the mid-range (2 prime numbers such as 2x7=14H, or a simple multiplication of one prime number like the 16H) or lower prime number (5H, 7H) harmonic charts, because with the higher harmonics, minor aspects' orbs in the radix have to be about nil to how up meaningfully in the higher harmonic.

But getting back to Julian's chart, when we see aspects that seem a wee bit out-of-orb, I think it's not wise to be too hard-and-fast with exclusionary standard orb rules if: (a) two slightly out-of-orb planets are both in a major in-orb aspect with a third planet, (b) a midpoint is involved (and here I wouldn't look further than a conjunction with the near or far (opposition) midpoint or the square; or (c) they are linked in a minor aspect with much the same meaning as the wide major aspect. Of course, with a stellium in a sign or house, you can get several planets that seem out-of-orb, yet where, nevertheless, their midpoints and "third party" planets (say a square) pulls them closer together.

I might also mention that some professional astrologers use wider orbs than Julian likes, to begin with. I suppose they get good results. The default orbs at Astrodienst seem to be 12 degrees for the luminaries, and 10 for major aspects with the planets.

The following are the orbs given in Avelar and Rebeiro's textbook on traditional western astrology, On the Heavenly Spheres, p. 108. Of course, the trads didn't deal with minor aspects !

Saturn, Jupiter: 9 degrees (radius, i.e., on either side)
Mars: 8 degrees
Sun: 15 degrees
Venus, Mercury: 7 degrees
Moon: 12 degrees
 

Krewster

Well-known member
Waybread, not sure why you refer to what famous people think when you probably already know my style is to reach astro conclusions only based on direct observations of personally known natives.
Along these lines (unless Julian is stepping up to the plate), feel free to share any of your personally known natives’ charts as illustrations of why you seem less concerned than I about a wide and/or flexible orb policy moving one’s use of astrology in the direction of cherry-picking poetry (still an interesting hobby I suppose).
In the meantime, I expect I’ll continue to collect observations such as (in relation to a Sun 120 Jup):
-tighter than one degree = fairly assured ?social ?success (define to taste);
-betw 1.3-ish and 2.3-ish degrees = might be superseded by conflicting aspects;
-looser than 3-ish degrees = the native won’t stand out ?socially (define to taste) unless as a result of another aspect.
I understand without puffed-up orbs those ignoring minors and/or relying on inherently-limited, cloud-provided astro functionality will suffer a shortage of raw aspectual data to play with but, again please, direct observations are more persuasive.
 
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