Summery Joy
Well-known member
I keep reading different things and I'm getting confused. Is the natal chart ruler the ruler of the sun sign, the ruler of the rising sign or the ruler of the sign with the most planets?
Which planet rules the chart?
- Thread starter Summery Joy
- Start date
wilsontc
Well-known member
Ruler of the chart
heart,
As you found out, deciding which planet is the "chart ruler" can get pretty confusing. Ask seven different astrologers and you just might get seven different answers!
For me, I don't focus on which planet rules the house cusps (including ruler of Asc, MH, IC, and Desc), but instead on which planets are focused in which house. I then look for repeating patterns in the chart which emphasize certain "key energies":
For example if a chart has:
- T-square focused on 1rst house (being, also action)
- Stellium (collection of energy) focused in 1rst house (being, also action)
- More planets are in Aries (being, also action) than any other sign)
- Mars (being, also action) is focused in the 1rst house (being, also action)
If I see a chart such as this, I have a pretty good idea that "action" is VERY important in this person's life!
Giving rules for charting,
Tim
heart,
As you found out, deciding which planet is the "chart ruler" can get pretty confusing. Ask seven different astrologers and you just might get seven different answers!
For me, I don't focus on which planet rules the house cusps (including ruler of Asc, MH, IC, and Desc), but instead on which planets are focused in which house. I then look for repeating patterns in the chart which emphasize certain "key energies":For example if a chart has:
- T-square focused on 1rst house (being, also action)
- Stellium (collection of energy) focused in 1rst house (being, also action)
- More planets are in Aries (being, also action) than any other sign)
- Mars (being, also action) is focused in the 1rst house (being, also action)
If I see a chart such as this, I have a pretty good idea that "action" is VERY important in this person's life!
Giving rules for charting,
Tim
Elianah
Well-known member
Hi Sore,
As far as I have read, the ruler of the chart is the planet that rules the sign of the ASC—in your case, Mercury, which is in one of the natural houses it rules, the third.
This can get a bit confusing at times unless you find a way to think about it. What I do is the following:
1) Start with the natural zodiac, with 0° Aries at the ASC.
2) The Houses never move and retain the energy of their natural rulers as overtones no matter what signs or planets they have. For example, the 1st house would still retain overtones of Aries and Mars, even though they may not be anywhere near the 1st house.
3) If a planet appears in a house it naturally rules, like Mercury does for you in the 3rd, it accentuates the overtone of the house. The energy will still be colored by the particular sign that is on the cusp of the house and the because it is the main note of the area, as well as any other sign that appears in the house. The sign that is not on the cusp is the undertone and also affects how the energy of the house operates.
4) The whole chart carries the overtone of the ruler of the sign of the 1st. In the case of Mercury, one might say that a Mercurian tint is placed over the way the chart's energy works as a whole. Just think of the old adage that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and it may help you grasp how the whole works through this tinting process.
Hope this helps. As always, take what is useful to you and ditch the rest.
As far as I have read, the ruler of the chart is the planet that rules the sign of the ASC—in your case, Mercury, which is in one of the natural houses it rules, the third.
This can get a bit confusing at times unless you find a way to think about it. What I do is the following:
1) Start with the natural zodiac, with 0° Aries at the ASC.
2) The Houses never move and retain the energy of their natural rulers as overtones no matter what signs or planets they have. For example, the 1st house would still retain overtones of Aries and Mars, even though they may not be anywhere near the 1st house.
3) If a planet appears in a house it naturally rules, like Mercury does for you in the 3rd, it accentuates the overtone of the house. The energy will still be colored by the particular sign that is on the cusp of the house and the because it is the main note of the area, as well as any other sign that appears in the house. The sign that is not on the cusp is the undertone and also affects how the energy of the house operates.
4) The whole chart carries the overtone of the ruler of the sign of the 1st. In the case of Mercury, one might say that a Mercurian tint is placed over the way the chart's energy works as a whole. Just think of the old adage that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and it may help you grasp how the whole works through this tinting process.
Hope this helps. As always, take what is useful to you and ditch the rest.
Lunar Pisces
Well-known member
I used to waffle on this, but have decided that the ASC really ought to be considered the ruler, for the reasons that Elianah stated, and then some. The natal chart is a horoscope of the relationship between the the known cosmos and a specific point in space and time, and while there are many layers to a horoscopes, the ASC serves as the initial point of *reference* in regards to how the elements and bodies of the horoscope interact with the native.
As Elianah said, planets and houses still retain their native essences, regardless to their sign in a horoscope. But for the purpose of intrepretating the horoscope as an ineractive whole in relation to time and place, we need the ASC. The ASC provides that critical reference point from where we begin to understand how things represented in the chart relate to the native (person, place or event) of the horoscope. Thus for this reason the ASC has an significant and unique influence over how the reading of the horoscope "plays out."
Granted I may still quibble that calling the ASC the "chart ruler" is misleading - perhaps it's more precise to call it a "horoscope ruler" as it is specifically rules how the native relates to the chart and how we understand that relation, but whereas calling it a "chart ruler" gives the strange impression that it rules just houses and cusps (if that makes sense). The ASC does definitely add this relational layer to the horoscope, that in addition to the combined native essences of the houses, bodies and points, adds to the rich and organic complexity of the horoscope overall. For this reason, regardles to what label we give it, the ASC is rightfully acknowledged as something very siginficant, unique and essential to intrepretation.
As Elianah said, planets and houses still retain their native essences, regardless to their sign in a horoscope. But for the purpose of intrepretating the horoscope as an ineractive whole in relation to time and place, we need the ASC. The ASC provides that critical reference point from where we begin to understand how things represented in the chart relate to the native (person, place or event) of the horoscope. Thus for this reason the ASC has an significant and unique influence over how the reading of the horoscope "plays out."
Granted I may still quibble that calling the ASC the "chart ruler" is misleading - perhaps it's more precise to call it a "horoscope ruler" as it is specifically rules how the native relates to the chart and how we understand that relation, but whereas calling it a "chart ruler" gives the strange impression that it rules just houses and cusps (if that makes sense). The ASC does definitely add this relational layer to the horoscope, that in addition to the combined native essences of the houses, bodies and points, adds to the rich and organic complexity of the horoscope overall. For this reason, regardles to what label we give it, the ASC is rightfully acknowledged as something very siginficant, unique and essential to intrepretation.
Summery Joy
Well-known member
Thank you all. I think it's true. The ASC and the placement of its ruling planet form a major focal point. Tim has good method there also, finding patterns in the chart. What I was mainly asking about was the definition of the ruling planet, but it's a fact that each chart is a unqiue case. I guess I shouldn't get stuck in terms and technicalities
Elianah
Well-known member
Two things I forgot to mention...
1) If you are more of a traditional astrologer: If the sign on the cusp would be the fall or debility of the planet, the action of the planet would have weaker action than normal. Same would be true for the mutable houses. Cardinal houses would strengthen the action of the planet's placement in the house and fixed are neutral—no vibartory energy gain or loss.
Whereas I do believe in the extra vibratory boost that a planet gets from being in either its own sign or its own natural house, I have never bought into the whole dignity-exaltation-debility-fall-detriment issue of traditional astrology. I think that planetary energies vibrate in a way that it is possible for them to be dignified, exalted, debilitated or fallen all at the same time no matter what their placement is. Think of debilitated and fallen as part of the shadow side of the planet (or sign or house)—the place where there is no balance nor integration between instinct and all types of consciousness. A planet can show its shadow side even when in its sign of ruleship or appears the house it rules naturally.
An example:
Now, between you and me and the barn door—oooh, let's show my Iowa roots here—I know I have exhibited or have been accused of exhibiting all the dignity and debilitated qualities of the Sun listed above because I am a Leo. I have also seen all other signs that contain the Sun exhibit the all those same qualities. The Sun is the Sun, no matter where it is located. It will always have all the range of qualities listed above, plus others not listed because it is the Sun. The way those qualities are focused are through the sign and house. To use a different metaphor, the planet (and its aspects) is the actor, the sign the play and the house is the stage where the action of actor, through the play, is performed. And no matter how good an actor is at "losing him or herself" in a role, the role is still informed by who the actor is in real life. Any planet's energy might temporarily get "lost" in the mileu of the sign and house it is in, but it will fundamentally always return to its authentic way of operation if it can because that is where its point of entropy is.
2) As I stated above, but not in my original post, planets will pick up an additional vibrational boost when they are in the sign they rule. Perhaps it isn't a boost as much as the energy can flow in a more authentic way in the sign/house it naturally rules. Namely, it doesn't have to work as hard to be itself. No pretenses, just easier operation. Sort of like the difference of attending a state dinner and going out to eat with friends, when the planet is in its natural sign/house of rulership it is going out among friends. Yes, there are still rules that have to be followed even among friends but the guard is down. At the state dinner, the guard is up so high that the energy can get bent and refracted in ways that are not normal for it.
Hope this hasn't muddied up the waters any and don't be afraid of asking clarification questions. As a Leo, I reserve the right to roar and I promise I won't bite.
And, as always, keep what works for you and ditch the rest.
1) If you are more of a traditional astrologer: If the sign on the cusp would be the fall or debility of the planet, the action of the planet would have weaker action than normal. Same would be true for the mutable houses. Cardinal houses would strengthen the action of the planet's placement in the house and fixed are neutral—no vibartory energy gain or loss.
Whereas I do believe in the extra vibratory boost that a planet gets from being in either its own sign or its own natural house, I have never bought into the whole dignity-exaltation-debility-fall-detriment issue of traditional astrology. I think that planetary energies vibrate in a way that it is possible for them to be dignified, exalted, debilitated or fallen all at the same time no matter what their placement is. Think of debilitated and fallen as part of the shadow side of the planet (or sign or house)—the place where there is no balance nor integration between instinct and all types of consciousness. A planet can show its shadow side even when in its sign of ruleship or appears the house it rules naturally.
An example:
Now, between you and me and the barn door—oooh, let's show my Iowa roots here—I know I have exhibited or have been accused of exhibiting all the dignity and debilitated qualities of the Sun listed above because I am a Leo. I have also seen all other signs that contain the Sun exhibit the all those same qualities. The Sun is the Sun, no matter where it is located. It will always have all the range of qualities listed above, plus others not listed because it is the Sun. The way those qualities are focused are through the sign and house. To use a different metaphor, the planet (and its aspects) is the actor, the sign the play and the house is the stage where the action of actor, through the play, is performed. And no matter how good an actor is at "losing him or herself" in a role, the role is still informed by who the actor is in real life. Any planet's energy might temporarily get "lost" in the mileu of the sign and house it is in, but it will fundamentally always return to its authentic way of operation if it can because that is where its point of entropy is.
2) As I stated above, but not in my original post, planets will pick up an additional vibrational boost when they are in the sign they rule. Perhaps it isn't a boost as much as the energy can flow in a more authentic way in the sign/house it naturally rules. Namely, it doesn't have to work as hard to be itself. No pretenses, just easier operation. Sort of like the difference of attending a state dinner and going out to eat with friends, when the planet is in its natural sign/house of rulership it is going out among friends. Yes, there are still rules that have to be followed even among friends but the guard is down. At the state dinner, the guard is up so high that the energy can get bent and refracted in ways that are not normal for it.
Hope this hasn't muddied up the waters any and don't be afraid of asking clarification questions. As a Leo, I reserve the right to roar and I promise I won't bite.
And, as always, keep what works for you and ditch the rest.
Summery Joy
Well-known member
As a fellow Leo, I understand your right to roar and not bite.. in fact, I understand if you'd have to bite sometimes It's fun to be a Leo, ain't it?
Well, I read an article once that agreed with a lot of what you have said. It said that an Aries, for example, is always an Aries; passionate, goal-oriented, full action, etc. But under stress or in certain situations when Aries is uncomfortable, it will display negative traits of Libra, like indecisiveness for instance. That's why it's important to study polar opposites as two faces of one coin.
I have the Moon in Taurus and Scorpio is pretty week in my chart. It's on the cusp of no houses at all and has only one planet, Uranus, having a very generational effect on me and a little personal effect that is only there because of a couple of aspects. But, boy oh boy, you should see how Scoprio-like I get when I feel emotionally troubled in any way. I practically hiss out poison for crying out loud, so not me on a normal day!
I relate to Aquarius the very same way. And I've seen Aquarius friends turning into terrible, terrible Leos at times of stress.
Guess we got it all in us, huh? OK. Here's a new question for you, why is it difficult for me to relate to Capricorn traits? Except for how conventional I am in my view on religion (Cappy 9th house), I just don't feel it. How come it's soo weak? Having a strong affinity to Cancer with that explosive 4th house and the Moon Conjunct My ASC, I should understand the polar opposite, right? What do you think?
Demanding student, aren't I? But then again, who could resist a wonderful teacher like you? Mwah
It's fun to be a Leo, ain't it?Well, I read an article once that agreed with a lot of what you have said. It said that an Aries, for example, is always an Aries; passionate, goal-oriented, full action, etc. But under stress or in certain situations when Aries is uncomfortable, it will display negative traits of Libra, like indecisiveness for instance. That's why it's important to study polar opposites as two faces of one coin.
I have the Moon in Taurus and Scorpio is pretty week in my chart. It's on the cusp of no houses at all and has only one planet, Uranus, having a very generational effect on me and a little personal effect that is only there because of a couple of aspects. But, boy oh boy, you should see how Scoprio-like I get when I feel emotionally troubled in any way. I practically hiss out poison for crying out loud, so not me on a normal day!
I relate to Aquarius the very same way. And I've seen Aquarius friends turning into terrible, terrible Leos at times of stress.
Guess we got it all in us, huh? OK. Here's a new question for you, why is it difficult for me to relate to Capricorn traits? Except for how conventional I am in my view on religion (Cappy 9th house), I just don't feel it. How come it's soo weak? Having a strong affinity to Cancer with that explosive 4th house and the Moon Conjunct My ASC, I should understand the polar opposite, right? What do you think?
Demanding student, aren't I? But then again, who could resist a wonderful teacher like you? Mwah
Elianah
Well-known member
Sore,
Hey, it takes a very good student to make all your teachers shine and you have had very good teachers giving you information throughout the website. As for my teaching, well...you know, how good it is remains to be seen. :?:
First, to your questions about Capricorn. Frankly, I don't get Capricorns and I have lived with them all my life. :!: My father, brother and niece are Caps and my sister with her Cap Merc (Sun is 29° Sag 33'), it is like swimming in a bog. Perhaps it is because Capricorn is on the cusp of my 2nd house which deals with self-respect, self-worth, personal resources, etc. and this cast of characters have major issues with all these topics.
Capricorn on the cusp of the 9th may aid you in university studies because university is the traditional (another popular concept in Cap circles) public way of attaining higher knowledge. And it is higher knowledge that is subscribed to by the surrounding culture. In fact, any higher learning that is acceptable to society at large will be supported by Cap on the 9th. It will give you the tenacity and determination to make it.
However, the undertone sign in your 9th house is Aquarius, co-ruled by Saturn and Uranus. Aquarius is urging you to discover other forms of higher learning that, in some instances, would poke a finger in the eye of society. It is saying that there is higher learning that you need to journey in that is considered taboo by general society, astrology for instance. So there is inner turmoil taking place because Aquarius wants to lead you into the secretive higher knowledge of metaphysics and the Capricorn portion is dragging its feet saying "can't we just be happy with what society deems as higher learning and leave it at that?"
Anyway, in my very humble opinion, you are very correct regarding the polarity sign of the Sun sign. I also see it as the flip side of the same coin. Not only can a person exhibit the lesser qualities of their opposite sign, that same person can also exhibit the better qualities of it. And although the Earth is not used a planet in most charts, if it is placed into the chart, it would be directly opposite of the Sun.
What does this teach us? If we look at the Sun as being the authentic self of the individual, the Earth is the manifestation principal of the authentic self into this dimensional-space-time plane in which we find ourselves. In English, the words earth, dirt, ground, soil are all used interchangeably to speak of the matter on which everything depends. Yes, we need the other elements also, but it is the earth we plant ourselves into, take root in and grow from, whether literally as with plants or metaphorically like with family. Without Earth, we could not manifest our full being. So the sign that Earth is in, the polarity point of the Sun, tells us the way we are meant to physicallize into local living conditions the authentic self, described by the whole chart as directed by the Sun, which is the soul's vehicle into this plane.
Your Scorpion Uranus may not really start affecting you on a personal level until you have crossed the threshold, so to speak, of and completed your Saturn return a couple of years from now. The Saturn return is the initiator into the world of the collective conscious. Uranus, among other things, is the gatekeeper of the personal unconscious.
Now I don't know how big a deal the "midlife crisis" is in your culture, but it has approached mythic status here in the States. Midlife crisis is brought up by Uranus oposing itself, and almost literally slamming our personal unconscious into our faces and saying "WAKE UP! PAY ATTENTION!" The personal unconscious is where we have buried those things that are quintesentially us that we have been told by others or we have deduced from cultural messages surrounding us are not appropriate and forcing us to look at them and be a group of 1. This does not mean antisocial, criminal behavior but more things that the surrounding society sees as not meeting the norm.
For example, I was in Jewish seminary settings when I was going through my Uranus opposition. Before I left for seminary, I had sold all my metaphysical and astrology books because I knew they would be unacceptable in that setting. Being a Leo, I wanted to be accepted and loved in that setting, not punished, so I put all my metaphysical and astrology studies "in the darkest corner of the highest shelf of my closet" When Uranus moved into opposition with its natal placement, I went through a period of determining what was important and valid for me and my metaphysical and astrological studies came down off the shelf because they were as validly me as my Jewish studies. I couldn't deny part of myself that was as integral to my authentic self as my Jewish studies were at the time. So down off the shelf they came and I haven't looked back.
Uranus could not do its work in a more conscious manner, however, until I had gone through my first Saturn return and recognized me in society and the society in me. That allowed me to be able to question at the Uranus self-opposition what of society was right for me and where I would have to be a group of one. Now I did have a protracted Uranus self-opposition because my Sun and Uranus are in a weak conjuction. So when transiting Uranus came within the applying orbal sphere of my Sun on February 23, 1995, it started making its self-opposition. When it finally left the separating orbal sphere of my Uranus on November 26, 1999 (with all the retrograde action taking place included), I could start applying what I learned from that process. I started reconnecting to my crystals, my channeling, astrology, and I studied things like aromatherapy and Polarity Therapy. Did I let people within the seminary environment know that? Very few people.
Anyway, I share this so you can see that it is not weird that Uranus is not having a conscious personal effect on you ...yet. It isn't time for that to happen. Allow Saturn, through its return, to prepare you for Uranus. Use Chiron as bridge between Saturn and Uranus, the collective conscious and the personal unconscious to be a healer so you aren't torn apart when Uranus opposes itself.
As always, keep what fits and ditch the rest.
Hey, it takes a very good student to make all your teachers shine and you have had very good teachers giving you information throughout the website. As for my teaching, well...you know, how good it is remains to be seen. :?:
First, to your questions about Capricorn. Frankly, I don't get Capricorns and I have lived with them all my life. :!: My father, brother and niece are Caps and my sister with her Cap Merc (Sun is 29° Sag 33'), it is like swimming in a bog. Perhaps it is because Capricorn is on the cusp of my 2nd house which deals with self-respect, self-worth, personal resources, etc. and this cast of characters have major issues with all these topics.
Capricorn on the cusp of the 9th may aid you in university studies because university is the traditional (another popular concept in Cap circles) public way of attaining higher knowledge. And it is higher knowledge that is subscribed to by the surrounding culture. In fact, any higher learning that is acceptable to society at large will be supported by Cap on the 9th. It will give you the tenacity and determination to make it.
However, the undertone sign in your 9th house is Aquarius, co-ruled by Saturn and Uranus. Aquarius is urging you to discover other forms of higher learning that, in some instances, would poke a finger in the eye of society. It is saying that there is higher learning that you need to journey in that is considered taboo by general society, astrology for instance. So there is inner turmoil taking place because Aquarius wants to lead you into the secretive higher knowledge of metaphysics and the Capricorn portion is dragging its feet saying "can't we just be happy with what society deems as higher learning and leave it at that?"
Anyway, in my very humble opinion, you are very correct regarding the polarity sign of the Sun sign. I also see it as the flip side of the same coin. Not only can a person exhibit the lesser qualities of their opposite sign, that same person can also exhibit the better qualities of it. And although the Earth is not used a planet in most charts, if it is placed into the chart, it would be directly opposite of the Sun.
What does this teach us? If we look at the Sun as being the authentic self of the individual, the Earth is the manifestation principal of the authentic self into this dimensional-space-time plane in which we find ourselves. In English, the words earth, dirt, ground, soil are all used interchangeably to speak of the matter on which everything depends. Yes, we need the other elements also, but it is the earth we plant ourselves into, take root in and grow from, whether literally as with plants or metaphorically like with family. Without Earth, we could not manifest our full being. So the sign that Earth is in, the polarity point of the Sun, tells us the way we are meant to physicallize into local living conditions the authentic self, described by the whole chart as directed by the Sun, which is the soul's vehicle into this plane.
Your Scorpion Uranus may not really start affecting you on a personal level until you have crossed the threshold, so to speak, of and completed your Saturn return a couple of years from now. The Saturn return is the initiator into the world of the collective conscious. Uranus, among other things, is the gatekeeper of the personal unconscious.
Now I don't know how big a deal the "midlife crisis" is in your culture, but it has approached mythic status here in the States. Midlife crisis is brought up by Uranus oposing itself, and almost literally slamming our personal unconscious into our faces and saying "WAKE UP! PAY ATTENTION!" The personal unconscious is where we have buried those things that are quintesentially us that we have been told by others or we have deduced from cultural messages surrounding us are not appropriate and forcing us to look at them and be a group of 1. This does not mean antisocial, criminal behavior but more things that the surrounding society sees as not meeting the norm.
For example, I was in Jewish seminary settings when I was going through my Uranus opposition. Before I left for seminary, I had sold all my metaphysical and astrology books because I knew they would be unacceptable in that setting. Being a Leo, I wanted to be accepted and loved in that setting, not punished, so I put all my metaphysical and astrology studies "in the darkest corner of the highest shelf of my closet" When Uranus moved into opposition with its natal placement, I went through a period of determining what was important and valid for me and my metaphysical and astrological studies came down off the shelf because they were as validly me as my Jewish studies. I couldn't deny part of myself that was as integral to my authentic self as my Jewish studies were at the time. So down off the shelf they came and I haven't looked back.
Uranus could not do its work in a more conscious manner, however, until I had gone through my first Saturn return and recognized me in society and the society in me. That allowed me to be able to question at the Uranus self-opposition what of society was right for me and where I would have to be a group of one. Now I did have a protracted Uranus self-opposition because my Sun and Uranus are in a weak conjuction. So when transiting Uranus came within the applying orbal sphere of my Sun on February 23, 1995, it started making its self-opposition. When it finally left the separating orbal sphere of my Uranus on November 26, 1999 (with all the retrograde action taking place included), I could start applying what I learned from that process. I started reconnecting to my crystals, my channeling, astrology, and I studied things like aromatherapy and Polarity Therapy. Did I let people within the seminary environment know that? Very few people.
Anyway, I share this so you can see that it is not weird that Uranus is not having a conscious personal effect on you ...yet. It isn't time for that to happen. Allow Saturn, through its return, to prepare you for Uranus. Use Chiron as bridge between Saturn and Uranus, the collective conscious and the personal unconscious to be a healer so you aren't torn apart when Uranus opposes itself.
As always, keep what fits and ditch the rest.
Lapis
Well-known member
"As a Leo, I reserve the right to roar....."
Loved that!!! 
This has been a really great and insightful thread. It's interesting reading about how each person has settled into a particular system that works perfectly for them, myself included of course! Astrology is what it is and the grand archetypes are The Grand Archetypes etc. etc. but we still seem to discover what 'fits' us individually the best. To me, this is all in Divine Order
and as it should be.
Personally.......(here we go again!) I've always felt that the ASC or Rising Sign and its ruling Planet has a major influence throughout the whole incarnation. Like Elianah and Lunar Pisces said already it does indeed 'energetically color' the person/consciousness/psyche/Chart with that Sign and its ruling Planets energies/frequencies/vibratory rates.
Second to the Ascendent and its ruling planet, I feel the Sun Sign and its ruling Planet is the next hierarchical power so to speak. But again, this is only my personal 'belief system' about this issue and like wilsontc said there's numerous different beliefs about this one subject alone. Makes learning Astrology even more interesting huh? As with everything, learn as much as you can from numerous sources so you have a good healthy variety to draw from. Next stage of learning is to learn to discern what's "Truth" for you at this moment in time.
As a Capricorn, I reserve the right to, to, to........eat junk and transmut it into a life sustaining food source while jumping around on dangerous elevated places and randomly head-butt things for fun......
This has been a really great and insightful thread. It's interesting reading about how each person has settled into a particular system that works perfectly for them, myself included of course! Astrology is what it is and the grand archetypes are The Grand Archetypes etc. etc. but we still seem to discover what 'fits' us individually the best. To me, this is all in Divine Order
and as it should be.Personally.......(here we go again!) I've always felt that the ASC or Rising Sign and its ruling Planet has a major influence throughout the whole incarnation. Like Elianah and Lunar Pisces said already it does indeed 'energetically color' the person/consciousness/psyche/Chart with that Sign and its ruling Planets energies/frequencies/vibratory rates.
Second to the Ascendent and its ruling planet, I feel the Sun Sign and its ruling Planet is the next hierarchical power so to speak. But again, this is only my personal 'belief system' about this issue and like wilsontc said there's numerous different beliefs about this one subject alone. Makes learning Astrology even more interesting huh? As with everything, learn as much as you can from numerous sources so you have a good healthy variety to draw from. Next stage of learning is to learn to discern what's "Truth" for you at this moment in time.
As a Capricorn, I reserve the right to, to, to........eat junk and transmut it into a life sustaining food source while jumping around on dangerous elevated places and randomly head-butt things for fun......
Summery Joy
Well-known member
LOL, Lapis. That last line was funny And yeah, archetypes are what they are, but there is an infinite number of ways that they could be combined in one chart. This only makes astrology more awesome, don't ya think?
Elianah, I used to think that this forum tought me something new every day. Now, it teaches me lots of new things every post. WOW! I never knew that the Saturn return will affect the way I feel the enegry of Uranus. I'm supposing it'll do so with all the outer planets?
Midlife crisis in my culture.. hmm.. I don't know really. I see it and everyday and discuss it quite often, but I haven't seen any social- or psychological-oriented coverages by local authors or talk-show hosts. Maybe I never noticed. I don't really watch TV and I try my best to avoid newspapers, especially since 9/11 and the "War on Terrorism" (soooo pro Pisces south node in this area)
I'm still looking around my chart trying to understand my lack of affinity for Capricorn traits. It's interesting to know that you feel the same way. Could it be a Leo thing? Say, may I have your birth data? I would really like to take a look at your chart.
And yeah, archetypes are what they are, but there is an infinite number of ways that they could be combined in one chart. This only makes astrology more awesome, don't ya think?Elianah, I used to think that this forum tought me something new every day. Now, it teaches me lots of new things every post. WOW! I never knew that the Saturn return will affect the way I feel the enegry of Uranus. I'm supposing it'll do so with all the outer planets?
Midlife crisis in my culture.. hmm.. I don't know really. I see it and everyday and discuss it quite often, but I haven't seen any social- or psychological-oriented coverages by local authors or talk-show hosts. Maybe I never noticed. I don't really watch TV and I try my best to avoid newspapers, especially since 9/11 and the "War on Terrorism" (soooo pro Pisces south node in this area
)I'm still looking around my chart trying to understand my lack of affinity for Capricorn traits. It's interesting to know that you feel the same way. Could it be a Leo thing?
Say, may I have your birth data? I would really like to take a look at your chart.
Elianah
Well-known member
Birth data:
26 July 1958 Des Moines, IA USA 15:49 p.m. CST (GMT -6).
As for the Saturn return, it can do that if you realize that this is one of many opportunities Saturn offers during its return. Most of us who have already gone through our first Saturn return probably did not realize this when we went through it and we couldn't prepare ... or understand the process may be a better way to think about it ... as well for the Uranus self-oppostition.
I share it with you and others who have not had their Saturn return as something to consider from someone who has "been there, done that."
As always, take what fits and ditch the rest.
P.S.: GO LAPIS GO! Just keep your footing secure on the cliffs! We don't want to lose you! By the way, I have this great sauce designed for tin cans, if you are interested.
26 July 1958 Des Moines, IA USA 15:49 p.m. CST (GMT -6).
As for the Saturn return, it can do that if you realize that this is one of many opportunities Saturn offers during its return. Most of us who have already gone through our first Saturn return probably did not realize this when we went through it and we couldn't prepare ... or understand the process may be a better way to think about it ... as well for the Uranus self-oppostition.
I share it with you and others who have not had their Saturn return as something to consider from someone who has "been there, done that."
As always, take what fits and ditch the rest.
P.S.: GO LAPIS GO!
Just keep your footing secure on the cliffs! We don't want to lose you! By the way, I have this great sauce designed for tin cans, if you are interested. 
Kite
Well-known member
This IS an interesting thread and as I reflect, I realize that in my case with Aquarius on my ASC. I used to assume Uranus as the ruler (6H Leo). Now, I realize that my Saturn placement at the MC in Sag has been even more telling in representing the central theme of my life - quest for spirituality. The Uranus in 6H Leo has been about how to creatively enlighten/heal myself and others with my insights. Chiron in 12 close to the ASC in Aquarius, opposing Uranus, highlights this quest again.
I'm wondering if others here have looked at dual rulership. If Pisces, looking at both Neptune and Jupiter, If Scorpio, Pluto and Mars, Virgo, Mercury and Chiron?
I would agree with previous posts that awareness of the outer planets' effects might not be known until after the Saturn Return although I would qualify that by saying that some may be able to tune in to the outer planets earlier if they are advanced in conscious awareness or artifcially broke through with the aid of psychedelics.
I'm wondering if others here have looked at dual rulership. If Pisces, looking at both Neptune and Jupiter, If Scorpio, Pluto and Mars, Virgo, Mercury and Chiron?
I would agree with previous posts that awareness of the outer planets' effects might not be known until after the Saturn Return although I would qualify that by saying that some may be able to tune in to the outer planets earlier if they are advanced in conscious awareness or artifcially broke through with the aid of psychedelics.
Elianah
Well-known member
Hi Kite,
Hmm...never thought of Chiron as a ruler of Virgo. Will have to jossle that around in my pea-sized brain for awhile.
Also, don't forget Mars as the co-ruler of Scorpio. Mars might get really :evil: if you do.
I see your point about the few who are mature enough to understand the Trans-Saturnian planets before their first Saturn return. I would venture that most of humanity fits in the portion of the bell curve that don't begin to understand the outer planets until during or after their first Saturn return. And I am sure we all know some laggards who still haven't understood the outer planets even after their 2nd Saturn return. :shock: They are probably the ones here in the US who have the major, really visible midlife crises because they can't integrate and work with the Uranian energy.
As for those who contact the Trans-Saturnian planets through psychedelics, they need to get a clear handle on the imagery and illusions that the drug of choice may give them. Psychedelics are ruled by Neptune, co-ruled by Jupiter, which may create expansive delusions and illusions rather than clear images. Jupiter brings the personal conscious into the collective unconscious in its co-rulership of Pisces and Neptune doesn't have the breaking ability to help Jupiter create a healthy, sustainable expansion (one reason for having a positive relationship with Saturn). Neptune just goes with the flow until the expansion bubble breaks.
My guess would be with your Saturn sitting close to your Sag MC, you may have had periods in your life where you were having inner dialogues of how far to push the envelope with public spiritual/higher knowledge beliefs. Your Sag MC may have been pulling you towards the more unconventional and more personally fulfilling spriritual/higher knowledge and wisdom path and Saturn being torn between conventionallity (its Cappy rulership) and unconventionallity (its Aquarius rulership). Since your Aquarius ASC may need and want a more cosmic spiritual relationship that is yours alone, this may have sent the Saturn energy into a major split at times.
BTW, out of curiousity, is your Aquarius ASC fairly close to the cusp of Pisces or is your Sag MC fairly close to the cusp of Scorpio? I'm just trying to get the lay of the land without your birthchart at hand.
Since Chiron is opposing Uranus, the bridge between the collective conscious (Saturn) and the personal unconscious (Uranus) is opposed to one of planets its supposed to bridge between. This suggests to me a possible healing being necessary between how you work with your personal unconscious and mythology and their links to the collective conscious. By doing this work, you can mentor others in unique and creative ways to reach their own understanding between their collective conscious connections and their personal unconscious connections and mythology in ways that will assist those people to creatively self-actualize.
As always, take what fits and ditch the rest.
Hmm...never thought of Chiron as a ruler of Virgo. Will have to jossle that around in my pea-sized brain for awhile.
Also, don't forget Mars as the co-ruler of Scorpio. Mars might get really :evil: if you do.
I see your point about the few who are mature enough to understand the Trans-Saturnian planets before their first Saturn return. I would venture that most of humanity fits in the portion of the bell curve that don't begin to understand the outer planets until during or after their first Saturn return. And I am sure we all know some laggards who still haven't understood the outer planets even after their 2nd Saturn return. :shock: They are probably the ones here in the US who have the major, really visible midlife crises because they can't integrate and work with the Uranian energy.
As for those who contact the Trans-Saturnian planets through psychedelics, they need to get a clear handle on the imagery and illusions that the drug of choice may give them. Psychedelics are ruled by Neptune, co-ruled by Jupiter, which may create expansive delusions and illusions rather than clear images. Jupiter brings the personal conscious into the collective unconscious in its co-rulership of Pisces and Neptune doesn't have the breaking ability to help Jupiter create a healthy, sustainable expansion (one reason for having a positive relationship with Saturn). Neptune just goes with the flow until the expansion bubble breaks.
My guess would be with your Saturn sitting close to your Sag MC, you may have had periods in your life where you were having inner dialogues of how far to push the envelope with public spiritual/higher knowledge beliefs. Your Sag MC may have been pulling you towards the more unconventional and more personally fulfilling spriritual/higher knowledge and wisdom path and Saturn being torn between conventionallity (its Cappy rulership) and unconventionallity (its Aquarius rulership). Since your Aquarius ASC may need and want a more cosmic spiritual relationship that is yours alone, this may have sent the Saturn energy into a major split at times.
BTW, out of curiousity, is your Aquarius ASC fairly close to the cusp of Pisces or is your Sag MC fairly close to the cusp of Scorpio? I'm just trying to get the lay of the land without your birthchart at hand.
Since Chiron is opposing Uranus, the bridge between the collective conscious (Saturn) and the personal unconscious (Uranus) is opposed to one of planets its supposed to bridge between. This suggests to me a possible healing being necessary between how you work with your personal unconscious and mythology and their links to the collective conscious. By doing this work, you can mentor others in unique and creative ways to reach their own understanding between their collective conscious connections and their personal unconscious connections and mythology in ways that will assist those people to creatively self-actualize.
As always, take what fits and ditch the rest.
Kite
Well-known member
Hi Elianah, I knew I'd raise some eyebrows on the Chiron Virgo co-rulership but through it in anyway just to see the reaction - especially from anyone with Virgo rising. I did catch Mars on Scorpio though.
You can view my chart at http://astro-software.com/cgi-bin/a...y=1&state=6&adjust=8.00&long=118.32&lat=34.13
As far as the psychedelics go, I have trouble pidgeon holing them into a neptune/jupiter dynamic although for many people that may be so. I believe Uranus and Pluto can play a role in both the flash of insight and the transformative experiences that might be had within a shamanic context.
In terms of my own expeirence with Saturn and Uranus, I would have to say that I've spent quite a bit of time drilling into the estoteric aspects of the conventional Jewish religious thought through study of Kabbalah and metaphysics. I don't see this in a dualistic manner but more of a wholistic blending of the old with the new. I have struggled with this at times in wanting to throw out the baby with the bathwater but have managed to synthesize a good amount of the seeming contradictions.
You can view my chart at http://astro-software.com/cgi-bin/a...y=1&state=6&adjust=8.00&long=118.32&lat=34.13
As far as the psychedelics go, I have trouble pidgeon holing them into a neptune/jupiter dynamic although for many people that may be so. I believe Uranus and Pluto can play a role in both the flash of insight and the transformative experiences that might be had within a shamanic context.
In terms of my own expeirence with Saturn and Uranus, I would have to say that I've spent quite a bit of time drilling into the estoteric aspects of the conventional Jewish religious thought through study of Kabbalah and metaphysics. I don't see this in a dualistic manner but more of a wholistic blending of the old with the new. I have struggled with this at times in wanting to throw out the baby with the bathwater but have managed to synthesize a good amount of the seeming contradictions.
Elianah
Well-known member
Hi Kite,
I wasn't trying to pigeon-hole psychedelics users with Neptune/Jupiter issues. I think that could be a factor for some, especially of our age group.
What I am being sensitive to is that we have some teens that participate in our discussions. Although psychedelics is a way to "contact" the trans-Saturnian energies, one has to be mature enough to be able to understand the energy that is being contacted. There are teens that might be able to withstand and understand the enlightenment of the trans-Saturnian planets through psychedelics. On the whole, getting through adolescence is hard enough without thinking that all answers might be given by dropping acid and conversing with the outer planets.
I think most people come to know the trans-Saturnian planets at the time that is right for them maturity-wise. A few might be able to do it when they are teens, most will do it after their 1st Saturn return and a few will lag until after their 2nd Saturn return. Rushing the process makes no sense.
You say you have studied Kabbalah. If you have studied it, you know that the Kabbalistic masters like Luria say that a man should not study Kabbalah until after he passes 40. Astrologically that would be after the first Saturn return and most likely right when they are in the midst of their Uranian self-opposition. Men, at that time, had been involved by that age in a trade, married and were raising children. They were seen by the Kabbalists as settled enough, dare I say grounded enough, to enter Pardes, take of its learning, and return unscathed.
Does that mean I think people should not study Kabbalah (or any esoteric/metaphysical tradation) until they are 40? Not necessarily. What I think the concept beneath the injunction is saying is that each person, man or woman, must be emotionally, mentally and spiritually mature enough to be able take in and use the teachings appropriately. Each person would then be like Akiva and be able enter and exit Pardes without being harmed by it.
Each person has an innate knowing of when this time of personal maturity is and should be patient enough to wait for the contact of the trans-Saturnian energies without pushing the experience via psychedelics.
Enough of my soapbox. You may now stop :roll: and drumming your fingers. (Although with a Sag MC and Sag Sun, could you expect anything less from a Leo Sun, Sag ASC and Sag Moon/Saturn conjunction. )
Since people like picking out the synchronicities in charts, here are some interesting ones between ours:
Your Saturn is conjunct my ASC.
Your Sun is at the same exact degree as my Saturn Rx and is conjunct my Moon.
Your Uranus sits right between my Sun-Uranus conjunction and is conjunct with my Pallas.
Your Moon/Mars conjunction is trined my Sun.
Your Jupiter is conjunct my Midheaven.
Your Pluto is conjunct my Mercury/Pluto conjunction.
Our Neptunes are conjunct, which is not really a surprise (nor is the Pluto conjunction—its the age group thing).
Enough head games. Its time for me to go to bed. zzzzzz
I wasn't trying to pigeon-hole psychedelics users with Neptune/Jupiter issues. I think that could be a factor for some, especially of our age group.
What I am being sensitive to is that we have some teens that participate in our discussions. Although psychedelics is a way to "contact" the trans-Saturnian energies, one has to be mature enough to be able to understand the energy that is being contacted. There are teens that might be able to withstand and understand the enlightenment of the trans-Saturnian planets through psychedelics. On the whole, getting through adolescence is hard enough without thinking that all answers might be given by dropping acid and conversing with the outer planets.
I think most people come to know the trans-Saturnian planets at the time that is right for them maturity-wise. A few might be able to do it when they are teens, most will do it after their 1st Saturn return and a few will lag until after their 2nd Saturn return. Rushing the process makes no sense.
You say you have studied Kabbalah. If you have studied it, you know that the Kabbalistic masters like Luria say that a man should not study Kabbalah until after he passes 40. Astrologically that would be after the first Saturn return and most likely right when they are in the midst of their Uranian self-opposition. Men, at that time, had been involved by that age in a trade, married and were raising children. They were seen by the Kabbalists as settled enough, dare I say grounded enough, to enter Pardes, take of its learning, and return unscathed.
Does that mean I think people should not study Kabbalah (or any esoteric/metaphysical tradation) until they are 40? Not necessarily. What I think the concept beneath the injunction is saying is that each person, man or woman, must be emotionally, mentally and spiritually mature enough to be able take in and use the teachings appropriately. Each person would then be like Akiva and be able enter and exit Pardes without being harmed by it.
Each person has an innate knowing of when this time of personal maturity is and should be patient enough to wait for the contact of the trans-Saturnian energies without pushing the experience via psychedelics.
Enough of my soapbox. You may now stop :roll: and drumming your fingers. (Although with a Sag MC and Sag Sun, could you expect anything less from a Leo Sun, Sag ASC and Sag Moon/Saturn conjunction.
)Since people like picking out the synchronicities in charts, here are some interesting ones between ours:
Your Saturn is conjunct my ASC.
Your Sun is at the same exact degree as my Saturn Rx and is conjunct my Moon.
Your Uranus sits right between my Sun-Uranus conjunction and is conjunct with my Pallas.
Your Moon/Mars conjunction is trined my Sun.
Your Jupiter is conjunct my Midheaven.
Your Pluto is conjunct my Mercury/Pluto conjunction.
Our Neptunes are conjunct, which is not really a surprise (nor is the Pluto conjunction—its the age group thing).
Enough head games. Its time for me to go to bed. zzzzzz
Kite
Well-known member
Sorry Elianah to throw my wet blanket on your ASC
I agree that medicinal short cuts are not to be encouraged nor supported and that most people would not be able to handle the shattering of the saturnian scaffolding so to speak.
Given that Luria died before he was forty puts a bits of contradiction into the Kabballah restrictions although many believe the 40 represents the letter Mem (Gematria value of 40) and is symbolic for Water. Water being receptive, the message is that one must be in a receptive frame of mind to receive the wisdom inherent in this study. This is what I believe you are saying in terms of being able to "receive" the outer planet energies and intepret them in a meaningful context.
Interesting connection between our charts. You must have had quite a time with the Pluto transit. I guess this would have been in your 12th house? Hmmm..speaking of scaffolding coming time - has this been your experience...opening up to the collective oneness?
I agree that medicinal short cuts are not to be encouraged nor supported and that most people would not be able to handle the shattering of the saturnian scaffolding so to speak.
Given that Luria died before he was forty puts a bits of contradiction into the Kabballah restrictions although many believe the 40 represents the letter Mem (Gematria value of 40) and is symbolic for Water. Water being receptive, the message is that one must be in a receptive frame of mind to receive the wisdom inherent in this study. This is what I believe you are saying in terms of being able to "receive" the outer planet energies and intepret them in a meaningful context.
Interesting connection between our charts. You must have had quite a time with the Pluto transit. I guess this would have been in your 12th house? Hmmm..speaking of scaffolding coming time - has this been your experience...opening up to the collective oneness?
Elianah
Well-known member
Totally agree with your interpretation on the letter Mem, Kite!
I had a little bit of the Sag Pluto transit in my 12th but most of it has been in my 1st. Pluto made its final contact with my Saturn (and your Sun) within a 5° applying orb right before it went direct and now has cleared the 2° separating orb aspect. It has been quite a personal journey, to say the least, with what I have in Sag in the 1st. Pluto won't clear my 1st house for some time, but I will be glad when it moves into the Cap part of my 1st.
Transiting Pluto must have been doing quite a number on you, too, in a much more public way than for me. Your belief system may have been "outed" in a way that may be very transformative for you in the long run but may have caused some schisms for you in the short term. For example, your Gemini 4th house indicates that there may have been a case of "multiple personality disorder" about your beliefs. I feel the energy almost of sitting Shiva for you behind your back while saying that they totally supported you to your face. The duality of the twins ended up facing off against one another with you being the catylist. And the two halves of Gemini family life probably are still greatly displeased at this time. However, the good news is that Pluto, although still in Sag, will be shortly clearing out of your 10th house and family matters will settle down.
Got to go, the work a day world beckons.
I had a little bit of the Sag Pluto transit in my 12th but most of it has been in my 1st. Pluto made its final contact with my Saturn (and your Sun) within a 5° applying orb right before it went direct and now has cleared the 2° separating orb aspect. It has been quite a personal journey, to say the least, with what I have in Sag in the 1st. Pluto won't clear my 1st house for some time, but I will be glad when it moves into the Cap part of my 1st.
Transiting Pluto must have been doing quite a number on you, too, in a much more public way than for me. Your belief system may have been "outed" in a way that may be very transformative for you in the long run but may have caused some schisms for you in the short term. For example, your Gemini 4th house indicates that there may have been a case of "multiple personality disorder" about your beliefs. I feel the energy almost of sitting Shiva for you behind your back while saying that they totally supported you to your face. The duality of the twins ended up facing off against one another with you being the catylist. And the two halves of Gemini family life probably are still greatly displeased at this time. However, the good news is that Pluto, although still in Sag, will be shortly clearing out of your 10th house and family matters will settle down.
Got to go, the work a day world beckons.
Kite
Well-known member
Nice grasp of the energies Elianah. Actually though, it's been more of me sitting shiva for the two sides of my family throughout this 10th house transit. My father died at the beginning of the transit and my mother towards the end.
There were many confilcts that played out with the two remarried families involved and yes I've been estranged from them both. I say good riddence though.
The sun/pluto transit on the mundane level involved more of a duality in my workplace where I had two bosses to contend with. That situation is now over..at least with the personalities involved. The 11th house looks very good.
There were many confilcts that played out with the two remarried families involved and yes I've been estranged from them both. I say good riddence though.
The sun/pluto transit on the mundane level involved more of a duality in my workplace where I had two bosses to contend with. That situation is now over..at least with the personalities involved. The 11th house looks very good.
Summery Joy
Well-known member
Here's an interesting notion. I can guess a person's Mercury sign with say 90% accuracy 8)
When I first started doing astrology, I was focused on Sun signs (so novice, huh? :roll: ). I figured a good way to learn was to try to guess the Sun sign of the person after a few conversations. My guess was wrong about the Sun sign a lot of the time, but I noticed that what I thought was the Sun sign was almost always the Mercury sign. So I started playing with that. After a few conversations with a person I'd start to guess the sign they strike me as the most then check the placement Mercury. I am almost always right :!:
Now, I don't know if Mercury has this much effect on a person or I just find easy to feel the Mercury vibe since it is the ruling planet in my chart. Does the same thing happen to you?
When I first started doing astrology, I was focused on Sun signs (so novice, huh? :roll: ). I figured a good way to learn was to try to guess the Sun sign of the person after a few conversations. My guess was wrong about the Sun sign a lot of the time, but I noticed that what I thought was the Sun sign was almost always the Mercury sign. So I started playing with that. After a few conversations with a person I'd start to guess the sign they strike me as the most then check the placement Mercury. I am almost always right :!:
Now, I don't know if Mercury has this much effect on a person or I just find easy to feel the Mercury vibe since it is the ruling planet in my chart. Does the same thing happen to you?
Elianah
Well-known member
Sore,
But how do you make your decision when Merc is in Gemini or Virgo?
What is interesting for me with Merc Rx right now, it isn't phasing me as much as I expected it to. I'm wondering if having a prolonged progressed Merc Rx period in my life that I have learned to function well with both.
Oh, and as for focusing on Sun signs in the beginning...I think that is only natural. Everyone starts somewhere and most people begin with Sun signs because of reading horoscopes in newspapers and magazines. And one of the biggest pick up lines is "Well baby, what's your Sun sign?"
Kite,
I can see what you said about the workplace taking place. The reason that I brought in the discussion of the 10th house's polarity--the 4th--is because the family/clan is the little "public" we are first socialized through before we enter the greater public realm of the 10th. Societal views are first developed through the extended family and then moved out on to the larger stage.
To me, house polarities resonate in the same way as sign polarities. One needs to take into consideration both poles because they integrate in the middle and that is where we find our greatest learning. When Pluto was transiting your 10th, it was directly affecting life in that house and indirectly transforming your house of family/clan (death of parents with literal sitting shiva and metaphorically sitting shiva for the divided tribe in Gemini. Hmm...wonder if Joseph would have sat shiva for the half-tribes? :? :?
Speaking of which, have you ever done astrology via the 12 tribes? Okay kid, stay on topic...
At least Pluto moves into a different house for you. It seems to be the Energizer bunny in my 1st...it keeps going and going and going... :roll: At some point it will even go into opposition to Venus in the 7th. That should be really interesting... :roll: :roll:
But how do you make your decision when Merc is in Gemini or Virgo?
What is interesting for me with Merc Rx right now, it isn't phasing me as much as I expected it to. I'm wondering if having a prolonged progressed Merc Rx period in my life that I have learned to function well with both.
Oh, and as for focusing on Sun signs in the beginning...I think that is only natural. Everyone starts somewhere and most people begin with Sun signs because of reading horoscopes in newspapers and magazines. And one of the biggest pick up lines is "Well baby, what's your Sun sign?"
Kite,
I can see what you said about the workplace taking place. The reason that I brought in the discussion of the 10th house's polarity--the 4th--is because the family/clan is the little "public" we are first socialized through before we enter the greater public realm of the 10th. Societal views are first developed through the extended family and then moved out on to the larger stage.
To me, house polarities resonate in the same way as sign polarities. One needs to take into consideration both poles because they integrate in the middle and that is where we find our greatest learning. When Pluto was transiting your 10th, it was directly affecting life in that house and indirectly transforming your house of family/clan (death of parents with literal sitting shiva and metaphorically sitting shiva for the divided tribe in Gemini. Hmm...wonder if Joseph would have sat shiva for the half-tribes? :? :?
Speaking of which, have you ever done astrology via the 12 tribes?
Okay kid, stay on topic...At least Pluto moves into a different house for you. It seems to be the Energizer bunny in my 1st...it keeps going and going and going... :roll:
At some point it will even go into opposition to Venus in the 7th. That should be really interesting... :roll: :roll: