Where is the obesity in this chart?


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Saturn square Neptune, from the 8th house is almost a guarantee of sexual trauma somewhere in childhood, and from an adult

I do have to quibble this a little. Saturn/Neptune aspects stay within orb for quite a while. That means that there would have been classrooms all over the country and globally full of kids who have this aspect. Can we truly suggest that all of these classmates must have been sexually abused by their parents or guardians? If so, did all these kids end up with either eating disorders or addictions?

I have read that Saturn/Neptune may represent 'fashions' in methods of parenting that might be construed as 'abusive' later on - swaddling is an example I have seen, for example.

But otherwise I would wonder what more there is to the Saturn/Neptune square to 'make' it so potentially pernicious.

Having said that, I would still suggest that all it may take might have been a grope in a public place, or teasing from schoolmates or within family that went too far: I have an aunt who became anorexic because her mother teased her contantly at puberty for her great appetite (and some puppy fat maybe). And a Moon square Venus may have been sensitive to any teasing about her body.

I did actually watch a documentary about extreme obesity types a while back. The people looked absolutely gross - literally. In fact, they could not do anything for themselves and were actually bedridden mainly. They were helpless in many ways - just like babies. It begged the question of that was not what they wanted to be in some ways - helpless in a giant chubby body and dependent still on others to assist them even in toiletting.

A lot of these individuals were very manipulative - tricking friends and carers into smuggling them food, when it was not allowed, that kind of thing.

Alas, no charts were given for these people.
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I have Saturn (8th) Square Neptune and Mercury (11th). Sex was over exposed to me through exposure to pornograghy at age 7 by my 9 year old brother and his friends getting into the parents' tapes. Being the only girl around they all looked at me. From then I was always on guard around men and boys. So maybe she was just exposed to sex and not a participant.
I was going to argue with Lin's point, at least from the view point of that these were all boys no older than 11. But then I remembered the neighbor's 30 year old son in law who showed me his you know what at I think 11, and then my friend's stepdad. Sorry, put it together as I was typing.
Darn Lin, I have to give you that one
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Upon reading Steven Arroyo states that Mars-Neptune people can be quite charismatic, as the OP stated Julia was.
I have also been reading that those with Mars-Neptune (the hard aspects) can indicate issues with anger inside, to the point that they may abuse themselves, as Neptune usually isnt the type to get into angry battles with others.
Mars-Saturn aspects can also lead to one having issues with releasing anger. It can indicate sexual aggression as well.
I also would say that she may have anger inside that has a hard time escaping, so she turns it inwards on herself.

Like anything these aspects are just aspects unless the person in question will open up and let us know if we are on the right page. Therefore, I wouldnt necessarily go into that she was sexually abused, although, there may be some truth to it- as Lin said.

Personally, I think Yoi was very creative here. We all looked at the negative aspects that can lead to obesity. Yoi looked at: what are the other things that can bring Julia to food, besides negatives?
She likes to eat, coupled with the other aspects sets her up for this unfortunate situation.

Courtney Love

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There's so many amazing comments going on here! 1st thing, Julia isn't married, she and my cousin have been in an on again-off again relationship for about 11 years though...

I read them all and I really feel like Nexus7 really "gets" Julia, especially as I see her. She loves food & sex, she has sex toys, she tells stories and chats up people about anything, with no shame. I chalked it up to being a capricorn, and their general earthiness. And she's kinda dim, heh. I don't know anything about any sexual abuse, and like I said, I feel like the way she will manipulate people into feeling sorry for her, she would have tried to use it, but perhaps I'm being obvious. Maybe it's the one thing she just cannot say. I just don't think it happened to her, because I remember explaining that I don't think any children should sleep in a bed with a grown man regardless of their relationship and she said that the only person she would trust like that would be her grandfather, because she used to fall asleep in his room while watching TV, and he'd let her sleep there. Then there was an issue where her cousin was convicted of molesting children, and they found child pornography, and worst of all, he'd actually photographed Julia's child Kiki (my cousin) but she didn't seem concerned like you would expect someone who'd been a victim of that kind of abuse. He might as well have had asian **** or you know.. animal ****.. it was something gosspiy to her, but it never felt like she saw herself in any of that child molestation.. if I'm making sense.

Julia likes to eat, she loves to eat. I just called her to ask Lulu's question of "what does she like about herself" and she was at a drive-thru ordering a cheeseburger, her excuse was "I haven't ate nothing since 5!" and she half ignored my question, first saying she liked her hair, then she ordered, and said I explained that people here are interested/concerned and she said "about my health?" and I said yes, and some people think there may have been some sexual abuse or just that you overeat because you're lazy (badly phrased, I know) and I asked her again what she liked about herself and she seemed sad and said "Nothing really..."

The feeling I get from Julia is that, just like some people can eat whatever they want & stay thin, Julia is that equal & opposite person who eats what she wants and just gains weight. Then when you see she has nothing but trines and easy aspects, you have someone who wants the pleasure (of eating) and none of the pain (of working out and burning it off) and of course she gained so much weight so fast, it's probably always felt overwhelming. We're talking about someone who weighed about 350 at age 13. Where do you go from there?

She does have anger issues, she does get mad absolutely, and she does turn it inwards, when she's not faking tears to make you be less angry with her. She's been a terrible mother. Leaving her child in his crib for hours on end, we're literally surprised he's survived and in such good condition, but she has her 10 year old as maid/nanny so that helps...

Julia's whole life is about trying to make things easy on herself, so that she doesn't have to get up and move. We're talking about someone who's had her daughter going to the mailbox (at end of the driveway) since she was about 3-4 years old, so that Julia wouldn't have to do it. She's LAZY LAZY LAZY and there's no thought of the consequence... like if someone decided to snatch her 4 year old as they drove by her house... Luckily, kiki's made it to 10!

Julia's lazy, geedy, self-centered and weak. Probably because it's easy to be so. It's just a question of how to fix it.

I love Yoi's suggestion of making lists and plans.. she did seem to do well with Weight Watchers point system til she got pregnant a couple of years back.. maybe she can go back to that... meal delivery is out of the question as she's on government money/housing/medicaid....

I'm actually going back to NC Monday because of a slight emergency involving a car.. I'll talk more to her then...

Thanks guys, this has been really fascinating... I love the idea of tapping into her saturn the most... and Nexus has been spot on in her assessment of The Medical Miracle.

Courtney Love

Well-known member
Dear Courtney,
I want to straighten this out really quickly so that you can get to the truth.

The Jupiter-Mars trine to her Sun would be a lot more helpful were the Sun not sitting on the 12th house cusp, making her feel as though she is a victim with no way out.
She may or may not have a way out...but her perception of her life is what she responds to....not necessarily the actual reality of it. And with Neptune conj. Merc., her perception is always going to be very ambiguous and confusing.

Her Uranus on her MC does not allow her to beg for help. Instead, just the opposite - the "world" perceives, like you do, that somehow she's "OK" with the load she's carrying around with her, physically, mentally and spiritually.

I realized I read the first half of your post, and then started responding to everyone, and now that i finished this bit, i'm going to have a serious talk with Julia when I get back there. I know that Julia isn't OK with her appearance, I've walked with her many times only to have her start crying about how her life has turned out, and how she wants to improve herself for her children as well as for her own comfort, but it's like aquarius7000 says, she can plan to exercise more and eat less, but by the following day she's given up on that plan... I know she fakes it, I know she's trying to pretend to be happier than she is... I know...


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Dear Courtney,
I want to straighten this out really quickly so that you can get to the truth.

Just because "Yoi" doesn't recognize the negatives, the very BIG negatives in Julia's chart doesn't mean they aren't there.

I did not say there were no negatives in Julia's chart. What I said was that what negatives were there simply added to the problems caused by all the easy aspects. Venus square Moon leads to emotional excess. Saturn is also in no position to exert its disciplinary energy. Moreover I don't see any prominent negatives which support the Julia eats so much because she was horribly sexually abused thesis.

In my case I have Mars conj. Jupiter trine Venus in earth signs. I *love* eating. I enjoy the taste of food, the texture of food. I love food. It is also an emotional comfort to me but in the end I just really love food. Moreover I find it difficult to know when "enough is enough". I can easily plough through a rich cake when most other people eat a few (or even one) slice and their body tells them it is enough. Jupiter trine Venus loves creature comforts, esp. when in earth signs and the addition of Mars just adds fuel to the fire. Fortunately (?) I have a Moon-Saturn-Neptune T-square while causing me enormous emotional grief also serves to add an element of emotional discipline that helps prevent me from getting mordidly obese. Mercury sextile Saturn probably helps as well.

However, in Julia's case her Saturn is square Mercury which conj. Neptune. Saturn square Neptune dissolves responsibility. At the same time as you desire responsibility (Saturn) you fear it (Neptune). Mercury conj. Neptune leads to a mind which is highly imaginative but at the same time hard to focus. The square to Saturn means however she desires to have a focused mind, it simply does not come easy to her. Mercury is in Sag. leading to even more scatter-brainedness.

The reason why it is still useful is because of the connection between Saturn and Mercury she still has the *desire* to have a focused mind and hence appealing to that aspect of her may be useful in helping her lose weight. I have Mercury sextile Saturn which makes focusing easy for me and I enjoy routines and lists. Moreover, like me her Saturn is like mine, in Virgo which enjoys routines, details and lists.

I also think your insistence that Saturn square Neptune means sexual abuse is very simplistic. I have Saturn square Neptune, in a prominent T-square (with Saturn in the 5th house) with a luminary (Moon) in the same signs as Julia and if I've been sexually abused in the past, well that's news to me...Also, a few million people were probably born with that same aspect at the same time.

Courtney Love

Well-known member
I talked to Julia on the phone, then she messaged me online. She says she doesn't remember anything about her childhood because she blocked it all out. She says the only thing she can remember is she stayed with her grandfather, (whom she calls grandpa, and thus, everyone calls him grandpa, which is interesting.. she doesn't say "my grandfather" or "My grandpa" she says "grandpa wants to talk to you.." and so forth.. she's big into sharing...)

she said she just doesn't like to think about "them crazy days in my childhood." Says she doesn't remember the funerals or anything. So I don't know... Lin is starting to worry me.. Of course millions of people can have an aspect, but Julia does seem to be a red flag that she was affected, because she says she "blocked out" things, and that she doesn't like to think about them. Well it can't be both. if she doesn't like to think about something, it's not blocked out. If it is blocked out, she wouldn't know it's there to think of...

I don't know.. I want to be honest and say I don't want to know, but at the same time, if this is her big issue and no one deals with it, she won't get any better.

here's a pic. Julia thinks she's adorable and when in better moods will describe herself as sexy, and attractive. She's fun.


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Then there was an issue where her cousin was convicted of molesting children, and they found child pornography, and worst of all, he'd actually photographed Julia's child Kiki (my cousin) but she didn't seem concerned like you would expect someone who'd been a victim of that kind of abuse. He might as well have had asian **** or you know.. animal ****.. it was something gosspiy to her, but it never felt like she saw herself in any of that child molestation.. if I'm making sense.

That sounds like somebody with a lack of understanding of boundaries, somehow. That certainly may go along with Saturn/Neptune, perhaps there were inappropriate boundaries there, somehow. Julia sounds very childlike in many ways - like a greedy kid who tries to scoff too much cake because she knows she can get away with it. She was let down in that way at least, by being aloowed to eat as much as she liked, with no Saturnian 'that's enough now Julia' to give her the sense of limits she needed.

I don't know. Julia's story is somehow parallelling what is happening with an old friend of mine in the UK. There are even some astrological similarites, same Sun sign, Venus angular, but on the Descendent, Ceres rising in Leo, Moon tighly square a Mercury/Jupiter conjunction, conjunct Pluto - she's an alcoholic. Pluto transit square Pluto - now she tell me she has cirrhosis of the liver amongst other things and she may not live to see 40.

And I feel that she is playing with me a little too, talking about wills and distributing effects. But last year when I was staying, I was summoned to a surgery, there had been medical checks all round for cancer. So: I rushed over, thinking the worst, but on arriving, she was nonchalent.

She reminds me of other people I have known who turned out to be bi-polar: every day 'has' to be Christmas. Her mother was certainly emotionally abusive and cut her out of her life a few years back for apparently no real reason. I don't know whether my friend is dying or not even now, whether this is a prolonged breakdown I have been seeing, or both. I dare say I shall find out, as her Pluto squares her Saturn and soon her Moon, which is on my MC, will be hit by transiting Saturn.

I wish you luck with your friend, Courtney, but it does sound more and more as though her emotional problems may make it very difficult to get through to her - and maybe, she hasn't quite reached the bottom point yet, before she can turn her life around. Ultimately, you cannot save her, I don't think - she is an adult, no matter how child-like she may be. Be there for her, but remember that if you get too invested in 'saving' her, you may get caught up in a bit of a circus.
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Courtney Love

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She does have boundary issues! She used to let 16-17 year old Candice (the step-sister of the father of her kids, thus "Aunt Candice" to the kids) sleep with boys in her child's bed (When I questioned her about it, she wouldn't admit it was wrong, and said she used to do the same thing at other people's house when she was that age. Yes, at like 400 pounds she got around even then!). She actually used to also let her cousin use Kiki's room for the same purpose (Kiki slept with Julia until she was at least 7 years old. Kiki seemed to think even then that something would happen to her, and wanted to be right there. Julia says that Kiki used to wake her up in the night and ask if she was ok, but I think that was because Julia has sleep apnea and was probably gasping/choking in the night since she won't wear that CPAP mask).. mom found out and went off, and now Julia blows off that as "oh I was dumb but that's in the past" but there's all kinds of really really bad decision making on her part that we chalked up to her 1. refusing to say no to people so they wouldn't stop loving her and 2. being trashy and insane.

Man.. adding all this up on paper makes Julia out to be a nightmare.. which she kind of is.. I don't know.

I am flying back to NC tonight, and then we're driving a van across the country (hope we dont die!) so I'll talk to Julia, and then come home... Thanks Nexus.


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Responding to Nexus....you said, "I do have to quibble this a little. Saturn/Neptune aspects stay within orb for quite a while. That means that there would have been classrooms all over the country and globally full of kids who have this aspect. Can we truly suggest that all of these classmates must have been sexually abused by their parents or guardians? If so, did all these kids end up with either eating disorders or addictions?"

Oh dear, this is why I tape my readings.
The 8TH HOUSE is the key here. But it's not JUST the Saturn as I said. All the energy surrounding the 8th, with it's squares...and just to confuse you, the grand trine in earth makes it even more complicated and confusing for the native.
But back to Saturn squ. Neptune.

Lets say the chart is one that it's a different time of day. Saturn let's say is in the 11th house and that would put the Sagi planets probably in the 2nd. Different Saturn Neptune issues... but still a Saturn Neptune issue. Structure and control vs. deception and fantasy or idealism, depending upon other aspects to each.

Or if Saturn were in the 6th, and Neptune in the 9th....the issues would reflect the houses the planets were in and also the positions and houses of the other planets.

BUT we are talking about this specific chart with it's very powerful negatives... and by the way, only 30 minutes away from an inconjunct between Venus and Jupiter.

The Venus on the asc. to me represents major issues early in life....and the mother a key.

I think I am going to do some additional study on this chart and see if I can pinpoint an age range where the trauma occured.


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So there are two lines of thought that seem to have emerged: the one, that Julia is a glutton and therefore a sinner, or someone who has failed to activate their saving superego. I was not incidentally trying to take any moral high ground here, though something about the manipulative culpability I could see in the individuals who were the subject of that TV programme nudged that sentiment a little - this woman probably is damaged emotionally in some way, though.

Then there is the other, that she is some kind of a Cassandra with a deep dark secret never yet told. And OK, that Mars/Jupiter is in the 8th, Saturn does rule it - though Saturn is still not Pluto to my mind. But whatever else that Mercury/Neptune square Saturn might reveal or not, there does seem to be a lot of the Cassandra about Julia and boundary-crossing involving deception is not something we can rule out.

My resistence to the idea of active molesting is that I have heard tales of individuals undergoing therapy coming up with false memories of abuse - or with over-zealous social workers creating unnecessary trauma in their search for it.

My friend in England is one of the most generous souls you could wish for. Sheis also one of the most inconsistent people I know - perhaps she 'needed' to be at one time. Her Moon square Mercury/Jupiter. Anyway, Julia's Mercury/Neptune square Saturn may well also present many distortions of what is actually going on, if something has taught her that facts and perceptions presented to her might be unreliable.

You sounded exasperated with her, Courtney, and I think I understand. No matter what the roots of this, she does sound manipulative, not matter how this came about.

The scenario I imagine is more to do with neglect along with spoiling to compensate for the neglect (you say she neglected her own child, is that repeating a pattern?). And if there was sexual abuse, then I would imagine that it happened casually, from the diffuse boundaries around her.

But I could be wrong, so I would be most interested to follow what actual truths may emerge in the end from this thread.
Chiron in Taurus seems to be the likely culprit in this chart. Let me give you a quote from Astrology.com:

This Chironic placement makes a person who -- because of a wound of neglect (perhaps your parents were stingy with affection or even completely closed off from you) or actual physical hunger -- bears a mental or physical pain that weakens the spirit and body. At the heart of Taurus is a yearning for security and the pleasure of sensory stimulation: food, physical affection, bodily nourishment. Taurus loves to indulge, but with Chiron in Taurus, you're never quite full; as your stomach can feel empty, so too can your heart.

Since Chiron in Taurus is conjunct the Moon here, its needs blends with the needs of the Moon and become security needs for Julia. It is a matter of comfort and security for her to eat and indulge.

The Moon-Chiron conjunction is also separated from the other planets and becomes a singleton in the chart - and singletons, as we know, draw the energy of the other planets to themselves reminding the rest of the chart of their own needs.

I would also say that the South Node in Pisces - True Node in Virgo reflects Julia's problem a lot. With the True Node in Virgo, Julia is actually learning now, in this lifetime, how to take care of her body, how to deal with her own diet and how to recognize her own limits. These are things covered by Virgo and they are being learned NOW.

Also, Julia's 6th house of health, diet and nutrition is ruled by the Moon-Chiron conjunction. The connection is clear and beyond any doubt.

Best regards,



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I suggest she daydream her way back into childhood and give herself the childhood she would like. You can do that while you are doing about anything, put that Mercury conj Neptune to good use. She can do it while she eats, I do. I think it helps you define what you want in life (Chiron in Taurus need) and it feels like I really lived it in a way. You can use the confusion of Merc/Neptune to trick yourself into living the childhood you always wanted. Helps you talk and relate to your inner child. Hey, if you're going to live with the confusion anyway, mine as well put it toi good use, any Capricorn/Aquarius should get that!!!!!:wink:
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Lulu, you said:
"I suggest she daydream her way back into childhood and give herself the childhood she would like. "

You don't "get" childhood programming, do you. If she goes back to her childhood in her own mind (which you assume is possible for one who is so unconscious), she will relive her negative childhood.
First she would have to deprogram from all the negative childhood events. Possibly...and only possibly, a doctor who is also a really good hypnotist could get her on the road to this deprogramming...but first SHE would have to 1) come to the conclusion that she really needs major help
2) ASK for help and keep asking till she gets the appropriate help
3) be willing to work with a hypnotist
4) validate that the events in her childhood have made her life totally out of control

These are big ifs... and as I said in a previous post, the Uranus on her MC makes it almost impossible for her to ask for help of this magnitude...and it is a great magnitude...because the bigger the problem, the more help one needs, and for long periods. It takes committment...real committment.

I don't see anything changing till she hits bottom. And if she's still alive after hitting bottom, and maybe having her child taken from her by social services, maybe then she'll wake up and live.

Courtney Love

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Lin I talked to Julia briefly, and she actually brought up hypnotism herself, saying that it was suggested to her, and asked what I thought. I basically told her what you said, that she needs to work on these issues, not just "find out" what happened and use that as an excuse to continue to die.... Other than that i got no real details from her, she swears she can't remember anything.. she says her mother died in the "4th or 5th grade" which floors me, who can't remember that kind of thing? I remember my 4th grade, I moved to New York for a few months... I remember my grandmother dying in the 7th grade... her being fuzzy on really important details (and there's no one else to ask) is tough...

So she calls me everyday, crying into the phone saying her stomach hurts, that she's in so much pain she can't deal with it (no, she's not overeating, she thinks its these untreated hernias that she has) but we're all in Seattle now, and there's no one who can/will help her... I mean, we even have her kids with us!

things are tough...

Courtney Love

Well-known member
So... to keep anyone interested in the drama of the life that is Julia Mayes, the Medical Miracle, after several days of intense pain (she described them like labor pains) and several tests, she is currently (at this moment) being operated on for what they're GUESSING is her appendix, or rather a problem with it. Given her weight, this is going to be difficult for her to heal because she has a HUGE stomach that hangs down past her knees... (as you can see in the picture)... so.... the scar could be repeatedly pulled back open...

yeah. I got nothing to say. I'm just glad we have her two children here in Seattle so that we can take care of them.


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How about a grand-cross among Taurus Moon conj Asc, Leo Venus, Aqua Jupiter and Scorp Pluto! My sister has this and she is quite fat. she barely eats a thing in front of others. she became obese while working in fast-food part time during school. She's been at her peak for the last 2 years. And Saturn has passed her over her virgo sun, yet she's only become worse?!?

I feel so bad for her :( how can she get out of this weight problem? she wont talk to anyone about it. here's her chart: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1268/bidnatalw.gif


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i have a tendency to overeat too (maybe its my moon trine venus) and i also am a virgo sun, i am not nor have i been even near obese and i have been normal weight for my adult and teen years until NOW. ever since saturn passed over my virgo sun i gained so much weight!! so she isnt the only one that has had difficulty with weight during saturn. i always hear saturn returns are the best for losing weight which just boggles my mind. maybe the stress of saturn causes some to buckle down and get their weight in order and causes others like she and i to just stress out and eat to calm our nerves!!!!

How about a grand-cross among Taurus Moon conj Asc, Leo Venus, Aqua Jupiter and Scorp Pluto! My sister has this and she is quite fat. she barely eats a thing in front of others. she became obese while working in fast-food part time during school. She's been at her peak for the last 2 years. And Saturn has passed her over her virgo sun, yet she's only become worse?!?

I feel so bad for her :( how can she get out of this weight problem? she wont talk to anyone about it. here's her chart: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1268/bidnatalw.gif


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julia and i have pretty identical charts. My birthday was a few days after hers, and our AC's are pretty close.
The two big differences are, our moon and merc. I have cancer moon in the 6th, forming a yod with venus and mars. My merc is at 0 capricorn, so its a bit more separated from neptune than hers.

This thread made me cry; i feel so bad for her. Between her aqua AC, and venus there, she will of course be charming and cheerful about things, but inside she is obviously just devastated about whats happening to her. :(

The venus chiron square is a problem with saying no and discipline with me too. I also have had problems with food in my life, not to this degree though. I have fluctuated ALOT, but have never gone more than 50 pounds over my ideal weight (120 )
I have lost weight during satrun transits, when saturn transited my 6th, i got serious about food, learnign to cook properly etc. I lost ALOT of weight fast. Part of it was an unhealthy weight loss. (mental issues caused alot of it)

Saturn is AC coruler, and with her virgo saturn return going on, she WILL see change in this area. Hopefully it will be a constriction and discipline, like saturn likes to do. I have the saturn mercury square. It CAN be harnessed; even up against seemingly impossible odds. I have worried of death myself, my return is exact oct 4 or so, and my saturn also being in 8th, i worry.... This saturn uranus opposition has created an intense nervous problem for me...i just actually came out of a nervous breakdown of sorts last week... Saturn square merc coming as well.. Its not over yet... But one thing i will tell you is, that if she is anything like me as far as her other aspects, her grand trine, and aqua'ness' will be enough to lift her spirits; keep her afloat, and give her hope. Tell her about me, and that i am coming through some insane things too. I never give up though. I swear, its that combo of mars/jupiter, and in trine to sun that will do it.

Pluto will not hit her sun quite yet. It will go rx a degree shy of her sun next may. She is feeling saturn right now. Her sun is ruler of her 7th...so pluto touchin on that will transform her in that area. Maybe bring someone into her life, or take one away. Who knows.

Julia has ALOT of virgo goin on here, just like i do, she HAS the tools. :) She can and will change, if she makes it alive through this. There have been some very powerful eclipses gone on recently, and one, like it it was for me, was in her 6th house.

I have a question, would she ever consider relocation? Because if she would, it could help in getting that venus somewhere else...and making other things angular that might help her. If that is a possibility, then we could create a new thread discussing where would help the most, etc. I also think gastric bypass is a good idea; i have seen it work for a few people i knew that were too overweight.
But anyways..sorry for rambling, i just got all emotional reading this thread, and i really feel for my astrotwin... :sad:
Feel free to pm me, or ask me anything
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Courtney Love

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Hey Gesso,

I relocated for my own health (Jupiter in cancer quincunx the moon in Aqu in the second... yep), moved 2300 miles to Seattle and now my mother wants to move here as well and "bring" Julia and the children... it's like you say, if she survives what's going on now, changes will be made.

Right now, Julia is recovering from the pointless appendectomy, nothing was wrong with her appendix, docs guessed wrong and now the healing process is incredibly hard because of how large her stomach is. The Dr's are now telling her that she has ovarian cysts, but Julia is saying she won't let them perform any more surgery on her, but she can barely walk because of the pain.

Julia's relocation options are limited, she has no money so she'd basically have to go where me and my mother can pay for.. which probably means here in Seattle.. (oh god... no) but I don't know...

I am exasperated with Julia. She's not someone you can trust to always do the right thing, she's the greedy 5 year old that you can't reason with. I've had her kids with me and my mother and brother here in Seattle since the end of July, and of course Julia misses them. The problem is that she can't take care of either child, certainly not the rambunctious 2 year old, but she wants them home with her. She can't pick her son up to change his pull-ups, and yet she wants them home, saying that 10 year old Kiki can "look after herself."

I don't know what to do, as I was telling Lin, finances for me are tight, if I fly the kids home, and 3 days later Julia lands in the hospital, there'll be no one to take care of them properly, and I can't afford to fly home on a moment's notice when they shouldn't be going back to Julia anyway. As I said to Lin, I just wish I had some idea of how bad it's going to get for Julia, I wish I knew whether it'd be ok to send Kiki to Julia's house or not.

How's Seattle looking for Julia? *sigh*