What would be the result?

unteruber

Well-known member
Someone I am thinking of contacting. She did not respond to my last message. I am interested in seeing if there is a possibility of relationship with her [i.e. I am taking her signifactor as L7], or at least exhaust the possibility and end any further case for illusions.

L1& L7 mutual reception by face.
L1 & L7 applying trine.
L7 & Moon (my co-sig) separating sextile.
Moon in 3rd house - my eagerness to contact her?
L4 is venus, in H8 [not sure how to interpret this]

I'll post more of my own reading tonight.

26.2.2013, 2.39pm Birmingham UK

thanks.
 

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IleneK

Premium Member
I suppose my main concern is that the Moon's next aspect, showing how the matter will unfold, is an opposition to Mercury Mars conjunction.

That may not bode well for communication between you.
 

unteruber

Well-known member
If we want to figure out end of the matter, 4th house should be consulted. We have NN sitting in the 4th house [which in some horary traditions is considered as lucky strike], we have L7 in the 4th house [not sure what it means]. If we take L4 which is venus in this case, that in itself is a benefic, and venus is exalted in pisces.

What worries me more is that the L7 (saturn) is retrograde, meaning that she might change her mind [from not responding in the past to responding now, or from responding now to not responding in the future].

Dr Farr in one of his comments mentions -

"Yes, but instead substitute "3rd triplicity (day or night) Lord of the 4th"
for the simple term "4th house", and you will be exactly correct; its the condition of the 3rd triplicity planetary lord of the relevant 4th "house" (place or sign would be more historically exact) that testifies about the "end of the matter", NOT the sign ruler (significator) of the 4th house, that is delineated in this more ancient method (over the past few hundred years horary practitioners have forgotten about this earlier method and simply take the planetary lord of the 4th house from the quesited, as indicating the "end of the matter"; I don't think that works as well as the original, more ancient method)"

I have yet to decipher what it means.

Not sure why will we consider moon opposed to mars-mercury conj in how the matters will unfold?


I suppose my main concern is that the Moon's next aspect, showing how the matter will unfold, is an opposition to Mercury Mars conjunction.

That may not bode well for communication between you.
 

IleneK

Premium Member
Someone I am thinking of contacting. She did not respond to my last message. I am interested in seeing if there is a possibility of relationship with her [i.e. I am taking her signifactor as L7], or at least exhaust the possibility and end any further case for illusions.

I am sorry for my misunderstanding. I took your question to be:
I am thinking of contacting her. Is there a possibility of relationship with her?

Not sure why will we consider moon opposed to mars-mercury conj in how the matters will unfold?
The aspects of the Moon in the horary chart describe the path of the matter. So, when I saw that Moon's next aspect was an opposition to the planet of communication, Mercury, which is also conjunct malefic Mars, I took it to suggest that there might be obstacles, and that it quite possibly might not bode well for your contacting her, especially in the face that she did not respond to your last overture.
 

unteruber

Well-known member
Now there are further two things that need to be taken into account -

1- The 'planetary joys' are the houses that each planet most enjoys to be in. This for Moon is 3rd house.

2- Mercury is in its fall in pisces [so communication might not be best].


 

Vista

Well-known member
Practicing the method Dr Farr uses Ankara Method(Dr Farr hopefully I am correct in my delineation).

You - 1st Sun
Moon is your coruler
She - 7th Saturn

Sun and Saturn are mutually applying by trine because Saturn is Retrograding towards Sun +2

Sun is in a pitted degree, 8th house and conjunct the Part of Fortune(you are slightly worried about the outcome and the cards are in her hand it seems although slightly modified by fortunate POF) -1

Moon flows towards Saturn via sextile and it's mutual because of the retrograde Saturn(In Ankara method rx planets are strengthened) +1

Saturn is in your 4th house which is angular and strong +1 however, I do wonder about it being here as it also rules the end of the matter

So, we have a net of +4 positive indicators and one -1 which nets +3 so a yes to your question.

Someone I am thinking of contacting. She did not respond to my last message. I am interested in seeing if there is a possibility of relationship with her [i.e. I am taking her signifactor as L7], or at least exhaust the possibility and end any further case for illusions.

L1& L7 mutual reception by face.
L1 & L7 applying trine.
L7 & Moon (my co-sig) separating sextile.
Moon in 3rd house - my eagerness to contact her?
L4 is venus, in H8 [not sure how to interpret this]

I'll post more of my own reading tonight.

26.2.2013, 2.39pm Birmingham UK

thanks.
 

IleneK

Premium Member
According to whom? Would love to read if you can reference some writings.

thanks.


Deborah Houlding's website is well sourced. She writes:
Traditional astrological techniques such as horary and electional astrology maintain this heavy reliance upon the Moon, using it as an important co-significator in every chart. This approach is evident in even our earliest sources, with the ancient text of Dorotheus describing the Moon as "the indicator at the base of every action". [14] It is often stated that the Moon is the co-significator for the querent in every horary; yet whilst this is true, it's influence is more extensive than that - the Moon also reveals the 'action' or the general drift of events and as such it demonstrates the underlying motivation towards the event, and the way that the querent's interest may or may not be supported by external events.

The link to the Moon in horary is:
 

unteruber

Well-known member
Vista,

thank you for sharing your ideas. I just re-formulated the chart using Dr Farr's technique [he uses whole house system]. The picture remains much same except moon being shifted to 2nd house.

I agree with pretty much what you wrote. Although if we turn the chart she does not have mars, venus in her 7th but in her third house. And [in the whole house], 4th house ruler is mars, which rules Saturn as well.

Generally Sun and Saturn are considered good pairing in horary [although as you have indicated Sun being in the pitted degree is weak].

I am not sure what should be interpreted regarding mars being conjunct mercury; can we take it as harsh, disruptive communication? or would a conjunct mean a more forthright, honest, almost tactless communication?

cheers.

Practicing the method Dr Farr uses Ankara Method(Dr Farr hopefully I am correct in my delineation).

You - 1st Sun
Moon is your coruler
She - 7th Saturn

Sun and Saturn are mutually applying by trine because Saturn is Retrograding towards Sun +2

Sun is in a pitted degree, 8th house and conjunct the Part of Fortune(you are slightly worried about the outcome and the cards are in her hand it seems although slightly modified by fortunate POF) -1

Moon flows towards Saturn via sextile and it's mutual because of the retrograde Saturn(In Ankara method rx planets are strengthened) +1

Saturn is in your 4th house which is angular and strong +1 however, I do wonder about it being here as it also rules the end of the matter

So, we have a net of +4 positive indicators and one -1 which nets +3 so a yes to your question.
 

unteruber

Well-known member
Thank you IleneK.

Deborah Houlding's website is well sourced. She writes:
Traditional astrological techniques such as horary and electional astrology maintain this heavy reliance upon the Moon, using it as an important co-significator in every chart. This approach is evident in even our earliest sources, with the ancient text of Dorotheus describing the Moon as "the indicator at the base of every action". [14] It is often stated that the Moon is the co-significator for the querent in every horary; yet whilst this is true, it's influence is more extensive than that - the Moon also reveals the 'action' or the general drift of events and as such it demonstrates the underlying motivation towards the event, and the way that the querent's interest may or may not be supported by external events.

The link to the Moon in horary is:
 

Vista

Well-known member
You are welcome!

I personally don't feel Mercury conjunct Mars are significant. They don't ruler and of the questions significators.

Vista,

thank you for sharing your ideas. I just re-formulated the chart using Dr Farr's technique [he uses whole house system]. The picture remains much same except moon being shifted to 2nd house.

I agree with pretty much what you wrote. Although if we turn the chart she does not have mars, venus in her 7th but in her third house. And [in the whole house], 4th house ruler is mars, which rules Saturn as well.

Generally Sun and Saturn are considered good pairing in horary [although as you have indicated Sun being in the pitted degree is weak].

I am not sure what should be interpreted regarding mars being conjunct mercury; can we take it as harsh, disruptive communication? or would a conjunct mean a more forthright, honest, almost tactless communication?

cheers.
 

Vista

Well-known member
I do wonder one thing however as a general question although pertinent to your question as well: Saturn retrograde or and horary significators planet being retrograde, does that mean a return to something(you) or a second look? It would seem it could apply with her since she ignored your text yet perhaps she will come around again? Just a thought....
 

unteruber

Well-known member
I do wonder one thing however as a general question although pertinent to your question as well: Saturn retrograde or and horary significators planet being retrograde, does that mean a return to something(you) or a second look? It would seem it could apply with her since she ignored your text yet perhaps she will come around again? Just a thought....

Yes I was wondering about this myself. Although, since I am an actor in the entire dynamic, there is an obvious conflict of interest and I do not want to trust my own reading too much.

Beside horary, I just checked her natal, transiting mars and venus are sextile her natal venus, which is interesting to say the least.
Thanks Vista.
 
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Vista

Well-known member
Hopefully someone else will chime in....Ilenek, any thoughts?

Yes I was wondering about this myself. Although, since I am an actor in the entire dynamic, there is an obvious conflict of interest and I do not want to trust my own reading too much.

Beside horary, I just checked her natal, transiting mars and venus are sextile her natal venus, which is interesting to say the least.
Thanks Vista.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I usually consider RX of a significator to suggest a return to, re-examination of, looking back toward, trying again, etc, possibility.

3rd triplicity lord of the 4th house: this was the original "end of the matter" indicator used in horary (prior to the time of Bonatti, although mentioned as late as the time of Ibn Ezra, in the 12th century) Although not really used in the basic (rather simple) Ankara horary method, it was extensively used in early horary (up through the time of Lilly, after which it tended to fall into disuse)
How do you use it?
-look at the sign on the 4th house
-find the 3rd triplicity lord of the sign of the 4th house
-now, examine the condition of this planet (ie the 3rd triplicty lord planet): this will indicate the nature of the "end" (or final resolution/outcome) of the subject matter of the horary question.
Example: say the sign on the 4th house is Aquarius: the 3rd triplicity ruler of that that sign is Jupiter (see the tables of triplicty rulers in the Traditionalist literature)
The condition of Jupiter in the horary chart, and the relationship of Jupiter to the querent and quesited significators in that chart, indicate how the matter of the horary question will turn out.
I have sometime used this very oldtime method, it is an interesting technique!
 
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unteruber

Well-known member
Thanks Dr Farr,

In this chart [regio house system] sign on the 4th house is Libra, its 3rd triplicity lord is Jupiter [both night/day], which is in Gemini [in detriment], with apply sextile with asc.

If we change the house system to the whole house system sign on the 4th house is Scorpio, its 3rd triplicity lord is Moon, which is in Virgo, and hence exalted. Moon is applying sextile with the lucky strike NN. Moon is in opposition with mercury and mars.

Is this correct? And which house system shall we use in this case? ANd where to go from here?


I usually consider RX of a significator to suggest a return to, re-examination of, looking back toward, trying again, etc, possibility.

3rd triplicity lord of the 4th house: this was the original "end of the matter" indicator used in horary (prior to the time of Bonatti, although mentioned as late as the time of Ibn Ezra, in the 12th century) Although not really used in the basic (rather simple) Ankara horary method, it was extensively used in early horary (up through the time of Lilly, after which it tended to fall into disuse)
How do you use it?
-look at the sign on the 4th house
-find the 3rd triplicity lord of the sign of the 4th house
-now, examine the condition of this planet (ie the 3rd triplicty lord planet): this will indicate the nature of the "end" (or final resolution/outcome) of the subject matter of the horary question.
Example: say the sign on the 4th house is Aquarius: the 3rd triplicity ruler of that that sign is Jupiter (see the tables of triplicty rulers in the Traditionalist literature)
The condition of Jupiter in the horary chart, and the relationship of Jupiter to the querent and quesited significators in that chart, indicate how the matter of the horary question will turn out.
I have sometime used this very oldtime method, it is an interesting technique!
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
As you know, it is my belief that whole sign is the most generally accurate house system (that's why I use it)-so, someone asks me I would say, go with whole sign (in the above example I regard Scorpio as sign on the 4th house, with the Moon as 3rd triplicity lord, and the condition of the Moon as indicative of how the matter would eventually turn out)
 

Vista

Well-known member
Dr Farr, the triplicity ruler Moon(for 4th house Scorpio) is VOC, is this not concidered a factor or pointing to the end of the matter or does it not matter as Ankara dictates? So in other words, if the Moon is "flowing towards" the significators of the question is this considered positive indicator of the outcome?


As you know, it is my belief that whole sign is the most generally accurate house system (that's why I use it)-so, someone asks me I would say, go with whole sign (in the above example I regard Scorpio as sign on the 4th house, with the Moon as 3rd triplicity lord, and the condition of the Moon as indicative of how the matter would eventually turn out)
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
1) In the pre-Ibn Ezra horary authors (Massalah, etc) who often used the end-of-the-matter triplicity method, VOC Moon was given very little (if any) consideration (at best it was considered a minor detriment)

2) In the Ankara method VOC Moon does not enter into any delineative consideration; yes, with the Moon flowing toward the significators, that would be considered as + testimony.
 

Vista

Well-known member
Thank you again! Sorry to inundate you but i do have one final question if you don't mind? In relationship charts, do you consider an applying conjunction from the Questied's significator to the Querent' s ASC a valid aspect or a positive indicator?


1) In the pre-Ibn Ezra horary authors (Massalah, etc) who often used the end-of-the-matter triplicity method, VOC Moon was given very little (if any) consideration (at best it was considered a minor detriment)

2) In the Ankara method VOC Moon does not enter into any delineative consideration; yes, with the Moon flowing toward the significators, that would be considered as + testimony.
 
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