What proof is there that pisces is co-ruled by jupiter?

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Not at all. I should probably post a pic of the Thema Mundi so that this makes more sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi

Here's the Wikipedia link for the Thema Mundi. It's supposed to be the birth chart of the world or of God. It probably isn't, but it's super, super, super old and what the domicile rulerships seem to be based on....or at least that's the way they were explained when the Greeks were laying this stuff out. It may be even older, but a lot of Greek authors fully articulated it.

It starts with the luminaries. The Sun gets Leo because Summer and all of that (if you follow the Tropical model) and the Moon gets Cancer because it's the domicile next to the Sun and the Moon is dependent on the Sun for her light. Then the planets go out in Chaldean order from there: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and finally Saturn.

The signs of the luminaries are dividing lines.
Everything from Cancer to Capricorn is the lunar half,
everything from Leo to Aquarius is the Solar half.
From this you can probably see why Jupiter's trine to Cancer
matters in the domicile assignment but Mars' trine to Cancer form Scorpio doesn't.
The domiciles of the luminaries are dividing lines.
ILLUSTRATION SHOWS SIGNS/DOMICILES OF THE LUMINARIES ARE DIVIDING LINES :smile:






likeengirdling.jpg








Rulers.gif


In other words, as far as the rationale for the domicile assignments are concerned, it's incorrect to say that Mars trines Cancer from Scorpio as it has to cross over Leo to do it. What's more immediate is the fact that Scorpio squares Leo, the home of the Sun. Squares are discordant and Mars is the lesser malefic. Aries squares Cancer, so that's Mars' sign too. The fact that Aries trines Leo is irrelevant because it has to square Cancer first. Mars is seen as bad because the Sun is the "life force" and for us humans our soul and perceptive capacity. The Moon is the physical body and is tied to physical well-being. A planet in conflict with those basic things isn't necessarily easy to get along with. You get the idea.

As long as you see that aspects can't cross the domiciles of the luminaries, then everything falls into place. I'm also not defending the absolute perfection of the Thema Mundi and especially not Ptolemy's seasonal rationale for the domicile assignments. I'm just saying that this is what it's all built off of.

As for Scorpio being fertile....yes and no. I should've been more clear. Ptolemy, when providing his seasonal rationale for the domicile rulerships, was talking about the time of year being fertile or infertile. If we follow the seasonal logic Cancer is a very fertile time of year in the Northern Hemisphere. It is the very start of Summer. Pisces less so, but it is also when the snows melt...thereby setting the stage for the growth of Spring. Scorpio however.....well no. Scorpio is the middle of Autumn, where everything is dying. I believe Bonatti (writing waaaay letter) refers to Scorpio as poisonous water. There are issues with this seasonal rationale of course, but that's the line of thought Ptolemy was going on.

Scorpio is fertile in another sense. This is the sense of fertility I believe you were talking about, but this doesn't have anything to do with seasons. The so-called fertile signs were originally called "Aquatic" signs as they all represent animals seen as aquatic (Scorpions aren't actually aquatic, but meh). They are "fertile" in the sense that they indicate having many children as the animals that they're based on all have many, many children (Crabs, Scorpions, and Fish). This has nothing to do with season and everything to do with the image of the constellations. Scorpio indicates having many children but is pretty awful if you follow the seasonal rationale.
images
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The Thema Mundi is a theory, not a proof

.
Thema Mundi is a mythical horoscope used in Hellenistic astrology
illustrating the supposed positions of the seven visible planets
at the beginning of the universe

....The Thema Mundi is an Hellenistic Era Natural Wheel
that illustrates fundamental astrological principles.
In addition, it reveals the inner geometrical elegance
that gives these fundamentals their meaning and definition....:smile:



images
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
I know that in traditional astrology pisces is only ruled by jupiter, but in modern astrology it's ruled by both neptune and jupiter. My only question is what is the evidence that it is ruled by both neptune and jupiter?

Hi YonyGursho,

There is none.

I mean we know virgo and gemini are both only ruled by mercury and are both very intellectual signs, and they are opposite signs of pisces and sagitarrius, so it would make sense for pisces and sagitarrius to be ruled by the same planet?

I mean how can pisces be opposite virgo and have neptune and jupiter, but sagitarrius can be opposite gemini and have only jupiter? It's an uneven amount of planets per sign, and it would make most sense if just mercury and jupiter are opposite planets and thats all it takes for pisces and virgo to be opposites, instead of pisces needing an additional planet to be opposite of virgo lol.

It might help to understand the scheme.

There are 12 signs and 7 celestial bodies. Those 7 celestial bodies are further divided into the 5 planets and the 2 luminaries and paired off based on qualities.

Signs of Venus oppose signs of Mars. Why? Venus is pleasure; Mars is pain.

Right? Yes, Mars is violence and anger and so on, but that's all pain or painful or results in painfulness, right?

Mercury's signs oppose Jupiter's signs. Mercury is logic; Jupiter is philosophy.

Mercury's logic says a certain action is necessary, while Jupiter's benevolence says that certain action may not be philosophically correct.

See?

Of the two luminaries, Sun is given masculine Leo and Moon feminine Cancer and both luminaries oppose the Dark Lord Saturn who is Lord of the Planets. Light opposing Dark. Saturn's in the deep cold, while Sun is warm and toasty and certain Moon phases are warm and toasty.

We see that pisces is the sign of illusion, dreams, isolation, and imaginary things. Jupiter is said to be part of pisces, but jupiter is the planet of joviality, happiness, merriment, optimism, humor, fun, freedom, expansion.

You just listed the positive facets of Jupiter while totally ignoring the negative facets like pious fraud, excess, false hope, illusions, grandiosity and such.

You don't need Neptune when you have Jupiter.

Jupiter in H6, H8 or H12 is everything except "joviality, happiness, merriment, optimism, humor, fun, freedom, expansion."

Jupiter can also be hostile and have a bad temperament, which is why in a mundane chart a H8 Jupiter is an indicator of war.

In old times astrologers did not know Neptun.

Hi norbertsco,

That doesn't matter.

At least traditional astrologers didn't engage in full-scale tautology.

A little girl names a newly discovered body "Pluto" after a Disney character, but modern astrologers say, "no, she actually meant Pluto the god of war" an then try to crow-bar Pluto into something it never was.

If Neptune had been named "Angel" instead of "Neptune" it would have a whole different interpretation by modern astrologers and they probably would have assigned it to Aquarius.

That's not even impressive.

Jupiter is a sky-ruler, symbolized by the lightning bolt. Pisces is a deep water Sign. Not seeing the connection in that sense. Neptune fits, as sea-ruler, symbolized by the fisherman's trident.

Hi david starling,

Nobody cares if Jupiter is a thunder god and that's not how rulerships were assigned.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Hi YonyGursho,

There is none.



It might help to understand the scheme.

There are 12 signs and 7 celestial bodies. Those 7 celestial bodies are further divided into the 5 planets and the 2 luminaries and paired off based on qualities.

Signs of Venus oppose signs of Mars. Why? Venus is pleasure; Mars is pain.

Right? Yes, Mars is violence and anger and so on, but that's all pain or painful or results in painfulness, right?

Mercury's signs oppose Jupiter's signs. Mercury is logic; Jupiter is philosophy.

Mercury's logic says a certain action is necessary, while Jupiter's benevolence says that certain action may not be philosophically correct.

See?

Of the two luminaries, Sun is given masculine Leo and Moon feminine Cancer and both luminaries oppose the Dark Lord Saturn who is Lord of the Planets. Light opposing Dark. Saturn's in the deep cold, while Sun is warm and toasty and certain Moon phases are warm and toasty.



You just listed the positive facets of Jupiter while totally ignoring the negative facets like pious fraud, excess, false hope, illusions, grandiosity and such.

You don't need Neptune when you have Jupiter.

Jupiter in H6, H8 or H12 is everything except "joviality, happiness, merriment, optimism, humor, fun, freedom, expansion."

Jupiter can also be hostile and have a bad temperament, which is why in a mundane chart a H8 Jupiter is an indicator of war.



Hi norbertsco,

That doesn't matter.

At least traditional astrologers didn't engage in full-scale tautology.

A little girl names a newly discovered body "Pluto" after a Disney character, but modern astrologers say, "no, she actually meant Pluto the god of war" an then try to crow-bar Pluto into something it never was.

If Neptune had been named "Angel" instead of "Neptune" it would have a whole different interpretation by modern astrologers and they probably would have assigned it to Aquarius.

That's not even impressive.



Hi david starling,

Nobody cares if Jupiter is a thunder god and that's not how rulerships were assigned.

The ancients cared. And, I have my own theory as to how rulerships were assigned which have nothing to do with the attributes of the gods. However, there is a remarkable synchronicity to the attributes, once the rulerships are in place, which affirms the rulership assignments. For example, the fast-transiting planet Mercury, as "the messenger of the gods".
In my Modernistic opinion, the ONLY reason Jupiter was given rulership of both Sagittarius and Pisces, is the limited combination of 7 Rulers and 12 Signs. Once the Outermosts are included, the rulership of Pisces moves from Jupiter to Neptune. And the synchronicity holds, regarding the attributes of the Ruler as it relates to the Sign.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Here's my reason for the Sun and Moon having being given rulership of only one Sign apiece, and the planets each ruling two: The Sun and Moon move in only one direction, and the planets have both Direct and Retrograde movement. Ptolemy belatedly explained it as the Sun being "too masculine" and the Moon being "too feminine" to rule both a masculine and a feminine Sign, which I consider to be an incorrect theory.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Interesting that the only two astrological Planets that are completely invisible to the naked eye, are named for gods who ruled beneath the surface of the Earth. Btw, Pluto wasn't a god of war, he ruled the Underworld of departed souls.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Not at all. I should probably post a pic of the Thema Mundi so that this makes more sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi

Here's the Wikipedia link for the Thema Mundi. It's supposed to be the birth chart of the world or of God. It probably isn't
It's an impossible birth chart. I suppose in theory, everything could be at 15 degrees of its sign at once--but Venus can't be at 15 Libra if the sun is at 15 Leo. That puts them 60 degrees apart. The farthest Venus can get from the sun is 48 degrees. And Mercury can't get any more than 28 degrees from the sun. So while Mercury could be near the middle of Virgo when the sun is in the middle of Leo, if the sun is at 15 degrees Leo, Mercury can't be any farther into Virgo than 13 degrees.

Scorpio is fertile in another sense. This is the sense of fertility I believe you were talking about, but this doesn't have anything to do with seasons. The so-called fertile signs were originally called "Aquatic" signs as they all represent animals seen as aquatic (Scorpions aren't actually aquatic, but meh). They are "fertile" in the sense that they indicate having many children as the animals that they're based on all have many, many children (Crabs, Scorpions, and Fish). This has nothing to do with season and everything to do with the image of the constellations. Scorpio indicates having many children but is pretty awful if you follow the seasonal rationale.

Yes, I did mean that kind of fertility. I've only heard of fertile/infertile signs in the context of whether or not they favor having children.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
A little girl names a newly discovered body "Pluto" after a Disney character, but modern astrologers say, "no, she actually meant Pluto the god of war" an then try to crow-bar Pluto into something it never was.
Pluto is the god of the underworld, not war. And Pluto the Disney character was named after the planet, not the other way around. Pluto the dog wasn't introduced until two months after the discovery and naming of the planetoid.

Hi david starling,

Nobody cares if Jupiter is a thunder god and that's not how rulerships were assigned.
Speak for yourself only. Some people might care. And not just the ancients.

There is a very clear thunder god connection in the naming of the days of the week. In English and other Germanic languages, Thursday is named after the Norse Thor, who clearly is a thunder god. In the Romance languages, it's "Jupiter day" (jeudi, jueves, etc.) Different pantheons, similar attributes, although Jupiter is the head god of the Roman pantheon, while Thor is not the head of the Norse one--that honor goes to Odin/Wodin.

That's different from astrological signs, of course, but for people who follow planetary days, the planets rule the days named for their gods.
 

david starling

Well-known member
What was Disney thinking? :unsure:

Anyway, there's an ancient religious connection involved with a planet named P!uto and the Sign called Scorpio. The ancient Babylonians pictured the constellation of the Scorpion with ancient Egypt in mind. And, the most important god of Egypt was Osirus, transformed by the Hellenists into their god of the Underworld, Pluto.
The Romans originally had their own name for the god, "Dis Pater", but later changed it to Pluto. Pluto and Apollo are the only Greek deities I know of with the same exact name in Latin as in the Greek. Ouranos, Greek god of the Heavens, was known as "Caelus" in Latin.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
What was Disney thinking? :unsure:

Anyway, there's an ancient religious connection involved with a planet named P!uto and the Sign called Scorpio. The ancient Babylonians pictured the constellation of the Scorpion with ancient Egypt in mind. And, the most important god of Egypt was Osirus, transformed by the Hellenists into their god of the Underworld, Pluto.
The Romans originally had their own name for the god, "Dis Pater", but later changed it to Pluto. Pluto and Apollo are the only Greek deities I know of with the same exact name in Latin as in the Greek. Ouranos, Greek god of the Heavens, was known as "Caelus" in Latin.
anyway, Herschel noted existence of an outer planet and named it "George" :smile:
i.e.
"the Georgium Sidus" aka the Georgian Planet in honor of King George III of England.
The current name was first proposed by German astronomer Johann Elert Bode
 

Opal

Well-known member
I believe that the modern rulership is accurate, but, that forevermore as Jupiter was considered to have a rulership of Pisces, it will have the attributes that it was gifted by Jupiter.

Neptune fits, as to proof, there are those that don't believe astrology exists. Such is the burdens of proof.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
What was Disney thinking? :unsure:
That Mickey Mouse's dog needed a more interesting name than Rover (which is what he was called originally). So why not name him for the newly discovered planet? It was timely and perhaps futuristic.

Anyway, there's an ancient religious connection involved with a planet named P!uto and the Sign called Scorpio. The ancient Babylonians pictured the constellation of the Scorpion with ancient Egypt in mind. And, the most important god of Egypt was Osirus, transformed by the Hellenists into their god of the Underworld, Pluto.
The Romans originally had their own name for the god, "Dis Pater", but later changed it to Pluto. Pluto and Apollo are the only Greek deities I know of with the same exact name in Latin as in the Greek. Ouranos, Greek god of the Heavens, was known as "Caelus" in Latin.
Collective unconscious at work! In all these myths, and Venetia Burney apparently tapped into them.

Which also fits Pluto. And Scorpio.

Edited to add: This discussion got me curious, so I did some searching. Venetia Burney was born on July 11, 1918, making her a solar Cancer (same sign Pluto was in when it was discovered, you might recall)--and Pluto was conjunct her Sun at its discovery!
 
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Osamenor

Staff member
I believe that the modern rulership is accurate, but, that forevermore as Jupiter was considered to have a rulership of Pisces, it will have the attributes that it was gifted by Jupiter.

Neptune fits, as to proof, there are those that don't believe astrology exists. Such is the burdens of proof.

And planetary rulership of signs isn't just about how the planet vibes with the sign. That's an easy way to explain the rulership concept to new students of astrology, but rulership also has to do with observable effects of transits by and to the planets on the houses that they rule.

That seems to me to be the biggest debate point when it comes to modern rulers. Does Pluto have as much an effect on the Scorpio house of a chart as Mars? Or Neptune have as much an effect on the Pisces house as Jupiter? Do their effects on those houses differ? If so, in what ways?

Even modern astrologers don't all agree on that.
 

david starling

Well-known member
And planetary rulership of signs isn't just about how the planet vibes with the sign. That's an easy way to explain the rulership concept to new students of astrology, but rulership also has to do with observable effects of transits by and to the planets on the houses that they rule.

That seems to me to be the biggest debate point when it comes to modern rulers. Does Pluto have as much an effect on the Scorpio house of a chart as Mars? Or Neptune have as much an effect on the Pisces house as Jupiter? Do their effects on those houses differ? If so, in what ways?

Even modern astrologers don't all agree on that.

"Influence" is actually a better description than "rulership". But, it isn't just about the strength of influence, it's about the quality as well.
 
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Opal

Well-known member
That Mickey Mouse's dog needed a more interesting name than Rover (which is what he was called originally). So why not name him for the newly discovered planet? It was timely and perhaps futuristic.

Collective unconscious at work! In all these myths, and Venetia Burney apparently tapped into them.

Which also fits Pluto. And Scorpio.

Edited to add: This discussion got me curious, so I did some searching. Venetia Burney was born on July 11, 1918, making her a solar Cancer (same sign Pluto was in when it was discovered, you might recall)--and Pluto was conjunct her Sun at its discovery!

Hey Osamenor :happy::happy::happy: Don't you just love the cosmos?! It has impeccable timing. With my Pluto ruling planet and Scorpio ascending, you are making me feel, what I normally don't. Warm and fuzzy! :happy: I also like that Pluto's name is chosen by a female. Rather unexpected, and rather Pluto.
 

Opal

Well-known member
And planetary rulership of signs isn't just about how the planet vibes with the sign. That's an easy way to explain the rulership concept to new students of astrology, but rulership also has to do with observable effects of transits by and to the planets on the houses that they rule.

That seems to me to be the biggest debate point when it comes to modern rulers. Does Pluto have as much an effect on the Scorpio house of a chart as Mars? Or Neptune have as much an effect on the Pisces house as Jupiter? Do their effects on those houses differ? If so, in what ways?

Even modern astrologers don't all agree on that.

Wow, that's a tough one for me. I have Cancer Mars in the eighth. It gets kind of convoluted. With Pluto ruling Scorpio ascending and Mars in the eighth, with two of my liliths. Guess I will have to contemplate that one. Either way, I am pretty direct.
 

petosiris

Banned
"Influence" is actually a better description than "rulership". But, it isn't just about the strength of influence, it's about the quality as well.

I like the word ''predomination'' because the temperament of the place could be related to many planets like the heat of Leo is related to both Sun and Mars, but because Leo is moderately, not extremely dry, it is predominated by the Sun. Similarly, the cold of Aquarius is related to both Saturn and Moon, but because Aquarius is the coldest sign, it is predominated by Saturn and not by the Moon.
 
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