What makes a liar?

Morghana Stellara

Well-known member
Buttercup,

Right along those lines, yes, I am quite close to someone who is a pathological liar, and a thief. He has Sun, Mercury, and Neptune conjunct in Sagittarius in the 7th. Jupiter is in the 11th in his chart, which is ruled by Neptune.
 
Here are my thoughts on those naughty fibbers, which I don't think they are always intentionally out to lie (says my Gullible Mercury square Neptune :rolleyes: )

* Mercury - Jupiter

I think this aspect sometimes promises TOO MUCH and therefore cannot practically carry out all that they say. The aspect can EXAGERATE!!!! Then others often call them liars for they haven't done or don't do what they have promised to do!!!!.

*Mercury - Saturn

Liz Greene in her book on Saturn says this the Mercury/Saturn aspect:

The curious expression of the chronic and uncontrollable liar is also one of the less attractive facets of Mercury-Saturn. But Saturn remains true to form here in that there must be present a reasonable degree of intelligence, sensitivity and complexity in order for such distortion or OVERCOMPENSATION to exist.

*Mercury - Neptune

Some people with this aspect are confused as to what the truth is. They can be highly GULLIBLE themselves and may therefore understand how other people can equally be prone to deception and therefore play on this and cheat and decieve other people for they know their MENTAL VULNERABILITES.

* Mercury - Pluto

Thes people know secret information and although they might not OUTWARDLY lie they just DON'T TELL YOU ANYTHING :D .

Sociopathic Personality:

I was reading this on the SOCIOPATH PERSONALITY which had some astrological indication for liars mainly our GEMINI friends.
This disorder commonly called Multiple Personality Disorder or MPD is usually found with people born with a strong negative affliction to Mercury (the mind) and hard aspects to the Dragon's Tail in Gemini. They do learn at an early age to lie to avoid trouble, and they are also somehow superficial and have problems with established rules and authority. The past-life residue in Gemini (double personality) is not yet eliminated or understood by the subject and is used in the form of manipulation and deceit. Reluctant to obtain education due to a poor memory, or a lack of attention, many of them end up as a "Jack of all trades," unable to focus and crystallize the thought processes. Afflicted by negative Mercury (Lord of the Thieves), they appear to be charming and smooth in their dealings, but they can be manipulative and insensitive. In order to stay alive, in previous past lives, the soul mastered the art of stealing and lying to survive. Many of them were involved in metaphysical work and had to perform their second occupation at night. Their endeavors involved witchcraft, healing with herbs, plants, using the Cabala and astrology. To avoid serious repercussion from the church authority of their time, they developed a gift of disguise, were lying and adapting fast to any situation meant saving their precious life.
 
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salix288

Member
Looking to Jupiter said:
I have looked back over some charts of people i have known and i have found this conjunctions interp from astro.teacher to be true from where i stand....perhaps it is differnt for you, from your angle, having the conjunction as opposed to seeing it from the outside .....I'd like to think i have it wrong, and it is quite possible that what you say about slow communication is true.....but i am struggling believing it isnt a way to be looking at this aspect.....


[non-astrological comments deleted - Moderator]
What I told you about POTENTIAL slow communication either came directly from the description of the conjunction on this very website or by Robert Hand. Saturn isn't illusion or deception. It's limits and it clarifies and teaches lessons. You seem to be talking about Neptune here
 
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23

Well-known member
Hello Shining (or Ms Saturn :D)

I've never heard of saturn-mercury aspect leading to a liar!! I have the opposition between the two myself and have constantly read (regardless of type of aspect) that these aspect gives to very sober and practical thinking. So I can't really see how this can make someone a liar :) Plus lying is not really associated with saturn as a whole!

The few glib talkers that I do know seem to have the mercury-neptune aspects, particularly the opposition. Its because they can't decipher the truth from themselves...
 

racole12

Member
Pertaining to this topic and my chart here are the characters...

I have Merc (chart ruler/ASC Gemini) in Sag (6th house) squared to saturn in Virgo (4th)
Also, I have Jupiter in Leo (3rd house) Trine Merc in Sag (6th)
Nodes- North Virgo (4th), South Pisces (10th) (NN conj to Saturn, fyi)
With Neptune conj Sun in Sag (6th)
both Jupiter and Merc in Retro
all major angles in mutable signs.

As you can tell I have a lot of mutable energy just pertaining to this... I have all four corners covered Sign wise, all my mutable planets are in a mutable sign OR house and the rulers of my angles are in a mutable sign OR house also.

When I was younger I would lie a lot just to lie because I knew I could get away with it. It was like a game, just to see how far I could go, but there was a line. I wouldn't lie about anything that could get me or someone else in trouble. And I was awesome at telling stories, but I like to act too. But as I got older my conscious kicked in and if I did lie I would have a huge amount of guilt to go along with it (I guess because of Saturn in Virgo squared my AC, Merc, Sun and Neptune) It got to a point that I couldn't handle the guilt. I still stretch the truth when I'm pissed off, but I take responsibility for it after I cool down, I wouldnt be a Sag if I didn't- just kidding. lol. I could always pick up when someone was "lying" to me (I guess that was because of the all Neptune energy I have) but I didn't call anybody out on it until I got older and start trusting my intuition. (maybe from Jup and Merc in Retro?... taking time to "understand my talents"?) Also, I tell the truth the way it is without sugar coating it, I actually don't know how to sugar coat it, especially if is going against my morals (NN in Virgo, Merc in Sag/6th house maybe?) I'm really working on "softening" the "blow". And, if I know that the statement I am making is 100% actuate I won't stand down because I believe the truth needs to be heard and I only speak at that level when I know I'm right (Gemini ASC/Sun in Sag seeking the truth and thinking that is backed up by my Venus in Scor in the 5th house and/or my Moon in Taurus/11th/12th house cusp (tons of fixed energy making me stubborn and making sure I know I'm being heard.. when I allow someone to push me to that line)

There is my stab in the dark ...lol
 
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blennus

Well-known member
Ultimately, what makes a liar is the choice to lie. That said, some charts are more prone to that than others. Remember also there are various methods and ways of lying. For example, my ex-wife was not skilled at lying per se, but her neptune conjunt asc, made it seem like she was always out of it, and it looked like she didn't get what was going on around her, as if she were in a perpetual cloud of confusion. However appearances can be deceptive, for she was very keen and watching everything going around her, and used her appearance to her advantage. That is how she got away with her lies. By not saying a single word, (scorpio ascendant helped with that I think) and letting others think as she pleased, letting them jump to the conclusions that they wanted. By appearing (ascendant) weak and in need of help (again the neptune influence) she was able to use people to her advantage. That does not mean that Ascendant-Neptune conjuntion promotes lying, rather it can be said that the influence of Neptune (whether it be afflicted or exalted) is outwardly expressed and is visible to all. That may promote a compassionate outward appearance, or spirituality, that is up to other factors in the chart as to how the native's neptunian influence is strongest. Neptune may be about confusion, but Pluto is about secrets. Plutonian lies are not about telling a falsehood, but about witholding the truth. Thus that is another form of deception. Since there are various ways one can deceive it can be difficult to get through all possible permutations of what is and what isn't condusive to lying. However one thing I will say is that I believe that harmonious aspects are more prone to it than stressful ones, simply because they can get away with it, whereas stressful aspects force one to action and change, rather than embracing the status quo.
 

redwolf481

Well-known member
AquariusT said:
Mercury opposing Neptune.

its so complicated normally I would agree with you...I have mercury opposition neptune exact....I am very very very honest...actually its very very hard for me to lie...I am the kid who couldnt' get away with anything...if my friends snuck into the movies I am the one who got caught(mars is opposite neptune by one degree) my mercury and mars are in the 9th house conjunct my midheaven....
my neptune and uranus in sag are in the 3rd house......I am unnaturally honets....I can stretch the truth sometimes...but I am the kid who couldn't tell my parents what they wanted to hear...if I did something that I knew what upset my parents I would tell them before I did it an dthen I would do it...or i would guiltily tell them right after words even if I could of gotten away with it...my friends know not to tell me things because I can't lie either.....I can't go along with something......I have mercury exactly trine pluto in scorpio in the first house......I can ferret out info out of people charmingly lol(libra rising...venus in taurus venus and pluto are my 2 strongest planets) I come off so nice people tell me things and are surprised when they do...I am a gemini as well
 

katydid

Staff member
Mercury / Neptune rings a bell. One of the biggest known liars in the headlines today is the young mom accused of killing her little girl Caylee.
We do not know if she is guilty of that, but we do know, from released transcripts , that this woman is a pathological liar. She wove a huge web of very detailed lies, with false names and false addresses, and flat out lied right in peoples faces, as if she were telling God's truth. She was very convincing because she was so bold in the way she told stories.

Anyway it turns out that Casey Anthony was a Pisces, born 3/19/86.
She has sun conjunct mercury in pisces in a tight square to Mars conjunct Uranus in Sag. She also has a very tight square between Venus/aries and Neptune /cap. " so - She thinks on her feet and doesn't give a darn what happens in the end. It is the 'moment' that counts"
 
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Ali

Well-known member
I've always connected Mer/Neptune to liars, so I was surprised by the mer/saturn idea. So, I thought, who's one of the most famous liars in history? I thought of Stalin ("purge? What purge? I never ordered any purge." He's got an exact Trine of Mercury in Sag /saturn in Aries. Creepy.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
Jupiter for story telling and exaggeration. Neptune with Mercury is the liar aspect. 12th house and 3rd house. Looking for attention add the Sun.
Looking for emotional support add the Moon. For compulsiveness add Pluto.
Boasting of sexual adventures add Mars and lying about love add Venus. Especially if Pisces is involved.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
Ali said:
I've always connected Mer/Neptune to liars, so I was surprised by the mer/saturn idea. So, I thought, who's one of the most famous liars in history? I thought of Stalin ("purge? What purge? I never ordered any purge." He's got an exact Trine of Mercury in Sag /saturn in Aries. Creepy.

THis aspect deals more with responsibility with speech and also being authoritarian and able to convince others. Fame belongs to Saturn and the 10th house and in Aries can indicate aggression and warfare. Mercury in Sagittarius is an exaggerated placement and can indicate going to war for religious and philosophical reasons. Getting rid of foreigners!!
 

Claire19

Well-known member
junetown said:
thank you! i was so curious, lol. mercury sounds like a nasty little punk when placed poorly.

i have millions of questions and fun astrology ideas but i'm gonna try and ease them in, instead of overwhelming the masses.

Mercury is essentially neutral and takes on the colour of the planet it is aspecting. It is the planet of speech and communication and in Pisces or Scorpio can be deceitful.
 

Ali

Well-known member
I went back to the Stalin chart. Mercury trine Saturn and quincunx Neptune in Taurus -- all exact in the tenth degree. So there's Neptune again. Maybe, the saturn just makes his lying effective and well planned.
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
I find this subject very interesting, but I tend to subscribe to the belief that lying is essentially a choice one makes. I know those with harsh Neptune-Moon aspects (myself included here) who tend to lie to themselves as a coping mechanism, rather than for the purposes of deception.

Earlier someone mentioned sociopaths, since sociopaths essentially live a lie. I have known several sociopaths, and each has had different astrological features, but mostly Gemini is heavily involved - but not always.
I currently know someone who is a text-book sociopath, with much of his behaviour described in two major astrological setups - that of Mars opp Jupiter; and a Venus-Pluto conjunction tightly squaring a Moon-Saturn conjunction.
Now, rather than any of that describing a liar - and he is such a compulsive, even unconscious liar - it describes extreme levels of past-history stress, and present-day relationship stress which he attempts to offset by lying.

As I've stated in other posts on other threads, to look for the astrological placement for `something' may work sometimes, but frequently other astrological stress placements can lead to coping mechanisms which then become integrated into a person's `arsenal'. The man described above is in his early 50's, has already been through his Chiron Return, and I'm supposing that the way he is now is the way he's always going to be....He's very compulsive, obsessive, angry and projects all his `stuff' on to the world around him. He approaches people with a charming veneer, but challenge him (which I have), and he turns into a snarling rottweiler. i.e. he's not even a terribly successful sociopath!!
 

Claire19

Well-known member
astro.teacher said:
Deceit, fraud, lying, all products of an evil Mercury (either Essentially debilitated, or Accidentally placed in bad places of the chart). You can be sure that the worse state Mercury is in, especially when mixed with other Planets (Saturn or Mars especially) can produce prolific liars and cheats.

As for someone who can discover such liars, good Mercury placement as well as Jupiter (being ruler of Judges) can indicate people who discover deceit easily. Does that answer your question?

I dont agree about the Saturn connection to Mercury for lies except perhaps for motivations of fear. Mars just gives energy to Mercury and can give a quick wit and thinking on your feet, if connected with Neptune, then yes perhaps a liar.

Essentially Neptune has to be involved for deceit and/or Pisces.
 
The government is Saturn ruled, lies, lies and cover ups. It's just very cleverly done.

By Liz Greene: The curious expression of the chronic and uncontrollable liar is also one of the less attractive facets of Mercury-Saturn. But Saturn remains true to form here in that there must be present a reasonable degree of intelligence, sensitivity and complexity in order for such distortion or OVERCOMPENSATION to exist.

I did a chart on the postcard bandit, a deceptive liar: mercury/Venus in Gemini forming part of a t,square with Jupiter in Pisces and Pluto.

Another interesting liar was one who appeared in the very first big brother in England. He was called Nasty Nick Lol, were like schoolchildren over here. But he told numerous lies with complete ease in the house. I wasn't bothered personally as it was entertaining viewing, but he got it bad from the press for a while. I have never seen his chart so I am just about to draw it up and get you a video and information on him, and I will post the chart. I am intrigued to see the chart myself. I can't remember all the lies he told. I am sure he said his wife was killed in a car crash, when she wasn't to get sympathy and win. Here is the Video Evidence of his terrible, terrible lies. Turning robocop. This video is where the scouser from Liverpool confronts him. (p.s I am from scouseland and talk like this :p )

Anyway back to the chart. Sun/Mercury in scorpio and we have R Mercury inconjunct Saturn. Jupiter square Neptune. As you see from the video he seems a bit of a posh toff, but lies like there is no tomorrow. Mars in exalted in Capricorn square Saturn which is not so well placed in Aries. We could look at his insecurities here and need to overcompensate etc.. No air in the chart, don't know the asc but the element is still missing, the air houses could compensate but we won't know this.

nastyboyee5.gif
 
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I will quote his list of lies source here:

nick_28june07_rex170.jpg


His scheming and stirring has not stopped since. In last night's episode, Nick quietly confided to Thomas, a computer designer from Ulster who was one of this week's two potential leavers, that he had had a dream that Thomas would not be the one to go. Nick later trotted into the girls' bedroom and while massaging Caroline, the other name on the eviction list, told her he had had a vision: that she would stay.

When he is not playing his rivals off against each other, Nick spends a lot of time lying to them. Contrary to what he has told his housemates, friends in the outside world have revealed that Nick is not a senior Lloyd's broker but a junior, he is not the vice-president of Fulham FC but just one of 77, and, worst of all, never had a wife who died in Australia.

What has proved doubly infuriating to viewers is that while 24-hour filming throughout the house allows them to see every bit of Nick's duplicity - even his secret poaching of the house's cigarette supply - his housemates are completely in the dark. Worse, they love him. Easily the most popular man in the house, Nick has never been nominated for expulsion by any of them.
On Tuesday night, Nick was in the garden telling Craig, a Liverpudlian builder, that Caroline and Nichola, a textile designer from Bolton, didn't have a "brain between them". The following night, the two women sat discussing how much they liked Nick. "He's so lovely," said Caroline. "But why's he so nervous?"

It is true that Nick has been much more subdued lately - he recently confided to the others that he was worried that the public might hate him. Some believe that Nick has somehow discovered just how much the public do hate him. Encouraged by its readers, the Sun is running a "kick out Nick" campaign; security guards surrounding the house had to be issued with tennis rackets after photographers took to knocking tennis balls into the garden emblazoned with the words "Nick lies".

The Sun's latest theory is that Nick had smuggled a mobile phone into the house and was getting daily briefings from a friend. The show's producers did a search but found nothing. Bizarrely, the wind may be starting to change slightly in the public's mood. The Star newspaper has launched a rival pro-Nick campaign and when the official Big Brother website yesterday asked visitors for their views, it was flooded with e-mails from viewers who claimed to like him.

Although they won't admit it, both Channel 4 and the programme makers must be hoping that Nick makes it as far as possible. The Big Brother house would be more boring without him. Peter Bazalgette, whose company, Bazal, is making the programme, refuses to be drawn too far on the cult of Nick. "Clearly he's a huge talking point but the success of the programme in other countries has been based on simply finding 10 people who are reasonably extrovert, opinionated, robust and experienced."
 
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