what is the effect of Lot of Nemesis conjunct Lot of Victory?

galacti

New member
Since Lot of Nemesis is the point that which brings the native down and Lot of Victory is about trust and good expectation...when these two are tightly conjunct, does it bring the native down each time even when they have good expectations about whatever they put their faith in?

BTW what is the maximum orb degree for these Lots and Arabic parts to consider?
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Since Lot of Nemesis is the point that which brings the native down and Lot of Victory is about trust and good expectation...when these two are tightly conjunct, does it bring the native down each time even when they have good expectations about whatever they put their faith in?

BTW what is the maximum orb degree for these Lots and Arabic parts to consider?

The Hermetic Lot of Nemesis is also known as the Part of Sudden Advancement.
As to whether it was your "nemesis" or that which gave you "sudden advancement" as to fulfilling your dharma, achieving you divinely ordained destiny, can only be determined at lifes' end. You must look to the Sabian Symbol for that Sign and degree that the Lot of Nemesis/Part of Sudden Advancement is in to understand just what it is in precept that you must fulfill in order to achieve "sudden advancement" [although, it isn't always something that can be accomplished "suddenly"...more as, the idea behind the given title is that by once completing the fulfillment your position on the path of your dharma is suddenly advanced.]

For an example, consider the same Lot/Part that I derived from the chart that I contend is, and am convinced is, that of the Prince of Peace, aka Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth. It is at 10* :gemini: 33' 17", that is the 11th degree of Gemini. The Sabian Symbol given for that Sign and degree determined by the clairvoyant Elsie Wheeler and presented, interpreted and explained by the master astrologer and symbologist, the late Dane Rudhyar, from his book "An Astrological Mandala" [I recommend using only Dane's book for all reference to the Sabian Symbols] is as follows.

"GEMINI 11°: NEWLY OPENED LANDS OFFER THE PIONEER NEW OPPORTUNITIES FOR EXPERIENCE.

KEYNOTE:
The power and joy of new beginnings.

These 'newly opened lands' can refer to any as yet unexperienced field of potential activity at any level — material, emotional, mental or supermental. We are now dealing with the third level of experience, at which individuality — or at least the ego character — operates more definitely. While in the preceding phases much was said concerning the powers of the mind, this mind was essentially based on the collective patterns of a culture and a society. Now, at this third level, we find the human being essentially engaged in his personal and particular struggle for full and effective individualization. And the initial realization he has to experience is that he has reached a potentially virgin field of consciousness and activity. He is facing the unfamiliar. Anything could happen.

This is the first stage of the fifteenth five-fold sequence of symbols. Having conquered, at least to some extent, the collective and material energies of nature and society, man has become relatively 'separate' from the past. He faces the future. Every step ahead should show him
RISING TO THE OCCASION."

I am assuming here that you are familiar enough with the legend of the life of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth to know of what are called his "Lost Years", those eighteen years, of his, between the age of 12 and 30 during which time many have claimed...and there is much evidence to support...that He traveled to and through Egypt, Persia, and India to learn more about matters of the spiritual and grow and mature spiritually?

In my opinion to have this Lot/Part conjunct one and the same degree as the Hermetic Lot of Victory is most auspicious very much as like having ones' Part of Fortune conjunct their M.C. [as I do]. I have to conclude that by overcoming ones' nemesis is thus also a "victory" over all nemesises. Completion of ones' dharma and defeating the "Great Antagonists'" efforts to thwart that person. Said person with such an astrological arrangement is surely someone with a very important divinely ordained mission in life...imho.

I believe that all Astrological Parts are only given effect by exact conjunction to the same degree it is found in. It may be possible that a one degree orb exists though, to both sides, of the Part.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
I should add ...as you may be unfamiliar with the Sabian Symbols or at least unfamiliar with Rudhyar's take on them...that Dane interpreted them as belonging to sets and sub-sets. The smallest of these sub-sets is of five a set, one of three, that repeats every fifteen degrees. The first five of any sign He labeled "Actional" [which repeats from degrees 16* to, and including 20*. The second set He labeled "Emotional/Cultural" and the third set, that which the above example, in the 11th degree of Gemini, is in, He labeled "Individual/Mental"

While traveling like Yeshu'a/Jesus did for those eighteen years surely seems to be "Action" it is the "Individual/Mental" that is emphasized here. As the great Edgar Cayce, the late 20th century clairvoyant whom in reality was channeling "Ascended Masters" of the "Great White Lodge" aka "The Great White Brotherhood" [please note that by "White" nothing racial is implied, rather it has to do with the Light, the Eternal White Light that emanates from the "Godhead"], of whom the legendary Saint Germain was identified as being one of those "Masters" that spoke through Edgar Cayce on occasion, that Yeshu'a?Jesus attended what were called "The Mystery Schools" and was taught "REAL" astrology in Persia, what I identify as Hatha yoga, in India, and also Sidha yoga [where-in the study and mastery of said form of yoga of occult powers are obtained] and went through some sort of initiation rite in the Great Pyramid in Egypt.

[Read the section of the book titled "POWERS" in "How To Know God. The Yoga Aphorisms of Pantanjali" interpreted by Isherwood and you will find a description of the meditation technique that bestows one the power to walk on water, which incidentally also bestows the accomplished yogi with the power to die and come back to life at will. Rather curious, isn't it?!!?]

The Part of Fortune derived from that same natal chart comes out to be in the 19th degree of Pisces of which the Sabian Symbol for is [ibid.] "A MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE" which is an "Actional" Sabian Symbol...and it was what He literally had to do, put into action, to benefit from his Part of Fortune...which isn't about "Fortunes" of material wealth but rather slightly mis-interpreted as it is that which will provide the most fortuitous circumstances to allow you to fulfill your destiny.

Rudhyar perceived the 360 degrees of the Zodiac as being like "Four Acts" [like "acts" in a play] and every ninety degrees constituting one act apiece. Then He saw every fifteen degrees a one scene in that "Act"...thus six "Scenes" per "Act"
Gemini 11* is of "ACT ONE: DIFFERENTIATION... SCENE FIVE: DISCOVERY... LEVEL THREE: INDIVIDUAL/MENTAL... PHASE SEVENTY ONE ... As it is the 71st degree when counting from Aries 01* ...but all of that is really getting into the refined nuances of the Symbols and all one really needs to know, essentially, is that Astrological Parts are symbolically active. or relevant, and understand the difference of which of the three levels that particular Sabian Symbol in question is a "Part" of.

While it is said, and I do concur, that to have the Parrt of Fortune conjunct in the same Sign and degree as ones' M.C. I don't see that as also being true for ones' Part of Nemesis... it's a nemesis to the individual as for the reason it is going to take dedicated effort to overcome it...fulfill it. For example, my particular Lot of Nemesis/Part of Sudden Advance is in the 20th degree of Virgo [ibid.]
"VIRGO 20°: A CARAVAN OF CARS HEADED TO THE WEST COAST.
KEYNOTE:
The need of cooperative effort in reaching any "New World" of experience.
It is difficult to know, from the original formulation of the clairvoyant's vision, the type of caravan of cars that was visualized; what seems to be clearly implied is a process in which a group of persons are journeying together — thus linking their consciousnesses and energies (the 'car' symbol) — in order to safely reach the goal of destiny. Here there is no longer any sense of competition, but an ordered and structured endeavor.

At this last stage of the five-fold sequence the past is entirely left behind; men cooperate in the great 'adventure in consciousness' in a
TOTALIZATION OF PURPOSE AND EFFORT."


While this was meaningless to me until I produced the natal birth chart of Yeshu'a/Jesus and it was made clear to me that this, the presentation and explanation of it and how it is a template to understanding what is TRUTH in astrological practices...which prior to November, 2004, when I was 51 years old was something I never actually believed I was going to be able to do...and had only begun the effort in 2001... Once I read Trevor Ravencrots' book "The Cup of Destiny" and it was made clear to me that I am the fulfillment of what that book is about, i.e. Rudolf Steiner's prediction, prophecy, that Parsival would be reborn in time for the 21st century and would bring to the world the true understanding of Astrology [as I am the only one that has stepped forth that fulfills all the pre-requisites and did produce the Yeshu'a/Jesus natal chart about two and a half years before that book was even made known of to me] ...once I had read that book and my clairvoyant friend told me my destiny was to write a book on the subject and get it published...which I started to work on immediately following after I had finished reading Trevor's book, I have been at this endeavor as to as much total effort and purpose as I have been able to produce and sustain...but I have tired at times...taken days, weeks, off and do wonder if I haven't failed and that the Hermetic Lot of mine will be perceived to have been my "nemesis" at my lifes' end rather than that which provided 'sudden advancement"

Your M.C., being the 10th House cusp and also the "HOW" of the chart axis, symbolically, of the four points, the Asc., Desc., M.C., and I.C. aka the "WHO", "WHERE-TO", "HOW", and "WHY" of ONES' NATAL CHART [IN A SPIRITUAL INTERPRETATION...FOR A MUNDANE INTERPRETATION THE ROLES OF THE M.C. AND i.C. ARE SWITCHED WITH ONE ANOTHER] to have ones' symbolic nemesis share that axis point, the "HOW" of ones purposeful existence would be most burdensome, both in effort and to the mind... it would take a person of near superhuman mental and physical gist to manage such a placement...imho.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Since Lot of Nemesis is the point that which brings the native down and Lot of Victory is about trust and good expectation...when these two are tightly conjunct, does it bring the native down each time even when they have good expectations about whatever they put their faith in?

BTW what is the maximum orb degree for these Lots and Arabic parts to consider?
Lots aka Arabic Parts cannot have '...orbs...' :smile:

however THEIR PLANETARY RULERS may have orbs

Funny. I’ve seen this combo in some violent deaths
where natives were killed during travel, both
short & long journeys
post the charts


.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Funny. I’ve seen this combo in some violent deaths where natives were killed during travel, both short & long journeys

I presently hold to the belief that the orb is within one degree, They don't partake in transit, they are permanently affixed to the point they are calculated to be at, so they have no orb of influence themselves, it is the transiting luminaries, the planets, and possibly those asteroids that do have effective influence, that does affect them.
While I'm not entirely sold on the belief that the only influences are those planets that are of the formulae for derivation of the Lots/Parts, as I have observed some evidence to the contrary, those that are found in the formulae most definitely are.

As to the two Hermetic Lots here mentioned having some cause as to a death, let me point out that all of the Hermetic lots involve either the Part of Fortune or the Part of Soul and as the 3rd and 9th Houses are implied here, I don't hold to the belief that Jupiter is the ruler of the 9th House, nor the ruler of Sagittarius and Pieces, nor that Saturn is the ruler of the 10th House and Capricorn and Aquarius... as Jupiter is the planet used in determining the Lot of Victory and Saturn for that of Nemesis.
Perhaps you're under the false impression that nemesis is of the same definition as adversary? It at times is used in such a connotation but isn't the same by definition.

Perhaps my two examples I gave for the Lot of Nemesis gave you the impression that "travel" is always associated with it, because their associated Sabian Symbols are about travel? I hope not and if so I suppose I shall have to be more cautious of what I use in any examples in the future...but I'd like to think that you are not so naive? I'm not saying, or even implying that you are... I'm just "saying"... I hope, ya know...?

There are numerous formulae for Parts/Lots that some say are attributable to death, but I'm yet to be convinced of any that are said to be. We are not given sign of death for a reason. One might even say, [and actually should imho] that "it is frowned upon by the Management" when we do try to go looking for it in the stars. Yet the Part of Catastrophe is just that, of what will be catastrophic in ones life, and what it meant to the Nazarene was what brought about his demise, although not so directly, as His has the degree of Virgo that is about challenging power bases, institutions, hierarchies, and most pointedly those of religious and political power, yet any of the 360 degrees of the Zodiac, and its attendant Sabian Symbol, might be found to be that of any Part/Lot there is known to be.

Yet I'm ever discovering more evidence that there is always another side to what is the commonly accepted precept of any Lot/Part, depending on how spiritually evolved the individual in question is. Thus I believe those that are given as the Hermetic Lots can be reliably assumed that the precept given for them are that as to such spiritually evolved individuals... after all they were given to us by Hermes and whom many believe was also known by the name of Melchizedek.

But the "Traditionalists" don't accept the trans-saturnan planets to be of any influence at all and the Part of Catastrophe is a part derived from the formula Asc. + Uranus - Sun, because they claim that Uranus is not visible to the "naked eye"...but they are wrong, it is too visible. Just not one that is easily visible, yet it can be observed where cloud cover, air pollution, and artificial light is not so dominate. yet, then again, Parts/Lots derived from Neptune and Pluto are definitely of effect also, as I have demonstrated numerous times.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
The entire notion that because a Planet is not visible to the naked eye is, in effect, conceding that astrology is all just a product of ones own mind, that is to say that it is only psychological in affect.
The old absurdity of "What I can't see can't hurt me".

Then what of the blind? What if it is someday discovered that most of mankind has inherited a regressive gene that hasn't allowed us the full capabilities of our eyesight, and it is genetically restored to as it was meant to be?

Think about that.
 

AlterAntiscia

Premium Member
I presently hold to the belief that the orb is within one degree, They don't partake in transit, they are permanently affixed to the point they are calculated to be at, so they have no orb of influence themselves, it is the transiting luminaries, the planets, and possibly those asteroids that do have effective influence, that does affect them.
Within the natal chart, I see around max 4 orbs longitude for conjunction between “parts” but other factors may change this

I’d say 1 orb is bit too “tight” considering parts can be parallel or contra parallel in declination & judging them solely by longitude is unfair. 
As for Transits, I notice applying / exact orb aspects to lots can produce some powerful events in the native’s life especially so if the part is powerful like being aspected by one of it’s own rulers.
The lots don’t transit but some of the lots of event in synastry may be surprising to you.

Jupiter is the planet used in determining the Lot of Victory and Saturn for that of Nemesis.
Perhaps you're under the false impression that nemesis is of the same definition as adversary? It at times is used in such a connotation but isn't the same by definition.

Perhaps my two examples I gave for the Lot of Nemesis gave you the impression that "travel" is always associated with it, because their associated Sabian Symbols are about travel? I hope not and if so I suppose I shall have to be more cautious of what I use in any examples in the future...but I'd like to think that you are not so naive? I'm not saying, or even implying that you are... I'm just "saying"... I hope, ya know...?

Nemesis is the lot which signifies “the manner of death or the way in which a native will or should die” according to bonatti. Not sure what you are getting at with your “false impression” comment. 
I associated travel with Victory as is is the lot of Jupiter.
 
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leomoon

Well-known member
Within the natal chart, I see around max 4 orbs longitude for conjunction between “parts” but other factors may change this

I’d say 1 orb is bit too “tight” considering parts can be parallel or contra parallel in declination & judging them solely by longitude is unfair. 
As for Transits, I notice applying / exact orb aspects to lots can produce some powerful events in the native’s life especially so if the part is powerful like being aspected by one of it’s own rulers.
The lots don’t transit but some of the lots of event in synastry may be surprising to you.



Nemesis is the lot which signifies “the manner of death or the way in which a native will or should die” according to Mashallah. 
I associated travel with Victory as is is the lot of Jupiter.


I hope you post some more for us AlterAntiscia on the various Lots. :wink: I'm not as up to date as you are on them, but find them fascinating and didn't know people are using a beyond one deg. orb in conjunctions.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Within the natal chart, I see around max 4 orbs longitude for conjunction between “parts” but other factors may change this

I’d say 1 orb is bit too “tight” considering parts can be parallel or contra parallel in declination & judging them solely by longitude is unfair. 
As for Transits, I notice applying / exact orb aspects to lots can produce some powerful events in the native’s life especially so if the part is powerful like being aspected by one of it’s own rulers.
The lots don’t transit but some of the lots of event in synastry may be surprising to you.



Nemesis is the lot which signifies “the manner of death or the way in which a native will or should die” according to bonatti. Not sure what you are getting at with your “false impression” comment. 
I associated travel with Victory as is is the lot of Jupiter.

The medieval astrologers were just emerging from the "Dark Ages", and they were still in "the Dark". Astrological Parts are for the most part based on the Asc. and thus the accuracy of having the exact birth time and location is tantamount to being successful in interpreting them. The Asc. has to be placed as accurately as it should be. That kind of accuracy wasn't even, but very rarely available, until the mid 20th century.

When you read the Sabian Symbols for the Parts, these Hermetic Lots I've used for examples that are taken from the natal chart for the Nazarene, and if you know the story of the Nazarene, then you should realize that Astrological Parts are symbolically active.

It's more apparent in the charts of those that are "World Servers".

The Lot of Nemesis aka the Part of Sudden Advancement is that which is the nemesis to ones path towards the completion of their spiritual dharma.

That of the Lot of Victory, the same.

That's what astrology is truly about. God set this all up for the highest of goals. The mundane is of little, if any concern to our God. Don't trivialize it.
 

AlterAntiscia

Premium Member
The medieval astrologers were just emerging from the "Dark Ages", and they were still in "the Dark". Astrological Parts are for the most part based on the Asc. and thus the accuracy of having the exact birth time and location is tantamount to being successful in interpreting them. The Asc. has to be placed as accurately as it should be. That kind of accuracy wasn't even, but very rarely available, until the mid 20th century.

When you read the Sabian Symbols for the Parts, these Hermetic Lots I've used for examples that are taken from the natal chart for the Nazarene, and if you know the story of the Nazarene, then you should realize that Astrological Parts are symbolically active.

It's more apparent in the charts of those that are "World Servers".

The Lot of Nemesis aka the Part of Sudden Advancement is that which is the nemesis to ones path towards the completion of their spiritual dharma.

That of the Lot of Victory, the same.

That's what astrology is truly about. God set this all up for the highest of goals. The mundane is of little, if any concern to our God. Don't trivialize it.

The bit about Nemesis representing manner of death can be found in Bonatti on Lots: Treatise 8.2 , it would greatly benefit you to read it & get some hands on research with the lot so you can achieve a clearer understanding of how to use the lot in nativities

I hope you post some more for us AlterAntiscia on the various Lots. :wink: I'm not as up to date as you are on them, but find them fascinating and didn't know people are using a beyond one deg. orb in conjunctions.
I’m happy to share leomoon :smile:

Lots aka Arabic Parts cannot have '...orbs...' :smile:

however THEIR PLANETARY RULERS may have orbs


post the charts


.

I don’t mind sharing a chart with you. 

This native passed in a car accident on their 15th year when the sun progresses to the 8th Lord, the Ascendant progresses to Nemesis, the MC progresses Fatality & transiting sun/mercury are conjunct Accident.

Notice the grand trine between the Ascendant, Affliction & Accident.
Notice MA/SA & MA/UR in the 1st house and their conjunctions with Nemesis/Victory. 
Notice Asc/Sun = Short Journeys

The ascendant lord, Saturn Is parallel in declination to the part of Fatality. Fortune/ Saturn & Neptune/Pluto midpoints = Fatality

It appears her fate was already foretold in some way just based off the natal with lots included and Fatality was a really important one here
 

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leomoon

Well-known member
Thanks "lots" (no pun intended) :biggrin:


I'll try and check it out tomorrow.


REF -
The bit about Nemesis representing manner of death can be found in Bonatti on Lots: Treatise 8.2 , it would greatly benefit you to read it & get some hands on research with the lot so you can achieve a clearer understanding of how to use the lot in nativities
I have it in pdf form on my computer so I just need to get into that file.


Did the ancients also recommend progressions that far back? I'd not have thought of checking a progressed chart position with the lots.



Thanks again!!! I'll likely come back after I read the chart.
 

AlterAntiscia

Premium Member
Thanks "lots" (no pun intended) :biggrin:


I'll try and check it out tomorrow.


REF -
I have it in pdf form on my computer so I just need to get into that file.


Did the ancients also recommend progressions that far back? I'd not have thought of checking a progressed chart position with the lots.



Thanks again!!! I'll likely come back after I read the chart.

I believe Valens does briefly touch upon secondary progressions in anthologies
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
I know all about Bonatti. He wrote of what He observed astrologers utilizing. He never gave a demonstration to any of what He wrote about. He was merely a scribe.
To each their own. I'm convinced in what I have ... and I've given demonstration of it... btw, have you read my reply to your question in the Point of Trauma thread?
If you've replied to this one then I would assume you have readit by now.
Whaddya think?
 
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