Was astrology created to benefit people?

wilsontc

Staff member
All,

Have you ever thought about where astrology CAME from? It clearly doesn't CAUSE anything to happen...it just indicates when things happen for PEOPLE. While there have been some attempts to create a "pet astrology" or other non-human astrology, the astrological symbolism simply doesn't match up with animals (e.g., no animals are going through a "Saturn return"). Also, astrology ONLY works on Earth: move anywhere else in the solar system and, while you will continue to experience your normal human cycles of (for example) the thirty-something years, Saturn (the planet whose return indicates on Earth the "thirty-something years") won't be in the right place to indicate anything from wherever in the solar system you are. This suggests that astrology was CREATED to be a SIGN for PEOPLE on EARTH so that they could understand both themselves and the other people around them better...sooooo WHO created it?

Wondering,

Tim
 

moonkat235

Well-known member
I was wondering last night, what exactly is astrology, if you had to define. How does it operate? Why does it work and what does that imply for what we humans are? (Edit: I'm asking these questions on this thread, because I think they're relevant when theorizing the intention behind astrology's creation. My thought being, if we can agree on what astrology is, then we have a better foundation to extrapolate the 'why' of its creation and then the 'who', etc.)

For instance, I was thinking of Michael Jackson and his natal chart. Even though he's dead, I figure you can still look at his progressions and transits to his natal. I haven't actually looked into it, but I figure something interesting must've been going on when the HBO documentary, 'Leaving Neverland' came out recently.

This article on the astrodienst website was interesting too:

https://www.astro.com/astrology/tma_article161208_e.htm
 
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moonkat235

Well-known member
Also, Tim, if I take your belief that astrology doesn't cause anything to happen, but is rather an indication of what will happen (does everyone agree on this?) then I figure astrology is like some sort of measuring stick/system. At least, that's the analogy I draw from it. Would you agree?

I guess if we want to know who created the system and the intention behind it's creation, we should probably consider asking what exactly it measures. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but does anyone have thoughts, theories, or answers on that?
 

petosiris

Banned
''The science of astrology was developed in, most probably, the late 2nd or early 1st century B.C., as a mean to predict, from horoscopic themata draw up for the moment of an individual's birth (or conception), the fate of that native. This form of astrology, called genethlialogy, is rooted in Aristotelean physics and Hellenistic astronomy, but also borrowed much from Mesopotamia and some elements from Egypt as well as developing many theories of its own... All of these types of astrology depend on the notion that the planets, in their eternal rotations about the earth, transmit motion (change) to the four elements and to the assemblages of elements, animate or inanimate, in the sublunar world. This theory is completely different from that of celestial omens, in which the gods, whose physical manifestations are the constellations and planets send messages concerning their intentions regarding kings and countries by means of celestial phenomena.'' - Pingree, D. E. (1997). From astral omens to astrology: from Babylon to Bīkāner.

Most of astrology was developed with a scientific or more correctly a naturalistic inclination. In that sense, it doesn't need meaning, other than utility, or belief, for it operates regardless.
 

petosiris

Banned
it just indicates when things happen for PEOPLE

Astrology today has that because there are few people starving and many people live in urban settings, but traditional astrology used to have some focus on animals in natal and mundane because it was important as much as crops. And also life is of first importance before anything else, so I would question the assumption it does not affect them in some way. Though if your astrology revolves around character analysis, I could see why there would be only little importance in using it.

Also, astrology ONLY works on Earth: move anywhere else in the solar system and, while you will continue to experience your normal human cycles of (for example) the thirty-something years, Saturn (the planet whose return indicates on Earth the "thirty-something years") won't be in the right place to indicate anything from wherever in the solar system you are.

You would need a different topocentric astrology for people and objects in space. People already change their approach to great length if they use the angles and zodiac of the current location for a solar return for example.
 

Mohammad690

Well-known member
Hi everyone,

To my limited understanding, most if not all occult knowledge, including astrology, comes from Hermes, the legendary figure who is knows as Idris the prophet in Islamic tradition. He is one of the prophets, that like Jesus, did not die and ascended to heaven directly.

The way I understand the world, everything is interconnected. And the microcosm match the macrocosm perfectly. So when we say Saturn does evil, we mean that its position coincides with evil happenings.

Truly,
Mohammad
 

Opal

Well-known member
All,

Have you ever thought about where astrology CAME from?

Yes. I see astrology as a gift from the Cosmos.

It clearly doesn't CAUSE anything to happen...it just indicates when things happen for PEOPLE. While there have been some attempts to create a "pet astrology" or other non-human astrology, the astrological symbolism simply doesn't match up with animals (e.g., no animals are going through a "Saturn return").

Evangeline Adams was given a chart to read. The person who gave it to her was not a believer in the craft. He put a chart of a dog for her to read. She did her reading. He laughed and told her that she had read the chart of a dog. She asked of the life of the dog. Her reading was accurate.

I agree with Evangeline. Astrology works on all.

Also, astrology ONLY works on Earth: move anywhere else in the solar system and, while you will continue to experience your normal human cycles of (for example) the thirty-something years, Saturn (the planet whose return indicates on Earth the "thirty-something years") won't be in the right place to indicate anything from wherever in the solar system you are.

I disagree. If we were on Mars, let's say we were to colonize Mars. Now the people born on Mars would have a Earth Sign. The Cosmos is still going to be ticking. The ephemeris would have to depict the change of location. But the cosmos would still affect the people born on Mars. They would still have a natal chart. Just with a different focal point.

This suggests that astrology was CREATED to be a SIGN for PEOPLE on EARTH so that they could understand both themselves and the other people around them better...sooooo WHO created it?

Wondering,

Tim


The Cosmos, also referred to as God.

Astrology works on all Earth creatures. The ant, the dolphin, the fly.
 

Opal

Well-known member
I was wondering last night, what exactly is astrology, if you had to define. How does it operate? Why does it work and what does that imply for what we humans are? (Edit: I'm asking these questions on this thread, because I think they're relevant when theorizing the intention behind astrology's creation. My thought being, if we can agree on what astrology is, then we have a better foundation to extrapolate the 'why' of its creation and then the 'who', etc.)

For instance, I was thinking of Michael Jackson and his natal chart. Even though he's dead, I figure you can still look at his progressions and transits to his natal. I haven't actually looked into it, but I figure something interesting must've been going on when the HBO documentary, 'Leaving Neverland' came out recently.

This article on the astrodienst website was interesting too:

https://www.astro.com/astrology/tma_article161208_e.htm

I agree, transits, can reach past a person's existence on earth.
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
All,

Have you ever thought about where astrology CAME from? It clearly doesn't CAUSE anything to happen...it just indicates when things happen for PEOPLE. While there have been some attempts to create a "pet astrology" or other non-human astrology, the astrological symbolism simply doesn't match up with animals (e.g., no animals are going through a "Saturn return"). Also, astrology ONLY works on Earth: move anywhere else in the solar system and, while you will continue to experience your normal human cycles of (for example) the thirty-something years, Saturn (the planet whose return indicates on Earth the "thirty-something years") won't be in the right place to indicate anything from wherever in the solar system you are. This suggests that astrology was CREATED to be a SIGN for PEOPLE on EARTH so that they could understand both themselves and the other people around them better...sooooo WHO created it?

Wondering,

Tim

Hi Tim,

That would be the Sumerians or their fore-runners.

The Hebrew texts say Earth was divided in the day of Peleg.

That's taken from an older Sumerian story.

In that story, the gods were arguing over who was in charge, so the three chief gods An, Enlil and Ea (Anu, Enlil and Enki in Akkadian language) drew lots.

An got the heavens, Enlil got Europe and Enki got Africa.

Then the constellations were created to reflect this new order or scheme.

You have the Way of An which consists of the 12 constellations we know between 30 deg N and 30 deg S, then the Way of Enlil which was 12 constellations of stars between 30 deg N and 90 deg N and then the Way of Enki which was 12 constellations between 30 deg S and 90 deg S.

The stars in the constellations in the Way of Enlil are not an issue, but the stars in the constellations in the Way of Enki are problematic.

Sumer was located in south central Iraq, so they could see the stars that make up the constellations in the Way of Enlil, but not the stars in the constellations that make up the Way of Enki.

To see those stars, the Sumerians or somebody would have to travel below latitude 30 deg S and for some stars, they can only be seen from the tip of South Africa.

That tells us somebody was traveling to and from South Africa.

The interesting thing about these lists of constellations found in Sumer, Akkad, Babylon and the Assyrian king Ashurbanipal's library is that they all start with Pisces.

Why?

Was the Zodiac created during the Age of Pisces? That would have been 27,000 years ago circa 25,000 BCE.

We know the Sumerians knew Earth was a sphere and were aware of the phenomenon of precession, which means you have to believe Earth is a sphere. It's in all their art: Gemini, Taurus, Aries.

Recent excavations at Jericho show it was inhabited 9,500 years ago circa 7,500 BCE. It was apparently a trading outpost with just a dozen buildings or so.

The walls of those buildings have frescoes of crabs painted on them. That would be the Age of Cancer which just happens to be 9,000 years ago, so we know the Zodiac is at least 9,000 years old.

But, the Sumerians claim the Deluge (not the idiotic "Flood") happened during the Age of Leo, and more than that, claim a sphinx was built in the land of Magan (Egypt) to memorialize the event.

The sphinx had the face of a lion (for Leo) and since they were built in pairs, I suspect one might have been on the Saudi Peninsula by the Red Sea or on the west coast of India which was the domain of the goddess Ianna (Asherah in Canaanite and the wife of Yahweh).

That proves the Zodiac existed at least 12,000 years ago.

But if you created it during the Age of Leo and you know how to calculate backward to determine the other Ages, why would you stop at Pisces?

Why would you not start your list with Leo?

If the Zodiac was not created 27,000 years ago, then it would some very, very important event took place that we know nothing about yet happened at that time, and that's why the lists always start with Pisces.

Initially, astrology applied to kingdoms, then later to kings, then to social elites and then the common man.

We know the common man was consulting astrologers during the Amorite Period. The Amorites are the people everyone erroneously calls "Babylonians." After the Amorites came the Assyrians and then the people who ousted the Amorites returned with the 2nd Babylonian Empire. I'm not really sure who those people were, except that they were very cosmopolitan. Lots of different ethnic groups who had one thing in common: language.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Hi, Tim-- I think astrology was created to benefit people, although not necessarily in ways that we would consider important today.

Basically the foundational problem that people want to solve is coping with risk or uncertainty, and ideally minimizing it. Any predictive method that shows promise could be beneficial.

If I repeat the old weather predictions, "Red sky at morning....." or "Evening red and morning gray....." and this works out most time, that is truly helpful to sailors, travelers, and farmers. It doesn't always work out, but it works out a lot.

Similarly if I can make an accurate astrological predictions or character analysis, these have all kinds of potential benefits in reducing risk.

By the same token, astrology can do a lot of harm with bad readings.

Some good books on the history of early astrology are by Nicolas Camption, Tamsyn Barton, Chris Brennan, and Francesca Rochberg. The Skyscript website is a goldmine of articles on medieval and Renaissance astrology in Europe.

1. To the ancient Mesopotamians who invented astrology, the planets were gods or omens from the gods. In their mental universe, droughts, wars, rulerships, &c were ruled by gods. So knowing what the gods wanted or had in store for people would be tremendously beneficial. The response might be anything from animal sacrifices to the relevant god to gearing up for battle with an enemy.

They did not use horoscopes, however, which were a Hellenistic invention: nobody quite knows the inventor but there are different theories.

2. The Greeks and Romans did not have quite the same belief that planets were gods, but most believed in their pantheons. Many of them adopted the Stoic philosophy, that learning what was in store for you enabled you to face it with the prized traits of, well, stoicism, and courage. You could also avoid a bad marriage, or learn if your children would survive (in an era of high infant mortality.)

3. Onward through time, astrology's predictive claims and character analyses seemed increasingly useful. Take medical astrology in the centuries prior to modern public health, good nutrition, and medicine. What was the disease, what were its causes and cures?

The problem is that too often, astrology's accuracy has been poor. It has even been used to harm people. So overall, its benefits have been mixed.
 
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Kite

Well-known member
All,

Have you ever thought about where astrology CAME from? It clearly doesn't CAUSE anything to happen...it just indicates when things happen for PEOPLE. While there have been some attempts to create a "pet astrology" or other non-human astrology, the astrological symbolism simply doesn't match up with animals (e.g., no animals are going through a "Saturn return"). Also, astrology ONLY works on Earth: move anywhere else in the solar system and, while you will continue to experience your normal human cycles of (for example) the thirty-something years, Saturn (the planet whose return indicates on Earth the "thirty-something years") won't be in the right place to indicate anything from wherever in the solar system you are. This suggests that astrology was CREATED to be a SIGN for PEOPLE on EARTH so that they could understand both themselves and the other people around them better...sooooo WHO created it?

Wondering,

Tim

Who created it or who read it? We're told that God created the stars and the planets in the Genesis. In the Sefer Yetzirah we're told that God created the universe with text, number and speech. Who then was able to interpret the "signs" of our times -- as laid out to cycle us through our allotted lifetimes.

Astrology is so nature driven that we have to understand the astronomical and seasonal constructs to truly make sense of the system. It seems to have been organically derived through observation and mathematical gymnastics that I'm certainly in awe of. My guess is that much of what the ancients invented came from the dream state or deep meditation. It existed on its own and then brought into our normative reality not unlike young Mozart channeling a complete symphony into existence.

What I wonder about is if there are atheist astrologers out there. If so, what is the philosophical basis that they operate from.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Who created it or who read it? We're told that God created the stars and the planets in the Genesis. In the Sefer Yetzirah we're told that God created the universe with text, number and speech. Who then was able to interpret the "signs" of our times -- as laid out to cycle us through our allotted lifetimes.

Astrology is so nature driven that we have to understand the astronomical and seasonal constructs to truly make sense of the system. It seems to have been organically derived through observation and mathematical gymnastics that I'm certainly in awe of. My guess is that much of what the ancients invented came from the dream state or deep meditation. It existed on its own and then brought into our normative reality not unlike young Mozart channeling a complete symphony into existence.

What I wonder about is if there are atheist astrologers out there. If so, what is the philosophical basis that they operate from.

Psychedelic mushrooms and rye ergot as the altered state enablers?
 
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