Vindemiatrix and fixed stars in relationship horary

unteruber

Well-known member
Friends,

Following is a relationship horary that I casted on the 16th Sept 2013, 5.58 AM, Birmingham, UK. The questied is someone whom I have certain feelings for and who I think reciprocates them to some extent - although we both are quite cautious. I am particularly wary of falling for some damsel in distress since she has recently broken up with her boyfriend (who is a 19 year old criminal, she is a 28 year old academic).

In my attempt to get out of this frustrating state I asked - "where are we going?" (as in - is there any future where we will be in a relationship?)

The chart is radical (even with the Bonatti's criteria - Mercury is the planetary hour and as well as L1). No strictures have been violated.

L1 is Mercury, L7 Jupiter in the 10th house. Moon my co-signifactor in Aquarius H5. Sun (general significator of men) belongs to me, Venus is her co-signifactor.

L1 aspects L7 with a square - things might work out but effort will be required. Also L1 is intercepted by Mars before the square with L7 is perfected. If we deem a Leo Mars malefic then this will definitely worsen the square aspect. [not sure who the H11 Mars is?]

L1 and L7 are in mutual reception by term [much weaker than exaltation or triplicity but better than nothing, right?].

Although Jupiter is separating from Saturn (which might represent her ex?), I am interested Mars which has mutual reception with Jupiter by triplicity. I am not sure what Mars might represent in this?

Let's look at the moon, it's sitting in H5 Aquarius (we might start some sort of long-term affair?). And moon is peregrine - doesn't bid well for the future, does it?

Venus is peregrine and in its detriment i.e. sexually she might doing something out of her character? [one-night stands to assauge the hurt caused by the breakup? Although exalted Jupiter in Cancer 10th house indicates someone who is dignified]

Venus (her co-signifactor) does apply to conjunct with Saturn (from which her main signifactor Jupiter separated earlier) - they might "meetup" for old time's sake?

POF is conjunct with moon and is 5th house - an affair?

Overall the situation looks quite murky and not exactly positive.

And here comes the kicker - this is the first time I have come across Vindemiatrix, a fixed star, in a relationship horary, which in this case is closely conjunct with L1 (Mercury) ( 0 degree 58 min) [Vindemiatrix was at 10 deg 7 min Lib, whereas L1 Mercury is at 11 degree 6 min] . As the learned readership of this forum would know that Vindemiatrix is regarded as unfortunate (it's nick name the Widowmaker spells this quite clearly). I checked three Horary books that I have access to and each cautions specifically against Vindemiatrix in relationship horary.

And with this I think the answer has to be that there is not much chance of a relationship between the querent and the questied.

It will be a great learning experience if you can give us your delineation considering all these factors, specially the fixed star Vindemiatrix (and other fixed stars).

Thanks!
 

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wca

Well-known member
L1 is Mercury, L7 Jupiter in the 10th house. Moon my co-signifactor in Aquarius H5. Sun (general significator of men) belongs to me, Venus is her co-signifactor.

your significator is Mercury, 11º Libra in 2nd. Hers is Jupiter at 16º Cancer in the 11th. Moon is co-significator of the situation, of the question, not just to you as querent. don't worry about Sun and Venus. Sun rules men generally, Venus women generally, not the two of you specifically. in this chart Sun would rule what's related to the 12th, as Leo is on the cusp. Venus would rule 2nd and 9th house matters in this chart, with Libra and Taurus on the cusps of those houses, respectively.

L1 aspects L7 with a square - things might work out but effort will be required. Also L1 is intercepted by Mars before the square with L7 is perfected. If we deem a Leo Mars malefic then this will definitely worsen the square aspect. [not sure who the H11 Mars is?]

squares without reception indicate contact, but nothing more necessarily. Bonatti says that a square without reception "comes only be demand, and diligence and vehemence and great effort and persistence." and honestly, if there's prohibition by another planet, especially a malefic, we would judge that there is an intervening presence. could be a friend, given Mars' position in the 11th, or a neighbor (Mars rules 3rd). notice too that Mars rules the 8th, so there's going to be an unfortunate presence inserted into the situation.

L1 and L7 are in mutual reception by term [much weaker than exaltation or triplicity but better than nothing, right?].

reception through minor dignities pretty much is nothing, unless theres 2 or more minor dignities in reception (triplicity, term, face).

Although Jupiter is separating from Saturn (which might represent her ex?), I am interested Mars which has mutual reception with Jupiter by triplicity. I am not sure what Mars might represent in this?

there must be an aspect for there to be reception. right now Mars and Jupiter do not behold one another, and there is no connection without a third, supporting planet.

Let's look at the moon, it's sitting in H5 Aquarius (we might start some sort of long-term affair?). And moon is peregrine - doesn't bid well for the future, does it?

I think there's more to be said that the Moon is peregrine and in the sign of the out-of-sect malefic. Moon moves from square Saturn to sextile Uranus, then oppose Mars. this is a great example of besiegement -- nothing positive to draw out of this Moon, fixed sign or otherwise.

Venus is peregrine and in its detriment i.e. sexually she might doing something out of her character? [one-night stands to assauge the hurt caused by the breakup? Although exalted Jupiter in Cancer 10th house indicates someone who is dignified]

Venus (her co-signifactor) does apply to conjunct with Saturn (from which her main signifactor Jupiter separated earlier) - they might "meetup" for old time's sake?

Venus is leading you down the wrong path here. again, Venus isn't her significator, all the details should come through Jupiter as her significator.

one thing not mentioned above that should be -- there is a massive inequity when looking at Mercury/Jupiter relationships. Mercury is an inferior planet, Jupiter is much weightier and more stable. in this chart your Mercury is dignified only in triplicity, with the drawback of being posited in a succeedent house. Jupiter, on the other hand, is exalted in the 11th. she's very much in a better place, and a significator exalted shows someone who's content and likely uninterested in adjusting current life situation. and why should she? she's exalted.

POF is conjunct with moon and is 5th house - an affair?

not sure I would go there with this. Moon is separating from PoF anyhow.. that aspect is done.

Overall the situation looks quite murky and not exactly positive.

agreed. the answer is "no" all the way around.

And here comes the kicker - this is the first time I have come across Vindemiatrix, a fixed star, in a relationship horary, which in this case is closely conjunct with L1 (Mercury) ( 0 degree 58 min) [Vindemiatrix was at 10 deg 7 min Lib, whereas L1 Mercury is at 11 degree 6 min] . As the learned readership of this forum would know that Vindemiatrix is regarded as unfortunate (it's nick name the Widowmaker spells this quite clearly). I checked three Horary books that I have access to and each cautions specifically against Vindemiatrix in relationship horary.

And with this I think the answer has to be that there is not much chance of a relationship between the querent and the questied.

It will be a great learning experience if you can give us your delineation considering all these factors, specially the fixed star Vindemiatrix (and other fixed stars).

Ebertin says that Vindemiatrix, if "tied up with Mercury.. will lead to nervous irritability." fixed stars add detail, but I think we can pull the headlines from the relative strength of the main significators and their failure to make a clean connect.
 
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Zarathu

Account Closed
WCA gave you a terrific long response.

In my thinking, there is no relationship between the ruler of the ASC and the ruler of the house of the question: so NO

Moon is between malefics: NO

Moon aspects the parts of death, delay, debate: NO

Moon is in the 5th house showing a petering out of the relationship: NO

Moon is in Aquarius, requiring way more time than is available to bring it to a YES, so NO

No point going any further. I agree: NO
 

unteruber

Well-known member
WCA - absolutely brilliant analysis brother, as always... what I find most exciting about your reply is the way it methodically breaks down various steps of a horary reading and provides beginners like myself an invaluable learning opportunity. It goes without saying that one agrees with your delineation.

In the entire chart what bothered/interested me most was Vindemiatrix and how it was sitting right on the L1. Thanks for clarifying this. Frawley and others whom I referred did not present it clearly (or at least to the degree of clarification I was expecting for).

Zarathu - thank you so much for reply dear. It helps a lot to see various perspectives.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
Horary is really not that hard to get a good perspective on, since it works from a whole series of rules. Most of your delineation was what you would do for a natal chart, not for horary. Many people don't know that horary is decidedly different. Astrology is astrology, but horary's rules are rules.

I've synthesized the first 120 of those rules in my horary notebook, starting with the easiest which is Moon Horary, using the writings of modern horary astrologers such as Ivy Goldstein Jacobson, and Olivia Barclay.

I put this into a series of questions and answers, starting with the most important qualifiers first.

Then I just make up the chart on my own software, and start through the questions. When I get to a significant number of Yes's or No's, I stop and make a judgement.

Its not all that hard to do. You just have to be anal enough to spend the time to write them all down and then put them in a structured order. Analysis of natal, predictions, relationship, and career astrology is much more labor intensive and requires a lot more synthesis. But horary seems way more magical, despite the fact that in reality its so much easier to do!
 
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unteruber

Well-known member
I've synthesized the first 120 of those rules in my horary notebook, starting with the easiest which is Moon Horary, using the writings of modern horary astrologers such as Ivy Goldstein Jacobson, and Olivia Barclay.

I put this into a series of questions and answers, starting with the most important qualifiers first.

Then I just make up the chart on my own software, and start through the questions. When I get to a significant number of Yes's or No's, I stop and make a judgement.

This is a proper mathematical algorithm !!!

Zarathu dear, please do share this list of 120 rules with us, it sounds quite invaluable, if you don't mind. We can ask the admins to make it as a permanent sticky post for the learners.

Its not all that hard to do. You just have to be anal enough ....

:wink:

Analysis of natal, predictions, relationship, and career astrology is much more labor intensive and requires a lot more synthesis. But horary seems way more magical, despite the fact that in reality its so much easier to do!

Quite agree...
 

tsmall

Premium Member
:) I can be a bit verbose.

I don't think you were verbose. I think you took the querent through all the steps, and I also appreciate it. This is a learning forum.

unteruber, I didn't look at the chart because wca's delineation was spot on. I do however think that when answering horaries, it is possible to do more (as wca did here) than just answer yes or no.

Horary isn't simply just yes or no, but why, when and how. And that can be as complicated as delineating a house in a natal chart. The easy way is to answer the question yes or no. A true astrologer should be able to read the chart (because it is all there) and aswer the rest.

just my two cents' worth.
 
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