Venus Pluto vs Mars Pluto

The_Sundance_Kid

Well-known member
Which aspect is the more intense?

What happens when a woman with one aspect has to spend a lot of time with a man with the other aspect? Or a man with a man, or woman with a woman?

Who tends to have the upper hand?
 

The_Sundance_Kid

Well-known member
My initial view is that Mars Pluto individuals can dominate or control others and the others are quite aware of this, they can "feel" it. However Venus Pluto can control others without the others being aware of it.

I was also wondering if Mars-Pluto is strongly sexual while Venus-Pluto cares more about the value of the relationship, the "meeting of souls" as it were. So the answer to which is more intense depends upon which of these two things you think is more intense.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
My initial view is that Mars Pluto individuals can dominate or control others and the others are quite aware of this, they can "feel" it. However Venus Pluto can control others without the others being aware of it.

Doesn't mean they like it or will tolerate it for long.


I was also wondering if Mars-Pluto is strongly sexual while Venus-Pluto cares more about the value of the relationship, the "meeting of souls" as it were. So the answer to which is more intense depends upon which of these two things you think is more intense.
Pluto-Mars controls through domination. Whether that is through physical, emotional or mental manipulation is irrelevant. Pluto-Venus controls through love - as in "I love you and this is the best for you". It's still emotional manipulation, but the motivations of the controller are different - one is willful and they know what they want for themselves; the other thinks it is altruistic and they are doing it for you, when it is just selfish. The results are the same.
 

The_Sundance_Kid

Well-known member
Thanks Mdinaz. I'm a Venus Pluto working with two Mars Plutos. All three of us confuse the hell out of each other, not knowing what is going on. People perceive all of us as "laid back" though!

I'm reading "Dynamics of the Unconscious" by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas. It touches on the rage issues that Mars Pluto deals with. I haven't come across anything on Venus Pluto though.

I also quite like this blog for information on Pluto:

http://theastrologyplace.blogspot.co.uk/
 

RisingSag

Well-known member
Someone mentioned that maybe venus/pluto isn't so concerned with sex as the emotions. I think the emotions are almost unbearable sometimes, but the sex is worth it!

I interacted with a pluto/mars and I didn't feel he had the upper hand, but he enjoyed the depth of emotions he stirred up in me, in a power play sort of way.

I have venus opp pluto and he has mars square pluto. I read somewhere that venus/pluto and mars/pluto are counterparts.
 
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Zarathu

Account Closed
You can use the textbook definitions and come up with the more intense combination, but that won't really tell you anything. You could have the Mars in the chart which might normally be intense but in that particular chart would be very weak and very low friction, and you wouldn't see it.

As long as you understand that its the chart that tells not the textbook definition, they you can continue this kind of discussion.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
You can use the textbook definitions and come up with the more intense combination, but that won't really tell you anything. You could have the Mars in the chart which might normally be intense but in that particular chart would be very weak and very low friction, and you wouldn't see it.

As long as you understand that its the chart that tells not the textbook definition, they you can continue this kind of discussion.

Well sure, you could have Mars in cancer square pluto in Libra and the manipulation would be in a subtle, back-stabbing sort of manner. However if Mars were in Taurus square Pluto in Leo, it would likely be far more physical and overt.
 

The_Saturnian

Well-known member
Which aspect is the more intense?

What happens when a woman with one aspect has to spend a lot of time with a man with the other aspect? Or a man with a man, or woman with a woman?

Who tends to have the upper hand?

This depends on what issues are being scrutinized. If we talk of the emotional intensity it would be Venus, but if we talk of intensity in an aggressive capacity Mars would conquer.

In any case (irrespective of gender), where the Mars-Pluto factor comes into play, it will definitely amplify the magnitude of intensity than Venus-Pluto. Let's consider the hard aspects of both (as we know that these exert/increase tension between two planets). Venus-Pluto will create a tension of emotions/in a relationship whereas, Mars-Pluto will almost seem ruthless. (I couldn't think of a more apt adjective to use here ruthless was closest one). From personal experience my natal Sun is conjunct Mars in Leo (orb of 3 degrees) and this squares Pluto in 5th house Scorpio. I've often been told that I look scary and have a very aggressive nature. No matter how much I try to tame the anger, it always gets the better of me. I have this "Jekyll-Hyde" confrontation within of trying to control my anger and yet I can't. I have unleash it at some point. This is very intense!

In conclusion Mars-Pluto emerges victorious over Venus-Pluto when it comes to intensity in general.
 

The_Sundance_Kid

Well-known member
I agree the strength of each planet will depend upon each chart. However I think that sometimes a particular aspect or set of aspects can really come alive in the right setting (e.g. an office where the cosmos gives you no choice but to spend most of your lives together), putting a lot of the other planets in the shade. And in the case at hand the Pluto energy is very strong. I mean the three of us are practically locked in a room by ourselves for 10-14 hours a day...

The particular charts I have in mind all involve conjunctions - a Venus/Pluto in early Scorpio, a Mars/Pluto in early Scorpio and an anaretic Libra Mars conjunct an early Scorpio Pluto. As far as synastry goes, thats a triple whammy of conjunctions.

As far as rulerships go, the Scorpio Venus and Libra Mars are in fall so the Scorpio Mars/Pluto (which belongs to the woman) has the best dignity (other parts of the chart aside).

I was curious about the reference to ruthlessness - do you think Mars-Pluto would find it difficult to be ruthless to Venus-Pluto given that Venus is naturally complementary to Mars - especially given the mutual reception across the two charts with one Mars in Libra and one Venus in Scorpio?

The Mars persons each (separately) enjoy the reactions they get out of me - I'm not a very dramatic person, so even the slightest showing of a reaction is a real victory for them. But conversely each Mars person is quite possessive of me (which is difficult when there are two Mars and one Venus...)

As the Venus person I think I feel the most intimidated (and I am the one that opens up the most), but every now and then when I look at the others it becomes so obvious that they are feeling the same way.

I can't help but feel undercurrents which go way beyond friendship, so maybe there are subconscious control and power games going on. But it is not clear who is playing them or what the end goal even is. It is as if Saturn transiting all of these planets is imprisoning us in a room and telling us to sort our issues out. Assuming Venus is not generally totally dominated by Mars in this situation I think the lesson is for Venus/Pluto and Mars/Pluto to learn to work together as two naturally complementing forces rather than trying to control each other. But that is difficult as most people are not aware of their own Pluto issues.
 
M

may28gemini

I don't think natal Venus-Pluto aspects of one person compared to the Mars-Pluto aspects of another person would really matter enough to create the tone of the relationship. What matters is how the 2 planets between the people connect.

I have Gemini Venus trine Libra Pluto and my ex-husband has Cancer Mars square Libra Pluto. I suppose most people would assume that the difficult aspect between Mars and Pluto for my ex would lead him to view the world as hindering him from doing what he needs/wants to do. Fortunately, that's dead wrong. He always believed the world to be good and that all people have good in them. My Venus trine Pluto would probably give off the impression that I act like love is the be all to end all, but that's also dead wrong. I personally cannot and do not trust people as a general rule.

However, the synastry between Venus and Mars between him and I worked- his Virgo Venus trine my Taurus Mars. Sure, both positions are debilitated for their respective planets but we really did keep it calm and collected during the time we had (which is a long time for most to even consider) and never went to bed angry.
 

m0ney*p0wer*re$pect

Well-known member
Def. The Mars Pluto aspect. They are controlling by all means. The harsher aspects can be the most manipulative making sure things go their way. Also, its not very hard to get under their skin, they are very sesnsitive to their image and ego and if u damage it they say very personal things to hurt u.


I have a Venus and mercury conjunct Pluto but also a Mars square Neptune yet somehow I can fend off negative Mars Pluto ppl. You just have to put them in their place and unfortunately you have to show some form of power over them or you will forever be had at them
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
Well sure, you could have Mars in cancer square pluto in Libra and the manipulation would be in a subtle, back-stabbing sort of manner. However if Mars were in Taurus square Pluto in Leo, it would likely be far more physical and overt.

But not necessarily so. If Mars, and Taurus were very low in power then it wouldn't make a difference.

And the wider, more significant problem, in my opinion, is that choosing aspect to talk about without looking at an actual chart may give the novice or intermediate astrologer a completely false understanding of their chart or any chart. It might easily be that though the aspect in question is textbook powerful, in their own particular chart, its number 5 down the list of important things to address. I used to ask these kinds of questions of my own teacher, the very famous Kt Boehrer, and she would say over and over and over that she would need to see the chart in question. I finally stopped asking without giving ther the chart data in question.

This last position is the more important as far as I'm concerned. While one aspect might appear from a text book situation to be very strong, we might be missing something else that is much more important. Its as if the patient calls the doctor to tell her that her knee hurts and describes the condition of sciatica, but fails to tell the physician that she has 3rd degree burns on 30% of her body.

While the sciatica may be painful, the 3rd degree burns are way more important. Diagnosing the strength of an aspect without looking at the total chart is just like the medical description that I've described above.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
But not necessarily so. If Mars, and Taurus were very low in power then it wouldn't make a difference.

And the wider, more significant problem, in my opinion, is that choosing aspect to talk about without looking at an actual chart may give the novice or intermediate astrologer a completely false understanding of their chart or any chart. It might easily be that though the aspect in question is textbook powerful, in their own particular chart, its number 5 down the list of important things to address. I used to ask these kinds of questions of my own teacher, the very famous Kt Boehrer, and she would say over and over and over that she would need to see the chart in question. I finally stopped asking without giving ther the chart data in question.

This last position is the more important as far as I'm concerned. While one aspect might appear from a text book situation to be very strong, we might be missing something else that is much more important. Its as if the patient calls the doctor to tell her that her knee hurts and describes the condition of sciatica, but fails to tell the physician that she has 3rd degree burns on 30% of her body.

While the sciatica may be painful, the 3rd degree burns are way more important. Diagnosing the strength of an aspect without looking at the total chart is just like the medical description that I've described above.

Of course - and the closeness of the aspect as well as any other aspects to the same planet would mitigate it. I was trying to keep it simple without doing another complete chart analysis and interpretation. I can only analyze so many charts in a day, I still have a day job!
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
Of course - and the closeness of the aspect as well as any other aspects to the same planet would mitigate it. I was trying to keep it simple without doing another complete chart analysis and interpretation. I can only analyze so many charts in a day, I still have a day job!

And I don't since I'm retired!!
 

anjelik

Well-known member
My initial view is that Mars Pluto individuals can dominate or control others and the others are quite aware of this, they can "feel" it. However Venus Pluto can control others without the others being aware of it.

I was also wondering if Mars-Pluto is strongly sexual while Venus-Pluto cares more about the value of the relationship, the "meeting of souls" as it were. So the answer to which is more intense depends upon which of these two things you think is more intense.

I have Venus square Pluto, my boyfriend has Mars square Pluto. I am more sexual than he is, but I also have Mars in the 8th conjunct Pluto. Are there power struggles? Yes, I think so. I think he is used to meeting women that will just jump when he says jump. I definitely have given him a run for his money in that department and let it be known that no one controls me. Our Pluto is both in Libra, so I think there is a balancing aspect to it. His Mars is in Cancer and my Venus in Capricorn so I think the energies work OK and it isn't like an all out war for power. It's more of two people who respect the other for not letting the other push them around. I have dated a ton of men that would do whatever I said (and likewise for him) and you just lose respect for them in the end. As far as intensity goes, I am by far more intense than he is - but I also have Pluto activating a lot more of my chart. It also conjuncts my Saturn and trines Neptune for me. He has easier aspects such as a sextile to his Moon and Neptune.

In our synastry his Pluto in the 7th conjuncts my Mars in the 8th and his Mars in the 5th squares my Pluto in the 9th. If we look at overlays my Pluto is in his 7th house and his in in my 8th. The one thing I really enjoy about our relationship is that I know that as far as depth is concerned we have only hit a little bit beneath the surface and there is so much more to explore within our souls and even sexually. I love Plutonian energy and he has Pluto in his 7th house (which is ruled by Venus) so I think we are both OK with the energy that Mars / Pluto and Venus / Pluto can bring. In our composite we have Pluto (5 degrees into the 8th house) trine Venus (on cusp of 12H at 28 degrees). I hope what I've shared made sense for you!
 
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mdinaz

Well-known member
I have Venus square Pluto, my boyfriend has Mars square Pluto. I am more sexual than he is, but I also have Mars in the 8th conjunct Pluto. Are there power struggles? Yes, I think so. I think he is used to meeting women that will just jump when he says jump. I definitely have given him a run for his money in that department and let it be known that no one controls me. Our Pluto is both in Libra, so I think there is a balancing aspect to it. His Mars is in Cancer and my Venus in Capricorn so I think the energies work OK and it isn't like an all out war for power. It's more of two people who respect the other for not letting the other push them around. I have dated a ton of men that would do whatever I said (and likewise for him) and you just lose respect for them in the end. As far as intensity goes, I am by far more intense than he is - but I also have Pluto activating a lot more of my chart. It also conjuncts my Saturn and trines Neptune for me. He has easier aspects such as a sextile to his Moon and Neptune.

In our synastry his Pluto in the 7th conjuncts my Mars in the 8th and his Mars in the 5th squares my Pluto in the 9th. If we look at overlays my Pluto is in his 7th house and his in in my 8th. The one thing I really enjoy about our relationship is that I know that as far as depth is concerned we have only hit a little bit beneath the surface and there is so much more to explore within our souls and even sexually. I love Plutonian energy and he has Pluto in his 7th house (which is ruled by Venus) so I think we are both OK with the energy that Mars / Pluto and Venus / Pluto can bring. In our composite we have Pluto trine Venus. I hope what I've shared made sense for you!


Jeez. Not sure I'd want to be at your house on board game night. However, I definitely think both Pluto's being in Libra and his Mars in Cancer dampens that energy considerably. If your Pluto's were in Virgo or Scorpio and his Mars in a more aggressive sign, it would be considerably different for you. I have Pluto conjunct Mars in Virgo and being controlled by other people is a less than pleasant experience. I've learned to deal with it considerably but some days if my buttons really get pushed ... not a big fan of Pluto energy.
 

anjelik

Well-known member
Jeez. Not sure I'd want to be at your house on board game night. However, I definitely think both Pluto's being in Libra and his Mars in Cancer dampens that energy considerably. If your Pluto's were in Virgo or Scorpio and his Mars in a more aggressive sign, it would be considerably different for you. I have Pluto conjunct Mars in Virgo and being controlled by other people is a less than pleasant experience. I've learned to deal with it considerably but some days if my buttons really get pushed ... not a big fan of Pluto energy.

HAHAHA oh we aren't that bad. Perhaps I am just weird, but I prefer to have that energy. Anything else to me feels like something is missing. I have gone out with men that I had a ton of trines and sextiles and I didn't feel anything for them. It was like they just lacked any sort of passion. I think it's hilarious that my boyfriend gets angry and yells at other cars when driving. Because then I can do an impression of how ridiculous he is and then he laughs. He likes to call me a "sh*t detective" because I am always investigating things and suspicious that everyone has underlying motives. He clearly doesn't mind it even if sometimes I get a little crazy. Maybe we are both crazy then, I don't know. Our composite Venus / Pluto I think shows that we are both cool with the energy. Luckily that Virgo composite Mars does not make any contact with Pluto :)

Oh Mars in Virgo and Pluto people do not mix... I have dated two men with Mars in Virgo and let me tell you, I KNOW they DO NOT like the Pluto energy. If I've ever been in a hostile relationship these were definitely it. My Pluto squared their Mars... holy smokes. One I dated for a year after college and he could not deal with the fact that he could not control me. The arguments were out of control.. we once argued for FOUR hours. He took my car keys and threw them in the snow and took my cell phone so I was basically trapped. Talk about insanity. I would also just do things that I knew would get him all fired up just for my own amusement. He once was talking about Jenna Jameson to his friend on the phone (how appropriate to talk about **** star with your girlfriend right next to you) so I decided to go to abercrombie.com men's section because I knew this would enrage him that I was looking at ripped men and he literally said to his friend, "let me call you back." and ripped my network card out of my laptop and the four hour brawl began. I don't know at the time why I did it, but I think in retrospect it was definitely a power play. I was basically letting him know that if he thinks he can talk about that in front of me well, you're not getting away with it. I'm not sure if you have ever experienced things to that level.. maybe we were just immature, I don't know. The other guy I dated for only 3 months because I recognized the hostility (as I had gained 7 years of dating experience) and decided that this was not for me.
 
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mdinaz

Well-known member
HAHAHA oh we aren't that bad. Perhaps I am just weird, but I prefer to have that energy. Anything else to me feels like something is missing. I have gone out with men that I had a ton of trines and sextiles and I didn't feel anything for them. It was like they just lacked any sort of passion. I think it's hilarious that my boyfriend gets angry and yells at other cars when driving. Because then I can do an impression of how ridiculous he is and then he laughs. He likes to call me a "sh*t detective" because I am always investigating things and suspicious that everyone has underlying motives. He clearly doesn't mind it even if sometimes I get a little crazy. Maybe we are both crazy then, I don't know.

Oh Mars in Virgo and Pluto people do not mix... I have dated two men with Mars in Virgo and let me tell you, I KNOW they DO NOT like the Pluto energy. If I've ever been in a hostile relationship these were definitely it. My Pluto squared their Mars... holy smokes. One I dated for a year after college and he could not deal with the fact that he could not control me. The arguments were out of control.. we once argued for FOUR hours. He took my car keys and threw them in the snow and took my cell phone so I was basically trapped. Talk about insanity. I would also just do things that I knew would get him all fired up just for my own amusement. He once was talking about Jenna Jameson to his friend on the phone (how appropriate to talk about **** star with your girlfriend right next to you) so I decided to go to abercrombie.com men's section because I knew this would enrage him that I was looking at ripped men and he literally said to his friend, "let me call you back." and ripped my network card out of my laptop and the four hour brawl began. I don't know at the time why I did it, but I think in retrospect it was definitely a power play. I was basically letting him know that if he thinks he can talk about that in front of me well, you're not getting away with it. I'm not sure if you have ever experienced things to that level.. maybe we were just immature, I don't know. The other guy I dated for only 3 months because I recognized the hostility (as I had gained 7 years of dating experience) and decided that this was not for me.

No it was never that bad for me, my conjunction isn't that close (5-6 degrees) but when I was younger it was definitely a problem. Your own strong Pluto energy probably just draws it out even more - and antagonizing someone deliberately doesn't help - :p . Talking about p*rn stars in front of your girlfriend/wife - not classy. Not worth arguing for four hours either, to be sure.

But as I stated, I just think your own strong Pluto energy draws this out of other people, especially if they have Pluto energy too. What it is you don't like is people being just like you - powerful Pluto energy. Your current boyfriend has Mars in Cancer, which is a really weak position for Mars - so it doesn't threaten you. Mars in Virgo is very picky and critical, and with Pluto - threatens you and your power because it reminds you of negative things about yourself. Mars and Pluto in Virgo are also worse because that direction of energy can be very focused and non-emotional, making it even more scary. Accept that you have powerful energies and you still, ultimately, want to be the Alpha dog. I'm cool with that. I'm usually the Alpha dog wherever I go, but I've learned that at home and in relationships, it's occasionally okay to roll over and show my belly.
 

anjelik

Well-known member
No it was never that bad for me, my conjunction isn't that close (5-6 degrees) but when I was younger it was definitely a problem. Your own strong Pluto energy probably just draws it out even more - and antagonizing someone deliberately doesn't help - :p . Talking about p*rn stars in front of your girlfriend/wife - not classy. Not worth arguing for four hours either, to be sure.

But as I stated, I just think your own strong Pluto energy draws this out of other people, especially if they have Pluto energy too. What it is you don't like is people being just like you - powerful Pluto energy. Your current boyfriend has Mars in Cancer, which is a really weak position for Mars - so it doesn't threaten you. Mars in Virgo is very picky and critical, and with Pluto - threatens you and your power because it reminds you of negative things about yourself. Mars and Pluto in Virgo are also worse because that direction of energy can be very focused and non-emotional, making it even more scary. Accept that you have powerful energies and you still, ultimately, want to be the Alpha dog. I'm cool with that. I'm usually the Alpha dog wherever I go, but I've learned that at home and in relationships, it's occasionally okay to roll over and show my belly.

Hmmm that is probably spot on with that. I don't feel the need to exercise dominance, but it's nice to know that I have that card to play. I can roll over and show my belly too.. but I have to really love you to do so.

My mom has Mars in Scorpio square Pluto in Leo. She also has Venus in Aquarius opposite Pluto. She has some crazy fixed energy going on. We had some real battles when I was growing up. I think she has come to realize that she will never be able to control me (my Mars sextile her Pluto), so she focuses on smothering my sister instead (she has no hard Venus / Mars / pluto aspects). My sister's Pluto conjuncts my mom 's Mars and squares her Pluto. Haha thank goodness she was born.. my mom stalks her to death and leaves me alone! :)
 
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