Using the Tropical Zodiac with Vedic Astrology

Shanti

Well-known member
Here is Donald trump's sidereal chart and tropical chart.
In the tropical chart done with vedic techniques I see
many poverty yogas. But in sidereal with vedic techniques
there is massive wealth yogas.

Can someone explain how to use it with vedic techniques for the tropical chart ?
 

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Taurus9

Well-known member
^ That chart comparison above is an interesting tick for sidereal. The other thing about it is that because vedic is whole sign oftentimes the ascendant and therefore houses won't actually change. The planets and aspects won't change much either.

Really we are just debating what planets should be in what sign. One could argue Trump should have planets with positive influence in houses of wealth, but he actually lost a lot of his family's wealth in business so perhaps a closer look at both his life and astrology may not be as obvious as it first seems.

But I think these chart comparisons of famous people could be a good way to start to measure both systems for beginners trying to study the question. More posts like this could be helpful to ultimately decide on what systems work best for what.
 

Shanti

Well-known member
As Donald Trump is highly actual now with inaguration now, so
some comments may be timely about his Dasha. (see chart above).

He won his presidency in the end of his Rahu major period in vimshottari dasha. In the Sidereal chart above we see that Rahu is exalted in taurus conjunct the Sun (presidency) in the 10th house of career. This creates very strong desires/obsessions to shine professionally. This is a Raja yoga.
A Chaya Graha Raja yoga ( Rahu in a kendra with a trikona ruler).
This is also aspected by jupiter from the 2nd house.

Now he just entered his jupiter dasha. Jupiter have connection to the 10th house by it's aspect on the 10th house.
 

Alamits

Well-known member
There are many interesting points in this discussion. Before I give my input I must say Ernst is my most influential of teachers and thus will be coming from that line of thought, however, I do not wish to devolve into needless arguments. We are all united by our passion for astrology. Let's keep that in mind as we continue.
The best way to find which zodiac works best is to learn astrology as thoroughly as you can and test out every technique you know on 100+ charts. Start gathering statistics and decide for yourself which zodiac system works for you. The biggest mistake you make is to take small amounts of knowledge (not making accusations) in astrology and start passing judgements. Put in your work and continue your studies.
With deepest of respects to Robert Hand, I have to disagree with what he said about keeping techniques separate. I'm sure some of you know that some time ago, I forget how long, tropical Aries and sidereal Aries lined up. Knowing this, it is perhaps irresponsible as an astrologer to think that we have to divide these equal (in their roots) systems. In fact, one ought to use techniques from both sides and put them to the test of tropical and sidereal calculations. No one has the answer to this question. Is it therefore possible that there are sidereal dependent techniques? Tropical dependent techniques?
In respect to the ayanamsa discussion, there are two main calculations for ayanamsas that every calculation is based on. These calculations are based on either chitra(lahiri is commonly referred to as chitra paksha(sp?)) or revati. You then have Ernst's calculation of using the galactic center. Which is Mula based. On top of that, you have to decide how you make these calculations. What I mean by this is do you calculate your nakshatra to the celestial equator, to the earth's axis, or back to the ecliptic, like you would a planet? Do you know how far off all of these calculations are between each other? +/- 5 degrees. All of these combinations come out to be a maximum of about 5 degrees off. Of course, this changes your dasas start and finish dates by a few years in some cases.
Want another curve ball? What year calculation do you use? Well, you have a few options. Six to be exact. You can see here that there is yet another lifetime worth of study. I can not express enough that it is important to learn your foundation really well and then start on this quest.
I hope I constructed this long wall of text in a way that will make sense to you all.
-----
Shanti, did you quantify the capacity of the wealth/poverty yogas?
 

sylph

Well-known member
I have that book. I fit my tropical Ascendant appearance almost perfectly. I understand this is a rarity in any zodiac but this doesn't help sidereal. With the charts I have, they are more fitting with their tropical positions as well, even if not perfect.

I know this is from the first page, but I wanted to comment on this as my ASC is the same in both tropical & sidereal (Virgo). Obviously, for me, this makes things easy and I absolutely fit Virgo ASC, but I do have trouble reconciling some other things -- both in mine and others' charts.

My biggest difficulty is with the Moon; like sibylline and her tropical ASC, I fit my sidereal Moon sign (Aries) description almost perfectly, and for the most part I have never resonated with my tropical Moon sign (Taurus). And it's not just me saying this: my grandfather used to call me "rammy" (as in "rambunctious") when I was a kid, and I've always been told by those closest to me that my biggest flaw is impatience. I do wonder, though, if this has more to do with the nakshatra of the Moon rather than the actual sign. The same would then be true for Ascendants and everything else.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I know this is from the first page, but I wanted to comment on this
as my ASC is the same in both tropical & sidereal (Virgo).
Obviously, for me, this makes things easy
and I absolutely fit Virgo ASC,
Traditional astrology would consider that oversimplification
because
the DEGREE of VIRGO ascending
makes a difference

for example
there are three Virgo decans
each Virgo DECAN occupies ten degrees
in which the Tropical chart ascendant may be located

Tropical Virgo has thirty degrees all of which have various associations as well
with either bright, dark, smoky, elevated, pitted, azimene
and so on

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=375725#post375725

According to ancient
up through Renaissance times astrology
the qualities of specific degrees of the ecliptic have an influence
upon the expression of the qualities of planets posited in them
:

-elevated degrees enhance the + qualities of planets and reduce - qualities
-pitted degrees mean that the planet's expression is inhibited, largely blocked, and tend to be neutralized, whether for good or for ill
-azimene degrees make a planet "crippled", so to speak, in its capacity for expression, and tend to bring out - planetary qualities
-bright degrees enhance the capacity for a planet's expression; they are also considered to enhance the + qualities of a planet and to reduce the - qualities of a planet
-dark degrees do the opposite: they inhibit a planet's capacity for expression, and tend to decrease the + qualities of a planet and to increase the - qualities of a planet
-mixed degrees give an "average" quality of capacity for expression to the planet in them; they favor a mixture of both + and - qualities of the planet

In Traditional Western astrology
all of the above degree-qualities are considered as accidental dignities or debilities
elevated degrees and bright degrees were considered accidental dignities,
pitted, azimene and dark degress were considered accidental debilities/detriments

These degree-concepts are unique to Western astrology (they are no longer used in Modernist astrology)-there is a somewhat similar concept in Vedic regarding a special kind of navamsa, but nothing comparable to the above regarding specific degrees.

What about when a degree involves a couple of these degree qualities?
-azimene quality supercedes pitted/elevated and bright/dark
-pitted and elevated quality supercedes bright/dark
and that's before we even consider MONOMOIRIA :smile:
but I do have trouble reconciling some other things -- both in mine and others' charts.

My biggest difficulty is with the Moon; like sibylline and her tropical ASC, I fit my sidereal Moon sign (Aries) description almost perfectly, and for the most part I have never resonated with my tropical Moon sign (Taurus). And it's not just me saying this: my grandfather used to call me "rammy" (as in "rambunctious") when I was a kid, and I've always been told by those closest to me that my biggest flaw is impatience. I do wonder, though, if this has more to do with the nakshatra of the Moon rather than the actual sign. The same would then be true for Ascendants and everything else.
 

sylph

Well-known member
Traditional astrology would consider that oversimplification
because
the DEGREE of VIRGO ascending
makes a difference

for example
there are three Virgo decans
each Virgo DECAN occupies ten degrees
in which the Tropical chart ascendant may be located

Tropical Virgo has thirty degrees all of which have various associations as well
with either bright, dark, smoky, elevated, pitted, azimene
and so on

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=375725#post375725


and that's before we even consider MONOMOIRIA :smile:

Yeah, I was going to say before that I know I am being simplistic in my comparisons but I figured that would be obvious :) The most important point I was trying to make was the relevance of nakshatras.

I've never heard of monomoiria, I will look into all of this!
 

Alamits

Well-known member
To expand on what @jupiter said, vedic astrology has the divisional charts which change a lot when you go from tropical to sidereal calculations. Even the most basic division, the hora chart, which is dividing each house in half, changes between the two and its significance is totally different.
A lot changes in these 16 divisions. For example, in the drekkana(d-3) chart, your (@sylph) Aries moon in sidereal would be in Leo and your tropical Taurus moon would be in Virgo. Totally different energy right? I could be wrong, but from your profile I think that vedic isn't your background so this might not mean a whole lot to you. I just wanted to share the difference it would mean with the vedic system.
 

sylph

Well-known member
To expand on what @jupiter said, vedic astrology has the divisional charts which change a lot when you go from tropical to sidereal calculations. Even the most basic division, the hora chart, which is dividing each house in half, changes between the two and its significance is totally different.
A lot changes in these 16 divisions. For example, in the drekkana(d-3) chart, your (@sylph) Aries moon in sidereal would be in Leo and your tropical Taurus moon would be in Virgo. Totally different energy right? I could be wrong, but from your profile I think that vedic isn't your background so this might not mean a whole lot to you. I just wanted to share the difference it would mean with the vedic system.

Yes, you're right, I have been studying Vedic Astrology and its techniques for a much shorter time than other systems. I am not super confident in my ability to understand the implications of divisional charts just yet, but I do see the importance of them. I get overwhelmed, though, because I am not sure exactly what each divisional chart is supposed to show. For example, some people say that the D9 is about the spouse/marriage and to some extent, the fruits of the life in general. But in other places I've read that the D9 is much more important than that even. However, I've never been able to figure out WHY. I am constantly looking for a thorough explanation of these things, and can't seem to find those answers.
 

Alamits

Well-known member
You pretty much covered what it is. As with any subject, there is lack of clarity from some popular teacher or another and it gets passed around. Yes, the d-9 is considered the most important varga of the rest but beyond what you said is just detailing. You seem to have enough of an understanding of it. A good way to encompass this varga is to say that it is the varga of the ashram (marriage/householder or renunciate) you choose. Venus is the important planet for this varga. Just as with any varga you find the important planet and assess it using (somewhat) standard assessing techniques. Hope this helps :)!
 

sylph

Well-known member
You pretty much covered what it is. As with any subject, there is lack of clarity from some popular teacher or another and it gets passed around. Yes, the d-9 is considered the most important varga of the rest but beyond what you said is just detailing. You seem to have enough of an understanding of it. A good way to encompass this varga is to say that it is the varga of the ashram (marriage/householder or renunciate) you choose. Venus is the important planet for this varga. Just as with any varga you find the important planet and assess it using (somewhat) standard assessing techniques. Hope this helps :)!

Wow, yes, that does help; I guess I've been led to believe that there is "more" to it all, because of how intense and complicated some of the writings on this can be.

I also don't care about marriage, so that's sort of kept me from intellectually embracing the D9 and therefore the other vargas. I never wanted to write them off completely, but I have a really hard time with stuff that I can't relate to lol

Anyway, I've gone off-topic from the original idea of the thread, so I'll just end this by saying thank you!!
 

Shanti

Well-known member
-----Shanti, did you quantify the capacity of the wealth/poverty yogas?

There is several of them. The wealthproducing houses is 2nd,11th,9th, and
5th generally. Jupiter is karaka (significator) for wealth.

In Trumps sidereal chart:

1.)
Jupiter the significator of wealth is placed in 2nd house of income.
(Jupiter is very strong as it is perfectly stationary at the time of Trumps birth. Just some two hours from perfect stationary).

2.)
- 2nd ruler Mercury is placed in 11th house (combination for wealth).
- 11th ruler placed in 11th house.
- 5th house ruler placed in 2nd house



From sidereal Moon:
2nd ruler Jupiter placed in 11th house.
5th ruler Jupiter placed in 11th house
 

muchacho

Well-known member
Yes we did discuss that at the start of the thread, but it appears to not be as simple as that since tropical describes spiritual attributes rather well. I'm inclined to think sidereal works more as a background influence on a larger scale and less in a personal sense. Perhaps because our personal lives are from more of an earth perspective and the rise and fall of civilisations are more macro-level events tapping into more galactic type energies. Again just speculating.
I think it's a calendar issue. At some point they started associating signs with months. JA mentioned that somewhere before. Interestingly, that would be roughly the period of Ptolemy, which coincides with the absolute low point of kali yuga.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
Perhaps the greatest and most respected western astrologer Robert Hand says at his facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/robert.hand.98284/posts/808801582575987

"Second, the whole way that aspects are handled in the two systems is completely different. The system of dignities and rulerships in classical Western astrology (pre-modern) is extremely complex and has no counterpart in Indian astrology. While modern Western astrology is very much simpler (and probably too much simpler than Hindu astrology) Classical Western astrology is every bit as elaborate and has just as much information in it except that the techniques are quite different.
Hand is right about aspects, but he's wrong about the dignity and rulership thingy. It's the other way around.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
There are many interesting points in this discussion. Before I give my input I must say Ernst is my most influential of teachers and thus will be coming from that line of thought, however, I do not wish to devolve into needless arguments. We are all united by our passion for astrology. Let's keep that in mind as we continue.
The best way to find which zodiac works best is to learn astrology as thoroughly as you can and test out every technique you know on 100+ charts. Start gathering statistics and decide for yourself which zodiac system works for you. The biggest mistake you make is to take small amounts of knowledge (not making accusations) in astrology and start passing judgements. Put in your work and continue your studies.
With deepest of respects to Robert Hand, I have to disagree with what he said about keeping techniques separate. I'm sure some of you know that some time ago, I forget how long, tropical Aries and sidereal Aries lined up. Knowing this, it is perhaps irresponsible as an astrologer to think that we have to divide these equal (in their roots) systems. In fact, one ought to use techniques from both sides and put them to the test of tropical and sidereal calculations. No one has the answer to this question. Is it therefore possible that there are sidereal dependent techniques? Tropical dependent techniques?
In respect to the ayanamsa discussion, there are two main calculations for ayanamsas that every calculation is based on. These calculations are based on either chitra(lahiri is commonly referred to as chitra paksha(sp?)) or revati. You then have Ernst's calculation of using the galactic center. Which is Mula based. On top of that, you have to decide how you make these calculations. What I mean by this is do you calculate your nakshatra to the celestial equator, to the earth's axis, or back to the ecliptic, like you would a planet? Do you know how far off all of these calculations are between each other? +/- 5 degrees. All of these combinations come out to be a maximum of about 5 degrees off. Of course, this changes your dasas start and finish dates by a few years in some cases.
Want another curve ball? What year calculation do you use? Well, you have a few options. Six to be exact. You can see here that there is yet another lifetime worth of study. I can not express enough that it is important to learn your foundation really well and then start on this quest.
I hope I constructed this long wall of text in a way that will make sense to you all.
-----
Shanti, did you quantify the capacity of the wealth/poverty yogas?
I don't think a purely statistical approach is ever going to work because it ignores the bigger picture, what astrology is based on, geometry and numerology. And testing it via predictive techniques is the worst possible choice because predictive astrology is about probabilities, not certainties. There's always this wild card called free will which is beyond the scope of maths/statistics. That would be may 2 main concerns about Wilhelm's approach.

To expand on what @jupiter said, vedic astrology has the divisional charts which change a lot when you go from tropical to sidereal calculations. Even the most basic division, the hora chart, which is dividing each house in half, changes between the two and its significance is totally different.
A lot changes in these 16 divisions. For example, in the drekkana(d-3) chart, your (@sylph) Aries moon in sidereal would be in Leo and your tropical Taurus moon would be in Virgo. Totally different energy right? I could be wrong, but from your profile I think that vedic isn't your background so this might not mean a whole lot to you. I just wanted to share the difference it would mean with the vedic system.
Shadbala, bhava bala and ashtakavarga values will also change.
 
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muchacho

Well-known member
I know this is from the first page, but I wanted to comment on this as my ASC is the same in both tropical & sidereal (Virgo). Obviously, for me, this makes things easy and I absolutely fit Virgo ASC, but I do have trouble reconciling some other things -- both in mine and others' charts.

My biggest difficulty is with the Moon; like sibylline and her tropical ASC, I fit my sidereal Moon sign (Aries) description almost perfectly, and for the most part I have never resonated with my tropical Moon sign (Taurus). And it's not just me saying this: my grandfather used to call me "rammy" (as in "rambunctious") when I was a kid, and I've always been told by those closest to me that my biggest flaw is impatience. I do wonder, though, if this has more to do with the nakshatra of the Moon rather than the actual sign. The same would then be true for Ascendants and everything else.
That's why in her book, Hill suggests using the 36 decanates and also recommends considering sect.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
Yes, you're right, I have been studying Vedic Astrology and its techniques for a much shorter time than other systems. I am not super confident in my ability to understand the implications of divisional charts just yet, but I do see the importance of them. I get overwhelmed, though, because I am not sure exactly what each divisional chart is supposed to show. For example, some people say that the D9 is about the spouse/marriage and to some extent, the fruits of the life in general. But in other places I've read that the D9 is much more important than that even. However, I've never been able to figure out WHY. I am constantly looking for a thorough explanation of these things, and can't seem to find those answers.
The vargas play a central role in vedic astrology. The most basic way of working with vargas is to use them for calculating the strength of planets. The D-9 is so special because it is directly connected to the Nakshatras. There are 108 Navamsas (12 x 9 = 108) and 108 (27 x 4 = 108) Nakshatra padas. So one Navamsa is exactly one Nakshatra pada. The tropical vedic astrology approach of using the tropical zodiac for the Sun signs and the sidereal zodiac for the Nakshatras destroys that connection.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I think it's a calendar issue.
At some point they started associating signs with months.
JA mentioned that somewhere before.

Interestingly, that would be roughly the period of Ptolemy,
which coincides with the absolute low point of kali yuga.
Tropical zodiac is derived from Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.)

"...dividing the solar year into twelve equal months
commencing with the vernal equinox
in which each solar (tropical) month is named after one of each of the twelve signs..."

HISTORY OF THE ZODIAC by Dr. Robert Powell currently available on amazon :smile:




The wisdom of the original astrology of the ancients
along with esoteric Gnostic wisdom, was transferred/taken from Babylon, Chaldea, and Egypt
before it was gradually and randomly fused into an incoherent medley.
The random incoherent fusing in question
was perpetuated with the dominating influence of Alexander the Great, King of Macedonia (336 to 323 B.C.)
who was a catalyst for an amalgamation of Egyptian, Babylonian, Greco-Roman thought
into a new cultural expression in the 4th century B.C.
which was continued later by Ptolemy.

Beginning with the death of Alexander in 323 B.C. and continuing around 31 B.C.,
the Hellenistic Period gave birth to a diversity of esoteric philosophies and occult practices
all derived from the Egyptian and Babylonian mysteries.
The cultural peak of this period, from 280 B.C. to 160 B.C., produced Euclid, Hipparchus, Eratosthenes, Dionysus
and many other creative thinkers,
who all expounded upon the cultural influence of Ancient Egypt.
However, although this period carried forth some of the ancient esoteric teachings in a new intellectual language
it also produced a highly intellectualized amalgamate of confused ideas
which reduced Ancient Egypt's esoteric wisdom
into a non-sensible confusion of "men worshiping a pantheon of gods and stars.
"


When a Tropical solar return is calculated and contrasted with a precessed Tropical solar return chart
the effects of precession are noticeable, because
although the actual amount of precession is about 4 seconds of arc per year
timing is everything in Solar Return charts

the older we get, the greater the difference in the houses and angles of the Precession Corrected chart
so that by the time of our 18th birthday
the difference between a solar return calculated with and without precession is six hours:
the difference on our thirty-sixth birthday is twelve hours
and by our seventy second birthday the difference is an entire day.


A geocentric view of a Solar Return depends upon the Earth, Sun and star background
all re-establishing the relationship that existed at birth.

This is not the same as the position in space (relative to our orbit about the Sun)
where the Tropical Zodiac says our Solar Return occurred.

The added distance and time required for the Earth to move past the Tropical Zodiac “return” point
and to reach the “Sidereal” or “Precession-corrected” position
is what makes a Tropical Solar Return chart different from a Sidereal Solar Return chart

Historical Note:

BEFORE COPERNICUS :smile:
850 C.E. – Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Kathīr al-Farghānī (Alfraganus) gives values for the obliquity of the ecliptic
the precessional movement of the apogees of the Sun

1150 – Indian mathematician-astronomer Bhāskara II, in the Siddhanta Shiromani
calculates the longitudes and latitudes of the planets, lunar and solar eclipses, risings and settings
the Moon's lunar crescent, syzygies, and conjunctions of the planets with each other and with the fixed stars
and explains the three problems of diurnal rotation

1150s – Bhaskara calculates the planetary mean motion, ellipses, first visibilities of the planets
the lunar crescent, the seasons, and the length of the Earth's revolution around the Sun to 9 decimal places.

1350 – Ibn al-Shatir anticipates Copernicus
by abandoning the equant of Ptolemy in his calculations of planetary motion
and he provides the first empirical model of lunar motion
which accurately matches observations


 

david starling

Well-known member
Those who are insecure about their own preferred practices and methods sometimes resort to passive-aggressive insults concerning those of others. Such insults are often disguised as "logical" reasons that "prove" the basic premise of a practice and/or method they feel threatened by is seriously flawed.
 
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