USA charts - the ultimate debate


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Thanks for correcting me concerning the name of Independence Hall. The source for all of this is:

The engraving of Independence Hall on the back of the $100 bill is based on a painting from the 1780s by an artist who was a friend of Ben Franklin.

It is a bit difficult to tell from the engraving whether it would read 4:10 pm or 2:23 pm, since both times look about the same. The fact that the 2:23 pm time gives the Tropical longitude of 13 Cancer 13 would argue for that earlier time.


Well-known member
The engraving of Independence Hall on the back of the $100 bill is based on a painting from the 1780s by an artist who was a friend of Ben Franklin.

It is impossible for the engraving to be based on a painting from the 1780s since that tower and its clock didn't exist until 1828, as I mentioned above.

Your linked article contains no attribution for this statement:
"The engraving of Independence Hall on the back of the $100 bill is based on a painting from the 1780s by an artist who was a
friend of Ben Franklin."


New member
Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate - how about Sidereal?

The original had a bell tower and clock. The 1828 was a restoration. Check the history here:
Taking everything you've pointed out, and what I've read, I'll just go with 2:23pm

To correct some of your statements:

- It's Independence Hall, not "Liberty Hall"
- The $100 note with the engraving of Independence Hall wasn't issued until 1928.
- The tower with the clock pictured in the engraving on the reverse of the $100 bill wasn't built until 1828, so it's rather unlikely that a friend or contemporary of Benjamin Franklin (who died in 1790) engraved it. What is the primary historical source for this?
- The Bureau of Engraving and Printing of the U.S. Department of the Treasury states that "The hands of the clock on the hall are set at approximately 4:10. There are no records explaining why that particular time was chosen."
- Jefferson's own writings contradict each other on the time of the adoption of the DoI.
- Charles Thomson, Secretary of the Continental Congress's handwritten notes (which I personally examined via microfiche at the National Archives in Philadelphia) show adoption of the DoI rather early in the order of business for that day.


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Mr stellium

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I remember reading somewhere that the declaration was signed in late afternoon. I would estimate this to be 4 to 8pm. Dr H from RegulusAstrology has rectified the time to 6.17pm with 26 Sag rising. He has provided extensive back up for this time and my analysis of the Summer 2001 solar return (preceding September 11th) also strongly supports this time.
2001 solar return:

Malefics straddle the Asc/Desc axis, Mars is precisely in the contra-antiscion of the Sun. There is a New Moon in what I call "the axis of death" (Moon in 8th, Sun in 8th from Fortune). These are the most obvious indications of a very harmful year for the U.S with bloodshed in the homeland.
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Mr stellium

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The two most recent President's to be assassinated were JFK (1963) and McKinley (1901). Both solar returns (not shown) show Pisces rising, with the Sun in the 5th (5th is 8th from the 10th - death of the king) and Mars/Virgo tightly opposes the Asc in both solar returns. Virgo is the 10th (The King/President) in the 6.17pm chart by whole sign houses.


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The DoI was only signed by two people on July 4 1776 - John Hancock as president of Congress and Charles Thomson, the secretary. The DoI was signed over time - mostly in secret - by the other delegates. The picture we have of all the delegates lining up to sign the DoI is a fabrication.

The actual historical record argues against a time late in the day for the adoption of the DoI - no matter what astrological justification may be provided.


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People might want to take a look at some very preliminary work I'm doing on a possible operant chart for July 1776 that I'm writing up piecemeal on my blog:

I looked at the chart for the Solar eclipse 11 days after July 4th 1776 set for Philadelphia and found it rather interesting. There are two short posts there thus far and it is a work in progress.
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Honestly, I just don't understand the obsession with the 1776 dates. It defies logic, reality, historical fact and astrological universalism.

The phrase "United States" never occurs anywhere in the Declaration of Independence. That is an historical fact.

Jefferson states clearly and in no uncertain terms that the purpose of the Declaration is to create 13 independent countries, with 13 independent governments, economies and currencies.

There isn't a shred of evidence to support claims that one single country was created.

The Sibley Chart is a propaganda chart. A propaganda document. Its intent was to propagandize.

Why? The vast overwhelming majority of colonists, well more than 70% did not support the "revolution."

That's documented fact.

More than 35% were Tories and supported the king. Another 35+% either didn't care or weren't thrilled with either the king or the rebels.

So when the British withdraw, how do you keep the 7 out of 10 Colonists who didn't support you from taking up arms and engaging in another civil war?

Simple. Spread propaganda and disinformation. That's where the Sibley Chart comes in. Look? See? It was divine providence, God's Will, in the heavens, in the stars, the Universe decreed it, it was destiny (or density), the Fickle Finger of Fate, there were two birds in a tree...

... it was meant to be

That's how.

And the funny thing is, the very same people who froth at the mouth over the 1776 dates, then get bent out of shape if you don't do a new chart for Iraq's "new" government with Faisal, and then another chart for Iraq's "new" government with Saddam, and then another chart for Iraq because of the "new" constitution, and new chart for Iran because of its "new" constitution, and another chart for Egypt because of Sadat's "new" government, and another new chart for Egypt because of Mubrark's "new" government, and now almost certainly another new chart for Egypt, and a new chart for Romania because of its new constitution and so on ad nauseum ad infinitum.

But suggest that a new chart should be done for the Articles of Confederation when the 13 separate independent countries actually unite, or for the later Constitution which completely altered the form of government and people look at you like you're a heretic.

People can't have it both ways.

"You have to use a new chart if a country changes governments or constitutions, but that doesn't apply to the US," is not astrology.

That sounds a lot like the nonsense on NeptunCafe and their "Chiron represents the military, but only in the natal chart of the US and for no other country."

How ridiculous is that?

Regardless, whatever the natal chart of the US is, it must have Sagittarius-rising or the Outer Planets don't track to events in US history. Uranus must be in the 1st House during a certain period, because there's no other way to explain the sub-generation running around with $14,000 worth of tattoos and body piercings charged on their parents' credit cards.

Of course, one could always adopt the position that the effects of Pluto don't occur until Pluto changes signs. One web-site does that to justify a Scorpio-rising chart for the US. They claim that when Pluto is transiting a Sign/House it merely lays the groundwork for transformation. The actual transformation takes place after Pluto moves into the next Sign/House. That's quite silly too, but it just goes to show the lengths people will go to justify anything.


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The phrase "United States" never occurs anywhere in the Declaration of Independence. That is an historical fact.


"IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events,...

...We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America..."

Just because the "U" isn't capitalized doesn't mean it wasn't intended.

Think of the intitial settlements as conception, time spent under Britain's rule as gestation, and the Declaration of Independence and the Revolution as the birth - that is seperation from the "mother country" and subsequent chages as stages in development.

As I've commented in other fora, I don't see this as a chart of the U.S. government, but that of the people as a whole.


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By the way, correct spelling is "Sibly" - and I don't think it's a valid, radical chart for historical reasons.


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Okay, so the Sibly Chart, by two experienced astrologers is considered invalid. Then we must see if we can astrologically find/create the real chart. I disagree with Bob that the Sibly Chart was created for propaganda purposes. The Founders believed sincerely that the reason for their plight and their suffering was the oppressive nature of the British Empire, hence they believed in Anarchy(or perhaps given our modern times it's better to say self-governance). However, the 13 colonies could not get together and trust one another. The country's military was still vastly un-developed. You can very well say it wasn't even a country.

Hence, you can say that the Declaration of Independence is no different from a modern day declaration of war. The real birth of the United States came at the ratification of the U.S. Constitution, when for the first time people were officially united under a flag and a banner.

Bob, allow me to give you a different debate for my chart. Of all the outer planets, Pluto is the slowest. Hence, we shouldn't put too much if any value on Pluto. Besides, Scorpio's modern ruler is Mars. Hence, if anything you should be looking at Mars.

In addition, what is the ASC? The Ascendant is our outer appearance, it is how we appear to others. As we've brought territory from Napoleon, fought the Mexican and Civil Wars(we claimed Mexico and then we took back the Federalist States). Isn't that the behavior of a Scorpio? Our gradual ascent to power and our unwillingness to let go.

Religious freedom? Pisces was the birth sign of Jesus Christ, no? In it, we have Saturn. It is also our IC, we hold it dearly to our hearts and we won't let go(Saturn=pull/gravity). Saturn himself is recieving numerous trines from Mercury(Cancer) and Jupiter-Uranus(In Leo). He's also recieving a sextile from Mars(Taurus) Saturn has the strength to clearly hold onto the philosophies to which we hold dear.

Then we have the Grand Air Trine of Pluto, Neptune, Moon.

Air rules over Communication, tales of a foreign nation that speaks of religious freedom and freedom of speech is heard around the world. This nation later on liberates the people. They are happy! Here, is astrological proof of America's foreign success.

The success won't and didn't last, primarily because Pluto and Neptune were retrograde. Neptune squaring Mercury(communication) and Pluto squaring Mars(war).

The ideals which we speak of, did we truly honestly apply them? Perhaps once upon a time, but then came in politics, then corrison, then the America of today. This chart symbolizes our past and our present.

In addition, while we once fought to liberate them, are we fighting for that same purpose now? Much news is made about Afghanistan's Opium. Similarly, Libya is one of the richest crude oil countries in all of Africa.

Saturn is squaring the sun, was there a political movement against religious freedom inside America/the 13 colonies? That's one way(and about the only one at the moment I can think of) intrepreting the chart.

The other one is Saturn-Mars-Neptune are inconjunct, with Neptune as the pinnacle.

If we truly desire peace, and if it's worth fighting for, we need to be clear in that regard. Once we show our true intentions to the world, things will become much easier for Americans. I'd also like to point out how we'd have a Virgo Midheaven with this chart.

Picky, perfectionist, isn't that basically our foreign policy? If it's not good to our standards, we'll change it. Virgo is usually mutable, but the mutable energy is overuled by our fixed energy(6 planets)/Cardinal Energy(4 planets) and Mutable(3 planets).

I was born and raised in this country, and I feel like this fits us alot better. The whole "we stand for justice" thing is lying to ourselves. If we can help others, then that's great. But we always have been a very ambitious country.


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9º Sagittarius: A burning oil well into which men are pouring quantities of water.

Denotes one gifted with a degree of mental richness, but who is somewhat diffusive and irregular. He has some remarkable qualities and good intellectual power, but is weak in application and method. Still he has wisdom, and can direct with magnetic forcefulness and purpose. It is a symbol of Retaining.

Kozminsky Symbols


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Personally the Gemini chart resonates with me with Uranus on the cusp...
this is the chart of invention, of liberation, of electric and innovation...

Just a thought....


Premium Member
There are rules to this, Projected Measure on fixed stars are inaccurate, they look silly on an accurate astronomy programme, 4th July 1776 is subject to star alignments that are electional, based on masonic astrology, which are completely different to what you are debating about.
Parans are used for three points of the day, Sunrise, Sunset, and after approx. 1500, is accurate to astronomy and is the oldest astrology tool....far older than projected or most tools in astrology!

Lets see if you can suspect electional astrology if we move sideways....
Pennsylvania joined the Union on 12 December 1787, and you would expect a midnight clause, Harrisburg become capital after 1812, thus chart is from Philadelphia, link below, look to right when scrolling down:-

If ever you suspect an elected chart, then it is when Jupiter is on an angle...right?
By paran both Jupiter and Alnilam are within 1 degree or 4 minutes of time on the M.C. at midnight, graph below.
Obviously on 4th July 1776, Alnilam , centre star of the Belt of Orion rises with the Sun in Philadelphia by paran....Sirius and Alnilam are THE stars in Esoteric Doctrines.


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Premium Member
Examples can be seen, when Pope Gregory XIII set up the Gregorian Calendar, so lets make it only projected, in fact he used a double feature for as the projected measure by precession become out of synch, late in 1700's by paran that is accurate Sirius still is the star that brings in New Year!
Thus ten days were taken out in 1582, but the big effect is at midnight on the first Gregorian New Year being 1st Jan 1583, obviously the night sky is effected on 1st Jan ten days were taken out.
Set up a chart in Rome for 1st Jan. 1583, SIRIUS CONJUNCT M.C. by PROJECTED MEASURE, midnight!

Indeed the projected measure was still going in 1752, when both America and England changed to the Gregorian Calendar....but they wanted to include Jupiter...very fortunate and didn't happen again on 1st Jan. until 2002!

If you have Parans you will note that you must set up chart for 14 September 1752 at midnight for change in London, you will find Alnilam rising in the East by paran!
Again this effected New Year 1753 (1st Jan. 1753 at midnight in London),
by projected Sirius is still conjunct the M.C., but Jupiter is also conjunct the M.C.....come on guys...electional astrology!
Graph on attachment.

Slowly projected become out of synch towards 1800....soon after 1800 the accurate paran took over, Sirius still brings in New Year on the Prime Meridian!


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Well-known member

Also, who do you think is the most likely astrologer to elect a chart for the DoI?

Just a name is needed. I can do my own primary research here in Philly from many sources.


Premium Member
Hi Frank!,
It's a pleasure to talk to you, but talk to moderators....I don't want any David Icke comments, this is a philosophical and historical research into astrology...perhaps i can give insight, however i will give secret esoteric astrology, it is a area that astrologers can learn from, it applies the world over, sometimes all religions suffer from greed, and it isn't my intention to find a scape goat!
Firstly i will cover all world history from Renaissance/Counter Reformation, i will go back further into time, but i follow Delta T, that can be shown below, not very exact, i have to give margins!

You can left tap several times on graphs below to make larger and clearer, without being a member, it will help understanding Delta T and going back further and further into history!

Have a care, talk to moderators, i don't want this thread over run with David Icke freaks, i have historical evidence that can be applied to secret astrology....but i don't think all secret societies are the same, as we are talking about masons here, don't always connect to "FRINGE MASONRY"...
there is a lot of difference!
I will start on next thread section!