USA charts - the ultimate debate


Well-known member
AquarianEssence said:
Hmmmm. If the first shot was at 4:58:15, only 15 seconds after sunrise, then the ascendant is the exact square to the antiscia (21Cancer05) of US Uranus (8Gem55), ruling the revolution or rebellion 11th house. Now, a square would seek to block the revolution so this is the first hint that England might have taken the first shot. But Mars rules both Aries and Scorpio. Uranus that day was the antiscion of Sun, void of course, a good time to make a sneak attack. Sun represents royalty. Now one thing I read gives Aries to England but it makes much more sense to me to give her Leo because of the original 3 lions on their coat of arms. But regardless if we give her Aries or Leo, England fits the agressor ascendant. Mars disposits Sun and is in Leo, in the house and sign of the king in a degree that shows a secret plan. Pluto also shares this plan, showing the Minitmen knew weeks before of the plan. The 11th cusp is the antiscion of the 8th cusp reminding me of the statement again, "Give me liberty or give me death" One is the sacred mirror of the other, and shows our ascendant and Moon, in my developing opinion.

Moon is calling attention to the country overseas, having just made a contraparallel to Jupiter ruling the 9th. Jupiter rules the number 3, connected to 3 lions. The UK coat of arms has a unicorn on it, by the way, quite fitting Sag too. And the glyph looks a lot like the red cross on the white background of the flag.

There are two closely applying aspects, Mercury opposing Saturn and Moon contraparallel Venus. Saturn is applying back to Mercury too. This would be the militia, 6th confronting the proclaimed authority, Saturn. Mercury is faster and applying first so I'd say he shot first but in self defense, protecting the military equipment. Neither of these feel like they could be the shot though because they are in slow houses. To me if feels like Sun opposing Pluto as the last aspect which could be minutes or seconds as the fastest time possible. This would also support Leo square Scorpio as countries. Sun being square the antiscion of Uranus fits the exlposive shot. So I say England or the crown took the first shot.

Mars trine Sun, agression that is loyal to the throne.

Very interesting! Many thanks, it sheds new light on one of my favorite events. I grew up in Lexington and was thoroughly brainwashed in elementary school; it was always "America's home town" and "the birthplace of liberty." Battle Green still exists as a park.


Well-known member
You're quite welcome. The above freaked out little guy in my first row was supposed to be :58:, that is "colon 58 colon". I'm not sure what happened there, my minute man became the monster man through the secret code. Must be careful what I write. :)


BobZemco said:
There is nothing to recommend for a Gemini rising chart.

I will take on all comers and I will have you all in tears, that's how badly I will beat you down with facts.

The transits of Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto only fit a Sagittarius rising chart and no other.

The 11th House is definitely and undisputably "peace at any price" Libra.

Most of you don't know that the US government paid an annual tribute to the Barbary States for more than 10 years.

Adjusted for 2007 US Dollars, the annual tribute was $132,506,124

The Libra "peace at any price" US government paid annual bribes to Britain, France, Spain, and half a dozen other countries not to attack or harass its naval and merchant vessels.

About 9° Sag fits better.

This is why Gemini rising fails miserably. In a personal chart, the archetype for Uranus opposition Ascendant reflects a change in relationship status, usually separation or divorce, but it can mean other things.

In the mundane chart for countries, Uranus opposition Ascendant often means civil wars.

In the US natal chart that I use, transiting Uranus first opposes the natal Ascendant at the time of the Civil War.

Progressing the chart pre-natal, Uranus opposes the natal Ascendant at the time of the colonial war of independence.

Progressing the chart further still pre-natal, there are civil wars in the colonies in 1692 when transiting Uranus opposes the natal Ascendant as the colony of Carolina has a civil war that results in a split into North and South Carolina, and then the Dominion of New England is overthrown creating what is effectively the colonies of Maine, Vermont, New Hamshire, Rhode Island and Massachusetts.

Progressing the chart beyond 1861 we have a Uranus opposition Ascendant in 1944.

Civil War? Nope.

But the relationship of the US with the world changed as the US became the leader of the world.

I only mention that because in 20 years, Uranus will oppose the US natal Ascendant again.

1944 was different than 1692, 1776 and 1861 because the transits of the other outer planets were different, and you must take them into consideration (as well as the progressed planets).

2028 more closely conforms to 1861 and to a lesser extent, 1776 than 1944. A civil war in the US in 2028 is extremely likely especially in the context of world events and US society.

In 1841, you had a US society that was divided into two camps with irreconcilable differences, a recession started that led to the Great Depression (the first of two in the 1800s) and shortly thereafter the Civil War began.

What exists in 2008, is a US society divided into two camps with irreconcilable differences, a recession coming that will lead to an economic depression, and shortly thereafter a civil war will begin.

Because of a previous military duty assignment, I have in-depth knowledge of US geo-strategy so I'd be happy to explain it, but for those who are interested in learning on their own to understand why the US is in Iraq, I recommend reading the writings of neo-conservatives from the period 1974 to 1978 and then looking at other neo-conservative positon papers especially those written during the Clinton Adminstration which will give you insight into why the illegal wars Clinton supported in Bosnia, Kosovo-Metojiha, Central Asia and Afghanistan were important in shaping the future and paving the way for Bush to invade Iraq.

If the US fails in its current geo-strategy, the US wil fail as a nation, and the US probably will fail because it under-estimated China and because of the genius of the ultimate god-like poet-warrior Vladimr Putin (sorry General Haig).

That failure will certainly cause economic problems that might lead to civil war.

Not really relevant.

So? I have 11 Ptolemaic aspects.

The Lincoln Assassination was a conspiracy, and Pluto figures prominently, as of course you would expect. The Moon is conjunct the Ascendant when Lincoln dies (naturally of course as you would expect).

The Garfield and McKinley Assassinations were not conspiracies, so as you would expect, Pluto does not figure prominently, in fact not at all.

The Kennedy Assasination? Pluto figures prominently. I'm sorry to report that there are only a mere 8 Ptolemaic aspects.

How many from the Sibley Chart? Yeah, that's what I thought. Gag me with a spoon.

My chart boasts 13 Ptolemaic aspects; transit to progressed to natal.

It would probably take me months to look at the minor aspects.

I'm rolling on the floor laughing when someone says they have a partile dodecaquintilespetisextile proving their chart shows 9-11.

How many with the Sibley Chart? What a useless chart.

And that pretty much sums it up. The Sibley Chart is Void, of course.

Jefferson envisioned 13 separate countries, just like each of the 13 colonies envisioned 13 separate countries.

He even said so 3 times in the Declaration of Independence.

No possible way. There isn't a single document that supports the creation of a "United States" prior to 1777. The idea of a "united states" existed only among a few men.

US history books are full of propaganda and lies.

For example, you're told that the "big bad evil godless communist Soviets" put missile in Cuba to threaten the US. That's an outrageous lie.

What you aren't told is that in April 1962, the US put missiles on the Soviet border in Turkey to threaten and frighten the Russian people. The Soviets responded appropriately by putting missiles in Cuba to negate the US threat.

You aren't told the truth, because it would alter your perception of the events.

The same is true for the Berlin Blockade. You're told that the "big bad evil godless communist Soviets" blockaded Berlin for no reason.

What you aren't told is that the German army destroyed cities in Belarus, Ukraine and eastern Russia, and that under international law, the Soviets were authorized war reparations to repair the infrastructure.

You also aren't told that a big brain in the US government thought it would be really cool and funny to cut off the payments of war reparations between Germany and the Soviet Union to keep the Soviets from reparing the badly damaged infrastructure and that the Soviets responded appropriately by blockading access to Berlin.

See, knowing the truth would alter your perception of events.

The same is true for the "Revolutionary War." You aren't told that only 10% of the colonists supported the rebels. The other 90% supported the king or didn't care, because that would alter your perception of the events.

Anyway, I'm running 5 US natal charts based on actual historical events (that most Americans wouldn't be aware of unless they studied US colonial history at university), and I dropped one because it sucked even though it blows the Sibley Chart away.

I now have 4 hits on my best chart. My last hit came when I made a prediction on a web-site on August 10 of events that would occur during the week of September 8.

I need 8 more correct predictions before I can claim I have the "Holy Grail" since that will make me 12 for 12.

I'm probably going to drop two more charts in the next 60 days, even though they blow the Sibley Chart away on transits and progressions for past events, they aren't as strong as my best chart on past events and their predictive capacity isn't all that good. 50-50 is unacceptable for predictions.

Bob, there's a lot here in your comments, some I agree with, and others, I do not. There are many hidden geo-political schemes throughout history that is not well-known, and some that you've mentioned are indeed true. However, the bigger picture is often missed. Just because there are schemes of hidden groups which have always been a part of nations' histories, does not mean that all of them will be successful. Many of these schemes were not successful, as individuals made the difference.

The United States has always been threatened, both from within and without by forces that THINK they know better, many the money-changes and their minons, who have planned and operated wars, insurrections, etc., to achieve their goals. We will always have groups like these around until their time comes to an end ~ and it will too.

Those 10% that supported the colonies won, did they not? This is because of the intervention of indivuduals like Washington, Jefferson and Franklin, individuals who made all the difference in creating a new nation. The 90% that did not support the war was eroded in time, and became a part of this new nation, while those who completely supported the crown were exiled outside of the U.S.

The British invaded New York and remained entrenched for six years. When the British invaded the captial city of Philadelphia, they evacuated after one month. And the new nation was born. There's a reason for that.

The U.S. has a special role in the world, and the coming world transits will be even more challenging for the nation in the next decade; however, this is HOPE and that hope is the people, who represent what makes a country, despite hidden views to the contrary. The transits ahead show battles between those who would supplant life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with a closed-minded, incredibly selfish, and evil intent. The forces of Light and Darkness continue to battle, but in the end, the forces of Light win, and those who represented darkness will have damned their own souls by their actions and words.


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Theo this is an interesting and as always excellent post. I wanted to take some time to respond. In light of some comments that I'm sure were not intended to aim directly at me. But to lump me with a certain group of people. I'm 16 1/2 years old. Born in 1992. I wasn't born in these historic times. I therefore have no real affilation with them. In other words. I'm not "racist". Because, I really only see one race. The Human Race. I was really particularly interested in that powerful Leo that Obama had. And I will be the first one to admit that I jumped the gun. And I apologize for it. But there were some events, I thought that tied to the theory and I thought it warranted discussion. But by no means am I "racist". I've supported Obama for months and there were alot of times where I was sick. Still Sick of this particular election year. Because of how mentally materialistic it's become. How often your tied down by words like "condescending" and so forth. This materialistic world sickens me. Because it holds me(and others) back from expressing themselves. It holds us back from questioning ourselves and therefore, evolving the human soul.

Because I was not exposed much to the materialism. I was able to learn adults. My "superiors". And what I've learned. So to speak is that there's no Black or White. There's just Gray. I believe there's both Light and Darkness in man. And the whole purpose is to mature these two opposites(much like working around a square and turning it into a positive) into the entity. There are certainly times where I've wanted to help others in the past and where I still do. But there are other times where I've used my soul energy to make power plays to get what I wanted. I feel that the key to our existence is to learn that there are times, where we the individual human can get what we want. But ultimately, to take into respect those around us. We can make moves for our own individual lives without hurting others who are doing the same thing, can't we? We can progress further without hurting those not involved can't we? I believe we can.

Cold Fusion

Well-known member
If you go by the July 4, 1776, 5:10 pm LMT, Philadelphia, PA chart, look at the Sabian Symbol for the Ascendant:

12-13 deg Sagittarius

A Widow's Past Is Brought To Light

Then the M.C:

1-2 deg Libra

The Transmutation Of The Fruits Of Past Experiences Into The Seed-Realizations Of The Forever Creative Spirit

That makes sense to me.
Declaration of the Causes and Necessities of taking up Arms: Lois Rodden's site list this chart as "Boyd Declaration of War". the given time on that site is 11:00am, quoting Helen Boyd and Brigadier Firebrace. the 11:05 time was given by the traditional astrologer Alan White, AKA spearbearer. he rectified the chart based on profections, which i don't understand. however the timing of major historical events in US history match up very well with the precessed transits, and he is very well respected amoung his peers.
some news today sparked my interest in this topic again. Abrahams Lincoln's watch was opened and there was an inscription inside about the start of the civil war.

comparing the charts for the first mortar attack on Fort Sumter to the Arms Chart, precess 72'.​

tr. vertex conjunct mars (10') = destined war
tr. mars conjunct uranus (04') = revolutionary war​

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Cold Fusion

Well-known member
I did a little bit of work and made this, I used Clairvision.

This is the July 4 1776 5:10 chart with fixed stars and some sfuff from this very website. I used both constellations of the world and astrology on the web for this:

Be warned though, this isn't very inspiring, and makes the most sense too me, although with the Sun over Sirius, everyone will probably just shrug it off anyways and believe whatever they want too. :eek:

Tropical Zodiac

longitude latitude right ascension declination
Sun Can 13°19'22" 0°00' 06h57'54" 22N48'
Moon Aqu 27°10'16" -1°51' 22h00'09" 14S12'
Mercury Can 24°12'R -3°52' 07h41'33" 17N29'
Venus Can 03°06' 0°06' 06h13'33" 23N32'
Mars Gem 21°23' 0°23' 05h22'20" 23N34'
Jupiter Can 05°56' -0°04' 06h25'51" 23N16'
Saturn Lib 14°48' 2°31' 12h58'25" 03S31'
Uranus Gem 08°55' -0°04' 04h28'53" 21N44'
Neptune Vir 22°25' 1°15' 11h34'08" 04N10'
Pluto Cap 27°33'R -3°07' 20h01'11" 23S43'
North Node Leo 06°35'48"
South Node Aqu 06°35'48"
Mean North Node Leo 07°35'30"
Ascendant Sag 12°21'11"
Midheaven Lib 01°03'20"
(?) Part of Fortune Can 26°12'
(?) Vertex Can 26°09'
(?) East Point Cap 00°53'
(?) Black Moon Vir 19°28'21"
Black Moon Apogee Geo.Leo 27°07'R 1°51' 09h59'54" 14N13'
Black Moon Focus Geo.Leo 27°07'R 1°51' 09h59'54" 14N13'
Black Moon Apogee Bary.Leo 27°07'R 1°51' 09h59'54" 14N13'
Black Moon Focus Bary.Leo 27°06'R 1°51' 09h59'52" 14N13'

(?) Placidus Houses:
ASC:Sag 12°21' 2:Cap 16°04' 3:Aqu 24°53'
IC:Ari 01°03' 5:Ari 29°48' 6:Tau 22°34'
DES:Gem 12°21' 8:Can 16°04' 9:Leo 24°53'
MC:Lib 01°03' 11:Lib 29°48' 12:Sco 22°34'


With Sun: Success in business, occupation connected with metals or other martial affairs, domestic harmony. If rising or culminating, kingly preferment.

Ambition, pride, emotionality, fame, leadership, wealth, fires, drought, danger through impetuosity.


With Mercury: Occult interest, minor position of management under Government, trouble and scandal through opposite sex, favorable for health and gain.

Violence, sudden success then disaster, occult, politics, dissipation


Overconfidence, pride, shamelessness, violence


al Hecka
With Mars: Evil companions, bad habits, sex troubles, and afflictions of a Mars-Venus type.

Honours, wealth, power, greed, aggression


With Jupiter: Social advancement and success, philosophical mind, love of ostentation.

Acute sensitivity, creative imagination, artistic skills, writing, injuries to feet


It gives a subtle mind, shamelessness and loss through friends and companies. [Robson*, p.207.]

On the left shoulder of Bootes has the star gamma, γ, Seginus, a word coming from Latin for corn-crop, and thus meaning a reaper or harvester. In some illustrations Bootes hold a reaping sickle in his hand. To the Arabs it is Al Haris, the Guard or Protector. With its Mercury-Saturn simile it emphasizes the protective nature of Bootes, and ourselves. The planetary connotation also shows up well the potential for writing or public speaking in those who have it in their horoscopes.

Business, astrology, law, loss through friends, deceitful, shameless


It is of the nature of the Moon and Venus, and causes blindness (all nebula have this effect), defective eyesight, strong passions, hindrances and disappointments.


Of the nature of Venus and Mercury. It gives a handsome appearance, neatness, a lovable disposition and beneficence in despair.

North Node

South Asellus-Asellus Australis
Military preferment, blindness, eye trouble, shipwreck, mass murder, horrors, self-willed, uncooperative


Ras Algethi
"The head of the kneeling Hercules", possesses a character of Mars-Venus with a slight blend of Mercury. If in good aspect, it is supposed to give much enjoyment and favors from women. However, if unconnected with helpful planets, it is said to cause much irritation, especially in connection with the female sex. But, by its very Mars nature, Ras Algethi corresponds to boldness and a drive to gain power. [Fixed Stars and Their Interpretation, Elsbeth Ebertin, 1928, p.72.]

If Rising: The star Ras Algethi presages both the good and bad sides of Saturn. When rising it can mean a wise and clever man, but can also indicate an individual trained in various tricks, a liar who deceives with different kinds of plots. Aspects of the horoscope (Ascendant) by Mars when Ras Algethi is rising is indicative of an aggressive personality who always displays an unbridled hostility to those he comes in contact with. When setting the star is indicative of a native whose life will be affected by devious plots.


According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Mercury and Venus; and, to Alvidas, of Venus and Mercury in sextile. It gives refinement, honor, congeniality, order and a lovable nature. [Robson*, p.218.]

An attribute of Zaniah can be seen in the Mercury-Venus-in-Libra talent for negotiating peace. One attribute which a good commander (or salesman) must surely need is an intuition for knowing to call a halt to battle and either offer or seek terms for peace. If well aspected and on the right planet, Mercury, Venus, Sun, or Jupiter for example this is what will show up in the horoscope. With Mars or Saturn the terms for peace may be too harsh for acceptance; with the Moon or Neptune they may be either unrealistic or downright "shady".

Order, congeniality, lovable nature, refinement, honour

First house in Sagittarius

Sagittarians project themselves with optimism. Their ambitions are geared to large-scale goals. They appear to be friendly, interested, and jovial. However, they have a tendency to take things for granted and to think solely in terms of their own affairs and frames of reference. Their power comes from their ability to influence other people to subscribe to a system of thinking that is arranged to provide them with all the advantages. Nevertheless, the Sagittarians' optimism is a source of inspiration to those with whom they have contact.

Second house in Capricorn

These natives are practical, responsible, and ambitious concerning money. They do not spend it foolishly or capriciously. They feel it should be used for things that have lasting value, and they are often quite frugal.

Third house in Aquarius

These natives are able to communicate ideas in exciting and ingenious ways. Their ideas come in flashes of intuition, but they are capable of putting them to practical application. They are progressive in thought, insisting that ideas have a practical function based on values that have stood the test of time. They think in humanitarian terms. Unusual and peculiar relationships exist with brothers, sisters, and neighbors, who come unexpectedly in and out of their lives.

Fourth house in Aries

The natives are aggressive in matters relating to home and family, The home is sometimes a battlefield for emotional spats. It is generally filled with mechanical devices and implements.

Fifth house in Aries

These natives expend much energy in creative activity. They originate numerous concepts. In the realm of love and romance, they are passionate and aggressive. They like sports, especially those involving competition and combat such as boxing, wrestling, and football. They are dominating in their relationships with children, yet at the same time they may be generous.

Sixth house in Taurus

The work of these natives is practical, but they enjoy projects they consider beautiful and artistic. They will work hard only if they can see a monetary gain from their efforts. Their health is generally robust, providing they do not overeat or become self-indulgent in any way.

Seventh house in Gemini

Frequently, there is more than one marriage or partnership, since these natives often have their eyes on greener fields. Even though they are primarily loners, they attract people who are intelligent and versatile, and who can aid them in practical ways. They are astute and intelligent in public relations. However, they often prefer that their partners represent them and their ideas.

Eighth house in Cancer

These natives are intensely emotional regarding their own deaths. It is imperative to them to be remembered fondly after they die. They must make certain that their affairs are in order and that those they leave behind have ample provisions. In joint finances the partners generally earn money which they use to bring about their own betterment.

Ninth house in Leo

These persons may not appear to want fame, but their subconscious minds as well as their philosophy are somehow geared to attaining it and to achieving positions of importance in their respective fields of endeavor. They give their philosophy the power of their being. Many take long journeys, either physically or mentally. Their eyes are always on distant goals.

Tenth house in Libra

These natives often have partners in their professions. They are charming and skillful in winning over people who are in positions of power and thus gain promotions. However, possessing a strong sense of ethics in professional matters, they usually have good reputations and standing in the community.

Eleventh house in Libra

These people often obtain their goals by surrounding themselves with unusual, attractive, artistic, and gracious friends who are stable and prosperous. They are likely to marry a friend, a partner's friend, or a friend of long standing.

Twelfth house in Scorpio

The hidden support of these natives is their resourcefulness. They are able to perceive as valuable things that others have overlooked. They also know how to cultivate hidden talents in others. Their downfall can be caused by secret resentments and concealed love affairs.

Sun in Cancer

With a Cancer Sun, you are a somewhat complex character - kind, diplomatic, sympathetic, highly sensitive and deeply emotional, yet very defensive, protective and at times quite unforgiving - unable to forget even a minor slight. You possess a powerful imagination, and on occasions, you bring a touch of genius into the more profound affairs of life, to your and everyone else's surprise! Comfort, pleasure and relaxation are all found in your own little retreat, the home and family. Instinctive, maternal/paternal nurturing qualities make you an excellent parent and home-maker. With a sense of sound economy, you also have talent for business, but your changeable nature suggests that partnership of some form is safer than go-it-alone enterprises. Hitting one of your frequent emotional lows could precipitate disaster, having no obligation to a second party. To develop your personality to its fullest potential, the main task is one of keeping the outlook free of morbidity, and preventing depletion of emotional energy through wrong thinking. You need to cultivate a positive mental outlook. Likely occupations are nautical professions and work connected with the sea, institutional work, businesses and professions dealing with liquids, or professional occupations to do with religion.

Moon in Aquarius

The Moon in Aquarius endows you with a sociable, imaginative, sympathetic and independent nature. You regard yourself as a 'free soul' and will not be bound by any social convention - although, you do have strong humanitarian sympathies. At times, others may view you as unorthodox, unconventional, exciting and individualistic. By temperament you are inclined to original or novel subjects such as astrology, fortune-telling, mediumship, mysticism, and the occult generally - you may also be attracted to political, educational, and scientific work. At some stage you may join a secret or mystical society, association or brotherhood. For general well-being you will require complete freedom of emotional self-expression.

Mercury in Cancer

Mercury in Cancer suggests that your mind is greatly influenced by emotional and subconscious patterns - thoughts will affect your emotional state and visa-versa. You have a good memory, imagination and the ability to absorb knowledge subconsciously. The mental disposition is quiet, good-humoured, easy-going and sociable, but somewhat changeable. Your mind is sound and strong, but not always quick or alert. There is a tendency to introversion and contemplation - others may view you as something of a dreamer. Notwithstanding, this ability to turn the mind inward can bring intuitive insights which border on the genius. Many of your most perplexing problems will be solved in this manner. On your negative days the mind can be gloomy, apprehensive and fearful of the future.

Venus in Cancer

Venus in Cancer indicates a very sensitive, warm-hearted, protective, affectionate and deeply emotional romantic nature. For general well-being and emotional security you require a safe home and a loving family. In romance, your super-sensitive feelings are vulnerable to the least slight - you are very fragile in this area, thus easily hurt. Your lack of romantic self-confidence requires that your partner demonstrates constant affection and devotion. Your moodiness, sentimentality and tendency to sulk could present some problems, but on the whole, you are the ideal marriage partner in that you cherish your home and family, seeking a stable and affectionate domestic life.

Mars in Gemini

Mars in Gemini strengthens your mental nature. You assert yourself with spontaneity, resourcefulness and ingenuity - energy is channelled into intellectual pursuits requiring high intellect, mentally alertness, and aggressive debating skill. There is some tendency to restlessness and irritability - you react badly to criticism. You have a fun attitude to sex, preferring a lively experimental partner. Good lovemaking requires mental stimulation and variety.

Jupiter in Cancer

Jupiter in Cancer gives you the opportunity to develop a kind, loving, sensitive and paternal nature, capable of sympathy and understanding. These qualities are necessary in order to expand your personality and life experiences. Your duty is to nourish, protect and instil kindness, moral principles and a love of knowledge into receptive minds. You will find happiness though a secure, friendly, prosperous and comfortable home environment. It is possible that you inherit a large estate or receive money and help from your parents.

Saturn in Libra

In order to succeed in your social position in the world you will have to gain knowledge and expertise relating to human relationships at a social and personal level. Life experience will force you to learn valuable lessons related to the development of social awareness and a strong sense of responsibility in relationships. You must come to realise that co-operation, justice and mutual agreement are necessary for stable, enduring friendships and partnerships. Receptiveness, tact, reliability and good organising skills could bring wealth and social standing.

Uranus in Gemini

Those born in this generation have the ability to receive from the planetary mind new forms of communication to reach people with the message of the times. They will have fresh insights into how to verbalize and promote the new directions that have been established. Disruption occurs only when attempts aremade to stay on a logical, rational level with their messages instead of expanding the mind to a more intuitive form of communication.

Neptune in Virgo

Those born in the generation of Neptune in Virgo have the potential for realizing the higher aspects of health and service on a planetary level. They are infused with the vision of plans to make perfect health available to everyone. Growing world concern over the effects of pollution, envirionmental hazards, and devitalized foods has increased through the efforts of this generation. On a personal level, it indicates the dilemma of dealing with idealistic expectations of automatic emotional fulfillment coming from one's job in life. It offers the choice of accepting or denying the responsibility of serving one's fellow man in whatever capacity one may find oneself. A sense of true inner joy is possible through the conscious dedication of manifesting one's ideals of service in one's line of work.


Well-known member
Based on what I've been able to find in the historical record, I prefer a chart close to Noon for the adoption (NOT the signing - that took place over time) of the Declaration of Independence.

From, the U.S. National Archives site: “On July 1, 1776, Congress reconvened. The following day, the Lee Resolution for independence was adopted by 12 of the 13 colonies, New York not voting. Immediately afterward, the Congress began to consider the Declaration. Adams and Franklin had made only a few changes before the committee submitted the document. The discussion in Congress resulted in some alterations and deletions, but the basic document remained Jefferson's. The process of revision continued through all of July 3 and into the late morning of July 4. Then, at last, church bells rang out over Philadelphia; the Declaration had been officially adopted.”

This gives a Libra rising chart with Saturn exalted in the 1st House - a nation of laws, not men.

I also did a study a while ago that compared the various charts, and of the DOI charts, the close to noon chart does best:

My most recent historical study on elections/inuagurations includes a chart for 12:15 p.m. - which is what purposely elected chart might look like:

Frank - a Native Philadelphian
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New member
Actually, this is an easy one if we don't overthink it. I use the Sibley chart because Sagittarius is ruled by Jupiter and the ascendant shows how we come across to the world. What is America to the rest of the world? The land of opportunity. What does even the Statue of Liberty, for years the guardian of the portal to America say? " ... I lift my land beside the golden door."

Those are not Geminian principles. They are Sagittarian ones. Jupiter absolutely does rule the USA ascendant. The Sibley chart works extremely well for me in all my mundane work.


Well-known member
I'm open to the idea of exploring various possible nativities for the USA, and I think Frank did some good work in that area.
In fact, when I get my snazzy new Sirius software, I'll plug in some events into the rectification calculator myself out of curiosity to see what comes up. I'll for sure use: The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the assassination of JFK, the assassination of Lincoln, the first plane hit on WTC, and a few other monumental, iconic events.

Having said that, I really feel that the Sibly chart is deeply valid. There are so many factors that perfectly describe the American experience- from the Sag rising, to the strong 2nd, 8th, 10th house emphasis that describes the American approaches toward money and markets, to the strong 7th house emphasis that describes our partnerships and alliances with other countries. In the Sibly chart, Chiron is in the 4th, and was exactly conjunct transiting Mars on Dec 7, 1941-an astrological relationship that eloquently symbolizes the deep wounding (chiron) that the US suffered that day from an attack (Mars) on American soil (4th house). Also, the Sabian symbol for 12 Sag-the Sibly ascendant- is "a flag that turns into an eagle that crows"- how fitting is that.

So, I'm open to exploring other radical charts for the US, but I will have to see some really strong data to pry me away from the Sibly.


Well-known member
I'm writing this post under the influence of the Moon-Uranus square. Please bear with me if this sounds too revolutionary. As it has been already stated recently, Mars' ingress in Gemini will actually fire up intellectual debates.

There're at least two main charts for the US - that are generally considered as most effective from an astrological point of view - both on Jyly 4, 1776, Philadelphia, PA, timezone LMT:
- the Sagittarius rising chart - 5:10 pm - the Sibley chart
- the Gemini rising chart - 2:13 am

I just read this text by Olivia Barclay:

"It has always been a puzzle to me that any astrologer could associate America with Sagittarius rather than Gemini. Ebenezer Sibley, not a good astrologer, seems to be the originator of such an idea. It is a country of few pedestrians, constant change of communication as on TV, short journeys by air or road. They play football with their arms and hands and demonstrated their solidarity by holding hands across the continent; also Geminian people pove to live high up (skyscrapers)."

My personal impression so far is that the Gemini rising chart is most descriptive for the American spirit and way of life, yet the Sagittarius rising chart is most accurate in terms of transits and progressions. Which one is it, then?

Finally, this duality or lack of consensus is SO descriptive for the mutable axis Gemini-Sagittarius. Gemini stands for multple items of the same kind (such as twins). In this case - charts.

Ok, I've had my say. Now, its your turn! :mrgreen:

There is a very simple disproof of the Gemini rising chart that any competent astrologer can apply. Simply look at where the energy of the chart is and N.Node to see what direction the energy settles in and moves towards geographically. In the Gemini Asc chart, the Cancer Sun, planets are focused in a ENE direction (2nd house). The Nodal axis (pre-history of nation and future) is positioned with N.Node in NE position. In the Sag Asc charts, they are focused in the opposite directions WSW/West.

Now where did the population move to? It spread in a Westward and Southwestward direction, with (southern) California becoming the most populated region, after the goldrush of the 1800s. There was nowhere Eastward for a population to go, since they'd already come from the NE coasts, therefore a Gemini rising chart is a fiction of wishful thinking.

The USA could not be a better example of Sagittarius rising. Not only that but the correct chart [21SAG04] has Pluto parallel the Asc. This is the chart of an empire.

There are at least 14 different charts for the USA displayed on astrodatabank, all of them wrong. The only ones that start in the right place generally are the Sag charts.

Extroverted, outgoing, freedom-loving, free-speaking (see the revolutionary 1st Amendment). Believing, optimistic, open and embracing (see Lady Liberty in NY Harbor with poem, "The New Colossus" -- the living picture of Sagittarius rising.

If you are going to attempt to verify any USA chart, you'd better adjust for precession and check the declinations for each event.

dr. farr

Well-known member
All the above posts have been very interesting. Just to add to this mixed bag of USA-chart speculations, certain esoteric adepts (they shall remain un-named here:devil:), believing in the division of the earth beginning with Giza as the "zero point" :)unsure:), allocated the USA East to Scorpio, Midwest to Sagittarius, and the far West (beginning around the longitudinal bisection of California) to Capricorn...


Well-known member
certain esoteric adepts (they shall remain un-named here:devil:), believing in the division of the earth beginning with Giza as the "zero point" :)unsure:), allocated the USA East to Scorpio, Midwest to Sagittarius, and the far West (beginning around the longitudinal bisection of California) to Capricorn...

I use Gizeh. Years ago I posted about that on another forum. Gizeh as the "navel of the Earth" makes a lot more sense than Greenwich.

The Great Pyramid quarters the Earth, divides it into the "four corners." Half of all land is north of the Great Pyramid and the other half south, and then half of all land is east and other half west. It is the geodetic center of Earth's land mass (but not the geodetic center of Earth -- a slight distinction there).

All of our MENA maps were azithumal maps with an origin point east of Cairo right on the Gizeh Plateau. They had air corridors marked so if I wanted an air drop or close air support I'd get with the forward air controller and we'd plan that out, but we used UTM grid maps for the actual target references. If it's good enough for NASA, the US military and Piri Re'is, it's good enough for me.

However, I don't use Aries as the first Sign. I think the bulk of the evidence points to Pisces. I use 2,160 BCE for the Aries shift since the Sumerians claim the Deluge occurred during the Age of Leo. That would date it to about 10,800 BCE which fits with current scientific data regarding the destruction of the western ice sheet in Antarctica and the sea levels rising 600 to 800 feet (180m to 240m).

If I use Gizeh, then I use the Sideral Zodiac.

cappygolucky said:
How bout scorpio rising.. my god what is going on in the US is very scorp

It's better to leave out emotional arguments and rely more on astrology and historical facts.

Would a Scorpio Ascendant show signs of weakness?

Would a Scorpio Ascendant allow itself to be bullied and pushed around?

For about 15 years the US paid an annual tribute to the Barbary States in excess of $1 Million, to keep the Barbary States from pirating US ships and seizing US merchant vessels and cargo. Do you have any idea what $1 Million in 1794 would be worth today?

For about 6 years, the US paid bribes to the French, because the French were seizing US naval and merchant vessels and their cargoes. The French were also forcing US citizens who were sailors on those ships into the French Navy.

The British also engaged in that practice, known as "impressment" forcing US citizens to serve on British naval vessels and the US looked the other way for years, doing nothing but filing mild diplomatic protests.

Those are the historical facts (which are not taught in high schools for obvious reasons) and it doesn't sound very Scorpio to me.

That's more indicative of a Virgo/Libra 10th House and Libra 11th House, which makes the Ascendant Sagittarius.

The 1st House only shows the people, not the government, which is shown by the 10th House.

Kannon said:
There is a very simple disproof of the Gemini rising chart that any competent astrologer can apply. Simply look at where the energy of the chart is and N.Node to see what direction the energy settles in and moves towards geographically. In the Gemini Asc chart, the Cancer Sun, planets are focused in a ENE direction (2nd house). The Nodal axis (pre-history of nation and future) is positioned with N.Node in NE position. In the Sag Asc charts, they are focused in the opposite directions WSW/West.

Now where did the population move to? It spread in a Westward and Southwestward direction, with (southern) California becoming the most populated region, after the goldrush of the 1800s. There was nowhere Eastward for a population to go, since they'd already come from the NE coasts, therefore a Gemini rising chart is a fiction of wishful thinking.

That's interesting and just more evidence. You can also look at the transit of the Outer Planets. They only fit a Sagittarius-rising chart.


New member
Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate - how about Sidereal?

The best evidence is for 2:13 pm. The engraving of Liberty Hall, on the back of the $100 bill shows the clock hands at 2:23, and since in the notes of Thomas Jefferson, who was there, the Declaration of Independence was brought out of committee and approved by all those present in the mid afternoon of July 4, 1776. Furthermore, the engraver who created the engraving that is used for the $100 bill was a friend of Benjamin Franklin, who was a Mason and an astrologer. (For more background on this issue, see WHAT IS THE REAL U.S. BIRTH CHART? by Gary Brand - written March 6, 2009, published in two parts in the April and May 2009 editions of Echo* newspaper. A pdf file of this is available on the internet.) This would argue that Franklin himself placed his imprimatur on the 2:23 pm time. As noted, Franklin was an Astrologer and he also liked puzzles and games. It is interesting that the 2:23pm time would give a 13Cancer13” longitude for the Sun(Tropical Zodiac, which Franklin would have been using). That would have corresponded to the 13 colonies forming 13 states in the original Union.

That issue aside, it seems to me that an even more meaningful issue is whether the Sidereal chart works better than the Tropical: Here is a post to my blog concerning the Winter Ingress and the USA Sidereal chart for 2011
Here’s what we are looking at for 2011

What jumps out immediately here is the Conjunction of the Ingress Saturn to the Ascendant of the USA horoscope. This is quite ominous, and portends the strong possibility of some kind of collapse in the domestic housing market, and also some kind of agricultural problems, perhaps some kind of really bad freeze affecting prices, and definitely the building trades will suffer, along with the rest of the economy.
The Ingress Moon shows that it is possible that some kind of economic stress will involve the commodity futures, especially in agriculture. The ingress Mars is troublesome, in that it is close to the natal Moon, possibly indicating some domestic disturbance or violence. Also the weather could influence the economy. (Cold, cold, cold!)


Well-known member
Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate - how about Sidereal?

The best evidence is for 2:13 pm. The engraving of Liberty Hall, on the back of the $100 bill shows the clock hands at 2:23, and since in the notes of Thomas Jefferson, who was there, the Declaration of Independence was brought out of committee and approved by all those present in the mid afternoon of July 4, 1776. Furthermore, the engraver who created the engraving that is used for the $100 bill was a friend of Benjamin Franklin, who was a Mason and an astrologer. (For more background on this issue, see WHAT IS THE REAL U.S. BIRTH CHART? by Gary Brand - written March 6, 2009, published in two parts in the April and May 2009 editions of Echo* newspaper. A pdf file of this is available on the internet.) This would argue that Franklin himself placed his imprimatur on the 2:23 pm time. As noted, Franklin was an Astrologer and he also liked puzzles and games. It is interesting that the 2:23pm time would give a 13Cancer13” longitude for the Sun(Tropical Zodiac, which Franklin would have been using). That would have corresponded to the 13 colonies forming 13 states in the original Union.

To correct some of your statements:

- It's Independence Hall, not "Liberty Hall"
- The $100 note with the engraving of Independence Hall wasn't issued until 1928.
- The tower with the clock pictured in the engraving on the reverse of the $100 bill wasn't built until 1828, so it's rather unlikely that a friend or contemporary of Benjamin Franklin (who died in 1790) engraved it. What is the primary historical source for this?
- The Bureau of Engraving and Printing of the U.S. Department of the Treasury states that "The hands of the clock on the hall are set at approximately 4:10. There are no records explaining why that particular time was chosen."
- Jefferson's own writings contradict each other on the time of the adoption of the DoI.
- Charles Thomson, Secretary of the Continental Congress's handwritten notes (which I personally examined via microfiche at the National Archives in Philadelphia) show adoption of the DoI rather early in the order of business for that day.