USA charts - the ultimate debate

Alstroemeria

Well-known member
So how would the current Wall Street craziness play in the U.S. chart?

I don't know the first thing about mundane astrology; I'll leave this one to the ones who know what they're talking about. c:
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
skywatcher1221 said:
There is a lot to recommend the Gemini rising chart for the U.S.
There is nothing to recommend for a Gemini rising chart.

I will take on all comers and I will have you all in tears, that's how badly I will beat you down with facts.

The transits of Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto only fit a Sagittarius rising chart and no other.

The 11th House is definitely and undisputably "peace at any price" Libra.

Most of you don't know that the US government paid an annual tribute to the Barbary States for more than 10 years.

Adjusted for 2007 US Dollars, the annual tribute was $132,506,124

The Libra "peace at any price" US government paid annual bribes to Britain, France, Spain, and half a dozen other countries not to attack or harass its naval and merchant vessels.

skywatcher1221 said:
but the Sagittarius Ascendant has historic credibility. 12-13 degrees of Sagittarius seems likely
About 9° Sag fits better.

This is why Gemini rising fails miserably. In a personal chart, the archetype for Uranus opposition Ascendant reflects a change in relationship status, usually separation or divorce, but it can mean other things.

In the mundane chart for countries, Uranus opposition Ascendant often means civil wars.

In the US natal chart that I use, transiting Uranus first opposes the natal Ascendant at the time of the Civil War.

Progressing the chart pre-natal, Uranus opposes the natal Ascendant at the time of the colonial war of independence.

Progressing the chart further still pre-natal, there are civil wars in the colonies in 1692 when transiting Uranus opposes the natal Ascendant as the colony of Carolina has a civil war that results in a split into North and South Carolina, and then the Dominion of New England is overthrown creating what is effectively the colonies of Maine, Vermont, New Hamshire, Rhode Island and Massachusetts.

Progressing the chart beyond 1861 we have a Uranus opposition Ascendant in 1944.

Civil War? Nope.

But the relationship of the US with the world changed as the US became the leader of the world.

I only mention that because in 20 years, Uranus will oppose the US natal Ascendant again.

1944 was different than 1692, 1776 and 1861 because the transits of the other outer planets were different, and you must take them into consideration (as well as the progressed planets).

2028 more closely conforms to 1861 and to a lesser extent, 1776 than 1944. A civil war in the US in 2028 is extremely likely especially in the context of world events and US society.

In 1841, you had a US society that was divided into two camps with irreconcilable differences, a recession started that led to the Great Depression (the first of two in the 1800s) and shortly thereafter the Civil War began.

What exists in 2008, is a US society divided into two camps with irreconcilable differences, a recession coming that will lead to an economic depression, and shortly thereafter a civil war will begin.

Because of a previous military duty assignment, I have in-depth knowledge of US geo-strategy so I'd be happy to explain it, but for those who are interested in learning on their own to understand why the US is in Iraq, I recommend reading the writings of neo-conservatives from the period 1974 to 1978 and then looking at other neo-conservative positon papers especially those written during the Clinton Adminstration which will give you insight into why the illegal wars Clinton supported in Bosnia, Kosovo-Metojiha, Central Asia and Afghanistan were important in shaping the future and paving the way for Bush to invade Iraq.

If the US fails in its current geo-strategy, the US wil fail as a nation, and the US probably will fail because it under-estimated China and because of the genius of the ultimate god-like poet-warrior Vladimr Putin (sorry General Haig).

That failure will certainly cause economic problems that might lead to civil war.

skywatcher1221 said:
-- it appears first in the chart of the American Revolution as the Moon's position, in the 8th House (April 19, 1775, 5:00 AM, Lexington, Massachusetts).
Not really relevant.

skywatcher1221 said:
Also in the chart for Abraham Lincoln's death
So? I have 11 Ptolemaic aspects.

The Lincoln Assassination was a conspiracy, and Pluto figures prominently, as of course you would expect. The Moon is conjunct the Ascendant when Lincoln dies (naturally of course as you would expect).

The Garfield and McKinley Assassinations were not conspiracies, so as you would expect, Pluto does not figure prominently, in fact not at all.

The Kennedy Assasination? Pluto figures prominently. I'm sorry to report that there are only a mere 8 Ptolemaic aspects.

How many from the Sibley Chart? Yeah, that's what I thought. Gag me with a spoon.

skywatcher1221 said:
and the 9/11 Attacks.
My chart boasts 13 Ptolemaic aspects; transit to progressed to natal.

It would probably take me months to look at the minor aspects.

I'm rolling on the floor laughing when someone says they have a partile dodecaquintilespetisextile proving their chart shows 9-11.

How many with the Sibley Chart? What a useless chart.

skywatcher1221 said:
True, the Moon was void-of-course
And that pretty much sums it up. The Sibley Chart is Void, of course.

skywatcher1221 said:
The founders like Jefferson envisioned an agrarian republic
Jefferson envisioned 13 separate countries, just like each of the 13 colonies envisioned 13 separate countries.

He even said so 3 times in the Declaration of Independence.

skywatcher1221 said:
Might this be the "real" chart of the United States?
No possible way. There isn't a single document that supports the creation of a "United States" prior to 1777. The idea of a "united states" existed only among a few men.

US history books are full of propaganda and lies.

For example, you're told that the "big bad evil godless communist Soviets" put missile in Cuba to threaten the US. That's an outrageous lie.

What you aren't told is that in April 1962, the US put missiles on the Soviet border in Turkey to threaten and frighten the Russian people. The Soviets responded appropriately by putting missiles in Cuba to negate the US threat.

You aren't told the truth, because it would alter your perception of the events.

The same is true for the Berlin Blockade. You're told that the "big bad evil godless communist Soviets" blockaded Berlin for no reason.

What you aren't told is that the German army destroyed cities in Belarus, Ukraine and eastern Russia, and that under international law, the Soviets were authorized war reparations to repair the infrastructure.

You also aren't told that a big brain in the US government thought it would be really cool and funny to cut off the payments of war reparations between Germany and the Soviet Union to keep the Soviets from reparing the badly damaged infrastructure and that the Soviets responded appropriately by blockading access to Berlin.

See, knowing the truth would alter your perception of events.

The same is true for the "Revolutionary War." You aren't told that only 10% of the colonists supported the rebels. The other 90% supported the king or didn't care, because that would alter your perception of the events.

Anyway, I'm running 5 US natal charts based on actual historical events (that most Americans wouldn't be aware of unless they studied US colonial history at university), and I dropped one because it sucked even though it blows the Sibley Chart away.

I now have 4 hits on my best chart. My last hit came when I made a prediction on a web-site on August 10 of events that would occur during the week of September 8.

I need 8 more correct predictions before I can claim I have the "Holy Grail" since that will make me 12 for 12.

I'm probably going to drop two more charts in the next 60 days, even though they blow the Sibley Chart away on transits and progressions for past events, they aren't as strong as my best chart on past events and their predictive capacity isn't all that good. 50-50 is unacceptable for predictions.
 

Awakened_Pisces

Well-known member
This is some serious stuff. But it must be asked. You said that it was extremely likely for a civil war in 2028. But that the war will begin shortly after 2008. So are we seeing a 15+ YR Civil War here? That possibly ENDS in 2028 rather then escalates? I've always wanted to run for president and my solar return in 2026 has Jupiter Trine Sun. So I wonder if I am a potential winner in 2028. Because I have a duty and obligation to protect All Americans. And I know full well that our government has been less then honest with itself and other nations. I posed the question in Solar Returns predictive astrology but if you want, I can repost.
 

AquarianEssence

Well-known member
Did I miss any mention of Scorpio rising here? I looked through and didn't see any mention, although I see mention of Pluto showing prominently in transit with events. To me, land of the Free, is Mars, in his role as ruler of Aries, but he carries that over into his governorship of Scorpio too, along with the bravery. There is no doubt that the American eagle comes straight from Scorpio's symbolism and myth. There are so many 13s (Scorpio's number) in our seal, I can't imagine any other personality rising. We even started with only 13 divisions, stars and stripes. There is no doubt that secrecy plays a part in Presidential politics, even with the Fed who isn't made to disclose what is going on for 5 years at a time.

Which ever chart is the best will have its angles prominently shown in events that affect our country. I just spent some time looking into the bail out bill and see that the Scorpio chart fits much better. My thoughts on this are here. I didn't see any hits to the Gem or Sag rising chart angles.
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
AquarianEssence said:
Did I miss any mention of Scorpio rising here?
No reputable astrologer would consider Scorpio-rising. Campion has a nice disseration on mundane chart rectification that you might want to familiarize yourself with.

The major outers (Uranus, Neptune and Pluto) must match the events in a country's chart, and for the US that cannot be unless Sagittarius is rising.

And please don't resort to some cafeneptune garbage about "Pluto only sows the seeds of discontent" which are manifested later.

Ask someone with Pluto transiting their 2nd House and has their finances in disarray if they're feeling the effects now or later.

AquarianEssence said:
To me, land of the Free, is Mars, in his role as ruler of Aries, but he carries that over into his governorship of Scorpio too, along with the bravery.
That's a highly subjective approach which has no business in astrology.

In a Sagittarius-rising chart, it is better explained with Scorpio on the 12th House showing the subconscoiusness, inner conscious or psyche of (at least some) Americans.

AquarianEssence said:
There is no doubt that the American eagle comes straight from Scorpio's symbolism and myth. There are so many 13s (Scorpio's number) in our seal, I can't imagine any other personality rising.
Again, that's a highly subjective approach. I don't have time to explain "Crowd Symbols" but for many people a "Crowd Symbol" is

Romanians - Bessarabia
Magyars - Transylvania
Serbs - Kosovo and Metohija
Irish - Northern Ireland
Argentinians - The Falklands
Zionists - Greater Israel
Palestinians - Palestine
Mexicans - Southwestern US

In America's past Crowd Symbols were the Alamo, the Maine, the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, etc

Crowd Symbols are symbols that affect the psyche, again, best explained through a Scorpio 12th house.

AquarianEssence said:
We even started with only 13 divisions, stars and stripes.
Actually, there were over 2 dozen colonies, but through civil wars, it ended up being 11, and then from the Colony of Carolina came North and South Carolina, and Georgia. You might want to study early colonial America more.

AquarianEssence said:
There is no doubt that secrecy plays a part in Presidential politics, even with the Fed who isn't made to disclose what is going on for 5 years at a time.
The Federal Reserve has nothing to do with the presidency, but secrecy and secret organizations or those cloaked in "secrecy" are best explained through a Scorpio 12th House, and with respect to my USA chart, Neptune in the 11th House.

AquarianEssence said:
Which ever chart is the best will have its angles prominently shown in events that affect our country. I just spent some time looking into the bail out bill and see that the Scorpio chart fits much better. My thoughts on this are here. I didn't see any hits to the Gem or Sag rising chart angles.

The "bail out bill" is not a major life-shattering event in US history. It is not the first time in US history when banks have been bailed out, and it won't be the last.

In a proper USA chart it would be reflected by transiting Neptune in the 2nd House aspecting natal Venus. If Neptune ruled the 4th House, that would be even better, since we have an illusory action involving banking, real estate and the economy (all reflected through Venus, the 4th and 2nd Houses).

Wow, what do you know, my Sagittarius rising USA chart shows exactly that.

That's a common problem in astrology and it's amusing to see astrologers seize a rather banal event of no consequence and then elevate it to a saga of epic proportions and try to build a US natal chart around that event, then justify it by claiming that a single aspect like a duododecanonasemisesquisquare between two planets that aren't even in the proper houses or signs "proves" their chart is the correct USA natal chart.

With a Scorpio rising chart, you can't predict the next economic depression to within +/-30 days, because you can't see it, and you can't look at the past two economic depressions because they don't appear in the chart.

You can't see the wide-spread crop failures in the US that will happen shortly, because the planet that triggers those events is in the wrong house, and you can't see the past five occurences of massive crop failures either.

And you can't see transiting Uranus opposing the Ascendant in about 20 years.

The previous four times involved major and drastic changes, but you can't see that in a Scorpio-rising chart, just as you can't see that 3 of the 4 times involved war and death (I guess you could say 4 out of 4 times but the US was at war with others -- not itself -- the last time).

What's the difference between the future Uranus/Ascendant opposition and the one at the start of the Civil War?

Uranus opposing Ascendant = Check
Neptune in 4th = Check
Jupiter in 9th House = Check
Saturn in 9th House = No, 5th House
Pluto in 5th House = No, 2nd House

Of course you might remember Pluto being in the 2nd during the colonial rebellion when Uranus opposed the Ascendant, but you'd need a Sagittarius-rising chart to see that.

This particular event, with it's 14 MAJOR aspects (like 9-11 and other MAJOR events) is quite trouble-some, especially with the rather ominous transiting Mars conjuncting the Ascendant and simultaneously opposing Uranus opposing Ascendant.

I only point that out because the purpose of rectifying a chart is to be able to use it to make accurate predictions with some degree of confidence, and more importantly, to have the historical events and associated aspects related to those events to back it up.

In other words, if Astrology is truly a science, then this planet in this sign and this house in a certain aspect to that planet in that sign and that house will always yield the same underlying results.

The way in which it plays itself out fully will be determined by the position of the other planets in the chart at the time of the event. When rectifying mundane charts for countries, you need to be able to show the history of those particular aspects, and that's where Scorpio-rising, Gemini-rising and other charts fail miserably.

If you believe Scorpio-rising is the correct chart, then prove it.

Start by preparing a justification for all 5 past periods of major crop failures, and also using the Moon, Venus and the 4th House ruler justify the climatic conditions that caused those crop failures, ie hot and dry, hot and wet, cold and dry and cold and wet, and then predict the occurence of the next massive crop failure in the US and state the climatic conditions that will cause it and how many years it will last. It should be a simple task since you should see the same thing on 5 previous occasions.
 

AquarianEssence

Well-known member
My, you seem to have a personal investment in the Sag rising chart. How did it come to be “your” chart, if I may ask? Actually, I don't have any personal investment in proving or disproving but I am interested in understanding which one is the right and most useful one. I have a feeling that all three do reflect a part of America but there can only be one that best shows major events through contacts to the natal planets, AND angles. I am a reputable astrologer, by the way, and I consider all possibilities until all but one are ruled out. That is the only way to make an objective assessment. The first thing that puts up a red flag with the Sag chart is that the Moon is void of course. I have 54 years of personal experience and many years of objective observation of other's with void of course natal Moon. The US doesn't fit a natal void Moon in the 3rd.


I'm quite familiar with Pluto, personally, having him in the 1st and ruling my Moon. I find it interesting that it is the most prominent planet showing contact with major events, one hint that it is a major player or chart ruler.


You point out prominence of Uranus but using 2:21 pm (the time recorded on the clock and an appropriate time to have made this declaration), puts Uranus in a very near exact waning inconjunct to the 8Sco35 ascendant. Yes, Uranus rules rebellion, but Pluto seems to like re-volution. In “your” chart, Uranus rules the siblings, in the Scorpio rising chart, he rules the homeland, the mother country of the 4th. England was the mother country, not a sibling.


The two major reasons I understand for the separation is religion and taxation. “Your” choice puts religion front and center but Scorpio represents taxation. If religion was the only reason they could just as easily have continued on in secret but taxation is another matter, cause for war. Yes, I'm sure religion was a very important part of their motivation but the founding fathers seemed to have had a more occult (Scorpio) way of practicing their faith rather than the very traditional Sag. Look at the rulers of the 9th in each to see how much more unusual the faith of the Scorpio chart is than the Sag rising chart.


I have no idea where you got 11 colonies from. I not only received American History in grade school, I have went through it with my children during 20 years of home schooling so I've also seen how the textbooks have been rewritten to “change” certain aspects of history. But as far as I know they all still use the number 13, which is clearly a Scorpio number. Have you forgotten that our first flag had 13 stars and stripes?


Please explain, Bob, how you suppose Mars simply sheds his Aries nature when he governs Scorpio? The 12th house is what is hidden, among other things. Is our eagle or other Scorpio symbols hidden? How does a crowd symbol get stashed away in the 12th house? The ascendant shows how we appear to others, what others see when they look at us, or the mask we wear. I have Leo rising and one thing that people know me for is my lion's mane and a baby on my hip. When others look at the US they see the American eagle, first of all. We call ourselves a world power, Pluto is power, with Mars giving the fuel for that power. What about the famous words, still quoted, “Give me liberty or give me death”? Thastis Mars showing his split personality.


I don't care to take the time research crop failures, but feel free to prove “your” chart with it if you choose. I'll take a few events you may consider more major than this economic crisis. I will omit the hits to natal planets except the Moon, because they are nearly the same on all three charts, and will otherwise focus on the angles.


April 12, 1861, when Confederate forces attacked a U.S. military installation at Fort Sumter in South Carolina Moon in Taurus, quite possibly on the descendant of the Scorpio chart, quite fitting. But the biggie is Pluto at 8Scorpio34, exactly conjunct the ascendant. Mars is very close to the Gemini rising chart but no cigar in the Sag chart. Sun, ruler of the Scorpio MC, was sextile the antiscion of ascendant. I see not good hits in the Sag chart.


Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox Court House on April 9, 1865. Without the time I don't know if Moon was in late Virgo or early Libra. But Mercury was exact conjunct the Scorpio descendant that day with Neptune (involved with slavery) near exact inconjunct ascendant. Uranus had just perfected a trine to Moon, separating only 31'.


When Lincoln was assassinated, Venus was exact square Scorpio chart Moon from the 7th house. Now, the Moon was within a couple degrees of “your” ascendant when he was pronounced dead but he was shot some 9 hours earlier. Moon was likely around 8-9 Sag when he was shot, making a tight semisextile to Scorpio chart ascendant, fitting into the death axis. Of course, Saturn was square Pluto, in all three charts.


I don't have the time to look at a lot of other events right now but one I couldn't resist was 9/11/2001. This one does give you some evidence, Pluto right on the ascendant of the Sag chart, and the Moon was also void of course, separating trine. But Uranus (explosion) was closer parallel to the Scorpio chart Moon than to the Sag rising chart. This event too, must be looked at differently than others because the Moon was void. There are certain loopholes open during void periods and things happen strangely.


In a proper USA chart it would be reflected by transiting Neptune in the 2nd House aspecting natal Venus. If Neptune ruled the 4th House, that would be even better, since we have an illusory action involving banking, real estate and the economy (all reflected through Venus, the 4th and 2nd Houses).


Wow, what do you know, my Sagittarius rising USA chart shows exactly that.

Huh? I can see that transiting Neptune would be in the latter part of the 2nd but what aspect to natal Venus which is at 3 Cancer? And Mars is ruling your 4th, housing, not Neptune. What house system are you using? Your point about Uranus needing to be opposing the ascendant to have rebellion isn't really the case. I recently experienced that several degrees ago with no rebellion or upheaval at all. I've observed the same with others. Now, if you were talking about Uranus opposition, that might be another thing.


Can you point out with this economic issue where your angles are being aspected? I'm quite willing to accept the validity if you can show something better than aspects that all the charts share. Now the Scorpio rising chart does have transiting Neptune in the 4th with Pluto in the 2nd, and contra-antiscion natal Venus, a pretty good description of what is going on as far as I'm concerned. Uranus transiting the 5th in mutual reception with Neptune in the 4th fits the speculation with mortgages too, along with the dissolving of the markets, IMO.


It might be easier to convince others to come your direction, too, if you were a little nicer in your presentation. :sunny:



Love & Light
Connie

(edited 10/9 to complete sentence about natal void)
 
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Awakened_Pisces

Well-known member
Aqua, while I am interested in a Scorpio-USA Chart, I must say don't you think Mars or the Sun would be a more fitting sign to use for explosions and such. Uranus generally is about change and revolution and rebellion. I personally would use the Sun or Mars.

Another under-rated aspect about Scorpio is the history of it's sign. From Wiki:
In mythology Scorpio is often associated with Hades, Lord of the Underworld, who was known in Roman mythology as Pluto, and Orpheus from the Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice. Scorpio is also associated with the Greco-Roman gods Ares/Mars. The constellation is also associated with the scorpion that killed Orion.

Also note that PLUTO was Scorpio's traditional ruler and as noted by both Aqua and Bob as a signifcator in American history. Mars is Scorpio's ruler in Modern Astrology.

Also note Scorpio's obvious power. The United States of America is a power.
 
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AquarianEssence

Well-known member
Hi ConfusedPisces. I would give Mars the explosive material, the energy that ignites the explosion but would give the explosion itself to Uranus. Sun is the central power, Uranus distributes that power. Look at several bombing or explosion charts and see if you don't notice Uranus more strongly contacting the ascendant than Mars or Sun. I see Uranus stronly placed or in aspect with all sorts of upheaval, natural or manmade. I've been tracking hurricanes for some time and always see Moon in aspect to Uranus at formation and when it intensifies. I just looked at the 2001 Kuta, Bali bombing and recent Dresser Rand explosion in Painted Post, NY and see that Mars Uranus was near exact trine ascendant in the Bali bombing, nearest the ascendant int he other. Sun was inconjunct the ascendant but it ruled the 6th house of workers. But this would better explain what the workers were doing when it happened, performing a pressure test on parts, an 8th house type of inconjunct being a great deal of pressure. But Uranus being in the 1st house best describes the explosion. The closes aspects are Mercury Rx inconjucnt Uranus, near exact, but also trine Neptune, in the hospital. Mercury points to the two victims. The most exact aspect in the chart is Uranus opossing the Virgo vertex, showing a fated explosion at the hands of man. Mars looks more prominant in the Bali chart but is making a square to Saturn separated several degrees from aspecting the ascendant. Uranus, on the other hand is applying trine to ascendant near exact.

Looking back to the quake and eruption activity of Mt. St. Helen in 1980 I see that the first quake had Moon opposing Uranus. Steam started several days later when Moon squared Uranus. Soon the north wall began to buldge as Moon conjoined Uranus. Then on the morning of May 18, 1980 she began over 9 hours of eruption, as Moon was trine Uranus.

Just my opinion but based on several observations. I use Mars for Aries and both Mars and Pluto for Scorpio. My Scorpio Moon came into full blown maturity when Pluto passed over it but little notice when Mars passes over ever few years. To tell you the truth, I've heard that some consider Mars as Scorpio's ruler and Pluto as Aries but haven't heard the case presented for this thought. Would you care to elaborate on how that is supported? Pluto seems just too collective and group oriented to be so personal as Aries, the first cause.
 

skywatcher1221

Well-known member
AquarianEssence said:
Hi ConfusedPisces. I would give Mars the explosive material, the energy that ignites the explosion but would give the explosion itself to Uranus. Sun is the central power, Uranus distributes that power. Look at several bombing or explosion charts and see if you don't notice Uranus more strongly contacting the ascendant than Mars or Sun. I see Uranus stronly placed or in aspect with all sorts of upheaval, natural or manmade.

Another example: Uranus was near the MC when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.
 

skywatcher1221

Well-known member
Here is the chart for the Hiroshima bombing. The release time was 8:15 AM but the actual detonation occurred 57 seconds later. I used the release time (when the bomb was dropped), not that 57 seconds would make a dramatic difference. Either way, Uranus conjoins the MC. (I included Lucifer's position to satisfy my curiosity; it conjoins the U.S. Mars.)
 

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AquarianEssence

Well-known member
Well, I see a good way to identify the attacker here. Uranus is at the solstice point of US Sun and the ascendant is square the solstice point, separating. Sun ruling the MC fits the executive order and country that was behind it. Mars, the ruling planet of the US ascendant is trine the solstice point of that ascendant, with Pluto separating a square not long ago, and in a critical degree fitting the ascendant too. This might be a good way to check the identity of the 911 attackers and others. How appropriate Lucifer is at the Aries point joined by Venus who is Lucifer in this chart. And, nuclear power is now used to produce light.

I was shocked to see the cusps in this chart. My husband and the son we share, both have critical 17Virgo rising. Both have been a bit of an explosion in my life. He has Uranus in the 1st with Pluto.
 

skywatcher1221

Well-known member
Confusedpisces said:
Skywatcher: Didn't you just get done telling me that the Asteroid Lucifier wasn't the evil one :D

Like everything else in astrology, there are two sides to this coin. How it behaves depends on the context of the chart. In my chart, it makes an exact sextile to Venus so Lucifer tends to be well behaved. In a different environment, it acts differently. I have gotten into the habit of including Lucifer in event charts to see if there is a common thread; its position in the chart for the Hiroshima blast was instructive, I thought.

Let us hope that Lucifer acts more like "the light-bearer" than the flash of an explosion. The next president of the United States has Lucifer conjunct his natal Sun.
 

Awakened_Pisces

Well-known member
I haven't noticed where Lucifier sextiled/trined/opposed in my charrt at all. All I noticed was so highly and proudly he was arched at 29 degrees in Libra(Natally). I wonder who you're referring too. Lucifer conjunct the Natal Sun. I would think that's a little too bright for the eye of the beholder haha.
 

skywatcher1221

Well-known member
Confusedpisces said:
I haven't noticed where Lucifier sextiled/trined/opposed in my charrt at all. All I noticed was so highly and proudly he was arched at 29 degrees in Libra(Natally). I wonder who you're referring too. Lucifer conjunct the Natal Sun. I would think that's a little too bright for the eye of the beholder haha.

My fault for being oblique with Mercury retrograde. That's Barack Obama with the Sun-Lucifer conjunction.
 

Awakened_Pisces

Well-known member
Really. I did a transit chart for election day and it didn't look conjunct. Is it a natal conjunction? The Light Bearer Lucifer in Conjunction with the Sun. Probably speaks true to his canny words and his ability to understand things. Does it also mean he has the ability to lie out of his mouth whenever he chooses?
 

skywatcher1221

Well-known member
Confusedpisces said:
Really. I did a transit chart for election day and it didn't look conjunct. Is it a natal conjunction? The Light Bearer Lucifer in Conjunction with the Sun. Probably speaks true to his canny words and his ability to understand things. Does it also mean he has the ability to lie out of his mouth whenever he chooses?

That's a natal conjunction. As to your second question -- he is a politician and he came up through the Chicago Machine. Obama is no babe in the woods. FactCheck.org recently surveyed both campaigns and found each equally guilty of distorting the facts.

Try this for an Election Day chart. It is when and where the voting really starts. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2642&d=1222724872

Mars conjoins the IC and it squares Neptune. It looks like fraud is abroad in the land.
 
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skywatcher1221

Well-known member
AquarianEssence said:
Well, I see a good way to identify the attacker here. Uranus is at the solstice point of US Sun and the ascendant is square the solstice point, separating. Sun ruling the MC fits the executive order and country that was behind it. Mars, the ruling planet of the US ascendant is trine the solstice point of that ascendant, with Pluto separating a square not long ago, and in a critical degree fitting the ascendant too. This might be a good way to check the identity of the 911 attackers and others. How appropriate Lucifer is at the Aries point joined by Venus who is Lucifer in this chart. And, nuclear power is now used to produce light.

I was impressed by your ability to sleuth with solstice points! Maybe you could have a stab at solving the mystery of who fired first to ignite the American Revolution. The first shot rang out just before sunrise, which occurs at 4:58 AM EST in these parts. From the looks of the chart (attached) and knowing how it all turned out, I'd say an American fired first. A local legend, passed down through the generations, maintains the first shot was fired by an American crouching beside his house, not on the battlefield.

The opposition of Pluto and Juno is relevant. The American-born wife of the British military governor was a rebel spy. When she came under suspicion, her husband packed her off to Britain and she spent the rest of her life in exile.
 

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AquarianEssence

Well-known member
Hmmmm. If the first shot was at 4:58:15, only 15 seconds after sunrise, then the ascendant is the exact square to the antiscia (21Cancer05) of US Uranus (8Gem55), ruling the revolution or rebellion 11th house. Now, a square would seek to block the revolution so this is the first hint that England might have taken the first shot. But Mars rules both Aries and Scorpio. Uranus that day was the antiscion of Sun, void of course, a good time to make a sneak attack. Sun represents royalty. Now one thing I read gives Aries to England but it makes much more sense to me to give her Leo because of the original 3 lions on their coat of arms. But regardless if we give her Aries or Leo, England fits the agressor ascendant. Mars disposits Sun and is in Leo, in the house and sign of the king in a degree that shows a secret plan. Pluto also shares this plan, showing the Minitmen knew weeks before of the plan. The 11th cusp is the antiscion of the 8th cusp reminding me of the statement again, "Give me liberty or give me death" One is the sacred mirror of the other, and shows our ascendant and Moon, in my developing opinion.

Moon is calling attention to the country overseas, having just made a contraparallel to Jupiter ruling the 9th. Jupiter rules the number 3, connected to 3 lions. The UK coat of arms has a unicorn on it, by the way, quite fitting Sag too. And the glyph looks a lot like the red cross on the white background of the flag.

There are two closely applying aspects, Mercury opposing Saturn and Moon contraparallel Venus. Saturn is applying back to Mercury too. This would be the militia, 6th confronting the proclaimed authority, Saturn. Mercury is faster and applying first so I'd say he shot first but in self defense, protecting the military equipment. Neither of these feel like they could be the shot though because they are in slow houses. To me if feels like Sun opposing Pluto as the last aspect which could be minutes or seconds as the fastest time possible. This would also support Leo square Scorpio as countries. Sun being square the antiscion of Uranus fits the exlposive shot. So I say England or the crown took the first shot.

Mars trine Sun, agression that is loyal to the throne.
 
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