USA charts - the ultimate debate

[Shanti]

Highly recommend looking at Gary Lorentzen's charts I posted at #335, #336 and #337 above. He is a professor of American History and a mundane astrologer so his work should have credibility.

I have not heard of this chart before and will probably check it out later. Thanks.

 

[Shanti]

These are the Solar returns for the 9/11 2001 Terror attacks in New York,

I have not looked at this before and...yes I am impressed again.
(and the progressions have Mars conjunct MC and progressed ascendant square progressed Uranus
in the Regulus chart).

*Regulus solar return to the left.
Uranus conjunct MC is sudden events. Uranus is modern ruler of aircraft.
And Mars conjunct Descendent is clearly the attack.

Sibley Solar return on the right

Venus angular on the ascendant.
Neptune on MC. Sounds more like peace agreements or artistic new trends or
something.
( But I am aware of one of the main arguments for Sibley chart is the transit of Pluto on ascendant for this
terror attack event.)
something.

 

[Diem11]

THIS is in my opinion the real chart of the US. The Lee Compromise was initiated, and the first step was declaring independence from Great Britain.

Notice the Moon/Pluto conjunction? The world began undergoing comparatively vertiginous transformations with the founding of the US.

 

[DC80]

Highly recommend looking at Gary Lorentzen's charts I posted at #335, #336 and #337 above. He is a professor of American History and a mundane astrologer so his work should have credibility.

He's not a very good professor and he's wrong about everything.

July 2nd through the 5th were non-events. Nothing happened. That is undisputed historical fact.

Yes, in 1870 Congress declared July 4th as a holiday. That is historical fact but it is not proof that the Declaration was signed on July 4th. It only proves Congress chose that date.

Congress chose that date based on a misunderstood statement in Thomas Jefferson's autobiography:

“The declaration was reported by the commee., agreed to by the house, and signed by every member present except Mr. Dickinson.”

Jefferson began working on his autobiography on January 6th, 1821 according to his own notes.

That is 45 years after-the-fact. Jefferson is trying to recall a non-event because it was just another ordinary routine business day for the Continental Congress during the week of July 2nd-5th. How good do you think his memory is?

Not very good. Not bad, but not very good. You have to understand that one reason Jefferson began writing his autobiography is because two newspapers (the Philadelphia Union and the Federal Republican) attacked him and disputed his claim that he wrote the Declaration. Did Jefferson write the Declaration? As Clinton would say, that depends on the definition of "write." We know for a fact it was drafted by committee so Jefferson was taking dictation which is not the same thing as authoring.

The error everyone makes is conflating "every member present" with "every member" because not every member was there and we know that for a fact.

If you're using the Declaration, then you're just plain wrong because:

First, Jefferson kept what were known as the Rough Journal, the Corrected Journal, and the Secret Journal of Congress and there is no mention of signing on July 2nd, 4th or 5th
Second, the Rough Journal has the printed names, not the signed names, of only John Hancock and Charles Thomson
Third, no signed copy dated or datable to July 4th exists. If you know where it is, then please do the righteous honorable thing and contact the US National Archives and tell them where it is (and you will be richer than Richey Rich and Bill Gates combined)
Fourth, we know that July 9th, John Adams wrote in his journal that “As soon as an American Seal is prepared, I conjecture the Declaration will be subscribed by all the members” which is proof it wasn't signed on July 4th
Fifth, we know that Elbridge Gerry wrote in his diary on July 21st, “Pray subscribe for me the Declaration of Independence if the same is to be signed as proposed”
Sixth, the four delegates from New York received a message on July 2nd ordering them not to sign the Declaration and they promptly left Philadelphia the next day to go back to New York and then they came back to Philadelphia on July 15th so there is no possible way they could have signed on July 4th.
Seventh, there are absolutely no letters, journals or diaries of any members stating they signed on July 4th. I know it may be hard for some of you to understand this, but up through the early 1900s people who knew how to read and write kept daily journals or diaries. It's sad we don't teach our kids that because it's a really good practice. The VA stresses it and they even give us nice journals to write what we did and what we thought (because we're all messed up in the head). None of those men mention July 4th. The ones who do mention signing all say August 2nd.
Eighth, the entry in the Journals of Congress for July 4th say that a decision was made to authenticate and print the Declaration
Ninth, the entry in the Journals of Congress for July 19th state that the Declaration be fairly engrossed on parchment and signed by every member of Congress.
Finally, two copies of the Declaration were signed on August 2nd but I have no idea of the time and even if I knew I wouldn't tell.

So everyone using the Sibley Chart is wrong and I'm way smarter than your esteemed professor.

Even if you knew the time for August 2nd, at most what you have is a conception chart. Or an engagement chart. Do people who get engaged get married? Usually, but not always and the engagement chart should tell you when they do, and if not, then why not just like a conception chart will tell you if the child will be born and the circumstances of that.

At most, a Declaration chart will only tell you if they're successful in gaining independence and all the gory details.

If you want a USA chart then you have three possible choices:

1) the date/time the 1st Continental Congress met
2) the date/time the 2nd Continental Congress met
3) the date/time the US drew its first breath, which would be around 9:00 am on March 2, 1781

So, the US got a new constitution. Did you throw out your birth chart and cast a new one for the date/time of your high school graduation?

Why not? You got a piece of paper. Obviously, a piece of paper changes everything. If you didn't throw out your birth chart and cast a new one then your position is hypocritical and contradictory and you need to astrologically justify why you didn't cast a new birth chart.

When you graduated college, did you throw out the birth chart you cast for the date/time of your high school graduation and cast a new birth chart for you? Why not? You got another piece of paper.

If you didn't throw out your birth chart and cast a new one then your position is hypocritical and contradictory and you need to justify that astrologically.

When a child is adopted do you throw out the birth chart and cast a new one? Why not?

When a woman marries and changes her name do you cast a new birth chart for her? Why not? She changed her name. Ooooh name change. New chart.

I notice a lot of jack-hammering. People trying to force interpretation into the wrong chart. Not cool.

You can avoid all that by using a tried and true method. Take the year of founding for any country. Cast an Aries ingress chart for that year. Whatever sign is rising is the sign that represents that country.

Example: 1781 for America gives Sagittarius rising. Now cast a Mars/Saturn conjunction in Sagittarius (occurring about every 30 years) and that will tell you all you need to know by profecting the chart.

For the interim years, follow these rules:

1) cast a chart for the lunation that occurs just before the Aries ingress
a) profect that chart or cast lunar returns (either/both are good)
b) follow the distributions (not all transiting planets are operative)

2) check the ephemeris or planets in the chart because if a planet goes stationary between the lunation and the ingress then cast the chart for the date/time that planet goes stationary. If more than one planet goes stationary then cast it for planet closest to the ingress
a) profect that chart or cast lunar returns (either/both are good)
b) follow the distributions (not all transiting planets are operative)

3) lunations are often eclipses so follow the eclipse rules:
a) a solar eclipse must be in the sign of your country or it has no effect (just like it must be in the ascending sign in your birth chart)
b) the eclipse must be above the earth in the chart to have any effect (same with your birth chart)
c) for lunar eclipses the Moon must be in the sign of the eclipse and above the earth (same for your birth chart)

 

[david starling]

DC, if you don't mind saying, what's your best choice for a U.S.A. chart?

 

[JUPITERASC]

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/for...saturn-conjunction-signs.148228/#post-1249758

The US takes its "first breath" on March 2, 1781 with the "united states in Congress assembled" which assembled at about 9:00 am. Yes, the Wikifantasy with its fantasy alternative history says March 1 but the good news is we don't have to throw down over the date.
We just need to know 1781.

What about the Constitution? What about it?
We follow basic astrological principles even when we don't want to.
So, we'll cast the one and only Aries Ingress we will ever need for the US for the year 1781

and we get this.View attachment 106766

The rising sign of this chart is Sagittarius and that is the sign that represents the US.

From this point forward, to know the fate of the US, we will cast the Mars-Saturn Conjunction in Sagittarius which happens about every 30 years, and you can tell from this chart there was a recent conjunction. Why don't we use Cancer? Because Cancer does not represent the US. Cancer does represent the fate of Islam and Muslims but not the Arab or Persian Empires since they are defunct, but it would represent any country whose sign is Cancer.

Each year we will cast a chart for the New/Full Moon closest to the Aries Ingress but we will not use the Aries Ingress which is a nothing-burger.

The sign of Scorpio represents Britain (see Aries Ingress for 1066 CE) and look at Scorpio Jupiter stationary in the 12th place in aversion to the Asc. Jupiter rules the Asc but is cadent, out-of-sect, in the 12th place, stationary....literally stuck....and has no control over the Asc being in aversion. That pretty much sums it up.

If you're British, you'll cast the Mars-Saturn Conjunction in Scorpio (again about every 30 years) to understand the fate of Britain but for this particular year you would not use the closest New/Full Moon to the Aries Ingress. Instead, you would cast a chart for the date/time Scorpio Jupiter goes stationary because that has precedence over the New/Full Moon and because stationary Jupiter is in Scorpio.

Saturn and Mercury are also stationary but because they are not in Scorpio and because you're British, you don't care. If you're an American, you would care about stationary Sagittarius Saturn and cast a chart for the date/time Saturn went on station but you don't care about stationary Mercury or Jupiter. If your country is represented by Aries, then you would cast a chart for the date/time Mercury went stationary in Aries but you don't care about stationary Jupiter or Saturn.

You will always use the actual conjunction of Mars-Saturn by degree/minute and not some fantasy average over mean motions.

 

[david starling]

March 2nd 1781, @~9:00 a.m. Philadelphia(?)

This has a different place & year for the 1st Congress -

The First Federal Congress First Federal Congress

Fireworks Splice HTML

www.archives.gov

 

[JUPITERASC]

From this point forward, to know the fate of the US, we will cast the Mars-Saturn Conjunction in Sagittarius which happens about every 30 years, and you can tell from this chart there was a recent conjunction.

i.e.
24 August 2016 - 07:27:00 (EDT, DST)
Universal Time (UT/GMT):v24 August 2016 - 11:27:00
Local Sidereal Time (LST): 04:39:01
House system, Terms: Whole Sign system, Egyptian
Latitude, Longitude: 39°57'N, 75°10'W
City: Philadelphia
Country: United States (US), PA

 

[david starling]

The "birth chart" for the U.S.A. is of most interest. The first meeting of the first Congress under the Constitution is a good candidate.

But, so is the birth chart for the Constitution itself.

 

[John Thompson]

DC80 The British charts do not start in 1066. Try using the coronation of Edgar in 973AD.

 

[Monk]

March 2nd 1781, @~9:00 a.m. Philadelphia(?)

This has a different place & year for the 1st Congress -

The First Federal Congress First Federal Congress

Fireworks Splice HTML

www.archives.gov

This is correct!
New York become the Capitol for a short while on 13th September 1788, they would use that date wouldn't they?

http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/1788/september_13_1788_44209.html

Midnight Paran Day Marker, at Location Alnilam was rising in the East, graph on attachment.

 

[Monk]

We then look at your link:-
The Congress of the United States established by the new Constitution met for the first time at New York City’s Federal Hall on March 4, 1789. It is arguably the most important Congress in U.S. history. To this new legislature fell the responsibility of passing all the legislation needed to implement the new system, solving the difficult political questions left by the Constitutional Convention, setting up the rules and procedures of the House and Senate, and establishing the roles of its officers such as Speaker of the House and President of the Senate.

The First Federal Congress First Federal Congress

Fireworks Splice HTML

www.archives.gov

You will note all Presidents took Oath on 4 March up to Truman, What do you think that will show????

List of presidents of the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Monk]

Hi David,
The First Congress started on 4th March 1789 in the Capitol of the time, New York, Egyptian sunrise day marker chosen with Alnilam on I.C. by paran, which is why they chose that day, graph below:-

 

[Monk]

The second U.S. Congress started on 4 March 1791 in Philadelphia, AGAIN ON 4 MARCH 1781, but in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the same Sun rising with Alnilam on I.C. applies here:-

2nd United States Congress - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Monk]

The Third Congress was again in Philadelphia on 4 March 1793, which tells the tale why they picked this date:-

3rd United States Congress - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DC80]

March 2nd 1781, @~9:00 a.m. Philadelphia(?)

This has a different place & year for the 1st Congress -

The First Federal Congress First Federal Congress

Fireworks Splice HTML

www.archives.gov

That's when Congress first met under the new Constitution.

When you graduated high school you ripped up your birth chart, threw it away and cast a new chart for the date/time/location you received your high school diploma, right?

But, of course, you did! You got a new piece of paper and that changes everything, right?

For Britain, there's a reason why we reject the 937 Chart and accept the 1066 Chart and reject all other subsequent charts.

What happened in 1066? England got a new king. No, that's pedestrian. Merely incidental.

In case you forgot, a foreign power (namely the Norman French) invaded and conquered England. And they didn't just get a new king. Everyone was compelled to take surnames. The new language was Norman French.

I always found it amusing English is classified as a Germanic language and yet 90% of the vocabular is Latin-based. Have you not read the numerous studies? Students familiar with Latin score significantly higher on the verbal part of the SAT and I don't mean a few measly points I mean they consistently score 750-800. That's why there's schools like Covington Latin and others that teach Latin from kindergarten to grade 12. When they see veritas they immediately think verily, verify, veritable, veracity and so select "truth" as the correct answer.

The country got a new legal code. We still use the Norman-French law code now called English Common Law and we still use in camera, a priori, in loco parentis, prima facie, guardian ad litem, bona fide, certiorari, mandamus, de facto, de jure, de novo, ex parte, ex post facto, and we still file Motions in Limine etc.

The Britons, Angles and Saxons of the nobility and the landed gentry were dispossessed of their lands which were handed over to Norman-French, the other Britons (from Brittany), the Flems (Dutch/Belgian) and the Welsh nobility and landed gentry.

Those are wide-scaled whole-sale sweeping cultural changes that had a lasting and permanent effect to this very day.

What happened afterward that even remotely compares? Nothing.

Britain gained territory, lost territory, gained colonies, lost colonies, changed dynasties, changed names but none of those are reasons to cast a new chart.

When a client has a child (gains territory/colony) you don't throw out their birth chart and cast a new one.

When a client has a child that dies or moves out of the house (loss of territory/colony) you don't throw out their chart and cast a new one.

When a client changes their whether through marriage or divorce (women having their maiden names restored) or other reasons you don't throw out their birth chart and cast a new one.

If you all cannot see how illogical, hypocritical and unsupportable your position really is then its because you lack objectivity which means you should take the moral high road and bow out of mundane astrology.

It's like the moron who (using the Sibley Chart) predicted the total collapse of the US Dollar and convinced all of his followers to convert their dollars to crypto-currency but somehow didn't see the collapse of crypto-currency so he and all his followers lost their shirts which is why his website been in limbo for a while (and he blames it on a government conspiracy). He should be shunned by the astrological community. Sadly, he isn't.

And Campion? If you didn't notice his treatment of Western countries is vastly different than that of the Eastern Europe and People of Color which has the foul odor of ethnocentricity and racism and neither have any place in astrology. Nearly all of his charts are wrong. As far as being a "historian" he sucks because if he doesn't understand that nothing happened on July 4th it's because he doesn't want to.

So the US has a new constitution. So what? Big freaking deal. What changed? Nothing fundamental changed. According to Campion, the a new US chart should have been cast when the Philippines gained independence in 1946 and another new chart when Alaska became a state and another new chart when Hawai'i became a state but then Campion's "rules" illogically do not apply to the US.

I almost forgot. We should have been casting a flurry of charts when the Southern States became independent and then again 1865-1868 when the Southern States were re-admitted to the Union, you know, because they were a separate country they had to be re-admitted.

Like I said, Campion is all over the charts because he operates on emotion instead of astrology.

When the time of the founding of any entity, be it a country, province, state, county, city, company, or group, is unknown but you know the place and the year there are methods of casting charts.

 

[DC80]

This is my favorite quote from Robert Hand:

It is not enough, as many astrologers do, to proliferate predictive techniques until everything is explained (after the fact, of course), with every event, every characteristic period in a native's life explained using a different astrological technique. Not only is such an approach chaotic from an esthetic point of view, but lacking method, it cannot describe events before the fact even in general terms. Also, the proliferation of methods means that many apparent "hits" by these techniques are really quite accidental and have no basis in astrological principle. They certainly do not 'prove' that astrology "works."

You can substitute "country" for "native's life" and that pretty much sums up this ghastly thread.

 

[david starling]

For humans it's easy to distinguish between conception ("zygote") and actual birth ("first breath"). Not so with nations.

 

[JUPITERASC]

This is my favorite quote from Robert Hand:
It is not enough, as many astrologers do, to proliferate predictive techniques until everything is explained (after the fact, of course), with every event, every characteristic period in a native's life explained using a different astrological technique. Not only is such an approach chaotic from an esthetic point of view, but lacking method, it cannot describe events before the fact even in general terms. Also, the proliferation of methods means that many apparent "hits" by these techniques are really quite accidental and have no basis in astrological principle. They certainly do not 'prove' that astrology "works."

Indeed

You can substitute "country" for "native's life" and that pretty much sums up this ghastly thread.

.

 

[DC80]

To help you people do mundane the right way, here's the significators and no you can't use Rex Bill's rulerships because he's an idiot. Contrary to Rex Bill's blathering nonsense, Jupiter does not now nor has it ever represented government.

For 2,500 years government has been and continues to be Saturn and the ruler of the 10th sign.

Saturn is the government, religious leaders, the elderly, farmers and rural people and people who manage or deal in property

Jupiter: the cabinet, congress, CEOs, the uber-wealthy, social leaders, judges, lesser ranking clergy and rebels

If you're wondering why Jupiter represents rebels, think. Think. Think.

What is one of Jupiter's significations? Money. Weapons don't fall out of the sky. I was in Iraq for a very, very long time, longer than I cared to be and I never saw weapons fall out of the sky. Ammunition, yes. Weapons, no.

Who bank-rolls revolts, rebellions, insurrections, insurgencies, and terrorist actions? That would be people of high social class, you know, the wealthy and the elite with lots of money. You can see how wrong Rex Bills is.

Mars: soldiers, generals, the government's allies and rebels against the government

Sun: heads-of-state and honored people

Venus: women and the entertainment world

Mercury: Lower-ranking business leaders, authors, educators, children, lesser-ranking cabinet members

Moon: The common people, merchants, women of lower class, and mediators

ASC: The common people

MC Point: also heads-of-state

You might be asking yourself how in the world do I know who is what is who?

You cannot use your base chart for this and that is also true in natal (the natal chart is a base chart). So you have a subsidiary chart and that's going to be your primary and secondary method (solar return). If you have the actual time for the creation of a country, and, no, "midnight" is not a valid time, you can do the New Moon before the Spring Equinox Chart and then do your lunations.

The reason midnight is not a valid time is the same reason we don't use the time the ratified Articles of Confederation went into effect.

Nothing happens until it happens.

Does every Declaration of Independence end up with a new country? Does every engagement end up with a wedding? Does every pregnancy end up with a live birth? No, because nothing happens until it happens. Most of you don't even know the half of it. It took 3 and 1/2 years to ratify the Articles because the states hated each other and didn't wanna do it but they feared Britain more so it's like a shot-gun wedding. Even then a couple of states that ratified earlier were thinking of rescinding their ratification and bowing out. So, there is not until they all meet on March 2nd. If you want to know the congress under the Articles accomplished so little it's because they need 9 states for a quorum and they could never get 9 states to show up. Oh, yeah, they all showed up for the Northwest Territory Act but that's because they were greedy and thought there was something in it for them. Shay's Rebellion? They couldn't get 9 states to show up because 5 states were having a con-fab to figure out how to ram it to the other states using destructive taxes and import tariffs which is the reason why there's a Commerce Clause in the US Constitution.

Lunations. Everyone does them wrong thanks to the Arabs and Persians. However many degrees Moon is from Sun in your base chart that relationship must be maintained for the life of the chart.

Sun if Moon is 63° from Sun in your mundane chart or natal chart or annual chart then obviously that was a new Moon so you cast a new Moon chart then use the dynamic/animate function to move Moon to a position 63° away from Sun and voila! You have your lunation chart. If Moon is 210° away from Sun obviously that was a Full Moon so cast a Full Moon chart and use the dynamic/animate function to move Moon to a position 210° from Sun and that is your lunation chart.

Whatever you're doing in your subsidiary charts you need to know and understand the signs. When your significator falls into Gemini, Virgo, Libra, the first 10° of Sagittarius or Aquarius those are human signs and you know you're dealing with a person, but who?

Look at the bounds your significator is in. In natal predictive work Saturn is not just someone older than you it's someone who's at least 1 generation older than you. Jupiter is older than you but still within your generation. That would be like a Boomer II Cohort so someone in the Boomer I Cohort is older than them but still in the same generation or a Gen X born in 1978 then we're talking about someone born in 1970 or 1967. Mars is your peer +/- 3 years. Venus is younger than you but still within the same generation. Mercury is someone in the generation below yours.

In mundane work Moon in the bounds of Mercury would be merchants; in the bounds of Venus is women; and in the bounds of Jupiter would be mediators since Jupiter represents law and not government and how stupid is Rex Bills not to understand the difference.

Mars in the bounds of Saturn is soldiers (the grunts); in the bounds of Jupiter is generals; in the bounds of Venus is allies; and in the bounds of Mars would be rebels.

The bound ruler needs to aspect your significator. Mine doesn't! Hold onto your butts, it's not the end of the world. What star aspects your bound ruler and your significator?

You're doing natal predictive work and your significator is in a human sign in the bounds of Jupiter in aversion but Venus aspects Jupiter and your significator. What does that tell you? It's not just an older person, it's an older woman.

What if it isn't a human sign? Well, then it's not a person, it's a thing. Everyone goes to such great lengths to make astrology so difficult for no good reason. Signs. Please use them.

For indications of hostility look for:

Mars as the year-ruler and being on an angle, especially the 4th place
Mars conjunct (6°) or square the Tail
Mars square Jupiter and Saturn
Mars peregrine and angular or succedent and with or conjunct Saturn
In a diurnal chart, Mars square/opposition Sun
Mars in the 8th place
Mars as year-ruler and being peregrine or in the 8th or 12th in aversion to benefics
Saturn and Mars angular and in human or violent signs
Jupiter opposition Saturn

One problem I notice with many on this forum is very rigid thinking. Rigid thinking like the "harsh aspect nonsense" has no place in astrolgoy.

War is not limited to a formal declaration. It comes in many forms. Technically, the US was a war with Iraq from 1991 to 2014 because even though the US didn't have boots on the ground, they were still bombing Iraq.

Economic sanctions are a form of hostility and they're nothing new. Historically, countries would blockade the ports of other countries to punish them economically to avoid actual war or as a prelude to war and then there have been actual trade wars.

There are the proxy wars, like the current conflict in Ukraine.