08-06-2008, 01:56 AM
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: On a web-site far, far away...
Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate
Originally Posted by emilyelizabeth
Any more thoughts on the USA natal chart since this writing? We were waiting for some time to pass...
Developments worthy of note?
I reject the 1776 date. The two primary reasons are that:
1) If astrology is a science, then it must act like a science and be consistent in its application. If we create new natal charts for countries like Iran, Russia, Romania, China etc, because they have new constitutions, then we must be consistent and create a new natal chart for the US when it changes constitutions; and
2) setting aside ethnocentricity and romantic fantasy, it's historically inaccurate. The Declaration of Independence did nothing more than create 13 separate countries, and it repeatedly says so.
The biggest problem seems to be confusing the phrase "United States" which NEVER appears in the Declaration of Independence with the phrase "united States" which appears a couple of times.
The colonies were united only in their desire to be independent of Britain. They had no desire to be unified. Later, when they did unifiy, it was solely for the purposes of self-defence and the maintenance of diplomatic relations with other countries. Each state continued to print its own currency and run its own affairs independently.
In looking for a "better" natal chart for the US, I've researched a number of legitimate dates and times through 1791, and oddly, nearly all have produced a chart with Sagittarius rising.
I'm convinced that Sagittarius is the correct rising sign and history proves it quite well.
For example, with Virgo on the MC and Libra on the 11th House cusp, we find the early US on friendly terms with native Americans, purchasing land rather than taking it by force, or entering into treaties with native Americans which the US does not violate. We also find the "peace at any price" Libra government paying huge bribes to Britain and France not to harass US commerical or naval vessels, and the US pays an annual tribute to the Barabary Coast States of $Millions (in 1790 US Dollars not adjusted US Dollars) for nearly a decade to not attack US merchant ships in the Mediterranean.
Then suddenly things change. The US stops paying bribes to Britain and France and ends up at war with Britain, and stops paying the annual tribute to the Barbary Coast States, sending the marines to invade those countries (that's the "...shores of Tripoli..." part of the Marine Hymn). The attitude toward native Americans has changed, too, and the US is more violent, willing to use force to drive native Americans off of land rather than purchasing it or negotiating treaties for its use.
In a Sagittarius rising chart, that's easily explained by a progressed or directed Ascendant and changing house cusps, as well as the progression of planets.
The outer planet transits also match a Sagittarius rising chart beautifully. Uranus in the 4th House when the US experiences bizarre weather phenomenon that destroys crops and causes strife can be seen in the 1930s, again in the 1840s, and progressing the chart prior to birth, in the 1760s, the 1680s and even the 1590s.
The transit of Pluto fits exceptionally well, not only with respect to the Great Depression and other significant events, but also for delienating generations of Americans. Between the "Baby Boomers" and the "Me Generation," the "Tweeners" are clearly seen as Neptune changes houses.
I've had to reject numerous charts, but I'm having great success with the current chart I'm using. It's based on the passage of a law creating the Constitutional Convention at "just before day's end" on June 19, 1786 at Federal Hall in New York City. "Day's end" for the Congress of the Articles of Confederation while in session was 6:00 pm (although sometimes heated debates lasted much later). The rectified birth time best fits 5:54 pm.
Chart is marked by a Kite configuration with a Grand Trine between Neptune, Pluto and Mercury, with Mars in the 8th House opposing Pluto and sextiling Mercury and Neptune. The other outstanding feature is Sun in the 7th House square Midheaven (all orbs about 1 degree). Another interesting aspect is Saturn conjunct Pluto in the 2nd House (orb about 2 degrees).
I've worked quite a bit on US natal charts because I have a tremendous curiousity for the future and finding the correct birth time is probably the Holy Grail of mundane astrology.