USA charts - the ultimate debate

JUPITERASC

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The actual date of independence is 2 July 1776, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Resolution. The vote took place at noon and last 15 minutes.

Chart with dwarf planets:

2wmebl.jpg
08-06-2008, 01:56 AM
BobZemco
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilyelizabeth
Any more thoughts on the USA natal chart since this writing? We were waiting for some time to pass...

Developments worthy of note?


I reject the 1776 date. The two primary reasons are that:

1) If astrology is a science, then it must act like a science and be consistent in its application. If we create new natal charts for countries like Iran, Russia, Romania, China etc, because they have new constitutions, then we must be consistent and create a new natal chart for the US when it changes constitutions; and

2) setting aside ethnocentricity and romantic fantasy, it's historically inaccurate. The Declaration of Independence did nothing more than create 13 separate countries, and it repeatedly says so.

The biggest problem seems to be confusing the phrase "United States" which NEVER appears in the Declaration of Independence with the phrase "united States" which appears a couple of times.

The colonies were united only in their desire to be independent of Britain. They had no desire to be unified. Later, when they did unifiy, it was solely for the purposes of self-defence and the maintenance of diplomatic relations with other countries. Each state continued to print its own currency and run its own affairs independently.

In looking for a "better" natal chart for the US, I've researched a number of legitimate dates and times through 1791, and oddly, nearly all have produced a chart with Sagittarius rising.

I'm convinced that Sagittarius is the correct rising sign and history proves it quite well.

For example, with Virgo on the MC and Libra on the 11th House cusp, we find the early US on friendly terms with native Americans, purchasing land rather than taking it by force, or entering into treaties with native Americans which the US does not violate. We also find the "peace at any price" Libra government paying huge bribes to Britain and France not to harass US commerical or naval vessels, and the US pays an annual tribute to the Barabary Coast States of $Millions (in 1790 US Dollars not adjusted US Dollars) for nearly a decade to not attack US merchant ships in the Mediterranean.

Then suddenly things change. The US stops paying bribes to Britain and France and ends up at war with Britain, and stops paying the annual tribute to the Barbary Coast States, sending the marines to invade those countries (that's the "...shores of Tripoli..." part of the Marine Hymn). The attitude toward native Americans has changed, too, and the US is more violent, willing to use force to drive native Americans off of land rather than purchasing it or negotiating treaties for its use.

In a Sagittarius rising chart, that's easily explained by a progressed or directed Ascendant and changing house cusps, as well as the progression of planets.

The outer planet transits also match a Sagittarius rising chart beautifully. Uranus in the 4th House when the US experiences bizarre weather phenomenon that destroys crops and causes strife can be seen in the 1930s, again in the 1840s, and progressing the chart prior to birth, in the 1760s, the 1680s and even the 1590s.

The transit of Pluto fits exceptionally well, not only with respect to the Great Depression and other significant events, but also for delienating generations of Americans. Between the "Baby Boomers" and the "Me Generation," the "Tweeners" are clearly seen as Neptune changes houses.

I've had to reject numerous charts, but I'm having great success with the current chart I'm using. It's based on the passage of a law creating the Constitutional Convention at "just before day's end" on June 19, 1786 at Federal Hall in New York City. "Day's end" for the Congress of the Articles of Confederation while in session was 6:00 pm (although sometimes heated debates lasted much later). The rectified birth time best fits 5:54 pm.

Chart is marked by a Kite configuration with a Grand Trine between Neptune, Pluto and Mercury, with Mars in the 8th House opposing Pluto and sextiling Mercury and Neptune. The other outstanding feature is Sun in the 7th House square Midheaven (all orbs about 1 degree). Another interesting aspect is Saturn conjunct Pluto in the 2nd House (orb about 2 degrees).

I've worked quite a bit on US natal charts because I have a tremendous curiousity for the future and finding the correct birth time is probably the Holy Grail of mundane astrology.
 

JUPITERASC

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08-06-2008, 06:06 AM
BobZemco
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Sky
Hi Bob,

I've seen the chart. It's a powerful chart and some things stand out quite a lot to me. I like it.

But, I am not expert on American History. Please can you explain the date a little more in the context of the formation of a powerful Nation, Unified, sovereign, and basically a unified force. Can you contextualise that precise day?


Not really, except to say that debate had taken place over several days regarding inherent weaknesses in the Articles and the need to make changes. Some ideas were kicked around, including primitive drafts of proposed changes to the Articles. The idea of a constitutional convention was proposed, but they held off setting a date for the convention until discussing it with the state legislatures (as their support would be needed). A date was set for the convention several months later, it was held, and everyone knows (most) of the rest of the story.

The founding of a nation is something that we as astrologers have to work out, and it will be quite subjective to some extent. I mean how you know when a national consciouness arises? Does it even matter? If we base it on documents (charters, declarations or constitutions), oftentimes that's nothing more than a formalization of something that already exists (think of two people living together for 10 years who then get married or two entities who conduct business on a verbal contract for a time then prepare a written contract). I think we can develop a much better standard that's more universal (scientific) than the one that exists now. Campion makes some valid points, and I try to faithfully follow his logic.

I don't necessarily reject all charts, I just think they're improperly applied, like the Constitution Chart. If it's rectified correctly, it should show the passage of every amendment to the Constitution, including those that failed (like the ERA), significant legal challenges to the Constitution (ie Mapp v Ohio, Escobedo v Arizona and Miranda v Arizona et al regarding search and seizure - 4th Amendment), and restrictions or expansions of constitutional rights, but it wouldn't tell you much about the US, or its people or government.


 

JUPITERASC

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02-18-2011, 10:21 PM
BobZemco
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate
Honestly, I just don't understand the obsession with the 1776 dates. It defies logic, reality, historical fact and astrological universalism.

The phrase "United States" never occurs anywhere in the Declaration of Independence. That is an historical fact.

Jefferson states clearly and in no uncertain terms that the purpose of the Declaration is to create 13 independent countries, with 13 independent governments, economies and currencies.

There isn't a shred of evidence to support claims that one single country was created.

The Sibley Chart is a propaganda chart. A propaganda document. Its intent was to propagandize.


Why? The vast overwhelming majority of colonists, well more than 70% did not support the "revolution."

That's documented fact.

More than 35% were Tories and supported the king. Another 35+% either didn't care or weren't thrilled with either the king or the rebels.

So when the British withdraw, how do you keep the 7 out of 10 Colonists who didn't support you from taking up arms and engaging in another civil war?

Simple. Spread propaganda and disinformation. That's where the Sibley Chart comes in. Look? See? It was divine providence, God's Will, in the heavens, in the stars, the Universe decreed it, it was destiny (or density), the Fickle Finger of Fate, there were two birds in a tree...

... it was meant to be
.

That's how.

And the funny thing is, the very same people who froth at the mouth over the 1776 dates, then get bent out of shape if you don't do a new chart for Iraq's "new" government with Faisal, and then another chart for Iraq's "new" government with Saddam, and then another chart for Iraq because of the "new" constitution, and new chart for Iran because of its "new" constitution, and another chart for Egypt because of Sadat's "new" government, and another new chart for Egypt because of Mubrark's "new" government, and now almost certainly another new chart for Egypt, and a new chart for Romania because of its new constitution and so on ad nauseum ad infinitum.

But suggest that a new chart should be done for the Articles of Confederation when the 13 separate independent countries actually unite, or for the later Constitution which completely altered the form of government and people look at you like you're a heretic.

People can't have it both ways.

"You have to use a new chart if a country changes governments or constitutions, but that doesn't apply to the US," is not astrology.

That sounds a lot like the nonsense on NeptunCafe and their "Chiron represents the military, but only in the natal chart of the US and for no other country."

How ridiculous is that?

Regardless, whatever the natal chart of the US is, it must have Sagittarius-rising or the Outer Planets don't track to events in US history. Uranus must be in the 1st House during a certain period, because there's no other way to explain the sub-generation running around with $14,000 worth of tattoos and body piercings charged on their parents' credit cards.

Of course, one could always adopt the position that the effects of Pluto don't occur until Pluto changes signs. One web-site does that to justify a Scorpio-rising chart for the US. They claim that when Pluto is transiting a Sign/House it merely lays the groundwork for transformation. The actual transformation takes place after Pluto moves into the next Sign/House. That's quite silly too, but it just goes to show the lengths people will go to justify anything.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Are you answering me greybread?

If so, thanks and I understand about "Electional", however I don't know if it's true about david's claim pertaining "Monk was convinced the Signing on July 4th was Electional, using Egyptian astrology, by the Masonic Order".

Is it a fact?

We don't want to transmit another fallacy to our knowledge.

yes, I've heard some "tales" about that too... don't know whether to believe it or not, though...but that Zero hour chart I produced sure would qualify for being one so 'Electionally" chosen... imho

...and it is known among some that study the esoteric and occult rather devotionally that there is a cycle of 888 years that has to do with the "Christ" or "Krishna" spirit or consciousness. and twice 888 is 1776:wink:
 

unique_astrology

Well-known member
What a coincidence that a Sidereal solar return (or a precession corrected one) using the Sibly chart, preceding the first battle of the United States Civil War [the first battle of Bull Run] would have the Sibly Sun on it's MC and the Sibly Saturn on it's East Point and the lunar eclipse on that day right on the Sibly chart Pluto.

While Fort Sumter is used as the beginning of the Civil War, the only Union casualties were from an accident which occurred as a 100 gun salute to the Union flag was being fired by the Union forces. The first major battle was First Bull Run. I propose that battle as the real beginning of the Civil War.

There were 3 eclipses (2 FM's, 1 NM) in the lunar synodic month during which the First Battle of Bull Run was fought; with the Sun and Moon of the middle eclipse being on the midpoint of the Moon from the first and third eclipses.

The first eclipse squared the Sibly Chart MC. Eclipse Saturn was 2 arc minutes in right ascension from an exact square to unprecessed Sibly Uranus.

The South Node of the second eclipse was conjunct the Sibly Chart Sun. Eclipse Saturn was 2 arc minutes in right ascension from an exact square to Sibly Uranus corrected for precession.

The third eclipse was conjunct the Sibly Chart Pluto in right ascension.

All eclipses had Neptune conjunct Sibly IC and Uranus conjunct Sibly Dsc.

The third, which occurred the same day as the battle, had transit Mars square transit Pluto in longitude.
 

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piercethevale

Well-known member
Unique_, what have you got for the 9/11 attack, which was used as a pretext for destabilizing the Middle East? Anything in the Sibley chart?

I've lately been hearing that it wasn't even real planes that hit the two towers ...and ...imho... only a fool would believe one hit the Pentagon.

What then have I heard, as of late, that did hit the twin towers you might ask?

Well, I'm glad that you might.

"Holograms".

FOR THE PURPOSE OF GREED... TO GET THAT PIPELINE BUILT ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST TO THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA.

The one that will terminate at a refinery in Syria that is already being built, ...despite the fact the USA shouldn't even be in Syria... and is protected by American troops.

Do I believe it was rather holograms?
I'll tell you this. I was told of this theory/explanation by my friend, Malakye [Whom I identify as "Mitch" in my book] and whom has natal Mercury exactly conjunct, by same Sign and degree, with my 8th House cusp [indicating that He is one from whom I have learned a great deal about the "Darkness" {and I will avow, from first hand experience, that He is an adept at many a "Dark Rite"...or they may be somewhat "Gray" at the very least.} and also a bit about all other affairs governed over by the 8th House ]. We went out, that same evening He first spoke of holograms and 9/11, to a local Native American casino and were at one of the bars having a bit of libation and another patron came in and sat a couple of seats down from us and He struck up a conversation, inquiring as to "how I was doing" playing the video keno game I was dallying with, which lead to mutual introductions, questions as to what we all did for a living... as it was obvious none of us were making a living from gambling... and I thus found out that He had been a police officer for a number of years but was running his own private security service presently. So, out of the blue, I told him that Malakye had been discussing the events of 9/11 earlier and that I would like his opinion as to what actually crashed into the two twin towers that day [as there has also been speculation that they were actual jet airplanes, just not the ones allegedly hi-jacked, and there are a few other theories that have been existent since the beginning of the time it all was first questioned...but this Hologram theory was a new one to me] The fellow's answer was, immediate and without the least bit of hesitation as to suggest to me that it is a conclusion, a conviction, He has held unequivocally for quite some length of time, but one word, and that word was "holograms".
I about pert near fell off my bar stool.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
...and let's not overlook the fact that Omar Gaddafi had made an announcement that Libya was no longer going to accept fiat currency in exchange for his nations oil and that all future purchases must be made with gold. He had just converted Libya's monetary system to the gold dinar and not long afterward Saddam Hussein made a similar announcement.

Malakye's sister converted to the Islamic faith in 2007 and married a Libyan and moved there in 2008. She has since told me that Gaddafi was nothing as like our media portrays him as to have been or as our gov't has claimed him to have as been. She says that He was a most benevolent ruler, beloved by the citizens, and whom gave so much in benefits to his people. Gasoline was 10 cents a gallon, she tells me. She had all her natural teeth replaced, an entire set of upper and lower teeth implanted, for $700 American, cash. ..and I must admit they look wonderful. Not as quite as high a quality in appearance as the top dollar implant work I've seen done here in the States, but she says they fit wonderfully, the procedure went smoothly, flawlessly, and in over ten years time now she hasn't had a single complaint about them.

That same procedure would cost how much here in the States? .
I'm paying $3.60 a gallon for gas [premium] here in the Sacramento, Calif. area.
Our U.S. Dollar is backed by only 7 cents worth of gold, as of two months ago...
...and I think I recall Malakye's sister telling me that medical and dental was "free" for natural born Libyan's at the time.

Ever see the photo that was taken of Saddam while He was being held at Guantanamo Bay?
He had such a dazed and confused look on his face... as if he was thinking to himself "WTF? I thought everything was square between us?"
...and He was the C.I.A.'s boy, there for awhile ...and I've even wondered if He had been promised that He could have Kuwait back at one time or that the USA would at least not interfere with him if He invaded it and claimed it to be a part of Iraq?
 

unique_astrology

Well-known member
It has been so long since I looked at the Sibly 911 charts I had to hunt them down and could not find any text that went with the images.

I made an album in IMGUR and uploaded the charts. After it opens use the slider on the right edge to scroll down.

The Sibly 50 charts are located to the geographic center of the 50 states.

https://imgur.com/a/k2nsxbZ
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I've lately been hearing that it wasn't even real planes that hit the two towers ...and ...imho... only a fool would believe one hit the Pentagon.

What then have I heard, as of late, that did hit the twin towers you might ask?

Well, I'm glad that you might.

"Holograms".

FOR THE PURPOSE OF GREED... TO GET THAT PIPELINE BUILT ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST TO THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA.

The one that will terminate at a refinery in Syria that is already being built, ...despite the fact the USA shouldn't even be in Syria... and is protected by American troops.

Do I believe it was rather holograms?
I'll tell you this. I was told of this theory/explanation by my friend, Malakye [Whom I identify as "Mitch" in my book] and whom has natal Mercury exactly conjunct, by same Sign and degree, with my 8th House cusp [indicating that He is one from whom I have learned a great deal about the "Darkness" {and I will avow, from first hand experience, that He is an adept at many a "Dark Rite"...or they may be somewhat "Gray" at the very least.} and also a bit about all other affairs governed over by the 8th House ]. We went out, that same evening He first spoke of holograms and 9/11, to a local Native American casino and were at one of the bars having a bit of libation and another patron came in and sat a couple of seats down from us and He struck up a conversation, inquiring as to "how I was doing" playing the video keno game I was dallying with, which lead to mutual introductions, questions as to what we all did for a living... as it was obvious none of us were making a living from gambling... and I thus found out that He had been a police officer for a number of years but was running his own private security service presently. So, out of the blue, I told him that Malakye had been discussing the events of 9/11 earlier and that I would like his opinion as to what actually crashed into the two twin towers that day [as there has also been speculation that they were actual jet airplanes, just not the ones allegedly hi-jacked, and there are a few other theories that have been existent since the beginning of the time it all was first questioned...but this Hologram theory was a new one to me] The fellow's answer was, immediate and without the least bit of hesitation as to suggest to me that it is a conclusion, a conviction, He has held unequivocally for quite some length of time, but one word, and that word was "holograms".
I about pert near fell off my bar stool.

If it was an "inside job" with our own Government complicit, it wouldn't qualify as an actual "attack" by outside agents. Might show up differently in a Chart.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
If it was an "inside job" with our own Government complicit, it wouldn't qualify as an actual "attack" by outside agents. Might show up differently in a Chart.

I've never been given want enough to have to study charts for that date as I know danm good and well there were members of high ranking political offices and of enormous influence that were complaint and some that were also actively involved in an "inside job" even to the possible extent that it was they that conceived the idea and planned it all from the start.

Given the bought and controlled mass media's complete ignoring of the objections made to the official gov't report, as to the discrepancies found within it to scientific facts, the ignoring of eye witness testimonies, the undeniable and almost ridiculously so, yet denied regardless, presence of shills on the internet that attempt to counter every legitimate question , or eye witness account in evidence, that questions or goes against the government's explanations and often with something even more absurd than that which is being questioned to begin with, I would like to know how anyone could possibly have any other conclusion than that?
 
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