USA charts - the ultimate debate


Staff member
I'm writing this post under the influence of the Moon-Uranus square. Please bear with me if this sounds too revolutionary. As it has been already stated recently, Mars' ingress in Gemini will actually fire up intellectual debates.

There're at least two main charts for the US - that are generally considered as most effective from an astrological point of view - both on Jyly 4, 1776, Philadelphia, PA, timezone LMT:
- the Sagittarius rising chart - 5:10 pm - the Sibley chart
- the Gemini rising chart - 2:13 am

I just read this text by Olivia Barclay:

"It has always been a puzzle to me that any astrologer could associate America with Sagittarius rather than Gemini. Ebenezer Sibley, not a good astrologer, seems to be the originator of such an idea. It is a country of few pedestrians, constant change of communication as on TV, short journeys by air or road. They play football with their arms and hands and demonstrated their solidarity by holding hands across the continent; also Geminian people pove to live high up (skyscrapers)."

My personal impression so far is that the Gemini rising chart is most descriptive for the American spirit and way of life, yet the Sagittarius rising chart is most accurate in terms of transits and progressions. Which one is it, then?

Finally, this duality or lack of consensus is SO descriptive for the mutable axis Gemini-Sagittarius. Gemini stands for multple items of the same kind (such as twins). In this case - charts.

Ok, I've had my say. Now, its your turn! :mrgreen:


Well-known member
Apart from the transits and progressions and apart from everything else actually,i would like to say this,as a first impression.

Saturn in the 10th house can be red as the authority in the world in the one chart
In the other chart we see the moon in 10 H aquarius,and this can be seen as promoting democracy in the world!

Well,first gonna see what others have to say about it,especially the inhabitants in this country itself!


Well-known member
Hi all,

Well to join in the debate, for me it has to be closer to the 2.13am chart. Why? because the MA/UR midpoint is at 14 of the mutables at this time whereas later at 5.10pm it slips into 15.

One of the most accurate times we have for a major event affecting the nation is the WTC 9/11 when the Asc, Mercury and Saturn were all at 14 degrees. Any planet at the same degree - whatever the angle - is resonating to the others. The Asc and Mercury were 120 degrees at 14 of air. In this case Saturn was at 14 Gemini exactly conjunct (to within a few seconds of arc) the MA/UR Ebertin says of SA=MA/UR says "violent destruction"

I notice 14 degrees in many of my charts for events in US history and it appears with amazing regularity, although one can't deny that it might do anyway with Saturn at 14 degrees whichever time you choose for 4 July charts

Leaving the 14 degrees aside though, I did note that when the spacecraft Challenger was so publicly lost on Jan 28 1986 Saturn was at 7.42 Sag - exactly opposite the 2.13am asc and just into the very public 7th

So, my vote goes with 2.13am

PS 12 Oct 1492 Discovery by Columbus reveals some interesting midpoints at 14 mutables too


Well-known member
Here are the two Sabian degrees of the Ascendants..I vote for the first one

AROUND A CLOSED-DOWN FACTORY STRIKERS MILL DEFIANTLY A stirring of the collective,unconscious factors of being toward the repolarization of the conscious ego. Idle protest.
___*When positive, the degree is undeviating self-assertiveness and a refusal to accept any lesser in lieu of a greater, and when negative, a dissatisfaction which surrenders rather than regrasps the self's potential.

A YOUNG WIDOW IS SURPRISED INTO A NEW BIRTH OF LOVE The eternal call for fulfilment through love which overcomes personal sensitiveness and set patterns. Revision of attitude.
___*When positive, the degree is a successful employment of past failure as well as prior accomplishment in the effective integration of the personality, and when negative, callous repudiation of the self's responsibilities.

Also here are Sabian Degrees for the MC respectively

ON A STEEP CLIMB, A TUNNEL OFFERS SHORT-CUT TO A TRAIN The way within to outer success. Sure relief to the toiler ready to face facts. Penetration and direct accomplishment.
___*When positive, the degree is man's gift for meeting the most exacting of demands on his various potentialities, and when negative, uninspired conformity to limitation.

A SYMPHONY IS PLAYED DRAMATIZING MAN'S HEROIC ASCENT Inspiration through creative identification with the large sweep of cycles. Spiritual expansion. Renewed encouragement.
___*When positive, the degree is the imaginative sweep of man's vision and eagerness to execute its promise, and when negative, a loss of reality in an infinitely regressive otherworldliness or a total lack of all practicality.



Staff member
Interesting observations about the 14 mutable degree.
Futurist said:
12 Oct 1492 Discovery by Columbus reveals some interesting midpoints at 14 mutables too
Using the other chart, the Sibley one, Sagittarius rising, and casting the progressed chart backwards for that day, we find the progressed Sun partile conjunct the natal Midheaven, and even more a little earlier there was a secondary progressed New Moon exactly on the natal Midheaven - an important argument for the Sibley chart - as that was the day when this continent was officially discovered.


Well-known member
However ........ In Nick Campion's Book Of World Horoscopes it says, and I quote from Page 406/7

'All existing evidence suggests that the key events took place between 10am and 5pm. However there is some intriguing hearsay evidence. For example US astrologer Maggie Meister tells a story of the occasion when as an air hostess with TWA she met an airline pilot who had an ancestor who was one of the original signaturees, and who mentioned that the declaration was agreed in the early hours of the morning at 2.15 am (Meister states that the captain definitely specified a time, although she is unclear in her memory whether this was 2.14 2.15 or 2.17).'

Nick also says later that there has never been a shred of evidence that any of them were remotely interested in Astrology except perhaps Jefferson and Franklin and if they were looking for a propitious time to sign then the chart ruler being retrograde was probably not a very good call! So assuming Astrological timing did not come into it and they just signed in the early hours of the morning, why would anyone of the signaturees say it was signed at 2.14 or 2.17? They would surely just round it up back or forward like nurses in Hospitals tend to do and say 2.15am.

So if pushed I would still err on the side of Gemini rising - what is the figure of people in the USA who don't even possess a passport? - it's something huge like about 70%

Personally though I think we should all just plump for a symbolic 12 noon chart. It's perfect !

Love the debate, it certainly is a way of collaborating with the Mars in Gemini impulse !!


Well-known member
Here is a link to a site in which the astrologer is also doubting between the two charts for the USA.She admits she feels more for the sagittarius-rising,but is also not certain because of the axis sagittarius-gemini.

I would like your opinion about it,is it making sense what she is saying(or absolute nonsense)?
Especially Futurist and Radu,because i think you both would feel the most for the gemini-chart;and Kite this woman is a great fan of using the sabian symbols;and Futurist,she uses cycles of planets in her approach of astrology also,check out the rest of her site :wink:

Here is the link:


Staff member
I think there're good points in that article!

But there's a good point in some other articles as well. So, who should have the last word?

For instance, I remember I wrote some time ago two articles on USA's natal chart, praising the Gemini rising chart. I just found that it worked. Then, after a while I learned that the Sagittarius rising chart works as well in other cases... So I wrote another article about that. Actually, I am quite ashamed of this situation as it lacks continuity, so the articles are not online.

FYI, here they are the first 2 articles praising the Gemini rising chart, I couldn't find the article praising the Sagittarius rising chart:

The Gemini rising chart
(Gemini rising chart: July 4, 1776, 2:13:32 AM, LMT: +05:00:40, Philadelphia, PA, USA)

In this article, I'd like to pinpoint the way the Sabian Symbols work at the moment of different events of the existence of a nation.

More specifically, I will to present the Sabian Symbols of the secondary progressed planets of the natal chart of USA at the time of several major events in the American history.

World Trade Center plane attack - September 11, 2001

Progressed Descendant (DS) - Represents the enemy - 9Gem28 - Sabian Symbol for 10 Gemini: AEROPLANE PERFORMING A NOSE-DIVE. - no comments needed.
Progressed Medium Coeli (MC) - It is a symbol for the President - 27Vir15 - Sabian Symbol for 28 Virgo: A BALD-HEADED MAN WHO HAS SEIZED POWER. - very clear.
Progressed Moon - Indicates the situation of the American people - 21Tau29 - Sabian Symbol for 22 Taurus - WHITE DOVE FLYING OVER TROUBLED WATERS. - the Americans managed to face bravely this tragedy.

Presidential elections - November 2, 2004

Progressed Sun - It is a symbol for the overall atmosphere in America during the elections - 29Aqu23 - Sabian Symbol for 30 Aquarius: MOON-LIT FIELDS, ONCE BABYLON, ARE BLOOMING WHITE. - today's Iraq is situated right on the location of the ancient Babylon.
Progressed Medium Coeli (MC) - It is a symbol for the President - 0Lib25 - Sabian Symbol for 1 Libra: A BUTTERFLY PRESERVED AND MADE PERFECT WITH A DART THROUGH IT. - The symbol says 'preservation' and thus it indicates quite clearly that Bush will be re-elected

War with Spain, sinking of USS Maine - February 15, 1898

Progressed Descendant (DS) - Represents the enemy - 14Pisces33 - Sabian Symbol for 15 Pisces: AN OFFICER DRILLING HIS MEN IN A SIMULATED ATTACK. - it is acknowledged that the sinking of USS Maine in the harbour of Havana, Cuba, was self inflicted, then attributed to the Spaniards in order to wage the war with Spain.

And examples could go on.


USA natal chart
The correct natal chart for the United States of America
There is an ongoing controversy among astrologers as to the correct natal chart of the USA. There are many charts that have been proposed and AstroDataBank has gathered 10 of them.

However, there cannot be several natal charts for America . There is only one USA, so only one chart is correct - the other ones can only be secondary charts, of lesser importance.

The two major charts that most widely acknowledged are:

Sagittarius Rising chart
Date: 07/04/1776 (July 4, 1776) (Sibly)
Time: 17:10 (5:10 PM) LMT (+5:00:39)
Place: Philadelphia, PA (Lat: 39 N 57; Lng: 75 W 9)

Gemini Rising chart
Date: 07/04/1776 (July 4, 1776)
Time: 02:13:32 (2:13:32 AM) LMT (+5:00:39)
Place: Philadelphia, PA (Lat: 39 N 57; Lng: 75 W 9)

I cast my vote for the Gemini rising chart, for reasons that are so obvious to me, that I cannot understand others' viewpoint.

Here they are:

Everyone knows that the so-called American culture is actually a mix of all the cultures and civilizations that exist together in America, yet without losing their individuality.
Look at the 1st house of the USA, the country's individuality: it is in Gemini (air sign, mercurian), Mercury in Cancer (water sign, ruled by the Moon), also in the 1st house there are Venus, Mars and Uranus.
Now you tell me: what is the American individuality if not a mix of all these planetary influences: Mercury, Moon, Venus, Mars and Uranus, no less than 5 planets out of 10.

The United States of America are generally known as:

- a young nation (Gemini rising)
- the wealthiest country on Earth (Sun conjunct Jupiter in the second house)
- the land of freedom and democracy (Uranus in the 1st house)

The first thing one sees when s/he reaches the American shore (from Europe) is the Statue of Liberty - that's Uranus on the Ascendant.

America is famous in the world for its Hollywood movies - Neptune, the movies, in the 5th house of art and creation; however these movies mainly promote highly questionable moral values (instinctual sex, physical, verbal or moral violence) Neptune conjunct with Black Moon Lilith.

Also, the Americans are well known as very good at promoting or selling their values, practically they know how to advertise themselves - the Moon, ruler of the 2nd house of values and possessions located high in the sky, in the 10th house.

One major argument that is really hard to beat is the Void-Of-Course Moon... There is only one applying aspect of the Moon on that date, July 4, 1776, the trine with Mars, pefected at 7:04 AM. Afterwards the Moon goes Void-Of-Course. Any chart erected after this time presents a Moon Void-Of-Course.
There is no way a trained experienced astrologer can explain how the United States of America may have been born under a such influence. Actually the USA are exactly the opposite: it's a dynamic successful country, energic, self-confident and leader in the world. (Moon trine Mars)
Therefore, the USA can only be born before 7:04 AM on that day and the Gemini rising chart is the only one that fits in here.



Well-known member
Hi Johan,

I took a look at the site. I know of Joyce Hoen, we both studied for the same astrological qualification, and I feel that the similarities of our background teachings comes through in her articles. It's good stuff.

I have a great idea, let's wait and see what happens in a few days when Mars reaches 7 Gemini and again when it reaches 13 degrees and continue the discussion then! The debate is wide open.


Well-known member

Love it ! My vote has really always been with Gemini rising. Your other 'lost' article wouldn't sway me and.......tongue firmly in cheek, Pisces on the MC does represent compassionate, spiritual but dualistic and deceptive Presidents ;-) See 9/11 conspiracy posts

Seriously though, let's wait and see what happens this weekend.


Staff member
Futurist said:
I have a great idea, let's wait and see what happens in a few days when Mars reaches 7 Gemini and again when it reaches 13 degrees and continue the discussion then! The debate is wide open.
Great idea indeed! So, looking forward to the next days ... (Mars will exactly conjunct the Gemini rising chart Ascendant on Sat, March 4, at 3:45 am EST, sorry, I couldn't help it - Virgoan need for precision;).


Well-known member

With this information i would say the Gemini rising chart,it all makes sense!And with what Futurist told about the Challenger,the midpoint Uranus-Mars,and the Pisces midheaven with the presidents...

Although the argument of Gemini-ascendant being a young country,i don't find that a strong argument,and the South-node and Moon in Aquarius against Uranus in the 1st house is just as strong.

Just to make one little side-step:as i recall the famous rockstar Robbie Williams has also a conjunction of Sun/Jupiter and in his 7th house;well he is rich and very confident to the outsideworld ,but it is also not in his second house as a comparison with the siblingchart(i know i am making a stupid comparison with a mundane chart and a personal chart,and i am not that ignorant that only a planet in the second house would give information about income and you also have to look on rulers,aspects,transits and progressions and so on;just making this little sidestep here to keep the debate open :p )

Just wanted to share an older article here about the gulfwar in 1991 and published in 1991.And here the Sagittarius rising chart is used.Maybe not so strong in acknowledging the chart but still interesting i think:

Saddam Hussein:A stubborn Taurus:his MC at 6,Sun at 7,Uranus at 9 and Mercury at 24 Taurus!All in 10:the public life,and with that Mercury in conjunction with the fixed star ALGOL:according to the tradition the worst of all!Also called the Medusa-head,that was so terrible that who looked at it dropped dead.No wonder,that Saddam massacred his own people if they revolted.Algol makes(especially in conjunction with the Sun)murderous and cruel,leads to power and violence.Algol gives the talent to win the mass for his ideas and gives the cleverness to make advantage of the mistakes or hesitations of the enemy.In some periods of life the Algol-type is surrounded by flatterers and followers,who one looses by their own performance.Sun conjunct Uranus gives a thriving for supporters and popularity.Mercury outgoing conjunct Uranus:intuitive thinking.Besides this these three planets are making all a trine to Neptune in Virgo in 2.That gives an enormous cunningness,the ability to let others and himself believe in illusions.Neptune casts a spell on Mercury and Mercury is the ruler of 11:his Republican Guard and his clan,the Tikriti.Although many times people tried to kill him,he always escaped.In his 8th house(death),Saturn is on the first degree of Aries:primitive fighting,making a good aspect(trine) to his parental environment:Mars in conjunction with the Moon in Sagittarius,which has an outgoing square to Neptune,so the will for fighting(Mars/Moon),that is already fiery in a Fire-sign and decorated with a religious slogan(Sagittarius),enlarged(Neptune)and discharged into a just-say-something(Neptune).Moon in 4:his mother and the devotion to his clan.Mars:his stepfather,who when Saddam was a boy already took him with him out stealing.Neptune in 2:income out of vague sources,not by honest work!In 9 his Venus in Aries,square to Jupiter in Capricorn.In 9 that gives an exaggerated religious will for fighting and is the ruler of 10.And the Sun on the MC is the ruler of his AC: selfglorification,he has given orders to rebuilt the ruins of Babylon and he thinks he is the returned Nebukadnezar...Finally his Pluto is in Cancer in 12 as the ruler of 4:his karma could be the loss of his homecountry and clan.Square Venus in 9,and ruler of 10,so Venus is also dragged into the 12th house and who is that Pluto?

The Mercury in 8 of the USA and the Venus/Pluto conjunction of Bush!While the Mercury of Bush ruler 10 in 9(foreign countries)is on the Tauruscomplex of Saddam
Bush'love for his country,which made him president,is very obvious:an outgoing conjunction of Pluto/Venus points to a strong love and dedication-in Cancer its aimed to his country and this is on the Sun/Venus of the USA itself!And is in Saddams 12 ruler 4...It is the country(USA) that calls his son to overpower(Pluto)thoseones,by whom the overpower(Pluto) is in the 12th house of loss and karma(old debts) in opposition with Jupiter ruler of 5 as selfoverestimation!
Saddam with Leo-rising roaring selfconfidence
Bush with Virgo-rising sober intellectual calculation
Two types who cannot talk with eachother.Saddam also has no planets in an airsign in his chart:no logic.Bush said:"Saddam cannot be trusted says this today and tomorrow the opposit".Later Bush admitted he underestimated Saddam:Virgo sees everything in the daylight of intelligence,but cannot see in the dark of emotional forces.But he can understand the Taurus-stubbornness of Saddam with his Mercury in Taurus.
The USA represents for most other countries their Saturn and/or Pluto:their karma and/or their overpower(In WorldWar 2 one could see the changing success of the USA and allies and Germany and friends by looking to the declinations of Saturn(USA) and Uranus(Germany).The highest declination of the two gave the success in the war.

Well,like I said not really convincing for the Sagittarius rising chart(cause you could also say with pluto in 9 instead of mercury in 8 this whole article makes sense,but i just wanted to share it with you,so we can also look to rulers of houses and in- and outgoing aspects maybe later on and because i just found it a good article.

But i am game,wait and see for the weekend(but almost convinced for the Gemini rising chart :wink: )Very interested what you come up with...


Well-known member
Hey, watch it Johan. I have no air in my chart either!! ;-)

More seriously though, I hear where you are coming from. I'm waiting with bated breath (great phrase for someone with no air!) for Mars to do its stuff



Well-known member
I have seen your photo and you don't look like Saddam at all :lol:

Mars crossed the ascendant of the gemini rising chart,not yet the descendant of the sagittarius rising chart...
Maybe the moon doesn't play its role to bring it down to earth?(At least that's what i have learned,the moon has to be involved;transiting,progressing or in another way)
Or maybe i just missed something,only know that Bush is travelling...

BTW,i like your new article of the Ju/Ne cycle and the Sa/Ne cycle


As a judicial astrologer born & raised in Philadelphia, there are some things that many astrologers do not know about the U.S. horoscopes.

First thing is that the July 4, 1776 signing of the Declaration of Independance was supposed to be signed on July 2, but Benjamin Franklin, an practicing astrologer among his many skills, and occupations -did not want the signing to take place under a Capricorn Moon. He talked with the main writer of the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson, and both delayed the signing by making themselves unavailable until the Moon had entered Aquarius.

I use the July 4, 1776 chart as the one for the American Revolution, and the subsequent war with England.

Another chart I use for the United States is 17 September 1787 - the signing of the U.S. Constitution and 4 March 1789 - when the constitution went into effect.

Set all charts for sunrise in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. - a classical mundane method to forecast events - and progress them over significant dates in U.S. and world history.

Much of the fighting over the "correct" date, or timing of these events can be ended with casting a simple sunrise cycle series of charts, and then progressing them using Secondary Progression by Naibod.

Many of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. - including the prime individuals -had knowledge of, and/or practiced astrology - including Franklin, and Jefferson - among others. I've read many of their writings as a boy growing up in Philadelphia, and lived in the neighborhood Franklin founded to escape the summer heat of Independance Hall in downtown Philadelphia.


Staff member
Great! Thanks for the info. Which time do you use for the July 4 chart?
In which way do you consider differently the July 4 chart and the US constitution charts?

Many of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. - including the prime individuals -had knowledge of, and/or practiced astrology - including Franklin, and Jefferson - among others. I've read many of their writings as a boy growing up in Philadelphia, and lived in the neighborhood Franklin founded to escape the summer heat of Independance Hall in downtown Philadelphia.
Do you think that current "Fathers" of US politics use astrology in their activity? (not referring to Reagan, who is famous for this)


Staff member
March 4 has passed and no significative events took place in connection with Mars' conjunction with the Ascendant of the Gemini rising US chart.

Next day to is to wait for is March 13 (+/- 1-2 days), when transiting Mars will be conjunct Sibley chart Descendant while in tight square with transiting Uranus. That's a major influence. Martian events on this day will represent an important argument for the Sibley chart.
At the same time, transiting Sun and Mercury will be in square with natal Mars.


Well-known member
'First thing is that the July 4, 1776 signing of the Declaration of Independance was supposed to be signed on July 2, but Benjamin Franklin, an practicing astrologer among his many skills, and occupations -did not want the signing to take place under a Capricorn Moon. He talked with the main writer of the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson, and both delayed the signing by making themselves unavailable until the Moon had entered Aquarius.'

Theo, your words above are an extremely significant piece of information for astrologers practicing worldwide. Could you please reveal the source of this information so that it can be verified and distributed further afield

Many thanks