US - a Uranian Country

wilsontc

Staff member
All,

Recently I was thinking about the US birth chart and it occurred to me it makes NO sense to create a chart for the signing Declaration of Independence. The signing of the Declaration of Independence was at the time was STILL a colony of Great Britain. The US ONLY became it's own country after the Battle of Yorktown, When Cornwallis signed the surrender papers that officially released the US from Great Britain's colonial rule.

Interestingly enough, the time and place of this surrender signing is VERY well known, as George Washington made a note of it in his diary: 11 AM at Yorktown PA. Casting a chart for THIS time and place is VERY interesting. As you see, it shows a fan chart with Uranus :)uranus:) as the handle. Even thought there is no opposition to Uranus in the chart, Uranus is CLEARLY the outlying planet.

And that got me thinking about the nature of Uranus: it is both about independence and revolution, as well as it is about "social security". This dual nature of Uranus very well symbolizes the opposite political parties IN the US: some people are about personal independence (Republicans) while others are about developing social security with the help of a strong, protective government (Democrats).

Also I noted that at this time transiting Uranus is OPPOSING natal Mercury (thinking, also talking, writing). Uranus is also associated with technology and in the US this is a time when technology is opposing freedom of thinking, talking, and writing. This got me thinking that this chart, instead of the US signing chart, is the chart of the founding of the US.

Thinking out loud,

Tim
 

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blackbery

Well-known member
What you say is true TimW. The U.S.A. was still a colony of the British Empire in 1776.....

YET, on July 4, 1776, the Founding Fathers made and signed a DECLARATION that they were independent on that date. That's the beginning of the 'birth' of the country.

By issuing the Declaration of Independence, adopted by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776, the 13 American colonies severed their political connections to Great Britain. The Declaration summarized the colonists’ motivations for seeking independence. By declaring themselves an independent nation, the American colonists were able to confirm an official alliance with the Government of France and obtain French assistance in the war against Great Britain.

Remember that many of the Founding Fathers were also astrologers.

They wanted the people to love their new country & be loyal to it. Their principles are based on CANCER themes of home, family, children. Cancer is a Cardinal sign too, concerned with protecting itself. The Moon Aquarius in the 1776 was planned specifically to be so...in order to be open to other cultures, other ideas and look how many immigrants were settled into the country and become part of the whole.


There are astrologers who believe the country's chart should be when the first President swore the oath & took office on April 30, 1789.

On April 30, 1789, George Washington, standing on the balcony of Federal Hall on Wall Street in New York, took his oath of office as the first President of the United States.


Perhaps that is the chart that should be used....and yet, the Sibley chart of 1776 is the most popular because it signifies the WILL of the PEOPLE to break away from the greatest military power at that time. Other countries/colonies did not do that but only the U.S.A. put their lives on the line to create an independent nation. Uranus/DC reveals how the country will always remain unique in the 'American Experiment' as it was called back then.

The Presidents who resonate with the public the most all have a very uncanny chemistry with the 1776 chart. Perhaps because the WILL to break away from the U.K. enabled many to fight & die for their new country. (There were many who refused to fiht & who were quite content with remaining a colony).

Healthy discussion is always good. I'm sure your chart will have its share of people who agree.

I've seen numerous other charts for the U.K. too.

In the end, astrologers will use the chart that resonates with them most clearly.



https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nation:_USA_No.1

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1776-1783/declaration
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Very interesting proposal, although I tend to go with passiflora and blackberry on this.
in addition to their comments, the scorpio moon conjunct ascendent ruler Jupiter in the 29th degree doesn't seem to reflect the US.
 

wilsontc

Staff member
All,

Perhaps July 4, 1776 was when the US was CONCEIVED. But the US as a SEPARATE UNIT from Great Britain did NOT happen until Great Britain officially surrendered the US. Just as company charts are created for the day they sign the document saying the company exists as its own entity, so an independent country's chart should be from the moment it exists as its own entity, separate from any other country.

Suggesting,

Tim
 

wilsontc

Staff member
It's definitely not thrilling to see the NN in Aries 4h...It suggests the US is almost destined to make everyone else's business its own business.

passiflora,

Following up on that point, with a North node (future goals) focused in the 4th house (home) in Aries (being) there is an indicator that the US's goal is to develop its own self-awareness of who it is at its core. This also suggests a strong focus on the US's national identity. Also interesting in this chart is there is a STRONG focus on the left (self) side, further suggesting a strong focus on the US itself. While a focus on the Right side of the chart (e.g., the July 4, 1776 chart) suggests a country dependent on OTHERS, the strong focus on the LEFT side of the chart suggests a country that takes its OWN actions and is in charge of taking actions for itself. There is also a STRONG focus of planets in the 11th house, associated with Aquarius, ruled by Uranus, again emphasizing the strong interest in independence and social security.

I've never been able to find a justification in the real world of the US for the July 4, 1776 chart, but just a brief look over this chart of the date and time US separated completely from Great Britain seems to "feel" right.

Continuing the study,

Tim
 

waybread

Well-known member
Good thread topic, Tim.:cool:

The thing about the US Sibly chart for the Declaration of Independence, is that it's been sufficiently radical to have merit in interpreting subsequent US historical events. I'm not sure charts for the subsequent 18th century milestones in American history have that quality.

And no-- the word "radical" in astrology does not mean extremely left-wing. It means valid, or having significant interpretive value. Geoffrey Cornelius in The Moment of Astrology talked about event charts that were actually cast for the wrong time, yet were radical, or high in interpretive value.

One would have to compare this or any other chart for the US with subsequent events using transits, progressions, or primary directions to see whether this chart helps to explain them. These could also help with the chart rectification.

Irish astrologer Bill Sheeran argued for using a suite of charts for national birthdays, as one could trace the unfolding of important events over time.

I also note that the concept of individual liberty was a very long time coming in the US. Even the ratified Constitution and Bill of Rights accepted chattel slavery, few rights for women, and extermination policies towards Native Americans.

The First Amendment to the Constitution is probably as close as our founding documents come to really enshrining basic human rights (at least for white men.)

I don't think that the binary dichotomy of Republicans as favoring individual liberty vs Democrats favoring a protective government (Nanny state???) is accurate. Obviously most senior Republicans want to keep their Social Security and Medicare, as well as VA benefits for veterans. We don't see a groundswell of elderly Arizona Republicans clamoring to give up their entitlements. Democrats also prize their individual liberty. They just express it differently.

Here's a chart for the Bill of Rights when proposed by James Madison, and another one for its ratification.
 

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waybread

Well-known member
In mundane astrology each house has a particular meaning. The 7th house refers to foreign affairs, whether diplomatic or hostile.

In this sense a 7th house Uranus would be meaningful for a break-away (sudden change) from a previous regime.

Uranus is also the tip of a yod, indicating an energy that must be developed.

BTW, the Constitution was ratified on June 21, 1788. The Bill of Rights was ratified on December 15, 1791.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
In mundane astrology each house has a particular meaning. The 7th house refers to foreign affairs, whether diplomatic or hostile.

In this sense a 7th house Uranus would be meaningful for a break-away (sudden change) from a previous regime.

Uranus is also the tip of a yod, indicating an energy that must be developed.

BTW, the Constitution was ratified on June 21, 1788. The Bill of Rights was ratified on December 15, 1791.

Rhode Island didn't complete the ratification until May 29, 1790
 

wilsontc

Staff member
Individual vs. Government

The thing about the US Sibly chart for the Declaration of Independence, is that it's been sufficiently radical to have merit in interpreting subsequent US historical events.

I also note that the concept of individual liberty was a very long time coming in the US...Republicans as favoring individual liberty vs Democrats favoring a protective government...Obviously most senior Republicans want to keep their Social Security and Medicare, as well as VA benefits for veterans. We don't see a groundswell of elderly Arizona Republicans clamoring to give up their entitlements. Democrats also prize their individual liberty. They just express it differently.

Waybread,

I'm interested in testing this chart against other events and finding out how well it holds up. As I suggested, on the face of it, it seems a LOT more believable to have a focus on Uranus than a focus on Government (Pluto) oppressing (opposite) Communication (Mercury) (as there is in the Sibley chart)...as you mention, the Constitution was about making sure that DIDN'T happen.

Going back to your point about Republican vs. Democrat and individual liberty vs. social security. What I was saying was that striking SOME kind of balance between liberty and social security has come to DEFINE the US and the US government. Wherever individuals come down on that dividing line, left, right or center it IS the Uranian dividing line that people focus on. It is also the issue that the swinging "pendulum" of US political policies addresses: from more government to more individual freedom, back and forth. That alone jumps out to me as something that makes this a believable chart.

But the proof is in the testing. Now it's time to take a look at major US events such as the Great Depression and see what the chart indicates and how well it reflects what actually occurred.

Learning all the time,

Tim
 

wilsontc

Staff member
US and Uranian Foreign Affairs

In mundane astrology each house has a particular meaning. The 7th house refers to foreign affairs, whether diplomatic or hostile. In this sense a 7th house Uranus would be meaningful for a break-away (sudden change) from a previous regime. Uranus is also the tip of a yod, indicating an energy that must be developed.

Waybread,

To follow up on this point and further suggest why this chart appears, at first glance, to be relevant. If you think about recent US foreign policy, particularly in wars, they have been a constant push towards developing the individual rights of the people in the country and setting up a system that will help them with their social security. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. there is this constant theme of helping the people of the country be independent and to break away from an oppressive regime. Indeed, these days, about the ONLY reason for the US to go to war is to either stop or prevent an oppressive regime from hurting their people. A debate in the US's involvement in the Israel-Palestine wars is who is the person who is actually oppressed? Those who say it's Israel are for the US supporting Israel, those who say it's Palestine are for the US supporting Israel. If there were no issue of a need to break away from an oppressive regime the US would probably be MUCH less involved in Israel and it wouldn't be a subject of continual discussion.

Further reflecting,

Tim
 

waybread

Well-known member
Re: Individual vs. Government

Waybread,

I'm interested in testing this chart against other events and finding out how well it holds up. As I suggested, on the face of it, it seems a LOT more believable to have a focus on Uranus than a focus on Government (Pluto) oppressing (opposite) Communication (Mercury) (as there is in the Sibley chart)...as you mention, the Constitution was about making sure that DIDN'T happen.

Going back to your point about Republican vs. Democrat and individual liberty vs. social security. What I was saying was that striking SOME kind of balance between liberty and social security has come to DEFINE the US and the US government. Wherever individuals come down on that dividing line, left, right or center it IS the Uranian dividing line that people focus on. It is also the issue that the swinging "pendulum" of US political policies addresses: from more government to more individual freedom, back and forth. That alone jumps out to me as something that makes this a believable chart.

But the proof is in the testing. Now it's time to take a look at major US events such as the Great Depression and see what the chart indicates and how well it reflects what actually occurred.

Learning all the time,

Tim

Tim, to find out how your chart holds up as the preferable US birth date, I think you would now have to run it through a lot of significant dates in US history and see how it stacks up with planetary "hits," whether via transits, progressions, or some other prognosticative method. This was done for the Sibly chart.

I also think this is the only way in which your Republican vs. Democrat binary opposition would have any meaning. The US has been a constitutional Republic for over two centuries, and political parties and their platforms have changed significantly during that time. For example, the Republican party wasn't even founded until 1854, and then it was pro-abolition, vs. the "Dixiecrats." The parties' stands on racialized inequalities began to reverse only during the Reagan presidency.

Frankly, with the plurality of registered American voters today as independents, it's unclear how many truly want the classic Fox News divisiveness pitting a "them" against an "us." I find that very unhelpful. More people are probably concerned about their job security and income than give a care about party politics.

And for any Republicans opposed to big government, I recommend that they return their covid economic stimulus checks to the Treasury Department. They're not as opposed to the social safety net as they claim.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Individual vs. Government

Tim, to find out how your chart holds up as the preferable US birth date, I think you would now have to run it through a lot of significant dates in US history and see how it stacks up with planetary "hits," whether via transits, progressions, or some other prognosticative method. This was done for the Sibly chart.

I also think this is the only way in which your Republican vs. Democrat binary opposition would have any meaning. The US has been a constitutional Republic for over two centuries, and political parties and their platforms have changed significantly during that time. For example, the Republican party wasn't even founded until 1854, and then it was pro-abolition, vs. the "Dixiecrats." The parties' stands on racialized inequalities began to reverse only during the Reagan presidency.

Frankly, with the plurality of registered American voters today as independents, it's unclear how many truly want the classic Fox News divisiveness pitting a "them" against an "us." I find that very unhelpful. More people are probably concerned about their job security and income than give a care about party politics.

And for any Republicans opposed to big government, I recommend that they return their covid economic stimulus checks to the Treasury Department. They're not as opposed to the social safety net as they claim.

Waybread, notice the growing number of independent voters, who don't fully subscribe to either of the two major Parties. So, it's not just Republicans versus Democrats anymore.

Is there a good article on how the Sibly chart has proven itself accurate?
 
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wilsontc

Staff member
Re: Individual vs. Government

I also think this is the only way in which your Republican vs. Democrat binary opposition would have any meaning. The US has been a constitutional Republic for over two centuries, and political parties and their platforms have changed significantly during that time.

Waybread,

The FOUNDING of the US was based on the idea of independence from government (from the Declaration of Independence): "...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..." This shows how it has ALWAYS been important in the US, even from BEFORE the US was an independent country, to allow people to have their individual rights. The central issue in the US is how much should there be individual rights and how much should be government action? The CONCEPTION chart (Sibley) of the US shows this as does the BIRTH chart (Cornwallis surrender chart).

Following up,

Tim
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Individual vs. Government

Waybread,

The FOUNDING of the US was based on the idea of independence from government (from the Declaration of Independence): "...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..." This shows how it has ALWAYS been important in the US, even from BEFORE the US was an independent country, to allow people to have their individual rights. The central issue in the US is how much should there be individual rights and how much should be government action? The CONCEPTION chart (Sibley) of the US shows this as does the BIRTH chart (Cornwallis surrender chart).

Following up,

Tim


Tim, what about government action to ensure individual rights?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Re: Individual vs. Government

Waybread,

The FOUNDING of the US was based on the idea of independence from government (from the Declaration of Independence): "...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..." This shows how it has ALWAYS been important in the US, even from BEFORE the US was an independent country, to allow people to have their individual rights. The central issue in the US is how much should there be individual rights and how much should be government action? The CONCEPTION chart (Sibley) of the US shows this as does the BIRTH chart (Cornwallis surrender chart).

Following up,

Tim

Looks like you have an argument for the Sibly chart!

Tim, the Declaration wasn't about independence from any form of federal government whatsoever. If you read further, you will see that most of it was a specific set of grievances against George III. The Declaration was not signed by a bunch of anarchists. They had continental congresses and meetings with delegates from the 13 colonies to administer the united colonies at war and prior to the ratification of the Constitution.

Prior to the Declaration each of the 13 colonies was administered separately. (Cf. Ben Franklin: "We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall all hang separately.")

The Declaration was not even specifically anti-taxation. The signers opposed "taxation without representation."

Just as an aside, they actually didn't believe that all men are created equal. The signers from Delaware, Maryland, and South were slave owners (or at least lived in states where slavery was legal.) You know their frontier settlers' attitudes about Native Americans.

Given the time at which it was written, the typical "man" was also intended to be a property owner. Exact voting qualifications were left up to the individual colonies/states.

For details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_voting_rights_in_the_United_States

Individual rights really weren't enshrined prior to the Bill of Rights. (See my post with the two charts on this.)

I honestly believe that you are rescripting or glossing over hard historical facts to suit a contemporary conservative ideology.

Having said that, I do see that USA as a very Uranian nation. Somethings that Uranus rules:

*things futuristic
*electricity, electronics (Thomas Edison to Bill Gates)
*aviation (and probably space flight) (Wright brothers, moon walk)
*political revolutions, liberation (1776, Civil War)
*change to the status quo ( the latest fad to meaningful innovations)

I see innovation being key to understanding Uranus in US history.
 
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