Ukraine Invasion discussion thread.

waybread

Well-known member
I don't think Zelensky wants power, with such a horrific price tag, Dirius. I think he's very courageous. Someone had to spearhead resistance to Putin's invasion; and as president, he was it.

I point out that Ukrainians did not greet Russian tanks with candy and flowers, as Putin anticipated.

This poem by Sir Walter Scott, is for you, Dirius:

"Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!

Whose heart hath ne’er within him burn’d,
As home his footsteps he hath turn’d,
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust, from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour’d, and unsung."



I don't agree Zelensky is hero. While I agree Ukraine is a sovereign nation and should be entitled to do as they please, they are the ones losing the war, and are not in a position to bargain. It is their civilians who die each day. Especially if these demands are reasonable, which they kind of are, in the sense that Russia could ask for much more. The terroritories Russia demands recognition for, have not been under Ukranian control for a long time.

Ukraine isn't losing much more than they already did years ago. But Zelensky does not want to leave power.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Having a colony in the past that is now an independent nation is no rational for launching a war against it. Also, Ukraine was at various times part of other European empires based in Poland and Austria. Nobody's trying to bring back the Hapsburgs.

The British fought against the US with the War of 1812. Although they managed to sack Washington, DC, that war didn't go so well for them, either.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine is seen an attempt to get back it's former and historic colonies...did the British do that with their former colonies (the USA)? Knowing world history: the pro-British monarchist loyalists migrated to settle in Canada. And Russia's adage "we're Slavic brothers to Ukraine" when the other felt threatened like a dysfunctional family relationship from a reality or a talk show.
 

Roks

Well-known member
nuclear.PNG

Hope this is just propaganda
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Unfortunately, Dirius, investment may not mean building manufacturing plants and hiring new workers right where you'd like to have them. It may mean "saving" funds electronically. Banks are required to hold a minimum amount of assets. It may mean buying up real estate. It may mean lending money it out at interest. Municipal bonds may be used to fund construction projects that hire people for the duration of the project only. Government bonds and Treasury notes are used to pay off debt, and so on..

Real estate is used for what? an investment in developing and construction.
Lending money at interest is used for what? investments and business expansion.
Municipal bonds are purchased by whom? by investors buying them as investments.

If people have less money, they invest in less of these, or look for more attractive options. Its like you have no idea how the economy works. :wink:

Everyone will feel the pinch of sanctions. The calculus is that they will hit Russia harder and quicker, to the point where Putin backs off Ukraine. Since a lot of Russian companies are owned by fabulously wealthy oligarchs, they probably can keep their businesses afloat for a while. My hope is that they will decide Putin just isn't worth it.

I don't think Putin cares an iota about protestors, other than muzzling the press so that Russians don't learn about them. Protests in Europe so far have been overwhelmingly pro-Ukraine.

The plan is that they won't be prolonged because Russia will cave in first.
It can take months for those sanctions to take effect. On the mean time, Russia is slowly conquering the Ukraine and the war will probably take effect. In fact, if in desperation, Russia could bomb all Ukranian cities, and just end the war in 12 hours - killing millions of people, annexing Ukraine or forcing them to have peace. So in a way the sanctions can be used as provocation to escalate the war into a bloodbath.

But I guess brilliant Brandon couldn't come up with a better plan.

So far as the Canadian economy goes, gas in my little town went from $1.49/liter to $1.69/liter in a couple of weeks. I would willingly drive less and pay more if it means that Putin gets the h*ll out of Ukraine.

Oil and Gas are also used in manufacturing, not just driving mrs waybread around.
Oil and Gas are also used in producing food, not just driving mrs waybread around.
Oil and Gas are used in transportation of goods, not just driving mrs waybread around.
Oil and Gas are used to power your phone, your computer, not just driving mrs waybread around.
Oil and gas, when their price increases, hits every area of the economy, not just mrs waybread driving time.

What mrs waybread doesn't seem to understand is that the sanctions are going to hit every single area of the economy, not just her car expenses. And it can take a few weeks before you see this (has anyone gotten their electric bill since the sanctions began?). Also, aside from being extremely elitist, given that for Mrs waybread a $0,20c might not be harmful to her wealth, it might be for others less fortunate people.
:happy::happy::sideways:

I think mrs waybread should step down from her home in the high castle, and begin to realise these effects will hit on poor people rather than her. In the U.S. these includes most minorities and at risk groups, you know, the people mrs waybread claims to care so much about.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Dirius, Volodymyr Zelinsky has become an international hero, in case you hadn't noticed. There's something about David standing up to Goliath that many people find appealing.
No he isn't. The media tries to portray him as a hero. Doesn't mean he is one.

There is something about sycophants who role over and play dead when confronted by bullies that most of us find abhorrent.
Zelensky is a public servant whose job is to do what is in the best interest of his people, which is ending the war and saving lives. If he wants to play the hero on camera, that makes him a dumbass, not a leader.

I don't know what news outlets you follow, but they apparently missed the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine's Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk regions in 2014, and the continued fighting taking place in the eastern districts. The independence votes there were a sham.

Yes, it was a corrupt takeover of all those regions. But Ukraine has 0% chances of getting those territories back anyways, so giving them up would not harm them anyhow. They are not getting Crimea back, so refusing to negotiate based on these issues is just dumb, and made out of pride, rather than logic.
The "denazification" trope is a sick joke. Thousands of Nazis fled to Argentina after WW2. You have fascists and neo-Nazis in Argentina today. That's no rationale for invading Argentina.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...st-pedro-filipuzzi-buenos-aires-a9378321.html

Putin well understands that nobody is going to "demilitarize." Probably there are some nations on the planet with no military and no weapons, but I can't think of any. Can you?

I really can't see how you didn't understand my statement, are you reading properly?

"de-nazification" is a laughable excuse (just like when democrats cry "white supremacy"), the goal is to remove the pro-NATO administration.
"de-militarize" means no NATO advanced weaponry on Ukraine soil, not that Ukraine can't have an army or national guard.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
I don't think Zelensky wants power, with such a horrific price tag, Dirius. I think he's very courageous. Someone had to spearhead resistance to Putin's invasion; and as president, he was it.
He is a pro-NATO politician funded by EU interests, just like former president Yanukovych is a pro-Russia politician funded by russian interests. They are pawns in the long running game between the U.S. and Russia.
I point out that Ukrainians did not greet Russian tanks with candy and flowers, as Putin anticipated.

Yes they are making a fine job keeping the russian army at bay. However:

They have 0% chances of winning the war, given Russia has a superior force and armaments.
They have 0% chances of a counter attack to recover lost territory (unless other countries get involved).
They have 0% chances of preventing the destruction and long-term problems this causes.

Their best chance was to put up a strong defense and negotiate, giving up what was already lost (Crimea and the separatist regions). They are not doing that, while Zelensky is arming more and more civilians and sending them to die. Also understand, the terms Russia is imposing (considering Ukraine's position) are quite soft - because they could just go for total conquest or ask for more territory.
 

david starling

Well-known member
He is a pro-NATO politician funded by EU interests, just like former president Yanukovych is a pro-Russia politician funded by russian interests. They are pawns in the long running game between the U.S. and Russia.


Yes they are making a fine job keeping the russian army at bay. However:

They have 0% chances of winning the war, given Russia has a superior force and armaments.
They have 0% chances of a counter attack to recover lost territory (unless other countries get involved).
They have 0% chances of preventing the destruction and long-term problems this causes.

Their best chance was to put up a strong defense and negotiate, giving up what was already lost (Crimea and the separatist regions). They are not doing that, while Zelensky is arming more and more civilians and sending them to die. Also understand, the terms Russia is imposing (considering Ukraine's position) are quite soft - because they could just go for total conquest or ask for more territory.


What about the powerful Nazi Brigade, and the deadly biolabs? Do you believe those really exist?
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Let me make it simple waybread:

Lets say you are walking down the street at night one day, and you encounter an armed robber that demands your wallet and phone at gun point.

You have no weapons of your own, and you have no ninja skills to defend yourself.

You can try fighting back, instead of giving up your wallet and phone. You will probably end up dead, because you are at a disadvantageous position, while the other person is not only ambushing you, but also has weapons that can destroy you.

It would be very heroic if you fight back. But it would also be pointless, because your life is more important than your wallet and phone.

Now lets imagine that the robber tells you:"Ok I'll only take 30% of what you have in your wallet, and you can keep your phone and the rest of your money and I will leave you and your family alone". .

This is what the Ukranian leadership are doing. The people are forced to fight back to protect their families because the leadership of Ukraine is unwilling to negotiate proper terms.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
The important thing is to save ukranian lives. To stop the fighting. To stop the destruction. To stop millions of people from having to flee in terror.

Its not about the "hero" getting some media attention.

Its not the virtue signaling from western politicians.

Its not about hating and cursing Putin or harming the russian people.

None of these things will help the Ukranian people. Negotiating peace will help the Ukranian people.

Zelensky is an ineffective leader. He is not doing right by the Ukranian people.

I'm 100% on the side of Ukraine. But they are not going to win, and their strategy is hurting them more than helping them.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
The important thing is to save ukranian lives. To stop the fighting. To stop the destruction. To stop millions of people from having to flee in terror.

Its not about the "hero" getting some media attention.

Its not the virtue signaling from western politicians.

Its not about hating and cursing Putin or harming the russian people.

None of these things will help the Ukranian people. Negotiating peace will help the Ukranian people.

Zelensky is an ineffective leader. He is not doing right by the Ukranian people.

I'm 100% on the side of Ukraine. But they are not going to win, and their strategy is hurting them more than helping them.

Is there a genuine Ukrainian leader ready to take Zelensky's place, if he were to step down? I haven't seen anything about a current opposition leader, more Russian-oriented than Zelensky.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
And just so we are clear waybread.

A true hero is someone who makes a sacrifice to protect others.

The Ukranian army are heroes. The Ukranian civilians fighting back are heroes.

Zelensky is not a hero. His ineptitude is making things worse.

A hero would negotiate peace, even if it means stepping down, to protect his people.
 

Ukpoohbear

Well-known member
Even though Russian are the aggressors, did they not continue to shell breakaway provinces even after Russian declared them independent?’ And Ukrainian and NATO forces moving further Eqsy.

Is it not a case of Russia being provoked but perhaps being really aggressive about it?

Although, any excuse of war is just an excuse, and the Ukrainian civilians and Russian soldiers, and the poor, are paying the price.
 

blackbery

Well-known member
The NWO is being destroyed & exposed. We all know about the Ukranian bribes to the Xiden Crime family, to the Clinton foundation. We know about the regime changes in 2014 with O'Bummer & there are even phone calls with Victoria Neuland talking about which Ukranian candidate they want to replace Victor Yanokovych with. Luckily, he managed to escape to Russia besfore they could kill him but the US illegally replaced him with their puppet Porosheko.

We know about the coup in 2020 against Trump, we know about the biolabs
& there's a lot more intel we will know about. Ukraine is the beginning of the end for the deep state & that's why they are in such a panic.

Ukraine has been so corrupted by the US & used as a proxy country to create tension with Russia & demonize Putin. Their fake news reports are being systematically destroyed by the truth & the facts. The public don't believe the corrupt media, don't believe the current Xiden Marxist Regime & don't believe the big tech, internet bots who have gone crazy with their anti-Russian propaganda.

The Truth cannot be stopped anymore. The days of the US invading other countries and/or installing their own puppets are over. As is using unfair sanctions on countries that don't do as they demand.



NEW - VISA, Mastercard ban: Russian banks rush to switch to the Chinese card system #UnionPay, the second-largest and fastest-growing global credit card network.

The Chinese UnionPay payment acceptance network has recently expanded to 180 countries, including to the United States, Canada and the EU region.




https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/russian-banks-rush-switch-chinese-card-system-2022-03-06/
 

blackbery

Well-known member
FLASHBACK: Leaked Tape in 2014 Showed State Department’s Victoria Nuland Saying “F*** the EU” then Plotting Ukraine Coup Using Biden’s Help

At this time, Nuland made a call with another American, Jeffrey Pyatt, to discuss the events in Ukraine. She mentioned Jake Sullivan in the call as well as Joe Biden. In their phone conversation, Nuland and Pyatt discussed who should join a unity government. Nuland notified Pyatt that after the review of the three opposition candidates for the post of Prime Minister of Ukraine





And guess who else was visiting Ukraine back in 2014 & calling on the removal of the democratically elected PM Yankovytch? None other than McStain & Lindsay Graham. Yep, THAT L. Graham who called for the assassination of Putin via Twitter & account not banned or suspended.:andy::surprised::tongue:

He openly called for the targeted assassination of a world leader & fake news & big tech don't have a problem with that! :unsure:



Ukraine - Poroshenko awards Orders of Ukraine to US Senators McCain and Graham

Dec 30, 2016
 

blackbery

Well-known member
US politician openly calling for the assassination of Putin now allowed on big tech, fake news. Do you think that L. Graham is panicking along with the other deep state players who have been exposed? :unsure::unsure::tongue:



Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
·
Mar 3, 2022
Is there a Brutus in Russia? Is there a more successful Colonel Stauffenberg in the Russian military?

The only way this ends is for somebody in Russia to take this guy out.

You would be doing your country - and the world - a great service.
Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
The only people who can fix this are the Russian people.

Easy to say, hard to do.

Unless you want to live in darkness for the rest of your life, be isolated from the rest of the world in abject poverty, and live in darkness you need to step up to the plate.
 

Witchyone

Well-known member
That was Putin's job in East Germany as a KGB agent, targeting people trying to get past the Berlin Wall into West Germany. He's re-living his youth.

I'm wondering why we did not see this on the news when he did this to Chechnya and Syria. Perhaps if we had seen it, instead of just hearing about it, we as a world population would have stopped him before now. The brutality is mind-boggling.

The Denazification line he's selling the Russian people is one of the most ridiculously transparent and disgusting lies I've ever heard. This is what he will tell the Russian people about every democracy because he doesn't want them to want democracy.

I may not know what's going on, but this woman sure as hell does.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340
 

Witchyone

Well-known member
The important thing is to save ukranian lives. To stop the fighting. To stop the destruction. To stop millions of people from having to flee in terror.

Its not about the "hero" getting some media attention.

Its not the virtue signaling from western politicians.

Its not about hating and cursing Putin or harming the russian people.

None of these things will help the Ukranian people. Negotiating peace will help the Ukranian people.

Zelensky is an ineffective leader. He is not doing right by the Ukranian people.

I'm 100% on the side of Ukraine. But they are not going to win, and their strategy is hurting them more than helping them.

If the Ukrainian people believe that death is better than living under the rule of Putin, who the hell are you to say otherwise?
 

david starling

Well-known member
Just as suggested, the only way to end Russian oil imports into the U.S. is to lift the 2019 Trump embargo on oil from Venezuela. Our government is now talking about doing that. I read that it's the same grade as the Russian oil.
 
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