Towards the end of capitalism?

[eternal wanderer]

Just few years back, looking at the ephemeris how Pluto was approaching Capricorn I couldn't really imagine a change of the world system which seemed - although crooked - robust in its fundamentals. Is this still so?

When Pluto entered Capricorn the economic crisis have been beginning. And along it crisis of morals and values cropped puissantly from below the surface.

Next year the Ouranus-Pluto square will occur and will last till 2015. Remeber what was happening around 1968? At that time the current Ouranus-Pluto cycle just began and what is happening now it looks reverberating that time to me.

After about 10 years Pluto will make its natal return in the US natal chart. Could all this bring the system down, and then with Pluto in Aquarius start a more humane and scientically advanced society. The socialistic utopia has fallen to raelity and shattered to pieces. Isn't now time for the capitalistic one, so that the integration of good things in both can take place? A kind of socialistic capitalism?
The Neptune first return after it was discovered in Pisces is helping here with its spiritual turn.

And what about the discovery of Eris and myriads of other rocks?
We surely are going fast.

 

[eternal wanderer]

Here is what Segurelha says:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37023

The cross exactly on my libra sun. I think this might be a shortcut towards progress. Critical moments of severe crisis, individually or collectivly are always the quicker way.

 

[eternal wanderer]

Just read your blog. Many things you answered well there.

 

[Mark]

Incorporating socialism and capitalism is what the grand experiment in democracy (the United States) has been all about. Socialised education is what brought our literacy rate (basic or higher prose proficiency) from 13% in 1870 up to 86% in 2003. There never would have been a middle class in the United States if not for socialised education. The technological revolution would never have been possible. All of the great stuff that Americans take for granted is socialised. The local governments handle roads, emergency response, and general law enforcement. The state governments handle state highways, state highway patrols, state bureaus of investigation, state education programs, and so forth. The federal government handles interstate highways, the military itself (supporting our troops is socialism), federal law enforcement of many varieties, intelligence agencies, social security, federal education programs, and many more things. All of these are funded by tax-payer dollars and organised by representative government. Socialism made the United States great.

In fact, the more regulations that get removed, the tighter the strangle-hold capitalism has on America. There never has been such a thing as a free market and that is so for a reason. A completely free market is ruled by the law of the jungle. A totally free market is anarchy, the strong ruling and exploiting the weak. The capitalist free market must be regulated by socialist, humanitarian principles. No matter how great a capitalist engine is, it needs regulation. If you have an old car with a carburetor, all I have to do is remove a nut or two from the junction that regulates the accelerator and your engine will speed up indefinitely until it devours itself (spectacularly).

I believe the grand experiment in democracy is bringing us our answers. It's not the system of government that is the problem. It's the people. The choices of the people are of great importance, both individually and collectively, but the wool gets pulled over our eyes. We are so easy to fool when we are kept fat and comfy. A few of the people are controlling and exploiting most of the people. In the study of history, whenever we see this stage set, we should already know what is about to happen.

As to the astrology, check out where Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto will be in the 2020's. Watch as each one passes into a new sign. First Pluto entering Aquarius (2023), returning to the position it held at the time of the American revolutionary war. Then Neptune entering Aries (2024), returning to the position it held at the time of the American civil war. Then Uranus entering Gemini (2025), returning to the position it held at the time of the American civil war and World War II. It seems that the mid-2020's will be a time in which America is involved with serious conflict that will probably have global implications and may have to do with awakening the collective awareness of the human cause of human suffering.

 

[Yuusha]

Until Pluto in Capricorn, I didn't realize how corrupt the political and economic systems could be. But then the 2008 election (I was deeply disillusioned by the electoral process) and the economic crisis came along.

I wonder if the economic crisis took place so that people could impartially witness the corruption of the economic system by reducing the means to participate in it.

I think capitalism will end in America. Pluto's transit in America's 2nd house signals that America must redefine value and worth in order to survive. And it will have to go way beyond the concepts of capitalism tempered by socialist ideas, raw capitalism and total socialism. I feel like my ideas about an economy have considerably evolved, and I don't feel like it can be categorized because my priority is how to provide basic needs, so it meant entering new uncharted territory intellectually speaking.

I do not like the way the monetary system has warped human relationships such as the way people find any way possible to save a buck and the way people find any way to make a buck. Regulation will not get rid of that behavior which is triggered by the need for money for basic needs.

I also think the monetary system and especially capitalism make it difficult to put human potential to good use. It's incredibly immoral and it's also materially wasteful (I am ethical and materialistic, it's just that my definition of materialism involves the water, the wood, the air...that humans, animals and plants rely on to survive).

I'd rather be stingy with the use of wood and other materials than money for healthcare. I want to create natural resource budgets actually. ^^

I also find the monetary system to be very rigid and anti-scientific because when someone proposes a better way of doing things, people who have profited from an old technology want to prevent its existence or availability. Moreover, if it's not "cost-effective" despite a host of other benefits...

And then if someone discovers that a product someone has profited from is hazardous...it's very difficult to get that knowledge recognized. It took a very long time for the hazards of tobacco to be recognized, and many deaths could have been prevented.

This problem is going to occur over and over again unless a more flexible economic system exists.

Now yes, there are human behavior issues to deal with (such as knowing when to defend an idea and when to adopt a new one), and religious as well as ethnic tensions will still exist. I also realize that democracy should focus on ideas (that way people can accept more easily that people will not agree on every single thing. In fact the only person one will agree with 100% of the time is oneself!) and occasionally selecting talented people for a specific task (if someone is particularly gifted in helping implement a program in ecology or astronomy or healthcare etc.) rather than electing people or having political parties (electing people and having political parties make people too rigid and desperate to imitate someone or something, even if the doors were opened to non-corporate voices).

I do not think money will be completely eliminated because countries like Angola and India are probably still going to use money (there has to be a way to get Bollywood films and travel, eh?), but I think currency can be produced in a non-wasteful manner (not involving gold or paper, but electronic currency), have genuine worth (not involving debt or exclusively traditional labor, but things like self-care, raising children and hobbies as well), and I think money can play a much less important role in our lives (I think money should only be used to interact with countries that still use money for the sake of avoiding isolation or to get imports that America is incapable of producing. It shouldn't be necessary to require money to have shelter or food. Ensuring basic needs guarantees happiness and will free up a lot more time for people to engage in philosophy etc.).

The problem is that in the current framework, a lot of personal sacrifice is needed for public health or environmental regulations. The worst part is that these regulations get easily rolled back because while they make sense, they're seen as optional luxuries in the eyes of the economic system.

I cringe when I see India repeat the same mistake the US made about asbestos to say the least...

So the 2020s will be turbulent for America as well? I wonder how to deal with that...

It is true that Pluto in Aquarius will be transiting my 12th house, so will it be better to help America by advising a mayor sympathetic (there aren't that many, but there are a small bunch) to the grievances of protesters or something while Pluto in Capricorn is transiting the edge of my 10th and 11th houses? Or do I have to wait for Pluto in Pisces?

 

[Vista]

Just few years back, looking at the ephemeris how Pluto was approaching Capricorn I couldn't really imagine a change of the world system which seemed - although crooked - robust in its fundamentals. Is this still so?

When Pluto entered Capricorn the economic crisis have been beginning. And along it crisis of morals and values cropped puissantly from below the surface.

Next year the Ouranus-Pluto square will occur and will last till 2015. Remeber what was happening around 1968? At that time the current Ouranus-Pluto cycle just began and what is happening now it looks reverberating that time to me.

After about 10 years Pluto will make its natal return in the US natal chart. Could all this bring the system down, and then with Pluto in Aquarius start a more humane and scientically advanced society. The socialistic utopia has fallen to raelity and shattered to pieces. Isn't now time for the capitalistic one, so that the integration of good things in both can take place? A kind of socialistic capitalism?
The Neptune first return after it was discovered in Pisces is helping here with its spiritual turn.

And what about the discovery of Eris and myriads of other rocks?
We surely are going fast.

It probably will bring it down. You should also look to the aspect patterns of the outer planets to the US natal chart(Gemini ASC) during the stock market crash of 29' and subsequent Great Depression. While the T planets are placed in different signs, there is a Grand Cross formation to the natal Chart of the US. Throughout history in the United States, whenever there was a Grand Cross there was a Great Depression. Robert Gover, economic astrologer feels we are headed towards a Great Depression bottoming out around 2015. He feels recovery could begin as early as 2018-19 with the right leaders, but most likely mid 2020's.
He has some very interesting articles he's written. Here is a radio show he did back in 2007 talking about the economic crisis.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2007/12/09

 

[Mark]

Yuusha: I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but you seem to be one of those dreaded and feared socialists. You think that the government built by the people has a responsibility to take care of the people. You think poor people don't deserve to die from preventable conditions. You think that money is just a means to an end, not a god that outweighs human life. How could you be so insane?

Socialism is the idea that the needs of the people should be met by transparent, representative government that controls the resources of the people publicly, rather than allowing private ownership of necessities. In short, when the necessities for life are controlled privately, exploitation is the only expected result. If all necessities (or resources needed for them) are publicly controlled and given freely to the people as needed, that is a socialist system. So, here's a rocket science question. What kind of person wants to live under socialism and what kind wants to live under capitalism?

P.S. I'll say it again! Socialism made the United States great in the first place!

 

[byjove]

Yuusha: I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but you seem to be one of those dreaded and feared socialists. You think that the government built by the people has a responsibility to take care of the people. You think poor people don't deserve to die from preventable conditions. You think that money is just a means to an end, not a god that outweighs human life. How could you be so insane?

Actually I think you just described me too!

And God I hope it's the end of capitalism. Capitalism is enslaving the very middle class created freely under socialism. We're paying for their insanity.

 

[Vista]

Actually I think you just described me too!

And God I hope it's the end of capitalism. Capitalism is enslaving the very middle class created freely under socialism. We're paying for their insanity.

Name a successful socialist county? The United States is a free market capitalist country where you take care of yourself, you are free to succeed or fail, and government should only provide a safety net. Humans are not perfect and we have a desire to excel, under Socialism there are no rewards to those who achieve so why produce if government provides everything? No more innovation because there is no reward, why work, and why produce? It never works and government fails, just look at Europe it’s in free fall .http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/5616.aspx
When you take away people’s incentive to work, they don’t. Look at what we did to many communities with the welfare state. We give people incentive to have babies out of wedlock because they get more money and entitlements. We give them free housing, food, medical and cash and took away their incentive to take care of themselves. Take Katrina, other parishes left before the hurricane, people went to higher land in St Bernard’s Parish, in Metairie, the people took care of themselves; the 9th ward where most of its residents are on welfare, did nothing, they waited for the government to take care of them. I am not suggesting the government should not have done something for them and certainly much sooner, but this is just an example of the complacency it propagates. Most of the areas are now rebuilt from being destroyed but not the 9th ward. This is what socialism does, it destroys. In Europe, if they lose their jobs, they get unemployment for life along with massive social programs. The government requires businesses to give employees 2 months’ vacation a year paid -34 hour work weeks .
http://www.hermes-press.com/socialism_failure.htm
Do you think investors would risk money to develop products if there was no reward? Society will always sink to the lowest common denominator – that’s why communism kicks in and free movement is restricted, the people become ruled. In Israel, there are kibbutzes, a communal community where everything is shared, i.e. socialism where everyone is assigned work and everyone is cared for. People that work hard see people who don’t yet receive the same pay, food, housing, so the ones who work hard think “well, why should I bust my butt,” and they don’t ! In a Kibbutz, low producers can be ejected, you can’t do that in a larger society so you have to force people , it never works as human nature won’t allow it.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Yuusha: I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but you seem to be one of those dreaded and feared socialists. You think that the government built by the people has a responsibility to take care of the people. You think poor people don't deserve to die from preventable conditions. You think that money is just a means to an end, not a god that outweighs human life. How could you be so insane? Socialism is the idea that the needs of the people should be met by transparent, representative government that controls the resources of the people publicly, rather than allowing private ownership of necessities.

In short, when the necessities for life are controlled privately, exploitation is the only expected result. If all necessities (or resources needed for them) are publicly controlled and given freely to the people as needed, that is a socialist system. So, here's a rocket science question. What kind of person wants to live under socialism and what kind wants to live under capitalism?

P.S. I'll say it again! Socialism made the United States great in the first place!

Actually I think you just described me too!
And God I hope it's the end of capitalism. Capitalism is enslaving the very middle class created freely under socialism. We're paying for their insanity.

The corrupt Banking system exists solely for the 1% who are feeding off the 99%
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531

 

[byjove]

Name a successful socialist county? The United States is a free market capitalist country where you take care of yourself, you are free to succeed or fail, and government should only provide a safety net. Humans are not perfect and we have a desire to excel, under Socialism there are no rewards to those who achieve so why produce if government provides everything? No more innovation because there is no reward, why work, and why produce? It never works and government fails, just look at Europe it’s in free fall .

Yes I know Europe's in free-fall, I live in it, heck I live in one of the -'bailed-out' countries, I understand this quite well. The vast majority of the rating agencies targeting Europe are American, though an investor recently told me that many of the American families putting their weight behind those ratings are 300 year old British families which settled there. Conspiracies at the ready....I also can't help but notice you live in a state which is officially bankrupt, and you didn't need banks for that. I don't think capitalism did well there either. Effectively the state is completely dependant on the national government.

I'd like to know more about how the rest of the world perceives this. I think we Europeans usually live in a happy bubble believing our own stories - it may well be good for us to snap out of it.

Also, suggesting that something couldn't work or doesn't exist because it hasn't happened yet is a logical error. What in the world could have been achieve in science alone, with that logic. Nothing.

 

[Mark]

Humans are not perfect and we have a desire to excel, under Socialism there are no rewards to those who achieve so why produce if government provides everything? No more innovation because there is no reward, why work, and why produce? It never works and government fails, just look at Europe it’s in free fall

Okay, so if we have a desire to excel, then what is it that makes us so lazy? Further, you are presenting an old, ugly, tired strawman. Under a socialist system, only the necessities of life are guaranteed by the government. All luxury items are still fair game in the open market. You're fighting against points that only you are making. And what are you saying about Europe? Has all innovation and work in Europe completely stopped? Let's be honest about this. It is not impossible to achieve business success in Europe, even today, depending on your business. We're all suffering from a financial crisis right now, so let's not pretend that capitalism has faired any better. We have outrageous debt and a severe budget deficit that accumulated in about a decade (*cough* Bush years *cough* *cough*).

Take Katrina, other parishes left before the hurricane, people went to higher land in St Bernard’s Parish, in Metairie, the people took care of themselves; the 9th ward where most of its residents are on welfare, did nothing, they waited for the government to take care of them. I am not suggesting the government should not have done something for them and certainly much sooner, but this is just an example of the complacency it propagates. Most of the areas are now rebuilt from being destroyed but not the 9th ward.

It's curious that those people who did nothing to prepare and waited on the government to save them are the same people whose homes are the last to be rebuilt. Think about this for a minute. Everybody who could flee the city had already done so. Do you think that those people in the ninth ward might have been the poorest of the poor? They certainly sound like the least capable and most forgotten to me. That's why they need help, not why they don't deserve it!

Do you think investors would risk money to develop products if there was no reward? ...People that work hard see people who don’t yet receive the same pay, food, housing, so the ones who work hard think “well, why should I bust my butt,” and they don’t ! In a Kibbutz, low producers can be ejected, you can’t do that in a larger society so you have to force people , it never works as human nature won’t allow it.

There will always be reward for those who want to work. As said above, a socialist society would only provide the necessities of life. The hard worker would have much nicer and many more possessions than the people who do nothing. Socialism provides just as much upward mobility and expansion potential as capitalism. Socialism only limits downward mobility, so there is a floor with no cracks to fall through. This is that "safety net" that you referred to in your post. Every government has a vested interest in raising and maintaining the quality of life and longevity of its people. In a nation founded of the people, by the people, and for the people, what greater thing could the government do than serve the people who need the most?

 

[Vista]

Yes I know Europe's in free-fall, I live in it, heck I live in one of the -'bailed-out' countries, I understand this quite well. The vast majority of the rating agencies targeting Europe are American, though an investor recently told me that many of the American families putting their weight behind those ratings are 300 year old British families which settled there. Conspiracies at the ready....I also can't help but notice you live in a state which is officially bankrupt, and you didn't need banks for that. I don't think capitalism did well there either. Effectively the state is completely dependant on the national government.

I'd like to know more about how the rest of the world perceives this. I think we Europeans usually live in a happy bubble believing our own stories - it may well be good for us to snap out of it.

Also, suggesting that something couldn't work or doesn't exist because it hasn't happened yet is a logical error. What in the world could have been achieve in science alone, with that logic. Nothing.

Yep, you are correct California is near bankruptcy. We have a number of problems unrelated to banking. A lot of our economy was dependent on building and real-estate, which you probably even know living in Europe the bubble has burst on that. Also, we suffered a dot com boom and subsequent bust and we have one of the highest influxes of illegal immigration which also drains our social services and suppresses wages. Finally, add in 35% corporate taxes, expensive energy, abusive labor laws, over regulation on just about everything else and there is nowhere to go but out of state and bankrupt it seems. For the first time in history we have more legal residents leaving than moving in. But remember, we did very well for decades under capitalism. As for suggesting Socialism couldn't work, did you take a look at the links I posted? They were kind of interesting and addresses this. But you said yourself Europe is in a free-fall and there are many European countries that are Socialist run, aren't most of them? Just asking, not sure on that one. So it might be prudent to say that is won't work as it has already been proven not to in Europe, right? Like you, I would be interested in hearing why you think, as someone who live in a Socialist environment why Socialism is better than Capitalism. I have heard other's views who live here in the US, but I would be curious from your perspective. Do you think your country would do better if it had more Capitalism and perhaps if our country had more Socialism, hence a combination of both as Mark talked about? Just curious what you think and not trying to put you on the defensive.

 

[Zonark]

This is a touchy issue, however I do not think Capitalism is a problem in the U.S. since we are not functioning in a Capitalist society in the first place. What we have in America is a crisis that is being caused by a currency which is allowing for infinite growth with a concurrently infinite interest cap.

The U.S. dollar, printed by the Federal Reserve (a private organization outside of control by the U.S. by the way, it isn't Federal or a Reserve) is a fiat currency. What that means is, it is backed only by faith in its value. It is not direcly backed by gold, by the GDP or anything. The GDP and GDC indirectly impact its value but ultimately its value comes from the number of bills in circulation, the interest charged on those bills by the Federal Reserve and the psychological value placed on the dollar.

The problem with this system is we live on a planet with finite resources but we are using a currency system that is assuming that so long as we can sustain infinite exponential economic growth, we will always be able to pay off the interest charged for using those dollars. What this system expects is that, by the end of the day America's hard work and ingenuity is worth more than what the dollar and its interest was yesterday and by tomorrow, that hard work and ingenuity would have to increase doubly. This is not realistic by any means.

We do not have the resources on this planet to sustain such a paradigm. It simply is not going to happen. It violates the first law of Thermodynamics to function with an assumption of limitless exponential growth. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only manipulated. Limitless exponential growth requires infinite energetic input from a finite pool of energy. As it is we aren't nearly as smart as we had hoped, we're still relying on a fossil fuel for nearly everything and oil is running out fast. Alternative energy sources will not be able to replace what we have done with oil. We don't just use oil for energy, anything plastic, anything made by machinery, anything electrical, almost all of it is made from, powered by or used for producing oil. It's even used in most food products as a precursor for chemical additives, growing the food, keeping pests under control... pretty much anything technological on this planet has become dependent on oil.

Peak oil has already happened. This fact is being kept from the public because it is basically a death sentence for our entire economic infrastructure. Money is truly the root of all evil, that has never been more clear to me than now.

 

[Vista]

Okay, so if we have a desire to excel, then what is it that makes us so lazy? Further, you are presenting an old, ugly, tired strawman. Under a socialist system, only the necessities of life are guaranteed by the government. All luxury items are still fair game in the open market. You're fighting against points that only you are making. And what are you saying about Europe? Has all innovation and work in Europe completely stopped? Let's be honest about this. It is not impossible to achieve business success in Europe, even today, depending on your business. We're all suffering from a financial crisis right now, so let's not pretend that capitalism has faired any better. We have outrageous debt and a severe budget deficit that accumulated in about a decade (*cough* Bush years *cough* *cough*).
Most people by human nature have desire to excel, but you can't continue to take from the producer to lift another up to equalize their lot in life and then and expect them to keep producing. Why would they? They can be a non-producer and still do as well. It's like what Vagabound said in her country, you can get a higher education and spend all this time getting it, yet someone who has limited higher education makes the same amount of money so many don't bother.
You do know that Bush ran the deficit up 4.9 trillion and Obama has taken it from 10.626 to 14.639 trillion? We will never be out of debt, impossible.

It's curious that those people who did nothing to prepare and waited on the government to save them are the same people whose homes are the last to be rebuilt. Think about this for a minute. Everybody who could flee the city had already done so. Do you think that those people in the ninth ward might have been the poorest of the poor? They certainly sound like the least capable and most forgotten to me. That's why they need help, not why they don't deserve it!

They had their legs didn't they? I don't know but If it was life or death(which it was) espcially if I had children you bet i would have gotten us to higher ground somehow even if it meant we had to walk miles to do it. No one said they didn't deserve it being rescued and I said as much. Why were there 200 buses sitting in the NOLA Depot unused? Terry Ebbert, Director of NOLA's emergency management agency and the Major of New Orleans magaged to get out safely, maybe they should have done a better job of making sure of getting their citizens out. Why is it so "curious" the 9th district homes are the last to be rebuilt? Those people have already been placed in homes in other cities. There has been several documentaries about them, many don't want to go back where there was zero opportunity. Most are in a better place in new cities.


There will always be reward for those who want to work. As said above, a socialist society would only provide the necessities of life. The hard worker would have much nicer and many more possessions than the people who do nothing. Socialism provides just as much upward mobility and expansion potential as capitalism. Socialism only limits downward mobility, so there is a floor with no cracks to fall through. This is that "safety net" that you referred to in your post. Every government has a vested interest in raising and maintaining the quality of life and longevity of its people. In a nation founded of the people, by the people, and for the people, what greater thing could the government do than serve the people who need the most?

Truth be told, I wouldn't be opposed to two month's vacation each year and 32 hour work weeks. Maybe people would be more productive.

Well, we will see what happens, you can see the transits that are coming up to the United States Natal chart. Not good. Last Grand Cross we had was the Great Depression and stock crash. I believe we have quite a few years left of a downward spiral spiral economically, and like Astrologer Robert Gover I do believe it will be well into the 2020's before see this. Pluto I Capricorn, seems pretty retrictive, getting down to the nitty gritty, certainly not suggesitve of Socialism to me but something more hash for this country.

 

[JUPITERASC]

This is a touchy issue, however I do not think Capitalism is a problem in the U.S. since we are not functioning in a Capitalist society in the first place. What we have in America is a crisis that is being caused by a currency which is allowing for infinite growth with a concurrently infinite interest cap.

The U.S. dollar, printed by the Federal Reserve (a private organization outside of control by the U.S. by the way, it isn't Federal or a Reserve) is a fiat currency. What that means is, it is backed only by faith in its value. It is not direcly backed by gold, by the GDP or anything. The GDP and GDC indirectly impact its value but ultimately its value comes from the number of bills in circulation, the interest charged on those bills by the Federal Reserve and the psychological value placed on the dollar.

The problem with this system is we live on a planet with finite resources but we are using a currency system that is assuming that so long as we can sustain infinite exponential economic growth, we will always be able to pay off the interest charged for using those dollars. What this system expects is that, by the end of the day America's hard work and ingenuity is worth more than what the dollar and its interest was yesterday and by tomorrow, that hard work and ingenuity would have to increase doubly. This is not realistic by any means.

We do not have the resources on this planet to sustain such a paradigm. It simply is not going to happen. It violates the first law of Thermodynamics to function with an assumption of limitless exponential growth. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only manipulated. Limitless exponential growth requires infinite energetic input from a finite pool of energy. As it is we aren't nearly as smart as we had hoped, we're still relying on a fossil fuel for nearly everything and oil is running out fast. Alternative energy sources will not be able to replace what we have done with oil. We don't just use oil for energy, anything plastic, anything made by machinery, anything electrical, almost all of it is made from, powered by or used for producing oil. It's even used in most food products as a precursor for chemical additives, growing the food, keeping pests under control... pretty much anything technological on this planet has become dependent on oil.

Peak oil has already happened. This fact is being kept from the public because it is basically a death sentence for our entire economic infrastructure. Money is truly the root of all evil, that has never been more clear to me than now.

It would appear then that capitalism has already ended Zonark

 

[tsmall]

This is a touchy issue, however I do not think Capitalism is a problem in the U.S. since we are not functioning in a Capitalist society in the first place. What we have in America is a crisis that is being caused by a currency which is allowing for infinite growth with a concurrently infinite interest cap.

The U.S. dollar, printed by the Federal Reserve (a private organization outside of control by the U.S. by the way, it isn't Federal or a Reserve) is a fiat currency. What that means is, it is backed only by faith in its value. It is not direcly backed by gold, by the GDP or anything. The GDP and GDC indirectly impact its value but ultimately its value comes from the number of bills in circulation, the interest charged on those bills by the Federal Reserve and the psychological value placed on the dollar. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the entire reason money was "created" in the first place was so that the barter system could become more portable? Meaning that the blacksmith might not need a chicken as payment, but the miller further down the line did? Seriously, the gold standard/silver standard is an older, antiquated idea. Money backed by gold? When people are starving, will gold feed them? Interest charged, wages earned, inflation, cost of goods, what the dollar values at now compared to how it valued in my grandparents' time...the number of bills in circulation is not the point, the point is what the exchange of services/goods represents in the market?

The problem with this system is we live on a planet with finite resources but we are using a currency system that is assuming that so long as we can sustain infinite exponential economic growth, we will always be able to pay off the interest charged for using those dollars. What this system expects is that, by the end of the day America's hard work and ingenuity is worth more than what the dollar and its interest was yesterday and by tomorrow, that hard work and ingenuity would have to increase doubly. This is not realistic by any means.

We do not have the resources on this planet to sustain such a paradigm. It simply is not going to happen. It violates the first law of Thermodynamics to function with an assumption of limitless exponential growth. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only manipulated. Limitless exponential growth requires infinite energetic input from a finite pool of energy. As it is we aren't nearly as smart as we had hoped, we're still relying on a fossil fuel for nearly everything and oil is running out fast. Alternative energy sources will not be able to replace what we have done with oil. We don't just use oil for energy, anything plastic, anything made by machinery, anything electrical, almost all of it is made from, powered by or used for producing oil. It's even used in most food products as a precursor for chemical additives, growing the food, keeping pests under control... pretty much anything technological on this planet has become dependent on oil. As you say, everything has become dependent on oil...but don't ever forget that necessity is the mother of invention. As we are even now seeing, the cost of oil is going up, due in large part to the economic development of previously considered "third world" countries. China and India will soon surpass (and who would have thought it possible?) the US in terms of oil consumption...Americans are nothing if not ingenious at adapting to changing circumstances.

Peak oil has already happened. This fact is being kept from the public because it is basically a death sentence for our entire economic infrastructure. Money is truly the root of all evil, that has never been more clear to me than now.

Zonark, Bible 101...the love of money is the root of all evil.

1 Timothy, 6:10

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Which perhaps explains Matthew 19:24?

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Having said this...I am not a Christian (not traditionally, anyway..May the Force be with you?)

Today's economic problems (and yesterday's, and tomorrow's) IMHO stem from the fact that most people don't want to think about the economic problems. Heck, we just want to live our lives, eat our dinners, and go to bed feeling like we matter. As Mark and JUPITERASC have implied above, it's really about manupliation of the masses (and always has been, by those seeking power over others) by the disemination of controlled information. The only way this ever will change (and, historically, the masses have come together to effect change...we just need to be "uncomfortable" enough to do so) is when enough people are fed up with not having their needs met...

 

[JUPITERASC]

Zonark, Bible 101...the love of money is the root of all evil. 1 Timothy, 6:10 Which perhaps explains Matthew 19:24?
Having said this...I am not a Christian (not traditionally, anyway..May the Force be with you?).

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Some claim that "camel" is a Greek misprint; that kamilos (camel) was a misprint of kamêlos, meaning "rope" or "cable". [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So if this was indeed a misprint then this is a case of misinterpretation. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The original word didn't mean simply "rope", but it referred to a very specific category of ropes: i.e. the mooring lines or hawsers, known for being very large and thick. This would then make more sense if the words are actually: [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]“easier for the mooring line-rope of a boat to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven”. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There are still traces of this origin nowadays: in the port of Genoa, Italy, the dockworkers are known in the local dialect as "Camalli".[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The word itself is indeed a mutation from the Arabic Hamal which means Dromedar[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]y [/FONT]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Live Long and Prosper [/FONT]

Today's economic problems (and yesterday's, and tomorrow's) IMHO stem from the fact that most people don't want to think about the economic problems. Heck, we just want to live our lives, eat our dinners, and go to bed feeling like we matter. As Mark and JUPITERASC have implied above, it's really about manupliation of the masses (and always has been, by those seeking power over others) by the disemination of controlled information. The only way this ever will change (and, historically, the masses have come together to effect change...we just need to be "uncomfortable" enough to do so) is when enough people are fed up with not having their needs met...

And on that note a link to a documentary illustrating clearly how those in power (with the assistance of Edward Bernays, a nephew of Sigmund Freud) have used the theories of psychology to control the 'dangerous masses' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPzGUsYyKM

 

[piercethevale]

I haven't read all the posts here...but Mark's statement, "Socialism is what made America great, and that comment about supporting the military is socialism.

...as to the first comment...I disagree. what made America...and made her far greater than any contribution by 'Socialism'. Socialism is an imposed system...by either a majority consent, a plurality consent or a despotic but physically superior, aggressive and threatening entity that one must consent to.
I believe that the credit belongs to 'Creationism'...as the Declaration of Independence so stated:

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government...."

True Communalism [as that taught by Yeshua/Jesus..[not 'Communism as it was known and called in the U.S.S.R. ..which in all reality and 'truth in labeling' was 'Bolshevism"]...is when all those within the community take care of their fellow humans needs by sharing what they have, themselves come into immediate possession of, with anyone that has need of...as to of all that of which you list, as that, which has been provided by 'socialism' ."
I know, that this belief and attitude is not shared nor acknowledged and or practiced by a great many of our fellow countrymen. As such just as many or even more doubt that it exists or has had any contributing influence.
Well, there are a great number of us that do...[how great a number?...I can't say for sure...but out of 320 million...I can say with confidence it is a sizable amount...a million of us....sounds reasonable enough for me to concur with...give or take.]...and that part of the text in the Declaration which is most poignant, as to that, is said here: "... all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." ...that is what is known as being 'meek'...that is, 'long suffering"...'turning the other cheek'...

I admire, endorse, embrace and believe in 'Communalism'...none of which I have for 'Socialism'.
First and foremost is the respect one must honor for anothers' right to be completely left alone if they so desire...as long as they aren't hurting anyone..[and not by omission...please!?!...because; "I didn't provide you with free medical and you died!"... is not my Karma.]

Usury is a G**D****d sin...We have been subjected to Usury and made an unwilling partner in the committing of this sin since Woodrow Wilson bought the 'Fed. Reserve System' deal that we have been stuck with ever since WW I and the 'legal obligation' of paying income tax...which is a service fee and the interest on the fiat money provided by the member banks of European origin and control. Interest is Usury.
Usury is also defined as charging 'rent' for a dwelling or land on which one wishes to reside on...where one can lay their head and sleep.
Sleep is a God given necessity. The Earth was given by God to be humankinds home... provider of food and all other sustenance, and, also that, upon which humankind was given by God to lie down upon and rest...without being told by a city council otherwise [Homeless] ...without being told by a landlord otherwise [Usury] ...btw I rent a two bedroom apt...because I am pretty much forced too...as no other place would rent to me in 2007 due to my financial problems that came about due to my work disability lawsuit process [bankrupt for all but getting the 'legal decree']...and I give the other room rent free to someone I know that has the need...[got its' own bathroom too]...I don't buy on credit. I don't change interest to anyone that borrows money from me...and i don't gamble...[gambling is Usury].

The other statement about supporting a permanent military...well..as to the USA, these last ...oh say...150-160 years...that is what I call Imperialism...some social scientists [Political scientists] have called Capitalism [as it is practiced presently cannot exist without periodic war]...I got a few other isms that apply to that as well...but, I believe I made my point.
[and..as always...this is ...IMHO...of course...]


If you all read the various threads I have posted on the Trans-Martian Planets for the last 2 years and into next year you'll notice I described and indicated the likelihood of all that you've been talking about.. demonstrating the technique and veracity of using Sabian Symbology interpretation as was described by Dane Rudhyar via Planets in retrograde process.
http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=204
http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=235
http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=273
http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=275
http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=278

..and this thread is supportive by association as to the others.
http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=175

 

[piercethevale]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4430543376785758889#00m25s