The Twelfth House Discussion Board

Arian Maverick

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I have stumbled upon an informative article from the site Studies in Astrology by Elman Bacher called Neptune Patterns--The Twelfth House and thought this to be a perfect springboard for discussion.

The main feature of the article is a series of descriptions of "the different types of twelfth- house Ascendant patterns...for application to different horoscopes."

Here is the pattern that best describes my natal chart:

Pattern III: Twelfth house containing an intercepted sign: a very complex combination of "memories;" planets in either of the twelfth house signs will objectify the past conditions; to the degree that they are frictionally or gravitationally aspected will the person by pain- experience, face his "flowers of evil"--the seeds of which may have been planted even previous to the last incarnation. This pattern is "payment long overdue;" it is in the nature of a "notice of eviction"--unredeemed in this incarnation the bill will have to be adjusted in a future cycle of experience.

Let the discussion begin! :D

Arian Maverick


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12 th , 12th house.........where to begin?
First of all I must say that for some reason I seem to attract or be attracted to, men with sun or moon or both in this house, actually alot of people get in my orb w personal planets in this house. Maybe its because I have Uranus & Pluto in there?
These people are DEFINITELY interesting, perhaps my Scorpio moon attracts me to their mysterious nature or secretiveness. Maybe I'm generalizing but I find many people w this placement of personal planets to be Liars. Also pyschic. And hard to grasp. Yet very deep, intense. Also mentally or emotionally ill to some degree. Brilliant yet on the verge.

I have come to the conclusion at this point (I know I know I'm being prejudice) But when I meet people & there is an intensity of any sort, they usually have personal planets in the 12th & from now on , when I see this placement, I try to avoid them because it usually is time for some intense games.
Sorry , just my personal experience.

Anyone else get this?


I agree. I have sun, moon, mercury all in the twelfth, and people say I'm quiet.. well they are wrong, because I also have Uranus in the third, and a strong air element in my chart, but of course they don't know..
I think I am secretive, and that if I don't tell people things, they will never know, and I can act well, (innocent or evil), but most of my time, I keep the little devil inside me.. sh..


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hi sib,
interesting that you can admit this, but then again , if I make the natives aware of this placement & its meanings, they will readily agree, but still not divulge too much. In fact I think most are unaware of who they are really or what it is EXACTLY they feel since the REAL identity or emotional depth is on a very deep and unconscious level. I think it takes some positive aspects to neptune & merc to really be able to grasp the material or "worldly" identity. And a bit of evolution of the soul.
Unless of course a career is chosen that developes the strength of these placements as I believe it requires constant work to bring the "real", in a tangible sense, person to the surface. or possibly therapy or evolved studies but there it would probably be limited to the class or session times, w work it must be integrated on a daily basis, thus making it somewhat more comfortable for expression and exposure to others i would think.


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:) Why, hi Arian Mav!

I think this is pertinent to me:
"It is very interesting to study charts that have the same sign on twelfth as on the Ascendant. These charts have two principal classifications: (1) those with the succeeding sign intercepted in the first house; (2) those with the succeeding sign on the second cusp. The first classification tells us that the person may have been out of incarnation for an unusually long time; he has to "tie in" with his past in this incarnation, recapitulate something of his past mistakes--if the ruler of the twelfth house and Ascendant is congested, learn from his mistakes, apply more constructive measures and then move in sequence to the progressive vibration represented by the sign intercepted in the first house. This pattern promises progress in this incarnation but it also promises that the person, subconsciously tending to live this incarnation in terms of his past, will bring himself to a "blank wall"--the power of congestion representing that the resources from the past have become depleted; his natural urge to progress will be timed for awareness to the potentials represented by the intercepted sign in the first house, and, tuning in with this vibration will represent a "new life" in consciousness. He then, largely, will feel the urge to "leave the past" and throw in his lot with the "vibratory companion" represented by the planetary influence of the intercepted sign in the first house. This pattern also qualifies his marital consciousness since the first house interception has its complement intercepted in the seventh. It is a twofold awareness of new life and his complementary-relationship consciousness must unfold and progress if he is really to transcend the gravitational or congested pull of past negatives. If the second cusp is covered by the next sign in sequence, then we know that the person is destined in this incarnation to express a higher octave of quality of his past, and if the interception in his chart indicates that the cusp of his fourth or tenth house is in the same generic trine that his Ascendant-sign is in, we know that that parent-- father or mother--represents an outpicturing of the best of the person's past as a contribution to the best of his development in this incarnation. No one ever exactly repeats a level from one incarnation to the next--upwardness is always a factor to be considered in karmic interpretation."

AND, in my 12th House is Chiron, at 7 deg Sag; my ASC is 20 deg Sag;
Vesta is in the first house alone at 27 deg Sag which means, of course,
that Cap is intercepted...and structural formation is needed to "enter" -- i.e. accept being in 1st House Capricorn's domain (Saturn return this year?).

BUT, what I really want to say is like....
I just got a secret message
just as I was beginning to write this reply...I heard
an eagle call in the sky and ran outside to see one eagle flying Northwest
in a beautiful blue sky with perfectly graceful cirrus clouds...
then, as I looked up I saw
emerging from behind the roof, two eagles soaring on an updraft,
flying in a circle.

As I looked for the first eagle, she had disappeared...
or maybe she was actually
the newly fledged immature eagle that suddenly joined the adults.

As I watched the eagles, two playful hummingbirds flew across my line of

This is my second eagle message I've received in
three days; the first message was an eagle in a tree next to me,
with four crows taking turns dive-bombing it, using somersaulting crow
coming at it from behind or from above, turning on their
backs like hummingbirds hovering for a second in front of its face.

All the eagle did was shrug and
say "You crazy crows!" Then it flew quickly down to the water,
and then away...

Today one solitary crow tried to fly as high as the eagles
but could not maintain
the heights on which the eagles cruised with wings outspread.
I watched until the two adults
took off one after the other in a bee-line to the Northwest,
followed by their kid.

Re: 12th House. Thanks for the insight. I see that I've been living in the past (ancient lives) I'm
here and am preparing (with Lapis' help) to embrace a Capricorny

Powerful message, Arian. Thanks!



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Hi, I have my moon in Libra in the 12th house and Uranus in Scorpio In the 12th House and North Node in Scorpio in the 12th house. I also have my Asc in Scorpio. I am not sure how to interpret this, can anyone help?


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I find this very interesting. I have met someone recently with the sun and ascendant in 12 th house and find myself having serious doubts about his honesty! I had not thought about the 12th house before but now that this thread has started, I will be paying more attention. My intiuition told me from the start there was something 'fishy' about his authenticity but can't put my finger on it right now. My neptune in Scorpio will get to work.....!:p
I'm not saying everyone with a placement like this is a 'liar', the secrecy part seems to be very true....there is nothing wrong with it..just want to investigate because it seems to be pertinent to my 'new beau'.

Good idea for the thread..thanks Arian!



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and if the interception in his chart indicates that the cusp of his fourth or tenth house is in the same generic trine that his Ascendant-sign is in,

Could you explain more in detail what this means? Do you mean if planets in the 4th or 10th house trine the planet in the ascendant sign?

I love the 12th house, I missed this thread I will have to read it in more depth to understand what she means. I have just been reading a little about the 12th house today in Richard Idemon's book. Here is a little of it which I found interesting.

The 12th house is another area of the chart that can influence what you attract or influence in terms of relationship. Because the 12th shows what lies right beneath the persona, planets there (or the sign or signs spanning the 12th house) often symbolize archetypal qualities or characteristics that your persona deems unacceptable. Or you can look at it this way: if the Ascendant represents the mask we show the world (which is just one of the many things the Ascendant signifies), then it could be said that our mask is a compensatory reaction for what is hidden behind it in the 12th. The 12th house being one big psychic closet, and if you look in the 12th, you'll see what is hidden behind your mask.

I am a Virgo Ascendant with Leo on the 12th house.
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I have Venus in Aquarius and Jupiter in Aries in 12th house. I indeed love the 12th house, I feel that it is the place in my chart which is the most challenging in the way is seen in my life (I have had a lot of illness in my life, I have been in hospital for many months...), but it is the greatest strenght also. I feel that these experiences have made me really the person I am and it has helped me to be happy about life in general and in specific. So it is at the same time my weakest and my strongest link.

One thing I have always thought about, is the Venus in 12th in Aquarius. I have strong humanitarian goals (as you might expect), but I am a little confused because it is in 12th house - shouldn't this mean that I am not very keen on showing my loving emotions? Because I am. Maybe it is because of my Moon in Cancer, but I always say to people how much I care and I am always the one who shares the compliments and loving comments. I feel that this is a good thing and that I need to express my love, but it is somehow so different than what have thought about Venus in 12th.

I have had some secret love affairs (which did not end well :() and something like that which really is connected to the Venus in 12th house thing.

Jupiter in 12th is also one of my favourite childs. Sometimes I just think, that isn 't little unfair that I have every "good" planet in 12th house and I feel that I am being punished somehow, but usually I am quite happy with these placements...


I was wondering so, Arian.
You know? I have seen too the studies of Elman Bacher, and it´s very educative. Interesting.

My moon joins saturn in twelfth house on my chart.
The saturn [This time retrograde] could represent for many astrologers, some kind of disadventage, no?
But it can develope its duality, and act on its alternative way.
Retrogradation can open new perspectives: To see the opposite on the concrete.
Then my emotions deeply connected with the inconscient source, are regulated, canalized and administrated by saturn.
Wew... ...I can do this because I have done plenty of effort, to never, never let the visions and blurry thoughts to pass out and then dominate you in the day and torture you in the night.
Make appear the shapes, do them conscient.
My pisces mercury helps me, yes [And I really love it].
Don´t know why I´m sharing this, but my nature is to help, and sometimes I don´t care having no copyright.

I´m very connected with that source. The inconscient source.
So, my fourth house is very charged [With pluto on it].

It is so very interesting, this theme of attractions by planet position too. I´ve noticed I oftenly feel attraction to people with same planetary patterns. But I´ll talk with you about that anoher day...

Good thread Maverick.

And please capricorn people: Don´t punch me.


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I think unless one has some personal planets in the 12th, one will never understand the energy of this secretive, and otherworldly house...I must add I love people with 12th house placements, having my natal sun/leo, merc/virgo, venus/virgo..all in the 12th.
the 12th is certainly an enigma...these people live in other worlds...they do not really relate well to 3D..some have very secret lives...they are certainly not of the mass consciousness unit, by any means...which is good.
My merc/virgo 12, has lead me many wonderful places...both spiritually and physically...where I have learned/ and earned great knowledge. I myself have never experienced the sorrow associated with the 12th...but then we all 'see' things a bit differently...


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I have Jupiter in H12 and have been told many, many times that this is my "guardian angel". I'm not sure where this comes from, or why it's called that exactly.


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For the person with Uranus in Scorpio in house 12 and north node in scorpio in house 12 I have the same placement. I am very intuitive, and it is almost unconscious (uranus is within a few degrees of my ascendant). I believe the north node in scorpio is not being afraid of going into the deepest recesses of the mind to transform. I am a natural student of psychology and study myself the most. This is why I am so attracted to astrology. Hope this helps


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SilverFloe said:
Because jupiter's luck expresses itself in less conscious ways (for example, gambling) and protects you from danger that might otherwise get you killed. (You just happened to walk at just the right time to avoid being hit by that bus)

Hope this helps,

When explained that way, I have to totally agree! I can't tell you how many times I've "lucked out". I hope this doesn't jinx me :p Though, I must say, it hasn't made me lucky where gambling is concerned. I can be betting with rocks and I still lose! :rotflmao:


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Charm said:
For the person with Uranus in Scorpio in house 12 and north node in scorpio in house 12 I have the same placement. I am very intuitive, and it is almost unconscious (uranus is within a few degrees of my ascendant). I believe the north node in scorpio is not being afraid of going into the deepest recesses of the mind to transform. I am a natural student of psychology and study myself the most. This is why I am so attracted to astrology. Hope this helps
This sounds JUST like me, thankyou for the info


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I have my moon in scorpio in the 12th and my ascendent is also scorpio. I rather like this placement. It has not necessarily made anything easy for me other than my excellent intuition but has made nothing really bad for me in my opinion either. I don't lie but quite the opposite. I can be bluntly and brutally honest and I see and sense lying in other people immediately. I can size a situation or person up almost immediately accurately. I don't really lead some secretive private life but I do keep my private life private for the most part and share very little if any of my inner self.
I was in an unplesant discussion with someone 2 nights ago I have known for a little over 2 yrs now. This person acted so much like he knew me which was not true. I shared only 2 things with him and then told him, "You see, you really know nothing about me after 2 yrs except what you know from our conversations where you have learned nothing at all about me." And with that, I sent him on his way, not to see him again. This friendship, if one would call it that, with this person had become not an especially happy one for me anyway so that was all it took.
I do read about moon and ascendent in scorpio but living it is much more knowledgeable. lol


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12th House Jupiter in Scorpio here, my chart ruler too.

I dson't know about 'guardian angels' either, though I have been in one or two dangerous situations that were a close call.

In fact, sometimes I wonder where my Jupiter is and where it is hiding. It is in a moderately strong Gauquelin position, but I am not drawn to power-mongering politics, that's for sure. I have been an activist sometimes, but a pretty **** one. I did enjoy being in an amateur theatre group once, but the way it consumed so much of my time and the egos that emerged, did not appeal so much. I have heard some teachers say that teachng can be similar to acting, some sense of threatre is involved - well all I can say to that is, it sounds a little too mch like that old adage, 'then as can do...'

Oh, well.

The 12th House need for privacy and issues with boundarie is an issue in some ways. It may have a bearing on my need for some kind of creative/artisitc activity that constitutes some form of 'soul work.'

My Ceres is in the 12th too, coming closer than ever to forming the last leg of a t-sqaure that has always ben a bit shy of a fixed Grand Cross. It squares my Moon, which I did read somewhere can make for food intolerance, though many members on my moher's sides have long lists of Things to Avoid and I am not sure what their Ceres placements are. I know that Adelle Davis who wrote about nitrition and health turned out to have a Moon Ceres opposition. Bob Marks on his site makes some fairly crass statements about Ceres in Scorpio that I thought were in poor taste, regarding nurturing and sexuality, can't remember what he hado say about 12th House Ceres placements, however.

Then, Neptune is in the 12th by some systems for me and in the 11th by others, squaring Venus. Boundaries come up there again, come to think of it.

What do members here make of the fact that so many powerful political leaders have 12th House Suns?


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Hey guys. I decided to join this thread cause I have Saturn and my Sun in the 12th house. I do like my down time alot. I love to just sit around and read a good astrology book to revejunate me if you will. A liar doesn't fit the discription of me at all. Though I have seen some liars with this placement, One of which has mercury in the 12th. I have the sun and saturn in Sag, a nobler sign, so I read. Growing up, especailly in highschool I always kept low key. Never talked unless I was talked to. I made new friends but not as many as I could. I think the sun in the 12th contributed to this, or the sun very well conjunct saturn seems likley. The sun in the 12th house almost deffenitly has to with my dispersonalization. Look it up. Sometimes I sit there and completely dissovle who I'am. Feeling like I'am just a robot and don't belong here. I still am trying to decifer this placement myself. My friend has his sun in cancer in the 12th and he has anexity. I have read that saturn rejoices in the 12th and that it represses depression. For a period of about a year or so, I felt very depressed and very few people had any idea. The way I handled it was to stuff it down pretty much. But also I read that when the door opens you may feel the weight of the world on ur shoulders from it. I have seen interpratations about saturn rising people being very reluctant to enter this world. Also something about mis-using power in a previous life. I think that was for the sun in the 12th. I am amazed that G.W.B has saturn and his sun in his 12th like me. I'm not very fond of him its kind of a bummer also. But I think If I meet him he would deffenitly remind me of me. There is something about the sun in the 12th in people that you can see on the surface. I'm not sure what though yet. I think its a look in there eyes that you can't trust.