The Shadow Side of Libra

archergirl

Well-known member
But you can't separate natives from the sign. Everyone is born under a sign and planets in several signs. You cannot separate out the shadow/light of a sign from the people who fall under that sign, because they are to a greater or lesser extent a manifestation of that sign. You can't have a 'logical and reasonable' discussion about the shadow side of Aquarius as a 'sign' (stubborn; opinionated) separate from the individuals who bear the marks of that sign, whether through the sun sign or the ascendant.;)

...I mean, I see what you're saying: you're discussing a zodiac sign. But zodiac signs through the ages have come to describe people and their characteristics. Look at the content of this discussion. Almost everyone (almost;)) equates the sign of Libra with individuals who fall under that sign. What I'm saying is that even that is a bit simplistic since there is more to a person than the characteristics of a single sign, anywhere in their chart.

AG:)
 
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gaer

Well-known member
We are in public forum where experienced astrologers, people who are learning (but who have some experience) and people who are just learning the bare basics are all participating in the same discussions. We are always going to run into blanket statements that make experienced people wince or groan, or shake their heads in frustration—OR points that will be too sophisticated for beginners that leave them in total confusion.

I believe it is inevitable that a large percentage of people who read such a subject will:

1) Assume that Libra is about anyone with Sun in Libra.
2) Will not connect "Libra" with anyone who has any OTHER Sun sign but Libra, even if such a person has Moon, AC and personal planets in Libra.
3) Will use "dark side" as an excuse to vent about anyone in their lives they don't like who they can conveniently label with "Libra". :)

The fact is that we can talk about shadow side, dark side or simply negative side of a sign.

We can talk about the bright side or positive side of a sign.

It's just semantics.

This discussion is about the negative side of Libra, just as "the psychology of revenge" was about the negative side of Scorpio, and that discussion has been going on for many pages.

Some people are going to discuss Libra negatives and positives, in a cheerful, positive and potentially helpful way, while others are going to seize upon this topic as a means of getting even with people they have not liked in the past, or do not like now.

It's just "the nature of the beast". :)
 

gaer

Well-known member
archergirl said:
Look at the content of this discussion. Almost everyone (almost;)) equates the sign of Libra with individuals who fall under that sign.
AG:)
I would take your statement one step further.

I would say:

"The majority of people in this discussion or any other equates the sign of Libra with individuals who fall under that Sun sign. :D
 

AquaScorpio

Well-known member
MidnightxPoison said:
I think one MAJOR shadow side of Libra is that they can be extremely moody when they are unbalanced.

My grandfather is a Libra and boy is he moody! O_O

I agree with this, word for word, I was trying to think of the best way to describe my opinion on the shadow side. They do really get moody when something thrown them out of balance. My girlfriend is a Libra Sun with Mercury and Mars conjunct. She has days where she becomes extremely moody and for little things that she blows out of proportion (also very much due to the fact she has a moon in Pisces) but once her emotions come back into order, she's fine again, and it usually doesn't take long. She's also VERY indecisive, she always asks me where we should go, eat, what we should do, and while I am an Aquarius (with a moon in Scorpio) I'm not THE best decision maker unless I actually know the choices. I'd say the biggest shadow trait would be the dependency of Libras. Always have to be around somebody, or with somebody. Once they learn their opinions matter and actually mean something to those around them perhaps they can embrace their independence more. Anyways, to me the shadow side of Libras don't seem as bad as some other signs (Scorpio, Virgo for example).
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
I know what you mean AG.:)

Almost everyone (almost;)) equates the sign of Libra with individuals who fall under that sign.
And that's when it starts to get tricky and slippery;), as this is, though not completely out of line, yet too simplistic. This is when the 'taking things personally bit' (esp the shadowy things;)) usually starts and the rows begin. This is why I am putting in all this energy and effort to 'be the odd one out';) and clear matters once and for all. I even think, at least hope, that this should help some novices in going beyond seeing themselves as simply their Sun signs. They are here to learn *Astrology* after all. They will possess the basic traits - goods and bads - of their solar or lunar zodiac, but they are made up of much more than that. I just want to have the freedom of discussing a simple zodiac. We don't always have to discuss a native's chart, simply because we are discussing a particular zodiac, as we don't aim to discuss/describe that native.

But you can't separate natives from the sign.
No, you can't. But what you can do is go beyond that one sign. Since as you say: "Everyone is born under a sign and planets in several signs.", so everyone will automatically, though carry traits of his 'Sun sign', be much, much more than it. Therefore they will be "a greater or lesser extent a manifestation of that sign." So let us be able to discuss simply the sign than jumping right on to Natal Astro/native. It is like I said in one of my earlier posts, no two solar/lunar Aquarian natives will live out the traits (bright or dark) of that same sign equally because, though they carry the basic traits (stubborn; opinionated) of the Aquarius zodiac, simply because like me they have their Sun, Merc, etc in Aquarius; or, like you AG, their Asc in Aquarius; they will have much more than just these placements and many, many different aspects, which is what makes each of us a very individual 'individual', in the true sense of the Aquarius trait/word;). It goes beyond the "manifestation" of a person's solar or lunar or Asc zodiac.

So yes, whilst I agree that you "can't separate the natives from 'the' sign".....it is very important to think out of the box and go beyond just 'the' sign (usually the Sun sign). Once we get this bit, the wars on this forum, the 'You said Libra is associated with superficiality; I am a Libra, but I am not superficial' sort, will decrease manifold. (My Aquarian vision.) Just look around, this is what (such wars) happens at the drop of a hat on this forum.

What I'm saying is that even that is a bit simplistic since there is more to a person than the characteristics of a single sign, anywhere in their chart.
But, if we want to simply discuss signs like we discuss planets, then we don't talk/need charts because we are not entering into the Natal Astrology zone....that's when you need charts.. We are not aiming to discuss natives, just one of the 12 zodiacs. We want to 'keep it simple' and simply have the freedom of being able to hold a normal discussion about the sign of Aquarius, (or as Natasa quite simply said "basic rules off every sign"), and NOT MY - AQ7's - Sun Sign and My chart. After all you will not always look at my natal chart, everytime you want to talk about the zodiac Aquarius. Surely, I, as an Aquarian native will possess the basic Aquarian traits, and, if we were then to graduate to Natal Astrology level, we will have to start considering natal charts. But that is another 'cup of tea'. The next level perhaps, if I want a chart reading.

Anyway, we need to go explore other threads now. Natasa, I hope the above helps you a bit, too as regards the questions in your post. This is just the kind of freedom I am looking for, to be able to discuss the basic traits of any and every zodiac (both good and bad) "as a first step in Astrology"; keeping it simple and, above all, *impersonal*, and not jump the gun right over to *native* or Natal Astrology every time we even start with the Z of Zodiac signs. This is the kind of simple simplification I am looking for.

G'night
:)AQ7
 

Chimerical

Active member
I would just like to explain that even though I stated that "libras" always hate me..this was obviously an overgeneralization..What I should have made clear was that I have noticed some strange behavior that seemed undeserved from certain individuals who turned out to be sun sign libras..just a coincidence? maybe..then again maybe not ..who can really say for sure? It is definitely worth exploring
 

gaer

Well-known member
natasa812 said:
And if there is no base in ``Sun sign characteristics`` then we have to erase every basic astrology book and magazine...
But this thread is not about Sun in Libra. It is about the negative side of the sign Libra.
If I have Sagittarius in front of me, or a Gemini, generaly speaking I know what I can expect - generaly. Of course that there is more but if we don`t know those ``basic characteristics`` because there are no any, then the whole astrology research done until now is useless.
What can I say then - here I am, Sagittarius, but I don`t have characteristics of Sagittarius - what characteristics do I have then? And what aspects to search for to find my ``true nature``?
You are doing exactly what I keep arguing against, zeroing in on Sun signs. You don't have to talk about specific natal charts to emphasize that in ANY chart this can happen, and I am only giving you an example:

Dec. 24th, 1985, about 7 AM, Greenwich England. Sag AC, Mercury, Venus, Saturn, Uranus all in Sag. Would you say that a person born then would not be very "Sag-like" because the Sun is in Capricorn?

Would a person with Sag Sun but nothing else in Sag and with an AC like Cancer, for example, be more or less "Sag"? That's *my* point.

I think this IS basic astrology, and the fact that countless people are making money writing about Sun signs, because it is something anyone with no knowledge of astrology can connect to, is just the popularization of something that is essentially simplistic, superficial and (in my opinion) just plain poor astrology. If I wanted to learn about that, or talk about that, I would not be participating in this forum. :)

Natasa, I'm sure you understand this. You are no beginner. And you have four planets in Sag, right? Sun/Jupiter conjunct in Sag. I would say that Sag *is* a rather strong factor in your chart.

But to make my point clear, I don't think you are more strongly Sag that someone who does not have Sun in Sag but who has Moon and AC in Sag plus one or more personal planets.

I'm not really making this point for you but rather for all the members who are novices who are going to think they "are their Sun sun". :)
What I am asking is is there anything basic that we can take as a fist step in astrology and stick to that or not?
Unfortunately, it *is* logical to start with Sun signs, but not for the reason most people think. The fact is that this is the only astrological data that we get "for free", since without a birthday we can't even check the other planets, and the Moon changes sign about one day out of three.

However, I really don't think *we* have to keep things so simplistic, because we certainly have more data, in most cases. ;)
iwonder said:
So well said, Gaer! I am not a Libra, but I have Mars+Pluto and Mercury+Uranus in Libra. Mars and Pluto also conjunct my Virgo Sun. I am not sure about #2, but 1,3 and 4 sure are a part of my dark side.
Just to make a point, you are only "not a Libra" if you talking about Sun sign. And if I say *I* am a Libra, based *only* on my Sun sign, do you really know more about me than if I say I am Virgo AC? :)

So with Mars conjunct Pluto in Libra, and Mercury conjunct Uranus in Libra, I think that Libra surely is a large factor for you. ;) Thus, when you say "I am not a Libra", I assume that you are stating that you are not Libra Sun. Which I know is true. But we could both argue that since both Pluto and Uranus were in Libra at the time you were born, and you have two planets so close to conjunct with both of them, you are both Libran in part and rather closely aligned with that energy, which dominated a bit during that time. If your Moon were in Libra too, I'd be inclined to think that you might be more Libran than I am. ;)

g
 
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archergirl

Well-known member
This is why I am putting in all this energy and effort to 'be the odd one out' and clear matters once and for all. I even think, at least hope, that this should help some novices in going beyond seeing themselves as simply their Sun signs.

A very Aquarius sort of thing to do.:)

I think I'm muddying the water here, so I apologise.

Would a person with Sag Sun but nothing else in Sag and with an AC like Cancer, for example, be more or less "Sag"? That's *my* point.
This is an excellent point; one I think I haven't been making very well.:p

Take my brother-in-law: Libra ASC, Sun/Moon in Cancer, stellium of four planets in Leo. He is very 'Leonine' in many ways; and lately he has mostly been expressing the shadow side of each of these signs, especially the stellium: arrogance, conceit, excessive bravado, demanding an 'audience' to witness his great sufferings.:rolleyes: He is also expressing the shadow side of Libra, which as some have mentioned, is manipulation, mostly of the passive-aggressive sort. Describing him simply as 'a Cancer' with the traits of a Cancerian doesn't eve begin to cut it as far as figuring him out.

But I digress (again). I'll go to work now to spare people my further ditherings.

AG:D
 

natasa812

Well-known member
gaer said:
But to make my point clear, I don't think you are more strongly Sag that someone who does not have Sun in Sag but who has Moon and AC in Sag plus one or more personal planets.

I'm not really making this point for you but rather for all the members who are novices who are going to think they "are their Sun sun". :)

Dear gaer, I understand what the point is in here...

But, in this case, we MUST say that Sun position and the Sun as a planet is not a strongest planet in a chart and obviously can be ``overlayed`` with a Stelium (for example) or with AC + Moon + one more planet in for example Pisces (if we are talking about Sagittarius)... So, if I had only Sun in Sag. and not Sun + Jupiter + Mercury + Neptune + MC but only Sun and all the rest in Pisces, I would be more Pisces than Sag.

So, do we have the strongest planet in a chart or should we talk about the STRONGEST POINT OF A CHART! A point that is showing where the FOCUS is and this point / focus is DETERMINING our true nature (by true nature I mean what we believe that a Sun sign is - since obviously it is not just a Sun placement...)...

And this point will tell us about our dark, bright, optimistic, pesimistic, moody, cheerful or whatever side...

And how we will ``count`` how strong this point is? I have Stelium but I also have 2 ``bouqets``, what about final dispositor then, what about the most aspected planet in a chart... I mean, how are we soppose to choose this point?

And if we do this, we will still have signs and horoscopes only that people will choose their sign according to this POINT and not according to the SUN POSITION.
And this means that I don`t know ``who is who`` any more and what sign(s) are people next to me I thought I new until yestrday...
The more I learn, the less I understand...

I FEEL LOST!
 
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tsquare

Well-known member
What can I say then - here I am, Sagittarius, but I don`t have characteristics of Sagittarius - what characteristics do I have then? And what aspects to search for to find my ``true nature``?

A suggestion.

Start with yourself first then, especially when you are lost.
IT sounds anti astrology, it's not.
Sit down and write down all your characteristics in the areas of life.
Like the houses, if you have learned them some.
you can jomp back and forth to glances at your chart.
If you spend some time doing this and to describe certain aspects of your past and who you were, and are at the moment you will learn allot.
Try to do it witht eh eliments for example.
fire, water, earth, air, and go through and list things that you think belong to each, ways you handle yourself.


For example, I a leo asc, and moon in leo, sun at last degree of cancer, merc cancer, venus cancer, allot of water in the chart...a libra stellium of saturn exaulted, mars in fall, pluto, all conj.

I notice specifics as I go allong and learn more.
I am in a constant state of not only learning, but unlearning things from before...going back over things...etc.
Sun signs are very helpfull becuase they are so strong...and I think they are very strong...but I also think that other planets reate very powerfull effects as well, take for example an aspect to the sun from uranus, you WILL see something there, and a modification of how the sun effects, or works in and throgh a persons life, and that sign. I am still ALWAYS learning, but I find it hellpfull to take my time, and if and when I am lost, or confused, I go back to the one person that knows, even if he lies at first, I go to my self.
I ask of things, I write things down and most importnat, I am brutally, brutally honest with myself, this is not, always easy but it's one of the only ways, and one of the best to discover your "true nature". For me, and it's different for everyone, astrology is not necisarit, in all, in total, the true self.
Many will disagree with me on that, maybe...
I see allot of different true selves in astrology.
Some say its the sun.
Some say it's the moon.(yes they do!)
Some say it's the asc.
Some say that the asc is a mask rather...and not really the true self but the face you put forward...
There are all these pieces at first, wish I knew more.

I can say currently what I thking, but I don't know how usefull it will be for you, cuase I change things all the time. Sometimes I hate posting for this reason, Tsquare said this, Tsquare said that, Tsquare chaged his mind and now says something else, and there is no way I can go back and change some stuff some times....there's to much to do for htat..
that is always why I thought of writing this as one big book was kind of impossible, because it makes it difficult at times to double back and correct oneself....and I change stuff....I think of the forum as a real time work environment, and new things get uncovred in coversation and exchange...while people are focusing on the same things....I still love the organization though of this place....back to point, gerr, haha, ok.

I see the asc as the face or the person, what the person is presenting as himself, but at the same time, the person may not do that all that much if there is not a planet there.
Take the sun there, natives are often very public or famous, if not there will be other influences, which ones? go study, read, find out about the planets, the signs, look at the natives cahrt,cause for me to sit here and list cookbook does no good, enough has been done and is out there, and it is awesome, for the most part, I still find it usefull and helpfull to even read of a person with one individual planet and sign in the house. It is amazing to me still jus thow much one aspect can say about the person, even if its only venus, or jupiter, whatever, it's ruller, house the plaent and sign are in, etc, ther is other stuff...and it all works in threon how the person will use these, er, planets, the chart, the whole chart as a whole, to repeat this on teh forum, quite uselessly, for the 7,millionth time, buut for necisssity and good reason, is what is importnat to look at.

but on the asc.
that is more of what you see of the person....and heir self, as maybe you and I know them.
It may not say mch about their true self, or even how that is constructed.
that may have more to do with the water signs and the seat of the cnciousness...
Aries is NOT KNOW it is fire, aries charges forward without sometimes facts, without sometimes what is to come next, and does not waste time to sit and think of the two sides of the issue, or the different viewpoints, it is the most basic and clear cut sign, and very naked in the way that it does represent itself. It is simple strait forward motion and sometimes opposes things dirrectly, with dissagreement.
Since aries is not know there is some courgae there, and gambling.
Gambling doesn;t always pay off.
Why?
Look to the rst of the chart.
sometimes it tells in my expereince, sometimes not. But the person wil be agressive wtih whatever is there, plaent, it's ruller and whatever sign.

This si a shadow libra thread.
Ok..
so shadow libra is basically the considered by whomever, colectively or individually, negative outcome or manifestation of the sign.
Can be allot of things.
In my experence the negative is sometimes a postive and the positive is sometimes a negative.
What may seem like a negative in some ways, in other ways is a positive.
this does not depend upon just shiting ones view but does slightly, it also depends upon teh outcome. genrally anything good for the native, good for the family good for whoever is conidered positive.
Since the chart inhereantly splits the person up so much into pie slices, I see the whole of a chart, even the good oft concidered aspects, like trines, as overexaguerations. a basic chart is in now way, even if all planets were in the sign of their rullers, perfection...an amazingperson...but erfection...duno...
A sign will have those sides though, and sides have allot to do with duality, and duality has a large part to do with peeoples thinking, peoples thinking has allot to do iwth their purposes, peoples purpsoes have allot to do with what they are busy being as people, or, in some cases, something else, or een more then ne person...
it's tricky, inherently tricky at times...sometimes not, at least for me sometimes it is....personally.

uhmm...
so looking at a person and asking the write questions of the person, or the self here....about purposes, how you go about achieving thing indiviudall,y what you are drawl to, then kind ofbeing ok enough with finding the truth, will alow you come up with some things which are your own observations of your nature, which if supposedly effected by the chart, and astrology, is also ao good tool back and into astrology, if used correctly.
Why would it not be a two way street if it was a map or ated like a mirror of not only now or then, but of things to posibly come.

So look to yourself, your life, you family, your work, your thoughts, additides, fears, confideneces, over confidences...and the signs, for each of their indiviudal atribues, both positive and negative, and also, how each sign could view the ther signs as positive or negative..
lest say there is a pure virgo sign out there, just using that now, lets say, pure sign virgo just to get a general idea. starting general.
How do you suppose the pure sign would view sagitarious, or gemini, or piscies. they are different mutable signs, thought explosions and dispersals, thought signs, that deal in particles, somewhat, and flows of course, even explostions are energy moving from a point to another.

the first house is cardinal, so doing, and an outward flowing doing...things that outflow effect their enviroment from the POV of cause over...sometiemes that can backfire into one sface, at others one can seek their life and future or even effect their environemnt...but the not know stuff comes from them ascting at a level of not know...they dont know the outcomes...they have not at times thought ti throught to find postive outcomes, or negative outcomes, they did no tdo much of that, but epople ca get lucky haha...There is of course more to it hten that and someone can explain it
but when I go to looka t a person I do the basics.
Look at the sun
The moon
and the asc
really I looke the most at he sun first, then the asc if I can get it with a birth time. Then the moon
then the personal plaents..and of course, personal plaents aspected to the outers, by sign, and house...


You are not just your sun, or your moon or your plaents, or your houses, or sign, or even your asc, the angle sor the stars...
if yuo were to even go by deffinition you wouldn't even be your chart.
But you would have a psyche that is represented by a chart.
and the Psyche plays so much a part in a persons operation.
I see a chart as a sort of a way of going about living a life, it is almost a game of sorts cause it is concious. Conciousness also implies not knowing things, cause thre is what is unconcious as well as unknown.
tell me how much calculating a persois,n interestied in teh unknown compared to a person who knows is.
a person who knows, will, actually not calcualte, may not even be as "smart" but they know.

I'm babbling...

You can still tell allot from teh sun.
But I want to make another sugestion.
Study and learning helps.
Just something worth noting.
Don't create your friends by putting the world of astrolgy on them.
Try to look at them with naked eyes first, or even durring, sepearte that, so you can see them too, rather then loking at your supposed and learned idea of them through astrology. The data is helpfull, it's one large VIA of peple, astrology is, but still, look at the people.
IF you look with astrology as an entierly mechancial thing, that is over people, but also, created soley in your mind, you may interact no longer with those people...very well.....you probably will, but it will be you inteacting with your pictures thoughts and ideas, and not really seeing th person, so it makes it hard to make observations when you are viewing your alrady viewed conciderations, decissions, on thoughts signs, plaents, people, etc, look at them first. Also, look at yourself.

Try to use not only your mind, buttry to go beyond doing that alone as well.
The mind is a machine I tell you.
The mind is a calculator, allot of the phyical worlk and machines and people use these systems to ooperate, but, the mind is what it is, it's a calculator, an analizer, it is analitical, and it diffrenetiates, identifies ojects as one another, it dissasociates....the mind is a good tool, but that is what it is.
It is a good gide to things, but it is also limited to the data that it does have...change one little tiny fragement of data, and EVERYTHING SHIFTS.

You are studying astrology, where as you learn, and unlearn, things become clear, like all things, or at least clearer...so try to stay loose enough to change as you learn. As you find out more, and find more truth, chaos will rise, and confusion will rise, and your stable datums will shake.
Stable datums = the poits you hav made to previously order confusions.
Ex: oh my friend is a sagitarious, he always bla bla bla...and all of a sudden you lrearn it was a whole different aspecta altgether that makes better sense ok, that has ti change then, the old datum in your mind...
whatever else is conected to that original datum will shake and you will se chaos again as your ordered world breaks apart.
Ordered world does not always mean correct world..I mean, how can the world be correct as long as there is perception.
People ahve some very incorect stable datums but they cling to these becuase they have ordered their confusions, and also, they have made sense of the world around them for them....you pull out a stable datum from under them, and poof...tehy can get very confusd with thoughts flying around their head as all the old confusions COME BACK AT THEM, uh oh, now they need some stabled datums fast cause all their answers have been destroyed..chaos, chaos, chaos...
well iif they find a better stable datum it sorts itself right away.
It is amusing sometimes, and on a lower level, hellatious, to watch some peoples stable datums pop durring a thread..
They will get realy confused and so will everyone else t times the minute truth starts to be uncountered, and depending upn the subject, wow, deeply held beliefs, try tht one with stable datums, religions, sciences, etc, families, whatever...you see arguments break free there cause the chaos causes people to get kicked in teh back, and by whom? who knows! and they will loof for something or someone that did it, sometimes it wasn;t even anyone in the room, haha, anyway, truth os weird lik that
get more specific, get more clear on a subject and the untruths will come up that were ordered an d missfiled...and they will need to be sorted and refled....or discarded. I havn't seen too much chaos here on this thread...
but I do see allot of really good questions that I do not have dirrect and strait answers too, I have my onw confusions there...haha...
Fun thread so far to watch develop.
Gotta go...really busy right now with something very important.
It's a mess again, and I'm operating sleep deprived...I have not read through this either, haha, well see how that goes...haha
 

natasa812

Well-known member
Dear tsquare,

it is 12:13 here in Greece, I`ll go to sleep now, I`ll read it tomorow, I looked at the introduction only since it is a very long post...I can not read it now...

Honestly, Sagittariously, bluntly... thank you for your reply but I will not read it now...

And I will probably not reply since this is the ``Libras`` thread (stay focused on target - this one is for me since I am often off topic and I talk too much)...

Sagittariously, targetly, I`ll read it tomorrow and I will not reply...

But thank you anyway...
 
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windwispers

Well-known member
vanity and insincerity...
have you ever seen those people who smile at you for no reason (as if to put on a pleasing persona) and then the second they turn away their smile vanishes.... those are librans
this is coming from an individual with a libran moon and ascendant.
i am guilty of this... and i hate it... it really gets under my own skin...

an evolved libra doesn't feel as if they have to go out of their way to make everyone comfortable, but rather has the ability to do so by just being themselves
 

natasa812

Well-known member
windwispers said:
vanity and insincerity...
have you ever seen those people who smile at you for no reason (as if to put on a pleasing persona) and then the second they turn away their smile vanishes.... those are librans

this is coming from an individual with a libran moon and ascendant.
i am guilty of this... and i hate it... it really gets under my own skin...

Dear Windwispers, once you learn something about yourself (at least it works for me), it is easy to change it. You confront it somehow, you see it clearly and then the next step of change comes easily...

If I understood corectlly this thread is about avoiding generalizing anything including Libra... And I don`t see anything wrong with smiling... - don`t feel guilty, keep smiling, try to mean it, if you don`t mean it act naturally, ask help or understanding from a friend
 

gaer

Well-known member
natasa812 said:
Dear gaer, I understand what the point is in here...

But, in this case, we MUST say that Sun position and the Sun as a planet is not a strongest planet in a chart and obviously can be ``overlayed`` with a Stelium (for example) or with AC + Moon + one more planet in for example Pisces (if we are talking about Sagittarius)... So, if I had only Sun in Sag. and not Sun + Jupiter + Mercury + Neptune + MC but only Sun and all the rest in Pisces, I would be more Pisces than Sag.
But since Sag dominates so much in your chart, aren't you rather safe in identifying with this sign? ;)
So, do we have the strongest planet in a chart or should we talk about the STRONGEST POINT OF A CHART! A point that is showing where the FOCUS is and this point / focus is DETERMINING our true nature (by true nature I mean what we believe that a Sun sign is - since obviously it is not just a Sun placement...)...
You will have to make up your own mind about what works best for you. Do you need a one-word label for people? Does it help to say X is Aries, Y is Cancer, Z is Libra?

We are all different. I tend to see an triangle, Sun, Moon, AC. That is by no means anything that will work all the time, but it is a start.

For you I would think (if my memory of your chart is correct): Aquarius AC, Sag Sun, Virgo Moon. I would think that Virgo Moon (again if I am remembering correctly) makes you a rather gentle Sag, and maybe you were much more shy when you were very young. Something like that.

But I would always listen to you. You might say, "Well, I'm not like that at all." And I would not insist that I am right, you are wrong, just because of a chart. I would probably figure that I had missed some really important things and make note of what those might be, for the future.
And this point will tell us about our dark, bright, optimistic, pesimistic, moody, cheerful or whatever side...

And how we will ``count`` how strong this point is? I have Stelium but I also have 2 ``bouqets``, what about final dispositor then, what about the most aspected planet in a chart... I mean, how are we soppose to choose this point?
Good question. If astrology was that easy, everyone would be very successful at it. But I would suggest that the more deeply you understand yourself and your own chart, the more clear some of these questions will become for you.

For example, I have to balance factors in my own chart. Three planets in Libra. Neptune is an outer. Is it important that it is in Libra? In my chart, close to the Sun/Moon midpoint, it has to be. Libra and 2nd House affairs are an important "theme" in my chart. Three planets in the 12th is another "theme". Then Mercury/Mars in Scorpio, third House, probably vital in explaining my need to communicate and how I communicate.

Then Uranus/Jupiter, not quite in opposition (wide orb) but angular, with Jupiter in Sag, so strong there. Then there are aspects. Layer upon layer upon layer.

The irony is that you can't learn astrology without approaching it in a somewhat simplistic manner, which is probably a large part of what a topic such as this is about, but you can't get really good at astrology without taking whole charts in, and to do that you have to leave behind simplistic rules or guidelines.

I think of looking at just planets, houses and aspects as a bit like learning notes, rhythm, basic instructions when learning music. We all have to do that. But to make music, to do something that is special, there is a whole universe beyond those basics.

Does that make any sense?

In the style of Tim: Balancing, ;)

g
 

natasa812

Well-known member
gaer said:
But since Sag dominates so much in your chart, aren't you rather safe in identifying with this sign? ;)

Yes, for me at least, this works...

gaer said:
If astrology was that easy, everyone would be very successful at it....

I know... I will probably never understand completely my own natal and that is why I don`t want to be a professional astrologer since I know that I am not talented in this...

BECAUSE...AS YOU POINTED AND THIS IS VERY TRUE:

gaer said:
I think of looking at just planets, houses and aspects as a bit like learning notes, rhythm, basic instructions when learning music. We all have to do that. But to make music, to do something that is special, there is a whole universe beyond those basics.
g

So, can we make a conclusion now that there is no dark side of Libra or a dark side of any sign but that there is more than just a Sun position (Sun sign) and if this is ture, it means that if you are going to tell me ``You are Sagittarius`` you will not tell this in case that I have only Sagittarian Sun but (for example) 5 planets in Pisces and 4 in Virgo...Then, even a professional astrologer will have to say: ``You are Sagittarius but you have more elements of Pisces and you have to take this under consideration...

Otherwise, we will have to leave a dark side of Libra and of any sign for Astro humor section since it is just a simple generalization...

Btw, I feel Sagittarian indeed, with my bright and dark and any side and I like it - and I can say that I just ``feel Sagittarian``, so, since you asked me, it ``feels`` Sagittarian from inside... :)

Best Sagittarian regards...
 
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Nexus7

Well-known member
I did not know so many points were being raised in is thread.

One thing I will say, is that I think this search for 'true self' can be unhealthy, even destructive, if pushed or imposed too much : we just end up with his phantom true self on high, unsullied by any oher factors, whilst everythong else gets to be relgated as 'false.' To my mind, that is the most pernicious effect of the sun-sign approach - it tends to evangelise abou who we are supposed to be 'really.' To say that we are supposed to be 'becoming' our Sun or anything else then rather implies that what we are now is not valid, or real in some ways. There are astrologers who even suggest that we actually have to kill off other parts of ourselves in order to become whom they decide we are supposed to be becoming. There is no way I would ever want to impose that on others myself now- it never did a lot for me when I was a lot younger and more gullible and vulnerable than I am now, and I also had occasion to deal with people who came to me who had been spooked by this.

An Aries sun sign overlaid with Cancer and Taurus probably is more the latter planets most of the time, if there is not much fire elsewhere in the chart, though the Aries may well surface where this person ends up fighting for their turf or for someting that really matters to them, or taking on a position that requires a solar role e.g. chairing a meeting. Much there might depend on the Saturn, of course.

As for the 'shadow' side of Libra: as far as the sign in general goes, then I would suggest that it can be underestimated: the desire to impose the will of others can be much stronger than it may seem, if we are seduced too much by the charm he sign may project. I think it can be quite ruthless in going for what it wants. Some of the best generals are said to be Libra - though I may have made that point before.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Re: Link to the Thread: The Sun vs the Moon

As the growing discussion about the importance of the Sun vs that of the Moon needed a new thread, before this particular one completely changed its track; I have moved the relevant posts to a new one called: The Sun vs the Moon on the 'Natal Astro' forum.

:)AQ7
 

gaer

Well-known member
Nexus7 said:
As for the 'shadow' side of Libra: as far as the sign in general goes, then I would suggest that it can be underestimated: the desire to impose the will of others can be much stronger than it may seem, if we are seduced too much by the charm he sign may project. I think it can be quite ruthless in going for what it wants. Some of the best generals are said to be Libra - though I may have made that point before.
I chose the part of your post that is definitely part of the "shadow side of Libra".

One general who might support your point is Eisenhower, and he is important because he was also a two-term US president.

Getting birth times for such famous people is always a problem. I found two supposedly correct birth times for Eisenhower, 12 hours apart. :(
 

m0ney*p0wer*re$pect

Well-known member
Well im a Libra, libra sc. and libra mars

Really, all i want to do is find me and my expression of self and stay true to that. I got a lot of inner turmoil and obviously i havent resolved all of them, thats why i decided to be proactive and take responsibility for my actions and words

thats an issue b/c i am quick to anger and notice that im very impulsive, but i try to settle down and still let others know whats on my mind. But ppl have a way of trying to make u look like an idiot

Often i put myslef in positions on impulsive thoughts and then let everything drop all together when it gets hard or seems lost. But i need to make adjustments and work harder.


My main issue is reality, the substance, resullts. I think too much and do too little and i hate it and im tring to change it, but im very impatient on the results nad often this makes me give up. I get distracted easily and knocked off track by relationships

so im not doing anymore relationships b/c i want to resolve all my fears, conflicts, hates and transform them b/c they are parts of myself that will never be denied, you cant just deny who you are.

But i want to accept life as it is, i came on here time and time again to find whatever scorpio influence i could b/c i hated being a libra. but now i know i hate that i denied me and my needs and surpressed my anger


Now, i seek seclusion and a fresh start b/c its pointless to blow up at those in my life now about something in the past. I will just shed them and my old ways and come to grips with the harsh reality of me, my desires, my actions


My mars is in Libra, and in the 12th house. I was raised with my two female cousins, my grnadma and grandpa, aunt, sister, and mother, my grnadpa died when i was 10 and my uncle moved out for college when i was 4. So all my life, my view on masculine behavior was sinsiter, i believed that you should never force a woman to do anything, i **** near let women lead in relationships and feared taking chances. Well b/c i was raised around women i was taught to surpress my masculine behavior. Now im coming to terms with it and feel that its natural to be assertive and if she doesnt like me coming on to her then maybe she wont wear that miniskirt next time:devil: lol

But its rough b/c i was forced to see a womans prosepctive on masculine behavior, and now, at 22, smh, im learning that i hate the word no, hate failing, and love independence. I think it has alot to do with your enviroment as a libra, b/c if he is raised somewhere where he is made to be the peacemaker or where agrresion and assertive type behavior isshunned, then he will be manipulative

now, im at a bttlefield, with myself from all realms. I know who i am. Now im trying to shed old beiefs of fear and running and develop myself to have immense personal power. So i think its best for me to leave relationships alone for a while(not sex tho)until i can figure out why i hate taking responsiblilty for my self expression and why it only surfaces when im despreate. Once i can develop who i sm then i can be passionate and assertive while still caring about my girlfriends needs and when i get in turmoil i wont have to be selfish and manipulative, i can be honest and open and willful while still only looking to her for love, not for will power
 
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