The Shadow Side of Libra

iwonder

Well-known member
gaer said:
These are things I see in myself, as traits I want to avoid "feeding" at all cost:

1) In the name of fairness, starting a fight.
2) In the name of a cause or a principle, trampling a human being.
3) To avoid unpleasantness, avoid a confrontation *now* when doing so is going to make a much bigger problem in the future. (This is where looking to the opposite sign, Aries, is useful. I can learn from what I admire but that does not come naturally to me.)
4) In the name of peace, trying to please everyone, in a way that ends up pleasing no one and ruins my own balance. :)

So well said, Gaer! I am not a Libra, but I have Mars+Pluto and Mercury+Uranus in Libra. Mars and Pluto also conjunct my Virgo Sun. I am not sure about #2, but 1,3 and 4 sure are a part of my dark side.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
But I think 'shadow sides' maybe arise more obviously from other places in the chart besides simply one's Sun Sign and its shadow. I would say my 'dark side' is more likely manifested in Pluto square my Sun (orb 1 degree), so, dark power-hunger, troubles with authority and a cunning, ruthless streak. Ain't nuthin' to do with being a Sadge.
So we are talking about "shadow sides" of a *native*. Then certainly there is more to it then just the Sun or the Moon placement. However, there are times when we talk about mere *zodiac signs* (just like we do about planets) and not the sign's natives, in which case, no aspects are involved. Just like we associate the sign of Aquarius with the shadow side of rebellion or unconventionality. Taking the e.g. however of two Aquarian natives, both of which would have a basic streak of the aforementioned Aquarius traits, but with the first Aquarian native's Sun, say in an aspect to Saturn, would make him more conservative, whilst another Aquarian's Sun aspected by Jupiter might make him a full-blown unconventional person. Then there will be many other aspects in both their charts further fine-tuning their personality. This is why no two Aquarian natives would ever express either the bright or the shadow sides of Aquarius equally. I thus hope people will note the difference between talking about mere zodiac signs on the one hand and then, taking it a step further, and talking about the sign's natives with many aspects and facets on the other.:)

@Chemirical and Katydid, the rough times those Librans and that Aquarian gave you guys must have had to do with some aspects and placements in their 'natal charts' clashing with yours. A synastry would give a clearer picture in such a case.

:)AQ7
 
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archergirl

Well-known member
Maybe I lack imagination or perception or something; I can't seem to grasp what this 'dark side' of any Sun Sign is (apart from the stereotypical, "Sagittarians are blunt and uncouth", "Geminis are superficial,", "Leos are egomaniacs"), perhaps because I normally view people from a holistic POV rather than as a blunt painting described only by one particular personality characteristic.

I have known many many Geminis, for example (which, as a dual sign, means I have known twice as many as I think:p ) but apart from a sort of 'Gemini-ness' (they all love talking and examining and exploring), I can't seem to ascertain just what, exactly, the 'dark' aspect of this would be, since they are all completely different people and their darknesses are all very different. One of the shadow sides of Gemini is supposed to be a superficiality of thinking...but none of the Geminis I have known have been superficial thinkers.

Maybe I'm thinking too much about it and should stick to the surface of things. :D Or maybe there is actually more to it than simply the dark side of one sign placement.

AG:)
 
I only learned about the less shining qualities of a sign through Liz Greene's "Astrology for Lovers". A holistic point of view I think would include the less attractive qualities along with the all the nice descriptions of the signs, I do think they are very useful descriptions and do help when understanding a sign.

Gemini's shadow side as listed in the book are:
  • Irresponsible child syndrome
  • The Plotter
  • Chronic evasiveness
  • Chronic Lying
  • Sponges off others
  • Cunning
It doesn't just relate to Sun signs, it can be a stellium of planets in Gemini. Of course I wouldn't go out and describe these qualities to a Gemini, as not every Gemini is a full blown liar, they could be very gifted at communication and often this is what makes them a good liar. But for other Gemini's they can great writers, speakers etc. You can't tell from a birth chart how it will be expressed.

I have known a Gemini who was a taxi driver :p , a liar, a cheat, and he would constantly evade his girlfriend, she did have difficulty pinning him down emotionally. I never trusted him, as he was a gossip behind other people's back. Most typically his sign, he was my friends boyfriend, he really did present the worst side of Gemini. I have also seen a woman with this placement who studies journalism, and writing, she is a teacher at university. Communication is the key.

Angelina Jolie is a Gemini but she often looks more Scorpion to me, I think in part her fiery side comes through the Moon in Aries. I read a quote of hers which described her Gemini qualities:

"If I didn't have my films as an outlet for all the different sides of me, I would probably be locked up." - Angelina Jolie

Since the topic is on Libra:

Shadow qualities quickly listed from astrology for lovers:
  • Craves love and approval, once the other person falls for them, they reject them and they become just another notch on the bedpost. (ouch that was a harsh one :D )
  • Mirror, Mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all. To Libra everybody else is a mirror.
  • Charming, flirtatious, with the gift for flattery, make you believe your the only one.
  • Displays real genius in taking one step forward and another step backward.
  • If you display too much enthusiasm, the Librian will show evasiveness and chilliness. It's called playing hard to get.
  • No real feeling behind their words.
  • Plays one person off another.
  • Gifts in relating can be used manipulatively.
  • The Librian shadow isn't after all, Bad, False and Ugly. But it can be a little too Good, true and beautiful for it's own good.
It's one of her best books as you do get a full rounded view of each sign, all the wonderful qualities and the side we try to hide from others.
 
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Aww don't take it to heart, you wanna read my shadow traits for Pisces,they are just as bad. It's only a guideline you will meet the nicest of Librians and others who are manipulative, or need constant approval. I can relate somewhat to Libra having many planets in the 7th house, I was more of people pleaser, relationships have been a major drive for me, I needed the security (Moon in 7th). When I was nervous I used to smile too much, and one girl pointed it out to me. I never realized how I was coming across. One girl said I was "too nice". How can you be too nice, I guess it's annoying to smile a lot and be pleasant when people want hear about your "real feelings", or opinions in a straightforward manner, and not just reflect what I thought would please others. I guess I was non identity in many ways . I can relate to Libra values.
 

Chimerical

Active member
katydid said:
What do you have in Libra, if anything?
Or do you have a lot of other cardinal placements, that square them?

I used to have 'problems' with Aquarians not liking me when I was younger.
I finally realized that my exact T-square to Pluto conjunct the south node in Leo in the 4th MIIGHT POSSIBLY rub them the wrong way. This one aquarian girl who dated my older brother, was SURE that I was judging her, but the truth was I could have cared less about her.

So MAYBE there is something in your chart sending the Librans mixed signals somehow?:eek:
I have pluto in libra ..that's it:confused:
here is my chart
 

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katydid

Staff member
Chimerical said:
I have pluto in libra ..that's it:confused:
here is my chart


You have Libra on the cusp of your 12th, hidden enemies, and Uranus stands right at the entrance .
[You Pluto in Libra as well, but so does everyone your age.]

I think the culprit may be your Mars/Chiron in Aries. There is a hefty t-square between your Mars/chiron, Uranus opposition and the apex to Mercury in cancer. A Libra would be thrown into the mix, and be opposed by the Mars/chiron in Aries.

You may think that Librans dislike you instantly for no reason, but they may have picked up on the aggressive energy of the ARIES Mars , and been put off. The apex to Mercury in Cancer may force you into feeling defensive around others, and you may shut down emotionally at times because of this feeling of being 'attacked' by others unfairly.
 

Chimerical

Active member
katydid said:
You have Libra on the cusp of your 12th, hidden enemies, and Uranus stands right at the entrance .
[You Pluto in Libra as well, but so does everyone your age.]

I think the culprit may be your Mars/Chiron in Aries. There is a hefty t-square between your Mars/chiron, Uranus opposition and the apex to Mercury in cancer. A Libra would be thrown into the mix, and be opposed by the Mars/chiron in Aries.

You may think that Librans dislike you instantly for no reason, but they may have picked up on the aggressive energy of the ARIES Mars , and been put off. The apex to Mercury in Cancer may force you into feeling defensive around others, and you may shut down emotionally at times because of this feeling of being 'attacked' by others unfairly.
wow..you hit the nail on the head. I hadn't thought of the aries /mars/chiron issue, which is really proving to be the bane of my existence. It seems whatever problem I may have always points to mars in aries and chiron.
Mercury in cancer is another fave..yeah my chart sux lol
Thank you though for the insight..I have myself under tight reigns :)
 

MidnightxPoison

Well-known member
MTTY05 said:
Just off the top of my head I can think of two Libra Sun's. One was very nice, charming, friendly, helpful, and funny. She was the sterotypical "can't make up my mind, so you do it for me" kind of Libra. With her it was always "What do you want to eat today?" or "Where do you want to go today?". It was never about what she wanted, it was always about what someone else wanted, and she'd always happily just do what someone else wanted to do, just to be able to tag along with them. This may be because she really cared about what other people wanted, or it could be because she couldn't make up her own mind so she'd just do what other people did. I think it was a mix of both. She was great though, a top-shelf type of person.

Yup. It's a mix of both. I'm the same, lol. It can be very frustrating.

The other Libra I can think of was flirtacious almost to a fault. She had Sun, Moon, Mercury, and Venus in Libra. She liked every other guy she saw, and she thought every guy liked her. Constantly hitting on guys, and kind of promiscuous. I remember one of the dudes she thought liked her came up to her and told her that he didn't like her at all and to bug off, then later on she was saying "oh, he likes me!" She was a bit delusional, but a nice person. Though some people thought she was a pain in the rear end.
I like Libras though, guess it's Libra Moon influence.

LOL @ "she was a bit delusional, but a nice person". Oddly, that sounds like my mum.. but she's Taurus. o_O
 

MidnightxPoison

Well-known member
stardust7 said:
The Libra Sun I was friends with for a while was the consummate social butterfly and a big flirt... she was also quite promiscuous! Strange- the shadow side of her friendliness and ability to make friends was that she never stuck with one for too long, and never got close to anyone. Once any "drama" appeared in the relationship (i.e., the other person had problems) she would take off. There's almost a "people-Suzy-has-dumped" club going on! :eek:

That sounds like me as well....

I've wondered why I'm this way. This kind of behaviour always reminded me of a Gemini but now I realize Libras can be so too.

I never get stuck with certain people with long and I don't get too close either. I guess it's self-defense in a way, sort of trying to avoid any conflicts or dramas that might arise.
But speaking from personal experience (since I'm Libra AC) it's more likely just the fact that I get bored easily and need a lot of privacy and time alone.. as simple as that.
 

MidnightxPoison

Well-known member
Radu said:
My own perception of the dark side of Librans:
  • They are unreliable as you never know whether what they say is what actually think. They pretend to listen (air sign), and they stay there humming in agreement, while they will actually still do the thing they want (cardinal sign).
  • They have problems with time, as Saturn rules Libra by exaltation, their internal clock differs widely of that of others: they can spend hours talking non-sense and still pretend they are in a hurry!
  • They want to be sociable and help everybody, without considering whether the other person actually needs or wants their help, it doesn't actually matter to them.
Just avoid them when you see them. I have 5 Libra planets, so I know. :rolleyes:

Haha, this is sooo true! I admit that I pretend to listen a lot (and people actually believe it!) while in fact I am only humming along and agreeing, nodding etc and actually daydreaming/with my head in the clouds. I can't help it though, I get bored easily, especially if the conversation is about something that doesn't interest me.

And I have a HUGE problem with time. I'm ALMOST always late everywhere... and my friends hate it!

One thing that I really hate is confrontation. It just makes me feel uncomfortable because I just want peace. I don't want any conflicts or fights, they get me out of balance.
 
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I feel like Caesar stabbed by brutus


that is exactly how I feel regarding a Libra sun male I know, he had leo rising, and I know now that he was anything but what I thought. He was in touch with people he should not have been, he was having sex with very young women, but I put that down to his own inadequacies...he was deceitful, but always charming, he too hated confrontation and will happily disappear rather than face the music, even when he starts the confrontation by his deceitful behaviour. He caused me immense heartache, I will never forgive him for this, and being a scorpio, that is always going to be the case. I could no sooner sit and speak to him calmly than fly to the moon because I trusted him and the ultimate betrayal was searingly painful.

Keep away from them, they are a waste of space.:mad:
 

MidnightxPoison

Well-known member
I think one MAJOR shadow side of Libra is that they can be extremely moody when they are unbalanced.

My grandfather is a Libra and boy is he moody! O_O
 

Chimerical

Active member
sparklyskies said:
I feel like Caesar stabbed by brutus


that is exactly how I feel regarding a Libra sun male I know, he had leo rising, and I know now that he was anything but what I thought. He was in touch with people he should not have been, he was having sex with very young women, but I put that down to his own inadequacies...he was deceitful, but always charming, he too hated confrontation and will happily disappear rather than face the music, even when he starts the confrontation by his deceitful behaviour. He caused me immense heartache, I will never forgive him for this, and being a scorpio, that is always going to be the case. I could no sooner sit and speak to him calmly than fly to the moon because I trusted him and the ultimate betrayal was searingly painful.

Keep away from them, they are a waste of space.:mad:
Sparklyskies-
sorry to hear of your trouble, it's clear you were really hurt . I have had bad run-ins with libras too..(just females) Who knows though, his libra sun sign could have been his only redeeming quality..what I mean is- he more than likely had many indicators in his chart - for deceit - sexual deviancy..poor attitudes towards women..intimacy issues and so on
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
The difference, for me at least, is that most seem to speak about individuals/people/natives with automatic association at the mere mention of a zodiac sign, whilst I keep harping about *zodiac signs* and not its individuals. To me, an individual has various constituents in his chart, starting from placements of all those personal planets in *various* signs (often) to that network of aspects, etc. Anyway, I am not going to continue with this as I seem to be repeating myself without being able to get the real message across that I want to. Maybe I am too dumb or just have an inadequate and unintelligible way of expressing myself.:D

However, whether one calls them 'stereotypes' or 'archetypes' or whatever types, I simply call the 'shadow' or 'bright sides' as simple definition types of zodiac signs, just like defining planets or anything for that matter. Every thing in this world has a definition as well as advantages and disadvantages, goods and bads. One thing I wonder is why questions/problems that arise, are mostly (if not only) associated with 'shadow' sides. What amazes me is that why defining Uranus as imparting a streak of eccentricity is not a quarter as bad as using that same trait when defining the *sign* of Aquarius. Why do we automatically associate the sign to the native, who is much more than a couple of placements in a sign? Anyway, I really feel, I am going round and round in circles, and give up.

Cheers,
:)AQ7
 

archergirl

Well-known member
I agree with you, AQ7, but from the other side (the shadow side?) of the spectrum. I have difficulty separating individuals into such disparate but singular components as 'sun sign and shadow', since this is never the case. As you say, we are all made of all signs, in different places, with different manifestations. That's why I feel that this sort of discussion on 'shadow side of X sign' is an exercise in futility. I mean, I have Libra on the 9th house and Uranus in Libra in the 8th. I don't think I could describe either the house or the planet in Libra or the shadow sides of either, as being separate from the rest of my chart, i.e. Jupiter in my 9th and Uranus square Mercury, or Uranus' dispositor in the 11th, for example. I think it's a bit too simplistic to just say, "Libras are moody," or "Libras are needy". This is newspaper column astrology, since so much else is involved in the manifestation of things like 'moodiness' (Mars/Mercury aspects? Moon aspects?) and 'neediness' (poor Saturn placement?).

AG:)
 

katydid

Staff member
aquarius7000 said:
However, whether one calls them 'stereotypes' or 'archetypes' or whatever types, I simply call the 'shadow' or 'bright sides' as simple definition types of zodiac signs, just like defining planets or anything for that matter. Every thing in this world has a definition as well as advantages and disadvantages, goods and bads. One thing I wonder is why questions/problems that arise, are mostly (if not only) associated with 'shadow' sides. What amazes me is that why defining Uranus as imparting a streak of eccentricity is not a quarter as bad as using that same trait when defining the *sign* of Aquarius. Why do we automatically associate the sign to the native, who is much more than a couple of placements in a sign? Anyway, I really feel, I am going round and round in circles, and give up.

Cheers,
:)AQ7

I think we are automatically tuned to being 'our sun sign' from childhood. Even people who 'do not believe' know what their sun sign is. So , I have to admit, I bristle when Scorpios are described in their usual fashion, as Scorpios seem to BE the shadow side, but it doesn't bother me as much when Pluto is . I think we can feel somewhat separate from the planets themselves more easily. :eek:
I do understand the hurt that comes from being judged by our 'unfortunate' chart components however. AND I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO WORK HARD NOT TO MAKE ABSOLUTE JUDGEMENTS UNFAIRLY. :cool:
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Well, AG, I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree here then, as to me defining a sign - to which clearly both shadow and bright sides belong - is like defining anything else. It is like defining a planet. Why can't we define the *sign* of Aquarius when we can spell out the most shadowy/negative traits of Uranus or Saturn. To me this is complicating something quite simple and logical (at least to my silly mind), and nothing to do with "newspaper column Astrology". It seems that perhaps too simplistically we might be associating the sign on a too personal level and therefore equating the sign to the individual. Maybe I am wrong.

The difference for me has been that you again talk about *natives* when you say:
I think it's a bit too simplistic to just say, "Libras are moody," or "Libras are needy".
you are talking whole *individuals*/*people*, whilst I wouldn't dare to talk about Libras or Libran people, but only the zodiac entity/component of Libra. Talking zodiac Libra to my simplistic mind is like talking planet Venus. A Libran or a Libra solar/lunar individual though still has 7 or 8 other planets + 11 other signs + aspects and connections between all these - quite complex and nothing to do with one sign. I am not talking natives or people, but rather planets and their signs. There is no question about "separating individuals into such disparate but singular components", as we are not talking individuals. We are on 'ground level' and talking a mere sign - one single component. We will have to talk many components and their interconnection/placements, etc, etc, etc, before we get to the *individual* level. However, allow me to say that simply because I am talking about the fundaments/basic components such as signs and planets, and not about more complex stuff such as *people*, it is nowehere near practising simplistic or tabloid Astrology.

I have a problem that some have a problem with not being able to discuss *zodiac signs* just as freely (esp the shadow sides) as planets or houses; and an even bigger problem that the sign of Aquarius (a mere zodiac) is too simply equated to an Aquarian person/solar or lunar native (a very complex/intricate entity). It's beyond me, but then, putting it 'simplistically', I seem to be holding out the trait of dancing out of line/being the odd one out.....perhaps the shadow side of the Aquarius zodiac.

;)AQ7
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
I think we are automatically tuned to being 'our sun sign' from childhood.
Well, this then would be real *sun sign tabloid Astrology*. You seem to have hit the nail quite on the head. Thanks for trying to help out, Katy.
I am trying to show exactly that difference - seeing an individual as *much* more than just his 'sun sign'..no equation there at all....no wonder most are having a big problem with trying to even merely talk about the 'shadows' of a 'Sun' *sign*. They seem to think we are criticising their entire personality/their being. If individuals/their complete being could be so easily be equated to their Sun signs (except yes, calling them after their Sun signs), why then should we even bother to study other placements, etc in Natal Astrology. Sun-sign Astrology would then do just as well for some.

:sunny:AQ7
 
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natasa812

Well-known member
Dear Aquarius7000,

I do agree, but if there is no ``base`` or ``basic rules`` for each sign, then how we can even start learning astrology. There must be some general rules used as basic informations.... Otherwise, we will not need any more Sun sign and AC as basic element of a chart...

Like in every science, first you learn the ``alphabet`` and 2+2 = 4 and then you go to an advanced level.

At least I started learning astrology in this way - signs first, planets after, aspects after planets and so on...

And if there is no base in ``Sun sign characteristics`` then we have to erase every basic astrology book and magazine...

If I have Sagittarius in front of me, or a Gemini, generaly speaking I know what I can expect - generaly. Of course that there is more but if we don`t know those ``basic characteristics`` because there are no any, then the whole astrology research done until now is useless.
What can I say then - here I am, Sagittarius, but I don`t have characteristics of Sagittarius - what characteristics do I have then? And what aspects to search for to find my ``true nature``?

What I am asking is is there anything basic that we can take as a fist step in astrology and stick to that or not?
 
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