The malefics and having children

[holly]

Thanks for providing a good discussion on this topic everyone. It's very interesting to see some real-life examples of what my intuition suspected.

Anyway, I have another question I have been considering. Is there much difference in the Fifth House of a man's chart, and the Fifth House in a woman's? Would the man's fifth house still signify child birth and child rearing, or is that meaning eliminated?

 

[BobZemco]

Anyway, I have another question I have been considering. Is there much difference in the Fifth House of a man's chart, and the Fifth House in a woman's? Would the man's fifth house still signify child birth and child rearing, or is that meaning eliminated?

The 5th is about children and attitudes toward children. To learn about child-rearing, look to the 4th.

I was taught to look at the ruler of the 5th, not the planets in the 5th as they would only describe your attitude toward children. Your first child is the 5th House and to learn about them, you move the 5th to the Ascendant and read it like a natal chart. I usually do that printing the chart then renumbering the houses starting with the 5th as the Ascendant. Your 2nd child is the 7th, and you do the same thing.

Most people ignore the 11th House, which is adopted children and step-children. The same rules apply. You move the 11th to the Ascendant and read the chart. The 2nd adopted child or next youngest step-child is the 11th from from the 11th (the 9th) so you put that on the Ascendant and read it.

I have limited evidence that if the 5th and 11th House rulers are conjunct or in trine, there's a greater chance of having adopted or step-children.

Also look at the relationship between the 7th and the 5th House rulers and the 9th and 5th House rulers (the 9th for the second spouse) or the 11th and 5th House rulers (the 11th for the 3rd spouse) for step-children/adopted children.

 

[holly]

Why do you consider the 4th to be about child-rearing? If the 4th describes our home life, our parents and our roots, can it also describe the way we raise our children?

So planets in the fifth tell of our attitude towards children. The ruling planet of the fifth will tell us more about our own children, as well as using derived (is that the word?) houses and using the fifth as the ASC.

A couple of questions about that....

What information can you gain from using the chart like that? Obviously you don't mean the turned chart is literally the child's chart, because that doesn't work. So does the turned chart, where the mother's 5th house becomes the Asc of the child, only descirbe the mother's attitude and perception towards her child?

 

[BobZemco]

Why do you consider the 4th to be about child-rearing? If the 4th describes our home life, our parents and our roots, can it also describe the way we raise our children?

Yes. Having Uranus in the 4th is not good. Chaos, strife, violence if aspected hard with Mars, often lots of moving from one home (or usually one lover) to another (more common for women than men because of the financial situation). Sometimes arguments or violence between the parents. Saturn often denotes strict authority and discipline. Neptune too much idealism, sometimes alcohol abuse. Pluto also authority issues or lots of "family secrets."

So planets in the fifth tell of our attitude towards children.

Do you like them. Are you one of those who likes children, as long as they're someone elses. Do you idealize them, dote on them, or whatever.

The ruling planet of the fifth will tell us more about our own children, as well as using derived (is that the word?) houses and using the fifth as the ASC.

Houses within houses, derived houses, it's all the same thing. Planets in Houses by Pelletier uses derivative house relationships with derivative house meanings (I bought a used copy for $4 on the internet).

What information can you gain from using the chart like that? Obviously you don't mean the turned chart is literally the child's chart, because that doesn't work.

No, it isn't the child's chart, but that doesn't mean it isn't accurate. In astrology, there's more than one way to skin a cat. This planet in this sign in this house indicates leadership qualities. Is that the only combination? No. Other planets in other signs in other houses can indicate leadership qualities, just as planets in aspect in certain signs/houses can indicate leadership qualities.

Does Uranus in the 1st House trine Neptune in the 4th mean you'll drown to death? Maybe. But then so might Pluto in a water sign in the 4th.

You can take several different roads and all of them will lead you to the same fork in the road.

So does the turned chart, where the mother's 5th house becomes the Asc of the child, only descirbe the mother's attitude and perception towards her child?

No, it describes the child, but perhaps not in full detail. Maybe you have Neptune in the 5th and turn the chart so now Neptune's in the 1st. You say, oh, my child will have charisma. Then the child is born and you're disappointed because Neptune is elsewhere. But then you see other indicators in the child's chart that show charisma. Venus in the 10th and/or Venus conjunct Jupiter and/or Sun trine Uranus etc etc.

Maybe Jupiter is in the 8th, but when the child's born it isn't. Then you see the child's natal chart has Jupiter in Pisces in the 4th sextiling the ruler of the 8th in the 2nd or Jupiter conjunct Ascendant sextiling the ruler of the 8th in the 10th

All three of those placements basically mean the exact same thing (long life, peaceful death, and some positive or beneficial relationship involving other people's finances or resources), there's just some subtle differences as to how exactly it plays out.

Can you progress a turned chart? I don't know, never tried it. I suppose n theory you could, but I don't think it would as valuable as using the real natal chart.

 

[holly]

Thanks Bob for teaching me something new today. It's been a pleasure discussing things with you. I'm off to start turning some charts...

 

[leogirl]

hi bob,

i just want to tell you when i read your last reply to me i got tears in my eyes. even though my little girl is on the very mild end of the spectrum as parents we always worry and i was happy to see you say when i should be saving for a wedding for.

also, i thought i'd post her chart for anyone who might be interested in a chart for a person with autism/aspergers as i've seen some interest here.

have a great day,
leogirl

 

[Matthew The Astrologer]

I'm an astrologer and my son has Asperger's. Let's see that chart...

 

[Astrodawn]

I'd find it hard to believe that having malefics alone in the 5th would be an indicator of problems, especially if they were dignified or exalted. If they were in fall or detriment, or retrograde perhaps.

I suspect it's more than that, maybe a malefic in hard aspect with the House Ruler. Refining the criteria might give a better answer. It's certainly an interesting theory.

My son has saturn in aries in the 5th with a wide (7 degree) opposition with the house ruler mars in the 11th. He also has saturn square sun 8H (4 degrees) he is still only 11 years old but this aspect has been apparent to me since he was a baby. He struggles to be 'silly' and childllike. He views other children as being either attention seeking, thugs or stupid and struggles making new friends. Children as we all know can be somewhat cruel when playing with each other, but the smallest comment to my son and he dwells on it personally for days. Most people think hes a bit strange (in a nice way)
He also has pluto contunct moon (3 degrees).
He seems unhappy and solitary to me although he claims he is not unhappy.

Being his mother I keep focusing on the pluto/moon conjunction and blame my self for the way he is.

Can anyone see if he will be happier as he gets older?

 

[leogirl]

hi matthew,

i already posted the chart. it's on page one of the thread. please share anything that jumps out at you. it's called second child. thanks!

leogirl

 

[Claire19]

Does anyone have any experience with charts that have the malefics in the 5th House, regarding stories of child birth and raising children?

I am wondering if several things occur....

- The malefics in the fifth house suggest that pregnancy and giving birth could be life-threatening for the native.

- Having a child would bring hardship upon the native: either the baby would be born with birth defects and require an enormous commitment of care, or in some other way, raising a child would bring misfortune to the parents.

- People with Mars, Saturn or even Pluto in the fifth should NOT have children unless they are willing to risk their life through a bad pregnancy and birth, or take on the challenge of raising a difficult child.

In your experience, are any of these hypothesis true?

As always depends on the aspects these planets are making elsewhere.
Saturn in 5th can mean only one child that you feel very responsible for, educate and give moral values to. It can mean no children as well because of the burden that someone may feel having a child is. It can be a karmic effect that allows for growth. It can indicate a Capricorn type child who will tend to parent you when young but grows youthful as it ages.

Pluto in 5th can mean death during childbirth or death of a child yes. It can also mean that the experience of having a child is totally transforming and allows for spiritual growth. It can mean a secret child being born also. It can indicate a Scorpion type child.

Mars is 5th can mean simply a male child, one who is asssertive, impulsive, accident prone or brave and strong. It can mean the death of a child also. Scar or mark to the head during childbirth. An Aries child.

Uranus in 5th can mean miscarriage, child out of wedlock, adopted or other unusual methods. It can mean a surprise or shock pregnancy or one where science and technology plays a big part such as IVF. An Aquarian type child.

We must, must always look at the aspects made and we can never take anything out of context.

 

[Claire19]

It is my belief that the child chooses the conditions of incarnation, the parents etc. It is pointless to blame yourself for a child's aspects unless you have deliberately done something to harm that child. We all have karma to deal with and a Saturnian child can be rather serious and humourless and have difficulty with playing like a child, this is true. He may benefit from doing a little farming, growing things and having contact with the Earth. He may also benefit from collecting rocks, using tools etc.

I have Saturn in Leo in the 5th and could never play as other children do and was never happy as a child. I have chosen not to have children either. My parents both have Saturn in Leo and they found children a burden and a great responsibility and didnt show much joy in having us around. Rather we were a nuisance and they felt it was a major sacrifice.

Conversely it can mean having children once we are mature enough and can cope with the responsibility and having only one or two. THe Saturn REturn is a popular time for children and I know many who had a child around 28 or 29 years. For both my Saturn in Leo nephews they waited until they were fully mature and over 30 before deciding on a child. They now have a stable home environment and career and can afford to educate their children and give them the opportunities of life.

Once again all depends on the aspect and the evolution of the particular persons involved.

Good luck.

 

[BobZemco]

I have Saturn in Leo in the 5th and could never play as other children do and was never happy as a child. I have chosen not to have children either. My parents both have Saturn in Leo and they found children a burden and a great responsibility and didnt show much joy in having us around. Rather we were a nuisance and they felt it was a major sacrifice.

I know the kind. My family was dirt poor, but by the time I was 12, I had been on vacation to Canada twice, Florida twice, and camping and boating everywhere in the Midwest. A friend's parents, for as wealthy as they were, he never and his brother never got to go anywhere. His parents would take off at Christmas and go to Hawaii, or the UK, or France, or somehwere exotic and leave him and his brother at home with the grandparents. His parents were really selfish.

For both my Saturn in Leo nephews they waited until they were fully mature and over 30 before deciding on a child. They now have a stable home environment and career and can afford to educate their children and give them the opportunities of life.

You can see that through progressions. As the Sun and Ascendant change signs/houses, people change slightly. They still retain their basic character, but the do pick up or learn new things and gain new character traits, sometimes good/positive things.

 

[starlink]

Mars is 5th can mean simply a male child, one who is asssertive, impulsive, accident prone or brave and strong. It can mean the death of a child also. Scar or mark to the head during childbirth. An Aries child.

Interesting Claire! My daughter is Aries but not accident prone. She does have a scarr on her upperlip cause by a cat scratch.You hardly see it though.
My son however is indeed assertive, impulsive and accident prone. He must have a great guardian angel because he could have been dead indeed from his last motorcycle accident. He says the little Buddha I gave him and which he had în his backpack, must have saved him! He does not have a scarr, but a very large birthmark on his buttock!!, about as big as my hand.

 

[sethi]

Does anyone have any experience with charts that have the malefics in the 5th House, regarding stories of child birth and raising children?

I am wondering if several things occur....

- The malefics in the fifth house suggest that pregnancy and giving birth could be life-threatening for the native.

- Having a child would bring hardship upon the native: either the baby would be born with birth defects and require an enormous commitment of care, or in some other way, raising a child would bring misfortune to the parents.

- People with Mars, Saturn or even Pluto in the fifth should NOT have children unless they are willing to risk their life through a bad pregnancy and birth, or take on the challenge of raising a difficult child.

In your experience, are any of these hypothesis true?

hello

this is unfortunately very very true. especially more so if the 5th is a barren sign and even more so if mars is placed in it

bye for now
sethi
________
Mflb vaporizer

 

[aquarius7000]

I have to agree with Claire there, and would have said the same things myself. A planet in the fifth house can indicate many things, and, just having a certain planet, be it the malefics Mars or Saturn, does not necessarily mean that the mother will have to face a life-threatening pregnancy. Having said this though, these planets might indicate problems during the pregnancy or delivery, or certain challenges later with the child even (as in with upbringing etc). However, there are no hard and fast rules, and Saturn might simply indicate a late pregnancy, or Mars a male child. It is rather important to consider which sign the fifth house is placed in- how the ruler is aspected, and how the planets located in the fifth are aspected. Many a time, people jump to conclusions when, for eg, you have no planets in the fifth, and you get to hear things like: the native will not have any children, which is absolutely not true. Another thing is that charts of both parents should perhaps be considered as far as this issue of 'life' goes. I have also read that the house lying opposite the fifth (eleventh) must be taken into consideration.

Just to throw some practical stuff out there, my mum's got Uranus (sq Jup) & Mars (sq Nep) in the fifth (Cancer on the cusp). She has a male (Gem with Cancer Asc) and a female child (me is a proud Aqua). Yes, that Mars did give her a rough time during both the deliveries (but then again genetics might have played their role, too). The best is, I've got Mars conj Moon in my fifth (ruled by Jup-Sag). Haven't got any experiences to report yet.

aquarius7000

 

[Kerrie]

Im interested in this subject as, I seem to have a lot of these difficult aspect.

Here is my chart.

I have Saturn in my Fifth, Leo is on the cusp (barren sign) and the 5th house ruler (the Sun) is opposite Saturn... so does it look pretty? My North node is sitting conjunct Saturn too... is this a lesson I need to learn?

Background information. I have no children, and I also havent tried for children either. I am 29 years old. I do want children one day... Im ticking so soon (my clock). Any suggestions... I was thinking maybe I should start soon just in case there might be a problem and I might need to have a child another way... IVF or adoption. No partner... but I am working on it .

 

[sethi]

kerrie there is no denial in your horoscope , just shows a late child. not an actual denial

sethi
________
Lolol

 

[starlink]

Hi Sethi, just for the record. I have Aries on the cusp of the 5th, Mars in there and I was as fertile as a rabbit!! I got pregnant both times immediately after the first time stopping with the pill. My pregnancies went perfectly well, I had natural birth's both times but my daughter had problems as a baby (arrested waterhead,thank God it stopped by itself but created pressure on the brain and she had convulsions as a baby, needing medication). Now she is very bright and just a bit too emotional.
Nothing wrong with my son so far,apart from a serious motoraccident he had and miraculously survived (must have been Jupiter in his 1st house). So I did have my worries with my children and probably will continue to have. Small children, small problems, big children big problems is how the saying goes

 

[starlink]

Kerrie, the ruler of your 5th house is placed in a watersign and so does the ruler of Saturn! Water = fertile.

 

[Kerrie]

Kerrie, the ruler of your 5th house is placed in a watersign and so does the ruler of Saturn! Water = fertile.

What is the ruler of saturn? I thought that you can only have rulers of planets, houses and the chart?

Im just learning...