The Law of Attraction - Real or Insane?

retinoid

Well-known member
Which says something to me about the efficacy of these things.

Werner Erhard replaced "est" with a group now known as Landmark Education. He has not been involved with them for many years. Erhard himself borrowed heavily from Buddhism, the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, and a few other human potential authors.

My only point being that LOA material has been around for a long time.

One thing I remember from the time when I did participate in these workshops was that sometimes you cannot change your circumstances, but you can free yourself of self-defeating beliefs about them. So maybe Dad was an alcoholic. You cannot change Dad's biography, but you can change your lifelong narrative of blaming Dad for why your life is unhappy now. Then you can let go to your attachment to defining yourself as unhappy.

Just to add some (cough, ahem) astrology to this post, my participation back-when (now over 20 years ago) probably influenced my commitment to a choice-centered astrology. My chart is what it is. A sun in Aquarius opposite Saturn isn't going to turn into a sun in Sagittarius trined by Jupiter. But I can turn to empowering interpretations of sun opposite Saturn, vs. disempowering ones.

What we also find with people who stay stuck in disempowering narratives about themselves is that there typically is a benefit to them. This may sound harsh, but really it means that they have some fear about actualizing their potential and the benefit is getting to play it safe, or they are strongly motivated to avoid taking responsibility for themselves. Blaming an alcoholic Dad isn't very empowering, but it lets Dad's child avoid taking responsibility for his own well-being. Which can demand a lot of us.

As astrologers, I hope we can encourage people in making more empowering choices.

Aligning yourself with planetary energies will change your life dramatically. For example, sun opposite saturn-if you feel you are suffering from sun affliction, strengthening the sun in your energy field will help immensely. It is what modern western astrology ignores.
 

retinoid

Well-known member
Of course, that still leaves us with 'it doesn't work for 99% of people'. I guess that means the law is solid, and we can blame those 99% for their obvious failure?

My sceptic bells are ringing here.

As with anything, practice is required to master it. How many people are master piano players without practicing? I would say over 99% of the population are not master piano players but this does not mean the piano is not real or cannot be played at all. Nor does it mean everyone will play the piano or even if they practice they will master it.
 

Oddity

Well-known member
I don't think anyone's promoting the idea that we all must become virtuoso pianists to improve our lives.

Lots and lots of people are suddenly promoting this idea of LoA (often for their own not-insubstantial financial gain) as a way that everyone can improve their life. Except the 99% who can't, of course.

It all comes out of the 19th century American New Thought movement, with more than a dash of theosophy thrown in, and I find it hard to believe that if it is such a huge universal law, that almost no-one can use it to their benefit, nay, it seems to be humanity's bane.

I'm not against magic, and use astrological magic myself, as well as other types of planetary remedies. At least the guidebooks to that aren't all fuzzy and vague, and there's some pretty good historical and personal evidence that I've not been the sole beneficiary of it. Will it work for everyone? Probably not, but it does seem to help a lot of people, and they don't have to get sucked into believing that they're invariably the problem - because that just isn't the case.

Or do you think that everyone comes into the world so hopelessly ******* up that we really need all the poverty, violence, and other horrors that humanity deals with? And it all happens because we unconsciously believe it ought to be happening, and that only the wicked should prosper and the innocent must suffer?

No. Just no.
 

retinoid

Well-known member
I don't think anyone's promoting the idea that we all must become virtuoso pianists to improve our lives.

Lots and lots of people are suddenly promoting this idea of LoA (often for their own not-insubstantial financial gain) as a way that everyone can improve their life. Except the 99% who can't, of course.

It all comes out of the 19th century American New Thought movement, with more than a dash of theosophy thrown in, and I find it hard to believe that if it is such a huge universal law, that almost no-one can use it to their benefit, nay, it seems to be humanity's bane.

I'm not against magic, and use astrological magic myself, as well as other types of planetary remedies. At least the guidebooks to that aren't all fuzzy and vague, and there's some pretty good historical and personal evidence that I've not been the sole beneficiary of it. Will it work for everyone? Probably not, but it does seem to help a lot of people, and they don't have to get sucked into believing that they're invariably the problem - because that just isn't the case.

Or do you think that everyone comes into the world so hopelessly ******* up that we really need all the poverty, violence, and other horrors that humanity deals with? And it all happens because we unconsciously believe it ought to be happening, and that only the wicked should prosper and the innocent must suffer?

No. Just no.

I agree 100% with you that LOA tends to be vague and the espousers are only rich because of selling the philosophy itself.
 

waybread

Staff member
Waybread, excellent practical advice. But you're downplaying one factor: Astrology can tell us whether a blockage is a permanent situation in the Natal chart (in which case your practical method is an invaluable life-skill), OR it's a temporary glitch that will end on its own. Still great advice either way, but less necessary in the latter case. It just might be a matter of timing and patience--astrology can be very helpful in that regard.


David, what would be an example of an astrological permanent blockage?
 

waybread

Staff member
Aligning yourself with planetary energies will change your life dramatically. For example, sun opposite saturn-if you feel you are suffering from sun affliction, strengthening the sun in your energy field will help immensely. It is what modern western astrology ignores.

Absolutely mistaken, retinoid. Choice-centered astrology emerged from modern astrology, not from a too-frequent (though unnecessary) traditional view that if you have a crummy chart, just get used to having a crummy life.

Actually, with Saturn aspects, I have found the best strategy is to view Saturn as one's wisest teacher. Saturn teaches us important lessons.
 

retinoid

Well-known member
Absolutely mistaken, retinoid. Choice-centered astrology emerged from modern astrology, not from a too-frequent (though unnecessary) traditional view that if you have a crummy chart, just get used to having a crummy life.

Actually, with Saturn aspects, I have found the best strategy is to view Saturn as one's wisest teacher. Saturn teaches us important lessons.

The traditional view also ascribes remedies and magical formulas to resolving planetary issues and in the eastern traditions. Viewing saturn as a wise teacher does nothing when it is causing you severe issues in the present. Maybe in a few years from that point it will be helpful.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Waybread, it depends on your plans and goals. There are conflicts in nearly every chart, and what's easy and straightforward for one is difficult for another. If you seek humility for example (I envy the truly humble), Natal Saturn in Leo (my situation) will be a permanent obstacle unless another factor weakens the effect.
 

waybread

Staff member
The traditional view also ascribes remedies and magical formulas to resolving planetary issues and in the eastern traditions. Viewing saturn as a wise teacher does nothing when it is causing you severe issues in the present. Maybe in a few years from that point it will be helpful.

Retinoid, you really are mistaken about Saturn. Viewing Saturn as a wise teacher does a lot during difficult times. "If it is causing you severe issues in the present," realize that you are all of the planets in your horoscope. Saturn runs a diagnostic on your beliefs about reality (ground-truth) in life. If you've been hoping that 2+2=5 and your bank account balance reflects this, Saturn comes along and says, "No, actually 2+2=4."

Saturn asks us to be very realistic about the concrete, material conditions of our lives. He rewards patience, hard work, perseverance, deferred gratification, and other old-fashioned virtues. It is far better to learn these lessons and put them to good use than it is to hope some magic rocks will make up for a lack of resourcefulness-- and somehow fix what it is that Saturn is actually in your life to teach you.

I am one of the lucky ones with Saturn opposite both my sun and Mars. The sun-Mars opposition caused me no end of grief: I'd be too brash and outspoken on one occasion, then feel remorseful or guilty about what I'd said on another, for example. One day I decided to get to work on this. I recognized that Mars rules athletics and Saturn rules self-discipline, and together they make a team. So when I exercise (Mars) I try to do it with a sense of self-discipline and I go for endurance (Saturn) rather than speed. My see-saw of brashness and remorse got a whole lot better after this. The point being that you won't change your horoscope, but you can input an empowering expression of it.

To me having a reality-based solution makes so much more sense than putting one's faith in medieval good luck charms.
 

waybread

Staff member
Waybread, it depends on your plans and goals. There are conflicts in nearly every chart, and what's easy and straightforward for one is difficult for another. If you seek humility for example (I envy the truly humble), Natal Saturn in Leo (my situation) will be a permanent obstacle unless another factor weakens the effect.

David, the key is to find an empowering interpretation of Saturn in Leo-- together with whatever is afflicting it (or probably it wouldn't come up as a "permanent obstacle.")

If you want more genuine humility in your life, I'm not even sure Saturn in Leo is the right place to look. This seems more of a Virgo, 6th house, or 12th house matter to me. Work with your chart, rather than against it.

But just to take Saturn in Leo at face value-- Saturn rules both fear and self-discipline. Leo prefers self-esteem, good humour, and courage. You could develop an affirmation to the effect of, "I am disciplining myself to face fear with good humour and courage." And then input some concrete activities in your life, however minor, to materialize your affirmation.

Saturn in Leo also seems like someone prepared to take on a lot of responsibility (Saturn) for his "subjects," be they employees, students, younger family members, or friends. Not when they don't ask for it, but when they would benefit from your leadership (Leo.)

Not to worry if neither of these quite resonates for you-- you can find something else consistent with your chart that does.
 

retinoid

Well-known member
Retinoid, you really are mistaken about Saturn. Viewing Saturn as a wise teacher does a lot during difficult times. "If it is causing you severe issues in the present," realize that you are all of the planets in your horoscope. Saturn runs a diagnostic on your beliefs about reality (ground-truth) in life. If you've been hoping that 2+2=5 and your bank account balance reflects this, Saturn comes along and says, "No, actually 2+2=4."

Saturn asks us to be very realistic about the concrete, material conditions of our lives. He rewards patience, hard work, perseverance, deferred gratification, and other old-fashioned virtues. It is far better to learn these lessons and put them to good use than it is to hope some magic rocks will make up for a lack of resourcefulness-- and somehow fix what it is that Saturn is actually in your life to teach you.

I am one of the lucky ones with Saturn opposite both my sun and Mars. The sun-Mars opposition caused me no end of grief: I'd be too brash and outspoken on one occasion, then feel remorseful or guilty about what I'd said on another, for example. One day I decided to get to work on this. I recognized that Mars rules athletics and Saturn rules self-discipline, and together they make a team. So when I exercise (Mars) I try to do it with a sense of self-discipline and I go for endurance (Saturn) rather than speed. My see-saw of brashness and remorse got a whole lot better after this. The point being that you won't change your horoscope, but you can input an empowering expression of it.

To me having a reality-based solution makes so much more sense than putting one's faith in medieval good luck charms.

Waybread oftentimes a combination is good. Many people come here to have their charts read and are very stuck where real world solutions are impossible to do (been there). Remedies will open the door and relieve tension, but does not solve the problem.
 

waybread

Staff member
Retinoid, what follows is kind of a rant. Forgive me.

I read a lot of charts for people on this forum and at Astrodienst. Sometimes people are stuck merely because they want their reality to be different than what it is. Oh, you know: "Why am I 40 and still single?" "When will my money problems clear up?" "When will I get married?"

They want an astrologer to tell them that Mr. Right is just around the corner, and that they will win the big lottery next Tuesday. But actually, you can look at their charts and get a sense of exactly why they are single (afflicted Saturn-ruled 7th house,) or why they have difficulty in managing the money they do have (Saturn in the 2nd squaring Neptune or Pluto.)

I know they don't want to hear this, but my advice to the lovelorn and perpetually broke is generally to "ride the horse in the direction it's going." The lovelorn generally have so much need and energy riding on finding Mr. Right (as they have pre-defined him) that they would drive any ordinary man running for the hills, because the lovelorn have so much need and control issues. The perpetually broke don't need an amulet as much as they need to learn basic principles of personal finance; and that Saturn in the second teaches thrift, budgeting, deferred gratification, saving for one's old age, and not spending money they don't have (which Jupiter or Neptune are all too happy to promote.) A shocking number of people who win the lottery actually end off worse financially than before, because they have no idea how to save and invest money, or how to live within their means.

One difficulty with the LOA is that so often people think that externalities will make them happy. ("If only I were married to Prince Charming, then I would live happily-ever-after." "If only I were rich.....") Why not just be the happiest and best single one knows how to be? Be grateful you're not married to a cheater or an abusive alcoholic, which is who Prince Charming might turn out to be, once the honeymoon is over. Why not appreciate the money one does have? These are attitude shifts that people have some control over. And heaven forbid that such people would put themselves out there on a reputable Internet dating site, join a singles group or read up on personal finance.

Or use the LOA to become a more open and loving person, or someone with sufficient funds to contribute to the local homeless shelter. Use the LOA to drop the sense of entitlement.

I would never deny that some people have serious problems that we cannot just paste a smiley face overtop. Things like injuries, illness, long-term unemployment, addicted children, a jailed spouse, and so on. But what we can do is identify the real problem, and then pare away the disempowering, self-defeating stories we tell ourselves about the issues. Oftentimes we can look laterally, and recognize that a solution awaits us, but that it will take us way out of our comfort zone.

I guess that if an amulet makes somebody feel better, I shouldn't try to deny them that boost. But what concerns me is that an amulet is yet another externality when the real work is probably to be done within.

And the horoscope does give us hints as to how best to do that inner work.
 

retinoid

Well-known member
Waybread I agree a lot with what you say. I have struggled myself on if I know desires do not bring lasting happiness, if I know everything I need is inside me then why focus of attaining things?

Perhaps it is my Jupiter in the second in cancer, but things do make me feel good. And if I am going to live in this world, I want to have a relationship, have money and have sex. I have realized the Self, I have experienced the deep peace and serenity and it is what I desire forever. But I live in this world. It is my dharma to live here and be able to live to my utmost. Yet how do I do this if I want to escape?

For me joining spirituality with the material is my path. Just being happy with what is when you are not really satisfied is not spiritual, it is just settling. I can convince myself I am happy with what I have all I want, but if I am not, then that feeling will not last long.

While the person with the astrological affliction does need to do inner work, if the affliction is bad enough, they cannot do the inner work till the planet's energy is loosened up a bit. I have been leery on such things in the past, but doing them is what changed my mind and seeing them work.
 

waybread

Staff member
Retinoid, I think we are on the earth plane for a reason. If we were meant to live our earth lives as disembodied enlightened beings, we wouldn't be here, slogging through our commute to work.

Jupiter in the second supposedly is an indicator of wealth but if it is retrograde or afflicted, our jovial principle of expansion may simply tell us to go ahead and overspend the credit card, with the faith that "something will turn up." But Saturn says that nothing will turn up if you cannot account for every nickel now.

I think Jupiter's goods and valuables have to do with its rulership of optimism and developing a life philosophy.

Did you ever read The Millionaire Next Door? Old but classic. Highly recommended.
http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-N...8331883&sr=1-1&keywords=millionaire+next+door

These were people who started with something very ordinary like running a janitorial service. They bought durable goods that would last a long time, and got them repaired when they showed signs of wear, rather than tossing them out. The women bought high-end clothes-- at the thrift shop. These people were bargain hunters, including for used items.

I recall telling my children when I was a single mom and deeply in debit, and they wanted something that I couldn't afford that month, that we couldn't afford it that month, but maybe we could buy it next month.

Sex is a natural human need, and at the very least, is how all of us got here.
 

dowhanawi

Well-known member
I've just been following this convo as opposed to participating. Its been interesting as well as insightful.

I have Venus in cancer, 12th house. And my relationship choices have been as bad as this could describe. In fact my current relationship is married to an ex con, alcoholic with PTSD. Why do I end up like this? Cuz I haven't learned...till recently. I have often wondered where does my chart suggest I work on this? Well my Saturn is conjunct my Venus. I think that's where (from reading this discussion). But even without seeing that *I* decided enough is enough, *I'm* taking this situation and learning a lesson. I made him move out (although we are still together) let him fall down (live on the street) and well he has (recently) picked himself up, doing what he needs. He still won't be living at home for the next year. I am taking charge of my 12th house! Also mars is very strong in my chart and (again without realizing it first, like I saw it in my chart being strong, I just never recognized it in myself) I think I am finally owning that.

Interestingly he brought up LOA when he had breakfast with us this morning (he is allowed to stop by for breakfast if his sponsor is picking him up for a morning aa meeting). He said to me "if I keep doing good things LOA will bring good things to me". I replied " Honey you are why I am a little pissed off at karma, you have more good things come to you, more good luck then anyone I have ever met but you throw it all away over and over. If you keep doing good things you will simply start to see and appreciate these things and no longer throw them away".

I don't know if i managed to stay on topic here, but this has been good for me anyways. :)
 
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It's really insane :innocent:

But it is real.

But I understand how you feel because it's frustrating when you feel in your heart and soul that you have been setting the appropriate intentions, and then some, and then someone goes and says, "It's the law of attraction." It kind of almost feels like a slap in the face in a way. Like, it almost feels that after all of the good things you've done, it's all for nought. I think speaking about the laws of attraction in this way to another person can sound a little undermining- which is why I never tell someone that when they really want something but can't seem to get it yet. The universe works in grander ways than that. Sometimes the universe puts forth challenges in our midst for many other laws of the universe. So something can't simply be written off as the attraction law.

That being said, it is real, but don't be discouraged. You have a lot of spiritual support around you, as does everyone. Keep communicating with your guides or your higher mindset. Keep in contact with your angels if you believe in them. Use positive affirmations and meditate as well. If something you want is on the same key as the higher purpose of things, then you will get it...

Edit: I'll also post this site which lists the other laws of the universe just in case for anyone that may be interested.

http://www.one-mind-one-energy.com/12-universal-laws.html
 
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