Term I'm not familiar with - Conjunctional

Moog

Well-known member
What does this mean or what is it referring to?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
In addition to meaning "joined to", it can also mean a concurrent event or circumstance, 2 or more things happening at the same time, or at the same place.
 

Moog

Well-known member
If the Sun and the Moon cannot be Hyleg and the chart is Conjunctional, then take the degree of the Ascendant.

Also

If the Sun and the Moon cannot be the Hyleg and the chart is Preventional, then take the Part of Fortune

Conjunctional and Preventional. I know not what either means.

Oh wait, I found something now. Apparently one refers to a chart with a waxing moon, and the other a waning moon? Can someone confirm this?
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Also



Conjunctional and Preventional. I know not what either means.

Oh wait, I found something now. Apparently one refers to a chart with a waxing moon, and the other a waning moon? Can someone confirm this?

It refers to the last lunation before the birth (or in horary, before the question chart was cast).
We take into account only the full and new moon.
If the last lunation before the birth was New Moon (and the phase is waxing) then the chart of the new born is said to be Conjunctional.
If the last lunation was Full Moon (so in the wanning phases) it is said that the chart is Preventional.
Some softwares like Morinus casts a so called syzygy chart, which shows what type of lunation you have in your chart.
For example, the Full Moon has collected the light of the Sun and now is spreading it through the sky. The New Moon is in the phase of collecting the light.

SAN is an abbreviation to the Syzygyium Ante Nativatem and is referring to the natives lunation preceding the birth.

In the case of defining the Hyleg, if your chart seems to be Conjunctional (New Moon before birth) you take ASC as Hyleg (if fulfills the other conditions, such as aspects from its dispositors).
If the syzygy was Preventional (Full Moon preceding the birth) than you take Part of Fortune as Hyleg.
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Thank you Omnisphericus!

My own chart is preventional then.

And did you found the Hyleg and Alcocoden?
From what I see in this chart you have posted here it may be the Sun?! IF you use whole sign house system.
Merucry would be the Alcocoden but I do not know what the masters said about the combusted alcocoden.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
And did you found the Hyleg and Alcocoden?
From what I see in this chart you have posted here it may be the Sun?! IF you use whole sign house system.
Mercury would be the Alcocoden but I do not know what the masters said about the combusted alcocoden.
Omnisphericus I note you capitalized the "IF" there!! Clearly, a difference of house systems changes the situation - sometimes dramatically. Bernadette Brady for example advises using Alcabitius for determining the Hyleg and the Alcocoden - what would you advise?:smile:
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Omnisphericus I note you capitalized the "IF" there!! Clearly, a difference of house systems changes the situation - sometimes dramatically. Bernadette Brady for example advises using Alcabitius for determining the Hyleg and the Alcocoden - what would you advise?:smile:

I also use Alcabitius house division, and Regiomontanus as well.
But WH system is not wrong too.
Alcabitius house system was used by Bonatti as far as I know, and many medieval astrolgoers has used it.
Yes, Bernadette is strict and concrete in defining one system only and she does this in order not to confuse the students.
For example, for finding the Hyleg she is recommending the Bonatti's system only (in her courses), for dignity table she's using Egyptian terms instead of Ptolomy's and etc.
She must make choices and decisions. Because if different students use different techniques, they will all get different results.
Bonatti in his book has listed how different astrologers (like Abu'Ali, Ptolomy, Aomar and etc.) are allowing different places for the Hyleg placement. And out of this you can have different results.
For example, Ptolomy is not allowing the 8th house for the Sun's Hyleg, while Bonatti is accepting it if in masculine sign. Ptolomy is not allowing 9th house Moon because she is impeded, but Dorotheus accepts it if in feminine house and etc. Don't get me about the judgments of the astrologers (who was allowing what), maybe I'm wrong in listing the names but I just want to make a point.

So, using different house systems can also be a problem in making judgments.
Me for example, even though I use Alcabitius, if Sun is i 11th, but in the 12th sign, I note that and having it in to account in the final judgment defining the Hyleg.
And for the rule of which almost all astrologers of the medieval period agree, that is, that in order a planet or point to be Hyleg, one of his dignity rulers must be in aspect with it, I use WH aspects too. I see this Robert Zoller doing it. But if some other dignity ruler is making more concrete aspect (by degrees), that one for sure is stronger and should be taken into account before the WH aspect.

This is all a matter of improvisation of the experienced astrologer.
 

Moog

Well-known member
And did you found the Hyleg and Alcocoden?
From what I see in this chart you have posted here it may be the Sun?! IF you use whole sign house system.
Merucry would be the Alcocoden but I do not know what the masters said about the combusted alcocoden.

Yes, looks that way.

I'm sure it can't be a good thing :whistling:

Anyway, I wasn't looking for me, but other dead folks. Hopefully I've a few years in me yet.

What do you think a Hyleg with no dignity would signify? Poor health in general? Does it represent general vitality, or am I wrong in thinking that?
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
This is an area I'm not very familiar with. I don't think I have a hyleg, or does the Ascendant automatically become Hyleg if there's no one else that could take the position?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
The "Part" or Lot of the Hyleg (Lot of the giver of life) Much used in Islamic transitional era astrology; formula: ascendant + degree of the full or new Moon immediately prior to birth - natal Moon = pars hyleg.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Right:sideways:! If it ain't complicated then how good can it be:ninja:!
Too bad my little brain always seeks out the simple and direct, whenever possible:andy:!
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Yes, looks that way.

I'm sure it can't be a good thing :whistling:

Anyway, I wasn't looking for me, but other dead folks. Hopefully I've a few years in me yet.

What do you think a Hyleg with no dignity would signify? Poor health in general? Does it represent general vitality, or am I wrong in thinking that?

I wouldn't go that far. Even Lilly was not utterly sutisfied with the technique of Hyleg, Alcocoden and Anareta. He said:
'I am not sufficiently satisfied
either of the Hyleg or Anareta, so neither of the Alcochodon'.


Even in the examples calculated today by the leading masters of traditional astrology, the years given by the Alcocoden does not match precisely.
For example Bernadette Brady (even though she is not a TA per se, she knows the techniques) in her article 'Hyleg and Alcocoden' has calculated the years of life of Charlee Chaplin, and she was going through the technique precisely how the old masters were presented it in their writings.
It seems out that according to the Alcocoden he should live 82,5 years; but he lived 88 years.
As once Robert Zoller said: "I don't know, only God knows".
Or Lilly: "I thank to the Almighty God, for prolonging the years of my life".

There is something more involved here, we may call it God.
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
The "Part" or Lot of the Hyleg (Lot of the giver of life) Much used in Islamic transitional era astrology; formula: ascendant + degree of the full or new Moon immediately prior to birth - natal Moon = pars hyleg.

dr.farr, the Pars Hyleg and the actual Hyleg has two different essential meanings.
The essential meaning of the Pars Hyleg is: "What I'm doing here, what is the purpose/dharma of my life?; while the essential meaning of the actual Hyleg and Alcocoden is: "And how long should I do that?".
So they have two different meanings and they show two different things, or answer two different questions.

However, I'm not sure that the formula you gave is correct.
I found this formula for Pars Hyleg:
Ascendant + Moon - SAN (SAN = "Syzygy ante nativitatem" (the degree of the previous full or new Moon, whichever is closest to but prior to the birth).
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfa/dreamhouse/attic/lots/hyleg/hpcalc.html
 
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