SUNRISE Charts as predictive tools...?

[Crystalpages]

Looking through my (very old) notes, as I do from time to time, there was a mention noted from back in early 70s based on a tip shared by an older astrologer about some esoteric technique used by him of general predictive value of sunrise charts. He used the sunrise based on the appearance of upper limbus of sun. Unfortunately in those times sharing was limited and somewhat guarded and it was not considered polite to ask too many probing questions, so details were sketchy.

Has someone here heard of or perhaps even tried this? For individuals or groups of individuals, etc...? If so, please share what you can.

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

 

[dr. farr]

For mundane charts (such as political elections), and for other inception charts where the time of the inception is unknown, I have always used the sunrise chart, and I believe with fairly accurate results-I have discussed this in my posts to the thread (in the Mundane Astrology forum) entitled, "Nicolas Sarkozy's Re-election Chances" (last entry dated 6/23/12)

Regarding appearance of the sunrise sky, I think (if I remember correctly) there are certain indications (omens) given by Varahamihira in his "Brihat Samhita".


(Note: where the birth time of an individual was completely unknown, the Jaimini adepts of Ponmudi Forrest, Kerala, whom I knew, always used a sunrise chart)

 

[Crystalpages]

For mundane charts (such as political elections), and for other inception charts where the time of the inception is unknown, I have always used the sunrise chart, and I believe with fairly accurate results-I have discussed this in my posts to the thread (in the Mundane Astrology forum) entitled, "Nicolas Sarkozy's Re-election Chances" (last entry dated 6/23/12)

Regarding appearance of the sunrise sky, I think (if I remember correctly) there are certain indications (omens) given by Varahamihira in his "Brihat Samhita".


(Note: where the birth time of an individual was completely unknown, the Jaimini adepts of Ponmudi Forrest, Kerala, whom I knew, always used a sunrise chart)

Thanks Dr. Farr, and it is good to know that someone has used the sunrise chart and found it meaningful. My question however was slightly different and not about the natal chart or for epochs for which many also use the moon charts with good claimed meaningfulness, but more like the sunrise chart as a daily guide and sunrise charts for the day of ingresses of sun (into nakshatra and signs for instance). Similar concept to the annual charts used by successful mundane events predictors, but not identical!

Also, I just now read that you use tropical zodac. While that would not influence the sunrise epoch, but the rest of the delineation, I am guessing, is done utilizing the tropical zodiac? Please confirm. Looking forward to hearing more about this novel approach as mentioned in the other thread.

To make the sunrise more individualistic, my guess is that it it should provide some daily guidance when teamed with a nativity's chart? That is the impression I had when talking with the somewhat taciturn senior astrologer w.r.t. the old notes I was mulling over about!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

 

[JUPITERASC]

Looking through my (very old) notes, as I do from time to time, there was a mention noted from back in early 70s based on a tip shared by an older astrologer about some esoteric technique used by him of general predictive value of sunrise charts. He used the sunrise based on the appearance of upper limbus of sun. Unfortunately in those times sharing was limited and somewhat guarded and it was not considered polite to ask too many probing questions, so details were sketchy.

Has someone here heard of or perhaps even tried this? For individuals or groups of individuals, etc...? If so, please share what you can.

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

SUNRISE and SUNSET are the two OPPOSITE and obvious markers of the 'Day'
and so
SUNSET chart technique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQEkCt825k is equally as interesting as the SUNRISE chart technique

 

[Crystalpages]

Agreed and I had thought of that too, but since most activities in the world (work, markets etc) take place during the daytime, I thought of focussing only on the sunrise.

Easier to eat an elephant morsel by morsel, metaphorically speaking! ;-)

Thanks and regards,

Rohiniranjan

 

[JUPITERASC]

Agreed and I had thought of that too, but since most activities in the world (work, markets etc) take place during the daytime, I thought of focussing only on the sunrise.

Easier to eat an elephant morsel by morsel, metaphorically speaking! ;-)

Thanks and regards,

Rohiniranjan

That's OK
The SUNRISE chart is of course the well-known basis of Modern SUNSIGN astrology

attachment: The elephant in the room

 

[Crystalpages]

There is not, really! Unless one enters "Dumbo's Nightmare"? ;-) (Elephants on Parade theme in Walt Disney Movie that kids enjoy so much?)...!

 

[dr. farr]

One daily (or ingress) use of sunrise charts, is to make an ashtakavarga analysis for the day (or for the period of the ingress) by projecting the ascendant and the 7 traditional planets of the sunrise chart into the natal birth chart, adding up the sarvashtakavarga bindus arising from that projection, to determine the + mixed or - trends of that day (or of that ingress period) for the individual. Aditya's "Practical Ashtakavarga" gives several methods, the "how is your day today?" method, uses the daily sunrise chart.

Yes, I use the tropical zodiacal chart as the matrix for all delineations (including the methodologies derived from jyotish tradition)

An interesting approach, for a daily or an ingress chart, is to make a composite of the person's birth chart with the sunrise chart for the day (or with the ingress chart for the time of ingress; same with New Moon/Full Moon, etc), then proceed to delineate that composite according to whatever methodologies or techniques one chooses.

 

[dr. farr]

... a tip shared by an older astrologer about some esoteric technique used by him of general predictive value of sunrise charts. He used the sunrise based on the appearance of upper limbus of sun.

Rohiniranjan

This is interesting, because it means that this practitioner was using SUN TIME (called local apparent time) as the foundation for chart calculations RATHER THAN LOCAL MEAN TIME (SUN TIME-aka sundial time-ie local apparent time, can vary from local MEAN time, by as many as 16 minutes, depending upon time of the year) Note that, in my researches, no contemporary astrological program corrects ENTIRELY for local apparent time-most programs have SOME correction, but this is quite minimal at most (this matter is quite controversial, and has occasioned heated debates whenever I have been brought it up, both here on AW and over at skyscript-before I was banned from that site so, I won't post anymore about it-but it did strike me, that this older astrologer was clearly using SUN TIME-local apparent time-for calculating his sunrise charts...)*



*the variation between local apparent time-SUN TIME-and local mean time, for each day of the year, can be found by googling daily sun data and going to the website indicated.

 

[Crystalpages]

This is interesting, because it means that this practitioner was using SUN TIME (called local apparent time) as the foundation for chart calculations RATHER THAN LOCAL MEAN TIME (SUN TIME-aka sundial time-ie local apparent time, can vary from local MEAN time, by as many as 16 minutes, depending upon time of the year) Note that, in my researches, no contemporary astrological program corrects ENTIRELY for local apparent time-most programs have SOME correction, but this is quite minimal at most (this matter is quite controversial, and has occasioned heated debates whenever I have been brought it up, both here on AW and over at skyscript-before I was banned from that site so, I won't post anymore about it-but it did strike me, that this older astrologer was clearly using SUN TIME-local apparent time-for calculating his sunrise charts...)*

*the variation between local apparent time-SUN TIME-and local mean time, for each day of the year, can be found by googling daily sun data and going to the website indicated.

Dear Richard,

I don't know what the venerable gentleman was using, as stated clearly earlier, nor was questioning him, but just wondering what my notes amounted to be in current context?

Kind of like scriptures? We are clueless who wrote those and what we can interpret those to have become? So, we can speculate all we possibly can and so on? Including a few other things. of course?

Those might not be the perfect approaches? Others claim the same too! What do you suggest?

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

 

[dr. farr]

I follow the Eclectic's Motto: "Test all things, hold fast the good"...

 

[Crystalpages]

I follow the Eclectic's Motto: "Test all things, hold fast the good"...

Yes I heard recently from an acolyte from that school who was reluctant to, nay resistant to give his birthdata, already given...! I wonder when such dramas would cease? ;-)

This has nothing to do with the use of tropical in Jyotish! I remain curious as long as sharing continues...?

Regards.

Rohiniranjan

 

[dr. farr]

A minority of jyotisha have always been sayana (that % now is probably very tiny, certainly under 1%) And, as you know, there once was a time when the constellations and signs were "in the same place": this was in ancient times, when the foundations of jyotish (and of Chinese and of Western astrological traditions) were laid. So, for me (and without trying to advocate it to anyone else), application of jyotish methodologies and techniques to a tropical zodiacal matrix, make sense, but more importantly, have seemed to "work" well and accurately and reliably, when I have done so: and, for me, that's all that really counts!

 

[Crystalpages]

A minority of jyotisha have always been sayana (that % now is probably very tiny, certainly under 1%) And, as you know, there once was a time when the constellations and signs were "in the same place": this was in ancient times, when the foundations of jyotish (and of Chinese and of Western astrological traditions) were laid. So, for me (and without trying to advocate it to anyone else), application of jyotish methodologies and techniques to a tropical zodiacal matrix, make sense, but more importantly, have seemed to "work" well and accurately and reliably, when I have done so: and, for me, that's all that really counts!

Richard,

We have always loved our minorities back there and here where I am a minority?

The simple reality is not about scriptures etc.

But that is not what IT is about?

So guess what it is about and how can we cooperate to go about honestly and without any drama ;-)

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

 

[JUPITERASC]

This is interesting, because it means that this practitioner was using SUN TIME (called local apparent time) as the foundation for chart calculations RATHER THAN LOCAL MEAN TIME (SUN TIME-aka sundial time-ie local apparent time, can vary from local MEAN time, by as many as 16 minutes, depending upon time of the year) Note that, in my researches, no contemporary astrological program corrects ENTIRELY for local apparent time-most programs have SOME correction, but this is quite minimal at most (this matter is quite controversial, and has occasioned heated debates whenever I have been brought it up, both here on AW and over at skyscript-before I was banned from that site so, I won't post anymore about it-but it did strike me, that this older astrologer was clearly using SUN TIME-local apparent time-for calculating his sunrise charts...)*

*the variation between local apparent time-SUN TIME-and local mean time, for each day of the year, can be found by googling daily sun data and going to the website indicated.

dr. farr you have mentioned an important consideration
i.e.
THE EQUATION OF TIME

because

QUOTE

'…..The measurement of time no longer uses sundials but relies on devices,
such as clocks,
to determine a uniform rate.
This rate is calibrated using astronomical observations
so that clock time is equivalent to time determined by the mean motion of the Earth.

We know, from modern astronomical observations and from observations of artificial satellites,
that the Earth's rotation rate is not constant
but varies both over the short term and over centuries.
These small variations are due to real variations in the rotation of the Earth
and are compensated for by inserting leap-seconds as appropriate.....'


'…...If a sundial is used to determine the time
it rapidly becomes apparent that it does not indicate the same time as clock time.

The difference amounting to some 16 minutes at certain times of year

This difference is also seen as an asymmetry in the times of sunrise and sunset.
It is called the Equation of Time.

The equation of time has two causes:

The plane of the Earth's equator is inclined to the plane of the Earth's orbit around the Sun
The orbit of the Earth around the Sun is an ellipse and not a circle....' http://www.rmg.co.uk/explore/astronomy-and-time/time-facts/the-equation-of-time


TABLE OF THE EQUATION OF TIME http://sun.nessy-edv.at/Equation of Time.htm


Astrologers today tend to view abstract images on computer screens
and those computer screen images of two dimensional charts
are detached from 'the reality of the local sky view'

 

[Crystalpages]

I recall two relatively older publications, one from NC Lahiri's bureau on sun (terms and calculations) and another on a nadi method of rectification by Bh. S. Rao which deal in great details about the different sunrises (!) including calculation tables based on geo-cordinates etc. As well as Usha Shashi's manual. Those used to be required readings for astrology students several decades ago. Now of course Computer Kalki Awatar and worshippers do not even go there! What was once was essential has now become esoteric! <LOL> (or maybe we should lament instead of laughin?)

Rohiniranjan

 

[Arena]

This is interesting, because it means that this practitioner was using SUN TIME (called local apparent time) as the foundation for chart calculations RATHER THAN LOCAL MEAN TIME (SUN TIME-aka sundial time-ie local apparent time, can vary from local MEAN time, by as many as 16 minutes, depending upon time of the year) Note that, in my researches, no contemporary astrological program corrects ENTIRELY for local apparent time-most programs have SOME correction, but this is quite minimal at most (this matter is quite controversial, and has occasioned heated debates whenever I have been brought it up, both here on AW and over at skyscript-before I was banned from that site so, I won't post anymore about it-but it did strike me, that this older astrologer was clearly using SUN TIME-local apparent time-for calculating his sunrise charts...)*



*the variation between local apparent time-SUN TIME-and local mean time, for each day of the year, can be found by googling daily sun data and going to the website indicated.

Hmmm... so you really find this to be true in computer programs of astrology?
That they do not correct the time to local sun time?
I tried asking about this issue as I do not have the knowledge of the software... but I have suspected that in case where I am born, the sun time here is one and a half hour behind the clock time all year... this is also one reason I have been keen on exploring different asc for my own chart and the people around me who also were born here.

But the method of putting the person's ASC as the same degree of the sun on the day they were born, I just wonder if it works in all cases then?

 

[dr. farr]

hmmm... So you really find this to be true in computer programs of astrology?
That they do not correct the time to local sun time?

Answer: Yes, i have become convinced of this as a fact-however this subject is so ultra-controversial that i will not comment further about it.

But the method of putting the person's asc as the same degree of the sun on the day they were born, i just wonder if it works in all cases then?

answer: The superior way in natal delineation is to know the time of birth and to use the chart erected for that exact birth time (date and place) however, if this cannot be done (due to the birth time being unknown) the superior (to using noon) method is using the sunrise chart, and counting the sign of the sun's place (which will be the 1st house of the chart) as the practical delineative ascendant.

 

[Crystalpages]

answer: The superior way in natal delineation is to know the time of birth and to use the chart erected for that exact birth time (date and place) however, if this cannot be done (due to the birth time being unknown) the superior (to using noon) method is using the sunrise chart, and counting the sign of the sun's place (which will be the 1st house of the chart) as the practical delineative ascendant.

Dear Arena and Richard,

Perhaps, rather than us astrologers and astro-philes -- getting all riled up simply accept that a chart can have many orientations? Even when accurate birth-time is known and actually directly observed (vs recorded?) by the astrologer present?

Isn't that why SOME astrologers though all of us enamoured by the ascendant (symbolic sunrise moment?) do not lose sight of the other personal indicators?

Be it lunar ascendant or atmakaraka in rising, or other orientations in so many perspectives that Jyotish offers, including the dasha and bhukti and finer chart-praveshas? The points of ENTRY, which is essentially what horoscopy is all about?

No one really knows, and no one really ever demonstrated and hence the fights and doubts remain?

Let us begin again, but sincerely and not at the behest of a few that stray in and derail us all? The powers of EVIL in Kali-Yuga have always been stronger?

And Richard (Dr. Farr), if you ever get banned again, particularly on this forum, I shall quit with you as well! We are in a good milieu and you must trust my instincts! I have been banned only once that hurt, because it was from an egotistical moderator who twisted my words and ill-portrayed me! The next time, it was by a dinosaur whose cat icon was protected by a helmet that looked like a watermelon, but LOVE simply prevailed and a brother (different one!) got found and the third time -- where fundamentalism seemed to be on the rise on Yahoo -- I simply left before they could ban a free spirit! ;-)

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
(my name and not an internet handle ;-))

 

[dr. farr]

Dear Arena and Richard,

Perhaps, rather than us astrologers and astro-philes -- getting all riled up simply accept that a chart can have many orientations? Even when accurate birth-time is known and actually directly observed (vs recorded?) by the astrologer present?

Isn't that why SOME astrologers though all of us enamoured by the ascendant (symbolic sunrise moment?) do not lose sight of the other personal indicators?

Be it lunar ascendant or atmakaraka in rising, or other orientations in so many perspectives that Jyotish offers, including the dasha and bhukti and finer chart-praveshas? The points of ENTRY, which is essentially what horoscopy is all about?



Rohiniranjan
(my name and not an internet handle ;-))

I completely agree!