Sun-Pluto aspect

[graay ghost]

Sun Pluto trine.

It's like Stubborn Virgo said, I guess. You don't wake up to abuse until later. Now that there are people with power who actually seem to be kind to me I can't relax, I'm terrified by people being nice to me and harmless jokes... because past experience has taught me that people with power may show some kindness at first, but no matter how much you may try to please them, they are actually constantly watching your every small movement for you to trip up in some small way that you didn't even know was wrong yet and wreck your life for days, weeks, months...

For me it was not only a parent but also petty tyrant bosses, and I think probably also teachers, but it's difficult for me to remember that far back. Nothing good has come of this. I'd like to go back to sleep.

 

[waybread]

Stubborn Virgo, I think that usually with sun-Pluto aspects, the people with the hard squares and oppositions are more apt to manifest the difficulties of this pair, but I have seen charts where the person has a sextile or trine, and they are still of a ruthless and dominating disposition. I think that these people find that dominating others (Pluto) actually stokes their ego (sun) in a way that they find exciting (sextile) or rewarding (trine.)

The conjunction can go in different ways, depending on the rest of the chart.

R4ven, it's great to see you back. Can you say more about your conjunction.

 

[R4VEN]

I have seen charts where the person has a sextile or trine, and they are still of a ruthless and dominating disposition. I think that these people find that dominating others (Pluto) actually stokes their ego (sun) in a way that they find exciting (sextile) or rewarding (trine.)

The conjunction can go in different ways, depending on the rest of the chart.

R4ven, it's great to see you back. Can you say more about your conjunction.

I wander in and out of this forum, only stopping when something takes my eye.

Given my Sun-Pluto conjunction is in the 7th house, I find myself in relationships in which power becomes the main feature. I have always found myself in relationships with people who are rather powerless, and in order to feel more `complete' they suppress me in order to feel stronger, or else - as in the case of my ex-husband - who denied me my basic needs so that he could have `more'. Due to my very close Mars-Neptune conjunction in Libra, I allowed this, that is, until it almost broke me completely, and then I rebelled!

I relate more to the Sun being about the ego, probably because my Sun is in Leo, but also because my father is described quite succinctly by my Saturn in Leo in the 8th. My father was the first person to suppress my natural curiosity and exuberance, and for some reason he saw a need for `bringing me into line'. I have always been attracted to Scorpionic types - my father was a Scorpio Sun, and my ex-husband has Scorpio Rising. It seems I have needed to experience the control of others over me in order to find and then hone my own strength.
My ex would always tell me that I was controlling him, and yet when we married his life didn't change much, while mine became so constricted. The Neptune factor is powerful in my chart - as well as my Sun being closely sextile the Neptune-Mars conjunction.

Not to overlook my natal Chiron being in Scorpio, which describes themes of power, control, loss, grief and abuse as ones with which I have had to deal throughout my life.

For me, the Sun-Pluto conjunction is just part of a much bigger and intricate picture.

 

[waybread]

R4ven, thanks for sharing about how life feels to one sun-Pluto person!

I have sun opposite Pluto, which carries its own dynamic.

I have always found myself in relationships with people who are rather powerless, and in order to feel more `complete' they suppress me in order to feel stronger, or else - as in the case of my ex-husband - who denied me my basic needs so that he could have `more'.

I don't know if you've read Julian Fellowes, Past Imperfect, or Snobs. He's got this dynamic down perfectly, although in his books, it's class-based.

 

[R4VEN]

I have sun opposite Pluto, which carries its own dynamic.

I don't know if you've read Julian Fellowes, Past Imperfect, or Snobs. He's got this dynamic down perfectly, although in his books, it's class-based.

Your experience of the Sun-Pluto opposition, waybread? I know a few people with the opposition, but I'd be curious to hear about it from the inside, so to speak.

I haven't read the books you mentioned by Fellowes, but on checking his birth details, Fellowes has a wide-ish, but still within orb Sun-Pluto conjunction in Leo. Perhaps he works with his by writing about it. The themes he covers in Downton Abbey certainly are about power - those who have it and those who don't, and how each deals with it.

 

[Stubborn Virgo]

Stubborn Virgo, I think that usually with sun-Pluto aspects, the people with the hard squares and oppositions are more apt to manifest the difficulties of this pair, but I have seen charts where the person has a sextile or trine, and they are still of a ruthless and dominating disposition. I think that these people find that dominating others (Pluto) actually stokes their ego (sun) in a way that they find exciting (sextile) or rewarding (trine.)

That doesn't sound like me, at all. Or maybe you're referring to my family?

 

[waybread]

Stubborn Virgo, a general rule in modern astrology is that we either:

1. manifest the positive dimensions of our chart placements,
2. manifest their negative dimensions, or
3. suppress and deny unwanted planet energies. These get projected onto other people in our lives, who show up exhibiting the negative traits.

Pluto is a prime candidate for disowning (#3) because it is apt to get experienced as domineering, ruthless, bullying behaviours.

A sun-Pluto opposition is a prime candidate for disowning, because a planet opposite the sun (a "me" point, one's sense of self) is liable to get experienced as another person or people ("not me") who seemingly embody the planet's negative traits.

Given the above, it is unsurprising how many people with sun opposite Pluto have had a dysfunctional relationship with their fathers.

R4ven, I experienced my relationship with my father as dysfunctional. Then sometimes after I left home, I got into situations with supervisors or co-workers where they seemed like ruthless bullies, out to destroy me for no logical reason that I could fathom, other than that I tend to be an uppity female. Some of their behaviour was very under-handed, too, which is another negative Plutonian trait. And I had hard evidence of their actions.

Things really turned around when I realized that I am all of the planets in my chart. There's no one else out there.

When Pluto semi-squared my sun more recently, I had some comparatively minor episodes of this nature, although interestingly, they more involved my husband than myself.

Interestingly, when I once was able to have a rational discussion with a Plutonian-type of co-worker about his doings, he confessed that he saw me as able to destroy a program that he was attempting to build in his career. He saw his actions as self-protection. An uppity woman can seem very threatening to more traditionally-minded men-- and women-- even when she means them no harm.

(I have Uranus conjunct MC trine sun conjunct Mars, incidentally.)

I can't say I have a "dominate or be dominated" mentality, which I think is common of sun square Pluto. I do have a perfect dread of losing my identity (Aquarian sun) to the kind of big alpha male who drains the oxygen out of the room for everyone else.

 

[graay ghost]

Stubborn Virgo, a general rule in modern astrology is that we either:

1. manifest the positive dimensions of our chart placements,
2. manifest their negative dimensions, or
3. suppress and deny unwanted planet energies. These get projected onto other people in our lives, who show up exhibiting the negative traits.

Pluto is a prime candidate for disowning (#3) because it is apt to get experienced as domineering, ruthless, bullying behaviours.

A sun-Pluto opposition is a prime candidate for disowning, because a planet opposite the sun (a "me" point, one's sense of self) is liable to get experienced as another person or people ("not me") who seemingly embody the planet's negative traits.

Given the above, it is unsurprising how many people with sun opposite Pluto have had a dysfunctional relationship with their fathers.

R4ven, I experienced my relationship with my father as dysfunctional. Then sometimes after I left home, I got into situations with supervisors or co-workers where they seemed like ruthless bullies, out to destroy me for no logical reason that I could fathom, other than that I tend to be an uppity female. Some of their behaviour was very under-handed, too, which is another negative Plutonian trait. And I had hard evidence of their actions.

Things really turned around when I realized that I am all of the planets in my chart. There's no one else out there.

When Pluto semi-squared my sun more recently, I had some comparatively minor episodes of this nature, although interestingly, they more involved my husband than myself.

Interestingly, when I once was able to have a rational discussion with a Plutonian-type of co-worker about his doings, he confessed that he saw me as able to destroy a program that he was attempting to build in his career. He saw his actions as self-protection. An uppity woman can seem very threatening to more traditionally-minded men-- and women-- even when she means them no harm.

(I have Uranus conjunct MC trine sun conjunct Mars, incidentally.)

I can't say I have a "dominate or be dominated" mentality, which I think is common of sun square Pluto. I do have a perfect dread of losing my identity (Aquarian sun) to the kind of big alpha male who drains the oxygen out of the room for everyone else.

I have a question about this "ownership" and "disownership" and everything.

Is there actually any reason for one to reconcile with a father who has told you that they totally understood school shooters and may have done what they had done to you, as you are the "bully," and has told you that they wished you had never been born?

Is there not a certain point where rationalizing that you are the the cause is pointless?

I am not trying to put words in your mouth or be disrespectful or anything. I'm just curious as to what you would think of this situation. I have thought for the longest time that I and I alone am the cause of all my problems and those of the people around me, but I am beginning to think that that might not be true. It's still appealing to think that I was the cause of the way parents and bosses treated me, though.

 

[Stubborn Virgo]

Thanks for the clarification, waybread. That makes a lot more sense.

 

[R4VEN]

Is there actually any reason for one to reconcile with a father who has told you that they totally understood school shooters and may have done what they had done to you, as you are the "bully," and has told you that they wished you had never been born?

Is there not a certain point where rationalizing that you are the the cause is pointless?

Having not seen your chart I am only whistling in the wind here, as well as generalising massively, BUT -

About the issue with your father, I am of the belief that healing it with your father is all about you, and whether you wish to ever see him again is immaterial. The finishing with him/healing your relationship only comes when what he has said and done, and the kind of person he is not longer bothers you. You have no need to even speak to him again if that is your preference. When you are no longer angry with him, ashamed of him, annoyed with him - and it is highly likely that this will happen one day - then you are free to let him go and be how he wishes to be.
My 38-yr old son has not spoken to his own father for over 8 years, and that looks unlikely to change any time soon. He is `healing' this rift by being the kind of father to his own son that he'd needed his father to be to him. I have no issue with that, chiefly because as his mother it is not about me, and so not mine to comment on.

"Is there not a certain point where rationalizing that you are the the cause is pointless?"
And graay ghost, there is a big difference between rationalising that you are the cause, and acknowledging that what upsets you about someone else is a characteristic which you yourself have hidden away somewhere, unseen and unacknowledged by you. We are talking about the Shadow Self here, and Pluto describes the shadow in us all. The first time I heard of this idea that what we don't like in others is what we have in ourselves my reaction was very similar to your own. This is not about rationalising anything. It is about being absolutely honest with yourself, and to do that, the rational mind is not terribly useful.

And now a quote from Buddha which says all this far better than I can:

Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

 

[waybread]

Graay ghost, sun-Pluto aspects often indicate a dysfunctional relationship with the father. Some fathers are hurtful people.

I think R4ven has given you some good advice. You may never forgive your father for his cruelty. But you can live the best life you know how to live, regardless.

Sometimes I think that I am blessed with a poor memory.

 

[graay ghost]

Well here's the thing, too. All my life I've also been told that I am exactly like him. Maybe we look alike. We probably do. But being told that you are exactly like your abuser for more than twenty years? I think that can have a pretty profound affect on people. I mean, it's certainly had a pretty profound affect on me. I've stuffed down desires for affection or attention, complaints, I had already decided that I would never get married or have long-term romantic relationships because seeing what happened in my parent's marriage play out had to be avoided at all costs. I did not want to hurt people like that. I became extremely avoidant and am hyperaware of my behavior, constantly analysing it for any sign that I might be mean to people, constantly shrinking away and mentally punishing myself for any whiff of bad behavior. Now that I am actually in a relationship I am constantly asking them if my behavior is bothering them or if I'm doing enough for them.

It was only in the past few months that I was able to tell those who were making the comparison that such a comparison bothered me. So yes. Such a comparison bothers me. A lot. Convincing myself that I am not such a toxic, insidious person who will inevitably ruin everyone and everything I come into contact with like my father, that my wants and need are not inherently evil and need to be amputated, has been a long and arduous process and I'd really rather not backslide.

And the thing is that this is not a memory. I mean a lot of it is, but I had a bad enough memory that I thought moving back home after college for a couple years to get myself grounded financially was a good idea. It's only in the past couple months that I've made any decent progress for making the funds to get the hell out of here.

 

[waybread]

Graay ghost, it looks like you are doing your best to work through a difficult childhood/adolescence. Probably the people who compare you to your dad didn't know the real "him" and are speaking only superficially.

Sun-Pluto may not be great at detachment: it's pretty intense as aspects go. But it is a great placement for ongoing self-transformation. Avoiding anything that seems like your parents is as much of a limitation as duplicating their behaviour would be. It's the flip side of the same coin. Freedom comes from choosing what you want out of your own unique personality, without reference to past troubles.

Hopefully this is where astrology can help, as a tool for self-awareness.

 

[teafortwo]

I've had a thread about the Moon Pluto aspects and some very interesting things were written there.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62323

Now it would be interesting to learn something about the Sun-Pluto aspects. I don't have it so I don't know how it works.

I want to ask those who have any major Sun-Pluto aspect, even if it is a positive aspect about its influence. I suppose the relationship with the father and with the father's family is very important and has a great influence on the native.

Probably the father or another person from the father's lineage has something to do with police, military, psychology, the secret service. Most probably, in the lineage of the father, there are events connected with murder, major crimes and other events where some crime or something else was the cause of death or great suffering for the relatives of the native.
Also, the father might have a bad relationship with his family and the family migth be angry with him.

What is your relationship with your father or even with your grandfather (the father of your father) if you have such an aspect? And what was the relationship of your father with his own father?

Was there any manipulation or were there any dominance issues with your father or probably he used to have such problems in his family?

I have Sun at 9*53 Scorpio conjunct Pluto at 9*54 scorpio, so probably the tightest conjunction you can ask for, in the fourth house. My father was a ballet dancer and then became super religious. My father is great (he still makes me food all the time and does my laundry despite me being in my late twenties etc.), but I've always had trouble accepting him as an authoritative figure in my life, we did get into a lot of squabbles because of that. His own father is super laid backand they have a good easy going relationship. Weird.

 

[graay ghost]

Graay ghost, it looks like you are doing your best to work through a difficult childhood/adolescence. Probably the people who compare you to your dad didn't know the real "him" and are speaking only superficially.

You know what, I don't know about that, considering the main offender of this has been married to him for nearly 30 years. I'm guessing it's probably out of some misguided and horribly wrong idea that if two people get into a fight, they are both equally at fault, that there is no such thing as self-defense, and that if you're just "nice" enough all your problems will go away. He has literally said the things mentioned above in front of her and still, she serves him (She has claimed that he would die without her help, but I don't know about that). I have had to point out instances of abuse as they happen and she can maybe understand it for all of two days, and then she goes back to "normal." I have told her that our "differences" are irreconcilable but I am not sure how much of that she really understands.

Now that I've made it known that I do not like the comparison, she tries to use the "you're more mature" excuse to keep me quiet. That I have to be the "bigger man" at all times to someone who is literally a parent and literally 40 years my senior is pretty insane to me.

 

[Kali]

I have the trine. Retrograde Pluto in Virgo in the third, sun in Taurus in the tenth. I am a walking lie detector. I instinctively know how to approach people and what their motivations/dysfunctions are. Sometimes, I can see how the dysfunction came to be. I used to have the most awful fights with my ex over my reactions to people. He's very much a let people prove themselves, for good or bad sort of person, whereas, in my mind, that doesn't apply to anyone having contact with my children. That was as much my fault as his, I didn't feel confident going with the "because I feel it" answer to his "why?" And it would end up with me being a screamy furious mess that he was pushing what I knew in my gut was a mistake (Pluto square a tight Mars/moon conjunction). As an aside, the fight I'm thinking of ended up that the babysitter he was pressured by his boss to use was selling drugs and was later prosecuted and jailed. After many situations where I told him things about people/situations, he started using me to read all his coworkers and work associates. His job moved him around a lot, so every couple of years, I'd have a whole new group to profile for him.

I'm curious how you other Sun/Pluto people appear to others. I'm always told I look intriguing or mysterious or exotic. Wearing a sweatshirt and wellies, I'm told this.

 

[lazarusx]

Pluto Trines my Sun, and in this case it also Trine's my Chiron.

Never had issues with power, ever. I went through my childhood and teenager years without ever experiencing bullying or been the bully, people seemed to respect me just on presence alone. Self-transformation comes quite naturally to me and i have the perspective that every experience in life is a lesson towards greater self-awareness.

However, since T Pluto came into opposition with my Sun.. all those issues of power i never experienced have begun to rear their head, and because it's of the opposition nature i experience it in the form of authority figures at work and i often find myself exerting power over people i consider below me as an unconscious need to control.

I'm curious how you other Sun/Pluto people appear to others. I'm always told I look intriguing or mysterious or exotic. Wearing a sweatshirt and wellies, I'm told this.

I've always been referred to as very zen, passive or reserved. Situations that would upset others don't seem to phase me much, which might be why this description has been attributed to me.

This has infuriated lovers in the past because i come across as apathetic, but the truth is i just don't care for drama, i won't play into it.. because i see right through it.

 

[Stubborn Virgo]

I have the trine. Retrograde Pluto in Virgo in the third, sun in Taurus in the tenth. I am a walking lie detector. I instinctively know how to approach people and what their motivations/dysfunctions are. Sometimes, I can see how the dysfunction came to be. I used to have the most awful fights with my ex over my reactions to people. He's very much a let people prove themselves, for good or bad sort of person, whereas, in my mind, that doesn't apply to anyone having contact with my children. That was as much my fault as his, I didn't feel confident going with the "because I feel it" answer to his "why?" And it would end up with me being a screamy furious mess that he was pushing what I knew in my gut was a mistake (Pluto square a tight Mars/moon conjunction). As an aside, the fight I'm thinking of ended up that the babysitter he was pressured by his boss to use was selling drugs and was later prosecuted and jailed. After many situations where I told him things about people/situations, he started using me to read all his coworkers and work associates. His job moved him around a lot, so every couple of years, I'd have a whole new group to profile for him.

I'm curious how you other Sun/Pluto people appear to others. I'm always told I look intriguing or mysterious or exotic. Wearing a sweatshirt and wellies, I'm told this.

Everything you said here resonates so much with my mom (and me). My mom has Pluto Rx and Uranus Rx in the 3rd house/Virgo. Capricorn Sun in the 6th, Saturn in 8th house, Venus in Scorpio trine Mercury, square Mars & Uranus. Cancer Ascendant. She also has Sun trine Pluto aspect w/1 degree orb. She gets a "gut feeling" about anyone she comes in contact with and pretty much any situation that she's involved in. Very protective of her children and those she views as family. Also a human lie detector. We often watch law/justice/crime TV shows and make a game out of "guessing" which person is lying.

I have a Virgo stellium (Sun/Mercury/Venus) in 8th house, and Pluto in Scorpio/10th house. Aquarius ascendant squared by Pluto. I have the Sun-Pluto sextile. Most of what I said about my mom applies to me as well.

Both me and my mother have intense eyes and dark hair, even though a majority of our family is blonde.

 

[Kali]

Stubborn Virgo, I, too, have Rx Uranus in my 3rd, along with Rx Jupiter, too. I'm curious, has her Pluto gone direct by progression? I have 5 retrogrades and I found that when they went direct, there were significant events pertaining to that planet that year. I'm now waiting for my Mars to go direct. That will be a much anticipated event for me. But with Pluto, I feel like I own that energy in a way I didn't as a young adult. I guess I grew into it, so to speak.

I, too have dark hair and medium olive skin, but my eyes are green. I think it startles people.

For the rest of the group, I wanted to point out that Erin Sullivan holds that we need that exploration of life and death that a Pluto-Sun aspect gives. She states that it is the lack of an exact aspect between the sun and Pluto that causes a greater distress and difficulty for people than an aspect. So squares and oppositions, take heart! It could be worse. ;-)

 

[Stubborn Virgo]

Stubborn Virgo, I, too, have Rx Uranus in my 3rd, along with Rx Jupiter, too. I'm curious, has her Pluto gone direct by progression? I have 5 retrogrades and I found that when they went direct, there were significant events pertaining to that planet that year. I'm now waiting for my Mars to go direct. That will be a much anticipated event for me. But with Pluto, I feel like I own that energy in a way I didn't as a young adult. I guess I grew into it, so to speak.

Not yet! She also has Mars Rx, so that brings her up to 3 planets retrograde. None of hers have went direct by progression yet. Her Neptune (in 5th/Scorpio) is not retrograde in natal, but went retrograde about nine years ago. I specifically remember being quite a pain in the butt that year, but we ultimately ended being a lot closer because of it.

I have 4 planets Rx (Mercury, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) in my natal chart and all of them have went direct by progression. According to Astrodienst, all of them were direct by the time I turned 15.