Self-Deafeatist in the chart

applesandlilacs

Well-known member
Hello everyone,


I wanted to get some insight into where in the chart you might find self-defeatist points. What I do know is that Saturn and Mars will have something to do with it, hard aspects, and maybe 8th or 12th house. What planets, asteroids, aspects, house, and/or signs do you think are involved in this personality trait? Many gratitudes for your time and insight.


Blessings

Amber
 

Marcoilrosso

Well-known member
Usually, it is due to some emphasis (and eventual strain) of fire-water. This is a symbol for extreme feeling (that somehow doesn't always reach the stage of reason). If you intend self-defeatist in the sense of one's undoing by his/her own bare hands, it is some 5th house dysfunction and most likely to present with Jupiter when out of hand. One fellow may positively abuse his/her luck. Then get wearied and brooding, in an habit of worry, so that one becomes self-defeatist through pessimism and unwillingness to act (rather than positively so). These two may obviously, be alternate sides of the same person. Remember that 8th and 12th houses imply more contact with others, and so one may not be responsible for what happens, or at least not in the amount that the term "self-undoing" implies: trouble may come without the subject be willing or asking for it.
Curiously enough, I had found many more cases of harmonic aspects exposing to self-defeat. A contact like the square (more distinctly than the opposition) is more ikely to raise some suspect about the possibility of anything to be won without some sweat or price. If not so, is usually because an involvement of Jupiter (but rather for this planet abused - that for the square itself).
 
Last edited:

sibylline

Well-known member
Do you mind defining what you mean by self-defeatist? I thought you meant more of a pessimistic attitude toward oneself but then I read Marco's reply and it sounds more like self-sabotage via overreaching.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
Saturn rules defeat. So for defeatist attitudes I'd look for Saturn aspects with ASC, Moon or Sun or for a weak Sun (spirit) or weak 1st house.
 

applesandlilacs

Well-known member
Do you mind defining what you mean by self-defeatist? I thought you meant more of a pessimistic attitude toward oneself but then I read Marco's reply and it sounds more like self-sabotage via overreaching.

I'm asking for myself, so I would go the route of fear leads to self-sabotage. I do have this "am I as smart and capable as I think I am" thing going on, I call it the front door complex (you like yourself in the mirror, but leaving your house makes you feel small.) My fear is really internalized, so it's hard to tell why I don't progress from the outside. It can look like laziness.

Thanks again

Amber
 

applesandlilacs

Well-known member
Saturn rules defeat. So for defeatist attitudes I'd look for Saturn aspects with ASC, Moon or Sun or for a weak Sun (spirit) or weak 1st house.

I was thinking that. The more I learn about all these different facets of astrology, the more I understand my chart.

I have Moon conjuncts Saturn(4orb+) and Saturn square Neptune(2.7orb+).
My Saturn is also my last planet in a stellium. Moon and Saturn are in Virgo and Neptune is in Sagittarius.

My first house is Scorpio with Uranus and part of fortune.

My sun is in Virgo.

I have a question: Does one aspect effect another(intensifies or weakens)?

Thanks for the great input.

Amber
 

applesandlilacs

Well-known member
Usually, it is due to some emphasis (and eventual strain) of fire-water. This is a symbol for extreme feeling (that somehow doesn't always reach the stage of reason). If you intend self-defeatist in the sense of one's undoing by his/her own bare hands, it is some 5th house dysfunction and most likely to present with Jupiter when out of hand. One fellow may positively abuse his/her luck. Then get wearied and brooding, in an habit of worry, so that one becomes self-defeatist through pessimism and unwillingness to act (rather than positively so). These two may obviously, be alternate sides of the same person. Remember that 8th and 12th houses imply more contact with others, and so one may not be responsible for what happens, or at least not in the amount that the term "self-undoing" implies: trouble may come without the subject be willing or asking for it.
Curiously enough, I had found many more cases of harmonic aspects exposing to self-defeat. A contact like the square (more distinctly than the opposition) is more ikely to raise some suspect about the possibility of anything to be won without some sweat or price. If not so, is usually because an involvement of Jupiter (but rather for this planet abused - that for the square itself).


I never thought about Jupiter. I'll have to look at mine. I know it has a lot of conjunctions since it is at the center of a stellium. I haven't delved very far in the elements, so I'll have to research that.

Thanks again.

Amber
 

muchacho

Well-known member
I was thinking that. The more I learn about all these different facets of astrology, the more I understand my chart.

I have Moon conjuncts Saturn(4orb+) and Saturn square Neptune(2.7orb+).
My Saturn is also my last planet in a stellium. Moon and Saturn are in Virgo and Neptune is in Sagittarius.

My first house is Scorpio with Uranus and part of fortune.

My sun is in Virgo.

I have a question: Does one aspect effect another(intensifies or weakens)?

Thanks for the great input.

Amber
Post your chart!
 

sibylline

Well-known member
I'm asking for myself, so I would go the route of fear leads to self-sabotage. I do have this "am I as smart and capable as I think I am" thing going on, I call it the front door complex (you like yourself in the mirror, but leaving your house makes you feel small.) My fear is really internalized, so it's hard to tell why I don't progress from the outside. It can look like laziness.

Thanks again

Amber

Okay, in this case (and in your case) it is likely Saturn and Virgo...and you thought you didn't relate to Virgo. :happy:
 

applesandlilacs

Well-known member
As requested. Thanks for taking a look.
 

Attachments

  • Ambernatal.gif
    Ambernatal.gif
    63.3 KB · Views: 46

applesandlilacs

Well-known member
Okay, in this case (and in your case) it is likely Saturn and Virgo...and you thought you didn't relate to Virgo. :happy:

You got me there. :andy: I'm starting to understand the essence of Virgo more everyday. I look at my chart and I see why I would be born with a Virgo Sun, Moon, and Saturn, but instead of balancing out the rest of my chart, they've just run amok. I guess I should just count my blessings that my Chiron is not in Virgo, too.
 

Marcoilrosso

Well-known member
I prefer to be rough-and-ready (rather than have a system): and I use rather stricter orbs than the average. In this way, your only square contact is saturn-neptune. Not exactly the thing appropriate to excite some straight action. Remember that the preponderance of technical 'harmonies' is somewhat an enervating stuff.
What you say is rather implied in the pisces-virgo polarity. It is rather common.
This passage of Uranus that would be perhaps be deemed terrible by interpretation, will instead enforce you to break some habit and be more objectively active.
 

Lin

Well-known member
Moon conj Saturn just taken alone is bad enough.....as the moon represents the "self image" and Saturn represents (in this context) self criticism in the most negative way.
In Virgo is also very negative and seems to represent parents who have a negative dynamic between each other.....
and then
this conjunction squares you Neptune in the house of "valuables" and personal values.

So you have NO way of ascertaining your worth by using your own emotional mechanism as the yardstick.
Also in your childhood you probably could rarely got positive feedback and supportiveness regarding your authentic nature.

So naturally you need lots of "proof" that you are worthwhile.

Often people who work against themselves are either afraid of failure or afraid of success. They are afraid of failing for obvious reasons and afraid of success because they don't know what to do with it....

that is where I would start....the Moon-Saturn conj in the 11th square Neptune.
Also ruler of the ASC in the 12th...weak placement for Pluto....square Mars. But this is very subliminal and you may need to work on this for a while before you can pinpoint incidences in your life when and where you have sabotaged yourself.
Did you quit school?
LIN
 
Last edited:

applesandlilacs

Well-known member
Moon conj Saturn just taken alone is bad enough.....as the moon represents the "self image" and Saturn represents (in this context) self criticism in the most negative way.
In Virgo is also very negative and seems to represent parents who have a negative dynamic between each other.....
and then
this conjunction squares you Neptune in the house of "valuables" and personal values.

So you have NO way of ascertaining your worth by using your own emotional mechanism as the yardstick.
Also in your childhood you probably could rarely got positive feedback and supportiveness regarding your authentic nature.

So naturally you need lots of "proof" that you are worthwhile.

Often people who work against themselves are either afraid of failure or afraid of success. They are afraid of failing for obvious reasons and afraid of success because they don't know what to do with it....

that is where I would start....the Moon-Saturn conj in the 11th square Neptune.
Also ruler of the ASC in the 12th...weak placement for Pluto....square Mars. But this is very subliminal and you may need to work on this for a while before you can pinpoint incidences in your life when and where you have sabotaged yourself.
Did you quit school?
LIN


I'll be honest, I felt a little naked after reading this. It was very accurate. My parents weren't cruel per say, they thought they were doing the right thing. Long story short, My parents were young and didn't know better. I was diagnosed with ADD, so anytime I said, did, thought differently it was because I had ADD. I was never allowed to own my personality since I grew thinking it was a disease. My Grandma was the only that embrace my quirks. I think differently, you can look at my Mercury and know that, and I always have. It can be lonely when the world doesn't understand you. I was loved very much, I was just corrected CONSTANTLY as a child. I read that Moon/Saturn means a strict Mom, but my mom was not strict at all.
I've never quit school, I'm actually in school for a second degree now. I do quit jobs a lot (I'm never great with ****** people in authority).


Well, that felt awkward and cathartic all at the same time.

Question: Is there any aspect that could aid in the resolve of these issues?


Thank you so very much!

Blessings

Amber
 

Lin

Well-known member
WEll I think that knowing the issue did not come from YOU should be your first step in the realization that your authenticity may still be unformed.

Read, "Creative Visualization" ...the book. And if you can get the workbook (also the same name) you can 'get it' faster than trying to find answers on your own.

You need to re-program your inner voice. It is negative and critical.
That book will help you immensely.

There is a right way and a wrong way to read it......the best way is to begin at the first page and not jump ahead....and to do the exercises she advises.
(author's name, "Shakti Gawain" - she probably has a website. But it's that book that is the best place to begin.
You can buy it used....but it will probably be underlined or highlighted by the previous reader.
LIN
PS: and yes, a birth chart reveals a lot of personal information. It's the schematic of the human psyche.
But only by being honest is my information useful.
 
Last edited:
Top