Saturn the Greater Malefic

Osamenor

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks to all of you who are keeping this thread on topic! Reminder to those who forget: this is a traditional astrology topic. I just deleted a post that mentioned Lilith. Not traditional astrology. Take Lilith to the modern area.
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
OH :surprised:...my mistake (I got mixed up with *modern* astrology, I won't do that again) :lol: Saturn in Virgo...what a malefic if the old man planet is in the sign of the maiden. On my natal chart, Saturn conjunct Mars and Jupiter, which will mean a life of difficulty, struggle and disparities with your friends.

An article on people like Chelsea Clinton (born Feb 27, 1980) with this triplicity (same month and year like me, Feb 15th) and their reputation in the public eye or in the world around themselves.
https://www.indastro.com/planet-conjuction/mars-jupiter-saturn-conjunction.html
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
OH :surprised:...my mistake (I got mixed up with *modern* astrology, I won't do that again)
Saturn in Virgo...what a malefic if the old man planet is in the sign of the maiden.
On my natal chart, Saturn conjunct Mars and Jupiter, which will mean
a life of difficulty, struggle and disparities with your friends.
An article on people like Chelsea Clinton (born Feb 27, 1980)
with this triplicity stellium (same month and year like me, Feb 15th).
https://www.indastro.com/planet-conjuction/mars-jupiter-saturn-conjunction.html
keep in mind that traditional astrology has no "stellium" :smile:
i.e.
when more than one planet in same sign
tradtionally that's an ASSEMBLY of planets :smile:
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Saturn opposite sun is a very malefic aspect, whether in tropical or sidereal: Feb 1980 people (like myself with 26' Aquarius sun, but in sidereal, 1' Aqua vs. 29' Leo Saturn) and anyone in late Feb (25' Virgo tropical opposite 8' Pisces sun for example). And Virgo ASC with the Saturn, Mars and Jupiter conjunction is of grave concern, however I fortunately don't have a Virgo ASC on my chart.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
As I mentioned a while back, I'm taking Christopher Warnock's Complete Astrological Magic course, and I've been busy with the homework, so it's all HIS fault that I haven't been on-line for a while! :andy:

Project talk: Astrological talismans :)

“..The tradition of astrological, talismanic images
.. inspired by the collected aesthetics of medieval and classical paintings,
as well as the mysterious pages of ancient compendiums of alchemy and magic

contribution to the living tradition of astrological magic.."




I made a Venus talisman last summer which I shared on this page. I've had more practice, so I'm going to make a Saturn talisman soon. I attach the chart of the election.

Of course, I wanted to take advantage of Saturn being in domicile; in the election chart I managed to get him close to the ascendant on the Day and Hour of Saturn. The Moon does not appear to be afflicted, although it is a bit slow, but hey! At least it's waxing! If anyone sees something that I don't (in terms of reasons to not use this particular election), do let me know, it's always good to have other eyes looking over things like this.

I've been hesitant up to now to make talismans involving the malefics due to the intense energies involved. It's true that in a day chart, where we find Mars tends to give us difficulties with regard to the topics that the house it finds itself in. Same with Saturn in a night chart. And I have a night chart, so I've been hesitant! Yikes!

But then I came across a quote from Marsilio Ficino: , "You certainly should not neglect the power of Saturn...those who give themselves over to with their whole mind to the divine contemplation signified by Saturn himself can escape his negative influence and receive his propitious power. The Chaldeans, Egyptians and Platonists think that by this method one can avoid the malice of fate." Three Books on Life, Bk III, ch 22.

It got me thinking about the celestial order of the planets, of how Saturn is the closest to the Primum Mobile...

Kabalistically, Saturn is the celestial (or Assiatic) manifestation of the Sphere Binah/Understanding and it is here we find the roots for Saturning signifying esoteric and hidden knowledge; the secrets of magic, astrology and alchemy, and this is leaving aside for now his other positive qualities of giving long life, discipline and stability.

Anyway, I just wanted to briefly share what I've been thinking about over these past few weeks. I plan to engrave a magic square on lead for the Saturn talisman, along with various kabbalistic symbols and Names.

Kind regards

Rhys
 

Mad Madam Mimm

Well-known member
As I mentioned a while back, I'm taking Christopher Warnock's Complete Astrological Magic course, and I've been busy with the homework, so it's all HIS fault that I haven't been on-line for a while! :andy:

I made a Venus talisman last summer which I shared on this page. I've had more practice, so I'm going to make a Saturn talisman soon. I attach the chart of the election.

Of course, I wanted to take advantage of Saturn being in domicile; in the election chart I managed to get him close to the ascendant on the Day and Hour of Saturn. The Moon does not appear to be afflicted, although it is a bit slow, but hey! At least it's waxing! If anyone sees something that I don't (in terms of reasons to not use this particular election), do let me know, it's always good to have other eyes looking over things like this.

I've been hesitant up to now to make talismans involving the malefics due to the intense energies involved. It's true that in a day chart, where we find Mars tends to give us difficulties with regard to the topics that the house it finds itself in. Same with Saturn in a night chart. And I have a night chart, so I've been hesitant! Yikes!

But then I came across a quote from Marsilio Ficino: , "You certainly should not neglect the power of Saturn...those who give themselves over to with their whole mind to the divine contemplation signified by Saturn himself can escape his negative influence and receive his propitious power. The Chaldeans, Egyptians and Platonists think that by this method one can avoid the malice of fate." Three Books on Life, Bk III, ch 22.

It got me thinking about the celestial order of the planets, of how Saturn is the closest to the Primum Mobile...

Kabalistically, Saturn is the celestial (or Assiatic) manifestation of the Sphere Binah/Understanding and it is here we find the roots for Saturning signifying esoteric and hidden knowledge; the secrets of magic, astrology and alchemy, and this is leaving aside for now his other positive qualities of giving long life, discipline and stability.

Anyway, I just wanted to briefly share what I've been thinking about over these past few weeks. I plan to engrave a magic square on lead for the Saturn talisman, along with various kabbalistic symbols and Names.

Kind regards

Rhys
I was reading up on esoteric astrology. Just so happened to find an article of Saturn in Libra exalted. You now opened that can of worms just cause I’m more interested in what’s wrong with me, than what’s right and it ain’t much Sir lol
However, I get sick of everybody picking on my poor Saturn, Father Time. The 1-7 ray of harmonics explains this well… it’s also kinda biblical. Saturn told a certain special person I will not let you go… until you bless me. Kinda Vulcan as well. Saturn is the other side of the coin ….
 
I have Saturn in Capricorn, he is not malefic, my ego is. If I put myself in place of my aspirations and real wants, I defy myself, Saturn just bring the objective truth to someone who wishes things would come out of thin air.

And as such astrologers tend to lead with ego, since Mercury is always next to the sun in some way or another.

If I aspire to nothing and want nothing, Saturn won't hurt me at all, life will just change whilst I refuse. I hurt myself.

Saturn also instils that things come in time from hard work. You won;t have the feet nor hands to handle what physical labor requires from the get go, there is pain involved until you develop tougher skin and stamina.

There will be things that hold you back from your peak such as dietary needs, enough sleep, time out for yourself (Solitude) and time to think things through and be receptive.

I am a Sun opposite Saturn Native.

I work 40 hours per week in 4 days, Thursday - Sunday. 3 days off to myself and to develop other parts of me. My body barely feels any effect of it, the mind is very sharp.

 
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Mad Madam Mimm

Well-known member
I just rattled a comment off the top of my head, forgive me if I’m redundant. Now I can’t find it. Anyways, let’s mare if I can pick up where I left off.
I get sooo sick of people picking on My Saturn, AKA Father Time. I get it , nobody likes him. Well, you wouldn’t like it if he was gone either lol… it would be complete lawlessness.

Ahemm anyway, where was I…. Oh yes I was reading up o some esoteric astrology . Found an article that irritated me saying the moon is dead, just a way to hide Vulcan. That’s another issue. Still w me ? I have Add lol I jump around . Just deal.
My point … I came upon an article about l Saturn in Libra, exalted. Now you know I opened up that can of worms so quick, because, this aspect is my chart. I’m only interested in the things that are wrong w me, not w what’s right…it ain’t much Sir lol
Anyway , Saturn is the great taskmaster. Why does nobody wanna do work for their own goodness ? It’s like children, really. They would eat 15 lollipops if you let them, then cry cause they teeth rot out 🤦‍♀️ The harmonic of 1-7 is big here. He is either part of the first ray, or, he is aiding it… it’s almost biblical. I read a passage about him telling a very special person near and dear to his heart…. I Will Not Let You Go , until you send me off with a blessing. Not such a bad guy I think he just needs a hug 🤷‍♀️
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I have Saturn in Capricorn, he is not malefic, my ego is. If I put myself in place of my aspirations and real wants, I defy myself, Saturn just bring the objective truth to someone who wishes things would come out of thin air.
And as such astrologers tend to lead with ego, since Mercury is always next to the sun in some way or another.
If I aspire to nothing and want nothing, Saturn won't hurt me at all, life will just change whilst I refuse. I hurt myself.

Saturn also instils that things come in time from hard work. You won;t have the feet nor hands to handle what physical labor requires from the get go, there is pain involved until you develop tougher skin and stamina.
There will be things that hold you back from your peak such as dietary needs, enough sleep, time out for yourself (Solitude) and time to think things through and be receptive.

I am a Sun opposite Saturn Native.
I work 40 hours per week in 4 days, Thursday - Sunday. 3 days off to myself and to develop other parts of me. My body barely feels any effect of it, the mind is very sharp.

Traditional Saturn is THE GREATER MALEFIC
:)



.
 

Mad Madam Mimm

Well-known member
I have Saturn in Capricorn, he is not malefic, my ego is. If I put myself in place of my aspirations and real wants, I defy myself, Saturn just bring the objective truth to someone who wishes things would come out of thin air.

And as such astrologers tend to lead with ego, since Mercury is always next to the sun in some way or another.

If I aspire to nothing and want nothing, Saturn won't hurt me at all, life will just change whilst I refuse. I hurt myself.

Saturn also instils that things come in time from hard work. You won;t have the feet nor hands to handle what physical labor requires from the get go, there is pain involved until you develop tougher skin and stamina.

There will be things that hold you back from your peak such as dietary needs, enough sleep, time out for yourself (Solitude) and time to think things through and be receptive.

I am a Sun opposite Saturn Native.

I work 40 hours per week in 4 days, Thursday - Sunday. 3 days off to myself and to develop other parts of me. My body barely feels any effect of it, the mind is very sharp.

Hi!!!
Im a grown woman. If I was
Reading this at five years old… I’d probably say, I wanna be like that when I grow up. 🙏
Balance is so good. It’s also difficult for some. I’ve been both.
 

waybread

Staff member
Traditionally Saturn actually has placements that are not so bad. It joys in the 12th house. Presumably in the signs of its domicile ( "chariots") its negative traits are significantly lessened. Saturn in a good house in relationship with a benefic loses some of its punch.
 

Humanitarian

Well-known member
I was reading up on esoteric astrology. Just so happened to find an article of Saturn in Libra exalted. You now opened that can of worms just cause I’m more interested in what’s wrong with me, than what’s right and it ain’t much Sir lol
However, I get sick of everybody picking on my poor Saturn, Father Time. The 1-7 ray of harmonics explains this well… it’s also kinda biblical. Saturn told a certain special person I will not let you go… until you bless me. Kinda Vulcan as well. Saturn is the other side of the coin ….
Saturn is also hierarchically domiciled in Libra too, so my Saturn does have a lot of dignity, and it's the most dignified planet in my chart...
 

Mad Madam Mimm

Well-known member
Saturn is also hierarchically domiciled in Libra too, so my Saturn does have a lot of dignity, and it's the most dignified planet in my chart...
Personally, my dignity depends on the day lol
It can be hard looking back….we can do a lot, with a little. In my humble opinion.

Not always so humble lol… I’m working on it.
 

Mad Madam Mimm

Well-known member
Traditionally Saturn actually has placements that are not so bad. It joys in the 12th house. Presumably in the signs of its domicile ( "chariots") its negative traits are significantly lessened. Saturn in a good house in relationship with a benefic loses some of its punch.
Thank you. Makes perfect sense to me , however to much for my mind today.
if you see a woman outside hugging a tree for dear life , that’s me. I’m fine . Move along lol.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.

The 12th house TRADITIONALLY is a wholly unfortunate house, associated with sad events
sorrow, anguish of mind, tribulation, captivity, imprisonment, persecution, hard labour
& all manner of affliction and self-undoing.
It represents places that are denied access to public view
particularly those concerned with seclusion or isolation
where one is restricted from living a carefree life-style,
such as institutions or prisons.
thus

SATURN the GREATER MALEFIC has Joy in 12th house of ISOLATION & EXCLUSION :)

.
 

DC80

Well-known member
Ahemm anyway, where was I…. Oh yes I was reading up o some esoteric astrology . Found an article that irritated me saying the moon is dead, just a way to hide Vulcan.
Yes, there's just no end to the stupidity out there and imaginary planets are about as stupid as one can get.
My point … I came upon an article about l Saturn in Libra, exalted. Now you know I opened up that can of worms so quick, because, this aspect is my chart. I’m only interested in the things that are wrong w me, not w what’s right…it ain’t much Sir lol

Don't get hung up on exaltations. The entire doctrine is totally fouled. The Chaldeans said the first dexter trine for diurnal stars and the first dexter sextile for nocturnal stars is their exaltations.

Sun's first dexter trine is Aries. Saturn's first dexter trine is Libra. Good so far. Jupiter's first dexter trine is Leo, but that isn't his exaltation. Instead they move Jupiter to Pisces which makes no sense to have a diurnal planet in the 12th place and a feminine place and sign and that would make Scorpio the dexter trine except they use then sinister trine to Cancer.

You can see how messed up that is. If you look at the nocturnal stars, Moon's dexter sextile is Taurus and it is Pisces for Venus so that's good but they use Aries for Mars. You don't want an Aries Mars in a nocturnal chart. You want Mars in Scorpio and the dexter sextile would be Virgo.

The doctrine is Sun exalted at Aries 19°. Why? Maternus says anyone with the Asc at Aries 19° will die in the threshold of life. Is that really where you want the Sun to be?

I don't think so. Is it based on fixed stars? There's nothing at Aries 19°. There's a fixed star at Aries 20° but it isn't a nice star. Which raises another issue because Aries 19° if an empty degree. I ignore that because the full degrees were based on fixed stars being there and the empty degrees were just cold empty space and since those stars have moved on you would have to find the new positions of the fixed stars to determine the full and empty degrees. Who actually uses that? Nobody. Nobody even mentions it in chart readings. Depending on who you read Aries 19° is either a masculine or feminine degree and having Sun exalted in a feminine degree isn't making any sense.

But if Sun is exalted at Aries 19° then Sun is not exalted at Aries 14° but you can see how someone came to believe that Sun in Aries is exalted. The fall/depression/detriment is a nothing-burger. Everyone ignores it in chart readings. There's a guy with an Aquarius Sun and planets in fall and he's emperor of Rome and not just any emperor but one of the good ones so how bad can fall/depression/detriment be? And it isn't only his chart its 1,000s of others that were hugely successful in spite of fall/depression/detriment.

That's all wrong because of bad readings of the texts. There's a difference between Sun in Aquarius and Sun in Aquarius opposing a planet in Leo which is what everyone ignores. Sun frustrates that planet not because he's in Aquarius it's because he's opposing a planet.

Saturn in the 12th place in nocturnal chart or in a feminine sign in a diurnal chart is malefic. Attacked by Mars or Sun makes him that much more malefic. Saturn in the 12th place in a masculine sign makes him neutral at the least but if in an air sign especially Aquarius makes him a benefic. The texts say that. Attacked by Mars or Sun would cause problems for sure, but otherwise he's benefic. Something else the texts say that everyone ignores is that if Venus or Jupiter or both are on the angles the damage Saturn can do from the 12th place is mitigated and if he's neutral or benefic he works that much more better.

Same for Mars. I have a 6th place Aries Mars and I did two tours in Iraq. I'm still here. I still have everything except my wits. Then again I have a diurnal chart and Jupiter on an angle. In a nocturnal chart that would not work well for me. In a nocturnal chart Mars is malefic no matter what because if he's in the 6th place he's with Sun somewhere down there.

And you understand like Jupiter/Saturn always mean the same thing, right? Land leader. That's what I call them. That's true no matter if Jupiter/Saturn are conjunct, sextile, square, trine, or opposing. The meaning doesn't change. What good are the aspects? That tells you the how/what.

Trine, they were probably born into it. Sextile means they'll have to make a little effort, square a lot of effort and opposition a difficult time.

The signs/places tell you what like real estate magnate or merely a property manager or a farmer/rancher/nurseries.
 

waybread

Staff member
It's nice to have such perfect knowledge, DC80. And your humility and acknowledgement of alternative perspectives, in light of your vast erudition, are inspiring.

I think, generally, people who study astrology find out what works for them. Horoscope reading is largely subjective. Evidence for this is that astrologers get good results with various house systems and even zodiacs (sidereal or tropical.) While I believe in basic Principles of Astrology, I'm more concerned with what does or does not work in reading charts for people.

I really try to be informed by traditional astrology and the history of astrology, but they aren't absolutes. The ancients didn't all agree, even back-when. If Mesopotamian astrology worked so well, there would have been no need for the Greek innovations of spherical geometry and the horoscope. And no reason why we wouldn't stick with it today.

Maybe someone would like to work out via the ephemeris at Astrodienst www.astro.com where a specific degree point ca. 500 BC would be located today.

Exaltations were developed by the Babylonians prior to domiciles. Initially they referred to specific degrees, later expanded to signs. Given that the Babylonians initially used a constellational astrology, followed by the invention of signs (ca. 500 BCE) and were siderealists, it's doubtful that those degree points have their specific meanings 2500 years later, due to precession.

UC Berkeley professor Francesca Rochberg has published a lot on Babylonian astrology. See: Rochberg, Francesa, Babylonian Horoscopes pp.46-47. Philadelphia: American Philosophical society, 1998.

One cannot just go by sect. Today it is considered to be a minor accidental dignity. It's there, but not noticeably so.

If Saturn seems more benefic in Aquarius, it's because it is in its traditional domicile. Likewise, Libra is Saturn's sign of exaltation.

Always, always, always, we have to (a) consider the horoscope as a whole, and (b) look at one's life experience-- ideally as unbiased by the native trying to run his/her life out of some astrology beliefs or other.
 

Outlook

Well-known member
personally I use traditional as persuasive and now sidereal because its proving more accurate for events. The two are different because not all ancients based themselves on sidereal.

sidereal takes care of precession which is only a problem with tropical. tropical tends to ignore precession as if it just doesnt exist.

Ptolemy and his group used Tropical…0 aries at spring equinox. Most other ancients used sidereal which is why Indian still uses it. I dont know what Iran uses these days. Would be interesting to learn. sidereal or Vedic ( which includes more technical definition breakdowns) is proven more effective. I havent yet started to use the vedic breakdowns but I am thinking I should.

Saturn to my thinking is not any great malefic. my saturn is very stressed but also supportive as a trine to mars has meant in any emotional event, i search to express the stable outcome. life has been rocky or war like as a result. but I still like saturn. what I think is that the war like events that erupt around me have taught me to detach and not always get involved. I have learnt to observe and walk away.

so its not the planet, the chart, sidereal or vedic, classical, modern, Its the attitude of the person and their level of development that always applies and makes the difference.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.

IF the natural malefics are positively placed in the chart :)
well dignified,
strong in position
& involved in good aspects
their influence may be beneficial rather than afflicting.

also known as '..infortunes..' these are planets that naturally symbolise damage & loss.
Traditionally these are SATURN the '..Greater Malefic..' :)
& Mars, the '..Lesser Malefic..'
Both are extreme in nature:
SATURN being cold and dry

& Mars exceeding in heat.

.
 
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