queriamas814
Well-known member
do you guys think this aspect between two people can really stop any long term potential despite other favorable aspects?
saturn square venus = doom in love?
- Thread starter queriamas814
- Start date
lexia523
Well-known member
im not sure its all doom
I know a lot of marriages have saturn harsh to the others sun or moon, i guess the other person in hope would have it in a easy aspect
Id look for other good saturn placements, whats worse is haveing no saturn aspects.. actually then you prob wouldnt even have a relationship with this person in the first place..
I know a lot of marriages have saturn harsh to the others sun or moon, i guess the other person in hope would have it in a easy aspect
Id look for other good saturn placements, whats worse is haveing no saturn aspects.. actually then you prob wouldnt even have a relationship with this person in the first place..
milkywaygirl
Well-known member
venus square saturn in synastry hints at difficulties of the couple being able to experience uncomplicated affection towards one another; the saturnian person may seem to stifle the affectionate manner of the venusian person (although can work both ways), although with any square, there is the great opportunity to work through the issues at hand to come to a true and unconditional state of expression of affection. to take this further, the stifling may be of any venusian ideals, money, artistic abilities, beauty and the appreciation thereof.
any longterm relationship will inevitably contain saturn contacts as the previous poster mentioned, as saturn gives the relationship stability and longevity.
any longterm relationship will inevitably contain saturn contacts as the previous poster mentioned, as saturn gives the relationship stability and longevity.
milkywaygirl said:
Yeh and yeh. Sometimes it feels like a needle into an sore spot in venus. Venus discovers what she/he truly values and takes personal responsibility for it. It truly connects a person with personally expressing what one holds dear regardless of saturn's seeming abandonment (which can be expressed through something as simple as living in another state, life structure trumping venus's desire for closeness, living in two different worlds then coming together through other, warmer connections).
Sometimes saturn doesn't feel worthy of venus, ie., a difference in status or a fear of receiving love. Good old human warmth and whether mutual admiration arises in spite of it. Venus takes responsibility for her gifts and develops them herself (saturn) while saturn is at a board meeting.
In both cases, such a connection hits you with the poignance of a need for addressing responsibility (and childhood feelings of unworthiness to receive love, early experiences of neglect and not having someone there when you need them) for one's appreciation of 'what is beautiful' . It kinda forces a person to look to oneself to develop that gift (picture mozart creating alone for weeks at a time). For saturn, it could manifest as a certain fear and insecurity when it comes to sharing and just putting an arm around the shoulder of venus. Perhaps saturn learned early on to pull himself up by the bootstraps and that the early hunger for human warmth and support got him a sad sense of isolation, and he may not wish to be vulnerable in that way ever again. For saturn vulnerability is something he steels himself against because of past hurts, needing to learn one can open to venus and love without harm (learning to appreciate and trust).
These aspects very very personally arousing to each. It brings genuine growth and maturity to each in such a partnership.
Look at the other aspects in the comparison charts which give saturn and venus resolution and ease through trines & sextiles & oppositions.
My very best friend (of 21 years and counting) and I have the oppo between her saturn (leo) and my venus (aq). We are separated by life structure, she lives 2000 miles away in california with her husband, I in colorado with my son. We have numerous other contacts that add warmth and being there for the other with unconditionally kind, honest and gentle acceptance.
Go deeper and don't worry.
Kenoshamaensa
Well-known member
I realize this post is a bit old, but I'm very interested in it as the same aspect appears in BOTH the chart of me and my ex- and me and the fellow I'm currently interested in. The chart with the ex- additionally had a square between Venus and Neptune, while the current interest has a Sun-Saturn square (different Saturns, btw, in the new chart, different Venuses in the chart with the ex-).
The marriage with the ex- died a rather slow but painful death, affairs (hello Neptune) on his part, wishful thinking on mine. Not only did the charts in synastry have a (my) Venus-(his) Neptune square, but my natal chart echoed that same square. Not good. With the additional square between my Saturn and his Venus, the end result was a feeling he had of being weighed down by me, and a feeling on my part of being deceived by him. So the really bad sides of both.
With the new fellow, we're both older (and presumably wiser!), BOTH of us have strong Neptune-Venus in our natal charts however (square for me, conj. for him), so I'm very aware of our tendency to idealize, but also to seek a more spiritual union. We WANT to find love that is more than just a meeting of bodies, or even of minds, but of souls. (The ex-, btw, had no Venus-Neptune action in his natal chart, although they did share the same sign [Scorp] and house [5th], a fateful combination for me.)
So I'm aware Neptune is still going to play a role with the current fellow, but it's Saturn that's making me nervous. My Saturn squares his Venus-Neptune. His Saturn squares my Sun. That really can be a wet blanket, although it can also be stabilizing. We have a good number of more positive synastry aspects, however, things I didn't have before, include a Moon-Moon conjunction, mutual Sun-Venus sextiles, mercury sextiles, Mars-Venus trine, and a Sun-Jupiter trine. As far as other "negative" synastry aspects go, the worst is a Sun-Pluto conjunction and a Mars-Mars square (although honestly, I kind think the latter might be a *good* thing as all those easy, flowing aspects wouldn't really go anywhere withOUT a little competitive friction).
So there is more to ease the bad aspects ... but all that squaring Saturn doesn't look good. I'm not sure if it might be a killing amount, or a "rooting" amount to overcome the heavy Neptune-Venus in our natal charts ... not letting us get away with over-idealizing the other.
Thoughts from others with Saturn-Venus squares? (Or Saturn-Sun squares for that matter.)
The marriage with the ex- died a rather slow but painful death, affairs (hello Neptune) on his part, wishful thinking on mine. Not only did the charts in synastry have a (my) Venus-(his) Neptune square, but my natal chart echoed that same square. Not good. With the additional square between my Saturn and his Venus, the end result was a feeling he had of being weighed down by me, and a feeling on my part of being deceived by him. So the really bad sides of both.
With the new fellow, we're both older (and presumably wiser!), BOTH of us have strong Neptune-Venus in our natal charts however (square for me, conj. for him), so I'm very aware of our tendency to idealize, but also to seek a more spiritual union. We WANT to find love that is more than just a meeting of bodies, or even of minds, but of souls. (The ex-, btw, had no Venus-Neptune action in his natal chart, although they did share the same sign [Scorp] and house [5th], a fateful combination for me.)
So I'm aware Neptune is still going to play a role with the current fellow, but it's Saturn that's making me nervous. My Saturn squares his Venus-Neptune. His Saturn squares my Sun. That really can be a wet blanket, although it can also be stabilizing. We have a good number of more positive synastry aspects, however, things I didn't have before, include a Moon-Moon conjunction, mutual Sun-Venus sextiles, mercury sextiles, Mars-Venus trine, and a Sun-Jupiter trine. As far as other "negative" synastry aspects go, the worst is a Sun-Pluto conjunction and a Mars-Mars square (although honestly, I kind think the latter might be a *good* thing as all those easy, flowing aspects wouldn't really go anywhere withOUT a little competitive friction).
So there is more to ease the bad aspects ... but all that squaring Saturn doesn't look good. I'm not sure if it might be a killing amount, or a "rooting" amount to overcome the heavy Neptune-Venus in our natal charts ... not letting us get away with over-idealizing the other.
Thoughts from others with Saturn-Venus squares? (Or Saturn-Sun squares for that matter.)
Venus square Saturn in 0 degrees is what I share with a guy and from experience (and reading Liz Greene's Saturn book), the aspect seems to go 2 ways: either it prevents you from being together (stuff keeps getting in the way, painful) or it derails your relationship into friendship.
The "not getting together" part will be as tough on you as necessary to understand the relationship is not going to have the results hoped for. The higher the hopes , the tougher the blows are ..
The "not getting together" part will be as tough on you as necessary to understand the relationship is not going to have the results hoped for. The higher the hopes , the tougher the blows are ..
Claire19
Well-known member
It is one of the most difficult aspects for sure.......but sometimes it just shows that the relationship wll be practical and realistic or for ulterior motives such as status and sometimes there is an age gap......it is not a romantic placement for sure. One person often feels unlovable and inferior and is not social which is to the detriment of the relationship. The signs they are in and where will give a fuller picture. Sometimes there are financial hardships. It has a karmic component and sometimes an old love has not been dealt with and the timing is wrong. i.e. still married.
Claire19
Well-known member
I agree, reality interferes with love and ultimately it would have been detrimental in ways not foreseen perhaps. Repression, sense of restriction, financial issues and one person being too parental or condescending. I have experienced this and the person concerned has been long time married and has opted for the security of the known and doing the proper thing and concern for his reputation and social standing.and has a sense of duty and loyalty to the partner, who, by the way, is also older and repressive.....He has Moon in Capricorn and Sun Saturn conjunct which adds to this.......it can be that there was a relationship in the past that was not pleasurable and sub consciously the memories are there.Venus square Saturn in 0 degrees is what I share with a guy and from experience (and reading Liz Greene's Saturn book), the aspect seems to go 2 ways: either it prevents you from being together (stuff keeps getting in the way, painful) or it derails your relationship into friendship.
The "not getting together" part will be as tough on you as necessary to understand the relationship is not going to have the results hoped for. The higher the hopes , the tougher the blows are ..
Last edited:
C0rnholio
Well-known member
Crop! My two loves-of-my-life both have hard Venus-Saturn aspects. Both are way too long-distance to be practical, and getting together always required making too many sacrifices. And the reason why these relationships existed at all (mostly only in my mind) was because of the Neptune. In the first case (my first kindergarten's love) Neptune was on our composite's ascendant. And in the second case her Neptune plainly squared my Venus. I tried turning the second relationship into just friendship because I thought then it would have been simpler and just as enjoyable, but Neptune got in the way of that and confused my Venus again. Venus does not want it to be just-friends, wants more.
astrologer50
Banned
Quite possibly, but we are all visual people and need to see charts. It does suggest someone cautious, slow to commit and careful with finances.
Inter aspects between charts suggests the venus person in/over time may well feel unloved and uncherished...
When looking at a woman’s chart the type of man she would look for is her sun sign and mars traits, plus 7th house planets and house cusp ruler and where that ruler was deposited.
When looking at a mans chart for the type of woman he would look for is his venus and moon sign and then 7th house planets and house cusp ruler and where that ruler was deposited.
Although synastry is a valuable tool with astrology it cannot 'make things happen' even if you have the best synastry in the world unfortunately..
If you want to research more into synastry try here
http://cafeastrology.com/astrology_of_relationships.html
http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/interchartaspects.html
http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry_house_overlays.html
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/synastry.html
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/synastry-houses.html
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/synastryaspects.html
http://www.cosmitec-astrological-compatibility-advice.com/astrology-marriage.html
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17513
http://www.astrotheme.com/synastry_advice.php
Unfortunately, there is no set formula or signature for marriage or childbirth, although others may disagree, apparently horary and vedic seem confident in this area. There are indicators and potential as there would be with natal, solar return chart but guarantees -- (post 2 & 3 below)
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=207744#post207744
Your chart is a blueprint of your personality, facets and penchants and the whole chart is 'potential' for development. There is nothing guaranteed or fatalistic in charts, I do believe we still do have free will. I also believe we chose our parents and childhood circumstances best suited to learning those Lessons in the best way we can.
I think it's worth bearing in mind that the natal chart, like solar returns is all about 'potential' but as we all know we don't always fulfil that potential do we.
It's like someone saying you can predict death, but with modern medicine and sciences the way they are and the potential to 'die' three times in a life, doesn't mean to say you will does it
I think lots of people have unrealistic expectations about what astrology can and can't do. astrology is an 'art, science and craft' and not clairvoyance either. If there were a formula or signature, don't you think we would ALL be using it?
Predicting marriage and/or having children can be done, but it is not easy, time consuming and intricate. There are lots of things to take into consideration like, secondary progressions, what inter-aspects one chart makes to another, Solar arcs, Solar returns, Transits etc
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3192
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3179
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14255
Symbolic Directions in Modern Astrology – book by
By Charles E. Carter
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uDv0Xj9YjngC&printsec=frontcover&dq=astrology+Charles+Carter&hl=en&ei=w5HeS7G6DYb2-Aa71Oj_Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Veronica
Well-known member
The People who can somehow, get into a relationship with a venus-saturn challenging aspect must have had quite a lot of positive aspects to make the relationship happen, Some marriages... that last quite long have venus/saturn aspects the conjuction. But even with the conjuction, if can be very hard to get close enough, affection is very stiffled, without any other positive interactions from other planets and transits... the relationship wont happen...
In family charts... specially between parent/children ... you dont see that happiness, and interchange of affection... that you could see in other families, that doesn't mean the saturn person doesn't care, its just not a very warm affectionate relationship... I have a venus/saturn square with my dad, Although my dad wanted the best for me, and has been there for me, I felt many many many... times he wasn't affectionate as I would've it wanted to be and needed it to be... I already have a sun-opposition to Saturn, so I think if you have a person who's saturn is squaring your venus.. you will feel this person activates that sun-saturn natal aspect, or those inadequate awkward feelings..
In family charts... specially between parent/children ... you dont see that happiness, and interchange of affection... that you could see in other families, that doesn't mean the saturn person doesn't care, its just not a very warm affectionate relationship... I have a venus/saturn square with my dad, Although my dad wanted the best for me, and has been there for me, I felt many many many... times he wasn't affectionate as I would've it wanted to be and needed it to be... I already have a sun-opposition to Saturn, so I think if you have a person who's saturn is squaring your venus.. you will feel this person activates that sun-saturn natal aspect, or those inadequate awkward feelings..
Claire19
Well-known member
I agree that without saturn aspects no relationship endures but in my experience despite other very favourable aspects including mutual real love, similar ways of thinking and feeling the Saturn square Venus has prevented a relationship. This is quite painful and I have to comfort myself with the fact that it would not have worked out probably. The enormous cost to several others including ourselves in order to be together would have put great pressure on both of us.
C0rnholio
Well-known member
This is perhaps the stupid Virgo in me talking... but if you put enough work into it (and make the necessary sacrifices), is there a chance of everything working out? Paying a high price often makes the result more desirable. Or should we forget the Ferrari and look for good bargains on a reliable Chevrolet?
Claire19
Well-known member
I really relate to what you say. I have Venus conjunct Neptune natally and and it was my fantasisng and imagining that gave weight to the relationship which was also long distance and really only lived in my mind. Too many sacrifices to be made for us to be together and he withdrew.....I also wanted friendship at least but that was also not to be.
Last edited:
Claire19
Well-known member
I think that if pain to other people is involved then you have weigh up whether it is all worth it. Saturn deals with karma and paying a high price may just be too high. His age was also an issue.......If you are young then you can perhaps deal with it but in my case we were in late midlife and no great passion to carry us along and throw caution to the winds I guess..
C0rnholio
Well-known member
Could someone please tell me that relationships with Venus squaring Saturn never work out and are not worth the price, and also prove this with statistics?
-----
The best Saturn effect on relationships that I have discovered is if it is on the Composite Ascendant. Then it holds the relationship like glue, despite anything else happening in the relationship.
-----
The best Saturn effect on relationships that I have discovered is if it is on the Composite Ascendant. Then it holds the relationship like glue, despite anything else happening in the relationship.
Kenoshamaensa
Well-known member
I posted earlier in this thread, and it's now sorta been "retired," but I want to come back to this thread, because I've been reading through Ronald Davison's book on Synastry (both for his insights on synastry and to learn more about the Davison chart). Good book, btw. I really like it.
But he says, "People often learn more through their mistakes and through the difficulties and discords they meet in life. Hence those areas of discord that exist in personal relationships can be valued for the opportunities they bring us to learn more about ourselves." (p. 46) The paragraph above says, "The most rewarding partnerships, generally speaking, are those where each partner has qualities which complement the qualities of the other, and where each has the ability to draw out the other's latent potentialities."
And here's where the "cookbook" aspect of synastry can be a real problem. Yes, it's good as a starting point, BUT we REALLY have to look at the natal charts of both partners. So is a Venus-Saturn square a sign of DOOM? Well ... it depends, and I think it *especially* depends on the strength of Saturn in the charts of BOTH (not just the Saturn or Venus person). Same with Venus.
So yes, Venus-square-Saturn can be the proverbial "wet blanket." But HOW this plays out seems to vary, and -- again -- I think we have to look at the natals of the two involved to see HOW. Furthermore, the nature of squares is "internal friction" that (at best) can FORCE us to "deal with it." That's why a T-square, or especially a Grand Square, in a natal chart can be both a bugbear AND a catapult to a hugely influential/important life. Churchill had the Grand Square. His life was characterized by conflict, problems ... but also ... hey ... it's CHURCHILL. I could only wish I'd be that successful!
I think (ime) what squares say in synastry is "FRICTION BE HERE" (like "dragons be here"). We will be FORCED to address what the friction represents in three arenas: the planets, the signs, AND the houses (don't forget the houses in synastry!).
But I'd rather a square than an opposition, honestly. In synastry, I think oppositions can be harder to manage. Just my opinion, but there's more of a "cancel each other out" sense, rather than a "annoy you until you address the problem" sense. Squares become easier to handle, the older we are.
And as has been CONTINUALLY pointed out, a chart with NO Saturn aspects is DOOMED far more than a chart with hard Saturn aspects. Saturn just isn't fun to deal with. But the square has an *energy* the sextile and trine just doesn't have. IF managed, it's more dynamic.
So I'm going out on a limb here and saying that a Venus-Saturn square is, first, NOT the kiss of death, but is far easier to handle in one of two cases:
1) Older couples/individuals
2) Couples with natally strong Saturn placements
I've also noticed in my (admittedly limited!) synastry comparisons that those who have Venus-Saturn aspects -- especially the square! -- they tend to pop up in *subsequent* relationships. The universe's way of saying, "DEAL WITH IT ALREADY?" I don't know, but I can personally attest that the ONLY two men I've ever (so far) truly loved ... I had a Venus-Saturn square with both (they were Venus, I was Saturn). One was the partner of my youth, who I got engaged to at 18 (!, no kidding), and the other, the love of my middle-age. The former had a weak natal Saturn overall, mostly adverse aspects if elevated in Aquarius, ruling the 7th cusp (Capricorn) ... but 8th house. Second also has an 8th house Saturn, placed in Cancer (NOT a good placement), but in stronger aspects to (among other things) Mars and Mercury. BOTH had and have aspects of responsibility, the good side of Saturn, as well as aspects of limitation, the bad side of Saturn. But the latter guy seems better able to manage his "Saturn" energy.
And in my chart, Saturn is rising, in Aquarius, 12th house, leading a locomotive chart pattern. Saturn is up there with Mercury as among the stronger planets in my chart by rulership and placement.
Give the rulership of the 7th house for first marriages, and the other aspects to my ex-husband's Saturn and 7th house, you can see (partly) why he married me, and WHY he might be drawn to a Saturnian person, Venus-Saturn square or not. But one can ALSO see why (looking at other synastry) it didn't pan out, even if Saturn DID make it last a loooong time, probably well past when it should (20 years total)!
With the second guy, however, when I look at the *natal* charts, I see a rather interesting involvement with yods and Saturn at the base of Yodal patterns, as well as a lot of different Saturnian energy.
In short, the Venus-Saturn square is *going to work out fundamentally differently*. Why? Guy one has no aspects in his chart between Venus and Saturn. Ergo, he has no NATAL experience in handling that energy. "Two ships that pass in the night." By contrast, Guy two has an quincunx between Venus and Saturn, where Venus (conj. Neptune) is at the head of a YOD, with Saturn at the foot (sextile Mars). In short, his NATAL yod is CATAPULTING him into dealing with Saturnian-Venusian energy!
To make it all the MORE interesting, guess what. We also have a Sun-Saturn square in synastry ... and MY Sun is at the apex of a yod with my Saturn and moon at the root. Double-yod whammy! Furthermore, or moons are conjuct, our Saturns sextile, and our Mars square. So all the planets active in our yods also aspect each other in our synastric charts.
And the "finger" of my yod? A 7th house Libra sun. The "finger" of his yod? A 1st house Sagittarian Venus conjunct Neptune.
What are our combined yods asking? For us to learn to balance "the self" in (ideal) relationship versus "the other." How will we do so?
Well, quite possibly *through each other*. Add to that, we have a Venus-Chiron trine, plus a whole HOST of really *helpful* aspects beyond just a mutual moon conjunction. Things the synastric chart with the ex- didn't have at all. That chart had more "obvious" things, but less "supportive" things, if that makes sense.
Now, NONE of this is any guarantee that our relationship will go anywhere,romantically. It hasn't yet. We're very good friends, and our "healing" may wind up going no further than that. One aspect I had with the ex- that I DON'T have with the new guy (thankfully) is a Venus-Neptune square. I think that Neptune square helped to obscure the Saturn square, especially as we were much younger.
But Saturn can also *delay*, as well as deny. "Father of Time." Saturn tests our resolve. And sometimes it's hard to know which of those it'll be, before the fact. Charts are POTENTIAL, not fate.
We'll have to see where it goes. BUT in this case, I think that a combination of several things could, potentially, make the Venus-Saturn square into a strength, not certain doom. But that is also *not certain*.
So what could overcome it?
--Older persons with strong (positive) Saturnian qualities who must, nonetheless, LEARN (square's lesson) how to manage the conflict of responsibility versus desire/personal needs/relationships. (There are a lot of other aspects in this, including strong Uranuses for both of us, that I won't go into ... but it boils down to a need for emotional stability, personal responsibility, Libra sun desire for companionship, all conflicting with Uranian need for freedom and the fiery Sagittarian Venus combined with a Leo Venus ... both fire, but mutable versus fixed. Not to mention my LOADED 7th house. In short, I need relationships more than he does.)
--The plethora of *affectional* aspects like the mutual Sun-Venus sextiles, and the Moon (emotional) conjunctions, the mutual Mercury sextiles, the Sun-Jupinter trine ... indicating an unusual amount of mutual affection, boyant optimism, emotional empathy, and good communication. All that helps to offset the Saturn friction.
--In composite (which isn't synastry, but has to be examined), Saturn AGAIN plays a high role conjunct Moon in her natal house (4th), which can be a "killer" or a "stabilizer". Loose conjunction (I allow smaller orbs in BOTH synastry and composite) ... combined to an exceptionally tight Sun-Venus conjunction (virtually atop each other), in slightly looser conjunction to Mercury ... confluence of self/affection/communication. Also a Jupiter/N.Node conjunction assists, but is challenged by an opposition to Uranus and Pluto. So there are good things and bad things in the composite, too.
ALL this has to be looked at. Is Venus-Saturn a killer? Well, it held together a marriage for 20 years that probably should never have happened (with some help from Venus-Neptune). That's the power of Saturn, folks. Stable, but cooling. In the end, BOTH of us, not just him, felt our emotions "stiffled" by the other.
In the new relationship, it's delayed any onset of a relationship, and might "deny" it entirely ... but if the problems can be addressed, the "square" energy learned from and successfully managed, then with all those positive synastry aspects, Venus-Saturn might be the bedrock necessary.
(Oops, forgot to attach the three natal charts ... mine is in my sig, but the new guy is chart #1 below. I HAVE uploaded my ex-husband's, but for whatever reason, image shack won't give me a valid URL to attach for this new image. Not sure why. I'm using the same procedure. But my apologize, as I know it's hard to "visualize" a chart one can't look at!)
But he says, "People often learn more through their mistakes and through the difficulties and discords they meet in life. Hence those areas of discord that exist in personal relationships can be valued for the opportunities they bring us to learn more about ourselves." (p. 46) The paragraph above says, "The most rewarding partnerships, generally speaking, are those where each partner has qualities which complement the qualities of the other, and where each has the ability to draw out the other's latent potentialities."
And here's where the "cookbook" aspect of synastry can be a real problem. Yes, it's good as a starting point, BUT we REALLY have to look at the natal charts of both partners. So is a Venus-Saturn square a sign of DOOM? Well ... it depends, and I think it *especially* depends on the strength of Saturn in the charts of BOTH (not just the Saturn or Venus person). Same with Venus.
So yes, Venus-square-Saturn can be the proverbial "wet blanket." But HOW this plays out seems to vary, and -- again -- I think we have to look at the natals of the two involved to see HOW. Furthermore, the nature of squares is "internal friction" that (at best) can FORCE us to "deal with it." That's why a T-square, or especially a Grand Square, in a natal chart can be both a bugbear AND a catapult to a hugely influential/important life. Churchill had the Grand Square. His life was characterized by conflict, problems ... but also ... hey ... it's CHURCHILL. I could only wish I'd be that successful!
I think (ime) what squares say in synastry is "FRICTION BE HERE" (like "dragons be here"). We will be FORCED to address what the friction represents in three arenas: the planets, the signs, AND the houses (don't forget the houses in synastry!).
But I'd rather a square than an opposition, honestly. In synastry, I think oppositions can be harder to manage. Just my opinion, but there's more of a "cancel each other out" sense, rather than a "annoy you until you address the problem" sense. Squares become easier to handle, the older we are.
And as has been CONTINUALLY pointed out, a chart with NO Saturn aspects is DOOMED far more than a chart with hard Saturn aspects. Saturn just isn't fun to deal with. But the square has an *energy* the sextile and trine just doesn't have. IF managed, it's more dynamic.
So I'm going out on a limb here and saying that a Venus-Saturn square is, first, NOT the kiss of death, but is far easier to handle in one of two cases:
1) Older couples/individuals
2) Couples with natally strong Saturn placements
I've also noticed in my (admittedly limited!) synastry comparisons that those who have Venus-Saturn aspects -- especially the square! -- they tend to pop up in *subsequent* relationships. The universe's way of saying, "DEAL WITH IT ALREADY?" I don't know, but I can personally attest that the ONLY two men I've ever (so far) truly loved ... I had a Venus-Saturn square with both (they were Venus, I was Saturn). One was the partner of my youth, who I got engaged to at 18 (!, no kidding), and the other, the love of my middle-age. The former had a weak natal Saturn overall, mostly adverse aspects if elevated in Aquarius, ruling the 7th cusp (Capricorn) ... but 8th house. Second also has an 8th house Saturn, placed in Cancer (NOT a good placement), but in stronger aspects to (among other things) Mars and Mercury. BOTH had and have aspects of responsibility, the good side of Saturn, as well as aspects of limitation, the bad side of Saturn. But the latter guy seems better able to manage his "Saturn" energy.
And in my chart, Saturn is rising, in Aquarius, 12th house, leading a locomotive chart pattern. Saturn is up there with Mercury as among the stronger planets in my chart by rulership and placement.
Give the rulership of the 7th house for first marriages, and the other aspects to my ex-husband's Saturn and 7th house, you can see (partly) why he married me, and WHY he might be drawn to a Saturnian person, Venus-Saturn square or not. But one can ALSO see why (looking at other synastry) it didn't pan out, even if Saturn DID make it last a loooong time, probably well past when it should (20 years total)!
With the second guy, however, when I look at the *natal* charts, I see a rather interesting involvement with yods and Saturn at the base of Yodal patterns, as well as a lot of different Saturnian energy.
In short, the Venus-Saturn square is *going to work out fundamentally differently*. Why? Guy one has no aspects in his chart between Venus and Saturn. Ergo, he has no NATAL experience in handling that energy. "Two ships that pass in the night." By contrast, Guy two has an quincunx between Venus and Saturn, where Venus (conj. Neptune) is at the head of a YOD, with Saturn at the foot (sextile Mars). In short, his NATAL yod is CATAPULTING him into dealing with Saturnian-Venusian energy!
To make it all the MORE interesting, guess what. We also have a Sun-Saturn square in synastry ... and MY Sun is at the apex of a yod with my Saturn and moon at the root. Double-yod whammy! Furthermore, or moons are conjuct, our Saturns sextile, and our Mars square. So all the planets active in our yods also aspect each other in our synastric charts.
And the "finger" of my yod? A 7th house Libra sun. The "finger" of his yod? A 1st house Sagittarian Venus conjunct Neptune.
What are our combined yods asking? For us to learn to balance "the self" in (ideal) relationship versus "the other." How will we do so?
Well, quite possibly *through each other*. Add to that, we have a Venus-Chiron trine, plus a whole HOST of really *helpful* aspects beyond just a mutual moon conjunction. Things the synastric chart with the ex- didn't have at all. That chart had more "obvious" things, but less "supportive" things, if that makes sense.
Now, NONE of this is any guarantee that our relationship will go anywhere,romantically. It hasn't yet. We're very good friends, and our "healing" may wind up going no further than that. One aspect I had with the ex- that I DON'T have with the new guy (thankfully) is a Venus-Neptune square. I think that Neptune square helped to obscure the Saturn square, especially as we were much younger.
But Saturn can also *delay*, as well as deny. "Father of Time." Saturn tests our resolve. And sometimes it's hard to know which of those it'll be, before the fact. Charts are POTENTIAL, not fate.
We'll have to see where it goes. BUT in this case, I think that a combination of several things could, potentially, make the Venus-Saturn square into a strength, not certain doom. But that is also *not certain*.
So what could overcome it?
--Older persons with strong (positive) Saturnian qualities who must, nonetheless, LEARN (square's lesson) how to manage the conflict of responsibility versus desire/personal needs/relationships. (There are a lot of other aspects in this, including strong Uranuses for both of us, that I won't go into ... but it boils down to a need for emotional stability, personal responsibility, Libra sun desire for companionship, all conflicting with Uranian need for freedom and the fiery Sagittarian Venus combined with a Leo Venus ... both fire, but mutable versus fixed. Not to mention my LOADED 7th house. In short, I need relationships more than he does.)
--The plethora of *affectional* aspects like the mutual Sun-Venus sextiles, and the Moon (emotional) conjunctions, the mutual Mercury sextiles, the Sun-Jupinter trine ... indicating an unusual amount of mutual affection, boyant optimism, emotional empathy, and good communication. All that helps to offset the Saturn friction.
--In composite (which isn't synastry, but has to be examined), Saturn AGAIN plays a high role conjunct Moon in her natal house (4th), which can be a "killer" or a "stabilizer". Loose conjunction (I allow smaller orbs in BOTH synastry and composite) ... combined to an exceptionally tight Sun-Venus conjunction (virtually atop each other), in slightly looser conjunction to Mercury ... confluence of self/affection/communication. Also a Jupiter/N.Node conjunction assists, but is challenged by an opposition to Uranus and Pluto. So there are good things and bad things in the composite, too.
ALL this has to be looked at. Is Venus-Saturn a killer? Well, it held together a marriage for 20 years that probably should never have happened (with some help from Venus-Neptune). That's the power of Saturn, folks. Stable, but cooling. In the end, BOTH of us, not just him, felt our emotions "stiffled" by the other.
In the new relationship, it's delayed any onset of a relationship, and might "deny" it entirely ... but if the problems can be addressed, the "square" energy learned from and successfully managed, then with all those positive synastry aspects, Venus-Saturn might be the bedrock necessary.
(Oops, forgot to attach the three natal charts ... mine is in my sig, but the new guy is chart #1 below. I HAVE uploaded my ex-husband's, but for whatever reason, image shack won't give me a valid URL to attach for this new image. Not sure why. I'm using the same procedure. But my apologize, as I know it's hard to "visualize" a chart one can't look at!)
Attachments
Last edited: