Saturn confusion
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Frisiangal
Well-known member
Maybe it's not so much the author but the reader?????
With many written posts, you should have a decent knowledge of the how, what, where and and why astrological symbolism can be interpetted in the manner it is.
Capricorn on M.C.? Where and how is Saturn situated? Is the person prepared to use the discipline and do the hard work that Saturn demands to reach the pinnacle of success, or, are only the hurdles Saturn places on the way as stumbling blocks to overcome visible to the naked eye?
Real life example:
In another Saturn thread and in another context, I mentioned my 5-foot nothing daughter. She has Capricorn on M.C., with Saturn in only square aspects in her chart.
In the field of her career she has always worked in the building trade sector ....bricks and mortar stuff...very Capricorn. In Saturn mode, she has worked her way up, beginning as a college work experience trainee making coffee for 'those in positions of authority'. On the way she studied further and qualified, which Saturn appreciates. She has also known the fall backwards when being made redundant after almost 14 years (Saturn cycle... tr. Saturn through 10th house!) whilst being
married and having 3 children. Really a test of Saturn's strength in perseverence and determination. Becoming a stay-at-home mum (Cancer I.C.) would have been so much easier.
She had her setback, she could have crumbled and been crushed under the weight of Saturn's burden. She chose to knuckle under its grindstone instead and move on, however slowly. She made one proviso for herself. She had learnt from past experience (Saturn). She would no longer allow anyone to walk over her and/or take recognition for that which she had accomplished.
She is now in 'a position of authority' herself, running a dept. successfully during a period in which the building sector seems to have stagnated and is at its lowest. She has won the respect of her male directors and managers, which I think very Saturn considering Capricorn IS a feminine sign.
Not bad for a five foot nothing, is it?
Maybe her experience can give you another idea of how Saturn works?
M
may28gemini
When Saturn is in 10th, it doesn't make a person "fail" but it may take a lot of time and hard work to achieve "success." It may also indicate success being felt in the individual's later years.
charmvirgo
Well-known member
A really good and well written post frisiangal about the meaning of Saturn and I agree with every word.
(But I hope you don't mind if I just pick up on this one small observation: Saturn is a male planet and rules two male signs - Capricorn is the passive side of Saturn and Aquarius is the active side, but Capricorn is not feminine just because it is a passive sign. In the same way, female planet Venus rules both active sign Libra and passive sign Taurus, but Libra is not male just because it is an active sign. Signs alternate active and passive around the wheel rather than male and female. Also some signs are neutral which can still be active and passive like neutral planet Mercury with active side through Gemini and passive side through Virgo.)
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Vista
Well-known member
Nice analogy! As someone who has Capricorn on the Midheaven, I can attest to much of what you have written. My career has had many years of great success followed by sudden losses and reversals. Each time I pick myself up and start again although this last time was the worst time ever in my life and I still haven't recovered. T Pluto moving Over my MC starting in 2009 made sure of this and pointed to transformation which I denied kicking and screaming. So instead, Pluto did not give me a choice any longer and wiped my career out for me. Pluto does that, gets rid of something that no longer serves a pupose and throws it away never to be seen again. As mentioned, one must take Saturn's placement into consideration. Mine is in Aquarius in the 11th house of hopes and wishes. So there it is, my hopes and wishes have always been delayed in some way but yet the turtle usually won the race one step at a time. And I agree, as Moon in Cancer in the 4th opposite Sun in Cap in the 10th, it would have been so much easier to be at home as a wife and mother but fate never allowed that to happen so I chose the other direction which created a lack of balance in my life.
Maybe it's not so much the author but the reader?????
With many written posts, you should have a decent knowledge of the how, what, where and and why astrological symbolism can be interpetted in the manner it is.
Capricorn on M.C.? Where and how is Saturn situated? Is the person prepared to use the discipline and do the hard work that Saturn demands to reach the pinnacle of success, or, are only the hurdles Saturn places on the way as stumbling blocks to overcome visible to the naked eye?
Real life example:
In another Saturn thread and in another context, I mentioned my 5-foot nothing daughter. She has Capricorn on M.C., with Saturn in only square aspects in her chart.
In the field of her career she has always worked in the building trade sector ....bricks and mortar stuff...very Capricorn. In Saturn mode, she has worked her way up, beginning as a college work experience trainee making coffee for 'those in positions of authority'. On the way she studied further and qualified, which Saturn appreciates. She has also known the fall backwards when being made redundant after almost 14 years (Saturn cycle... tr. Saturn through 10th house!) whilst being
married and having 3 children. Really a test of Saturn's strength in perseverence and determination. Becoming a stay-at-home mum (Cancer I.C.) would have been so much easier.
She had her setback, she could have crumbled and been crushed under the weight of Saturn's burden. She chose to knuckle under its grindstone instead and move on, however slowly. She made one proviso for herself. She had learnt from past experience (Saturn). She would no longer allow anyone to walk over her and/or take recognition for that which she had accomplished.
She is now in 'a position of authority' herself, running a dept. successfully during a period in which the building sector seems to have stagnated and is at its lowest. She has won the respect of her male directors and managers, which I think very Saturn considering Capricorn IS a feminine sign.
Not bad for a five foot nothing, is it?
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Claire19
Well-known member
Saturn may rule Capricorn in the natural chart but not the individuals unless they have Aries rising. Saturn is much more than failure and wont be that unless it is baldly aspected. It is the planet of karma and where we have to get real and be mature. It is the planet of patience, overcoming obstacles and reward for hard work. Well aspected it indicated loyalty, endurance and being law abiding.
Frisiangal
Well-known member
( I hope you don't mind if I just pick up on this one small observation
Not at all; different perspectives add more scope.
In my own defence, remember that I am becoming an astrological dinosaur.
When I began learning astrology the words active/passive, yin/yang were not part of the astro. literature. I was brought up astrologically with masculine/positive and feminine/negative signs, beginning alternately with Aries/Masculine and ending with Pisces/feminine. The same applied to houses; e.g. the 6th was a feminine/negative house, the 11th was a masculine/positive house. Over the years I have come to think in terms of active/passive to replace positive/negative, yet I still have the masculine/feminine quirk.
I grant you; astrological concepts are changing. As I think of the different trends in astrology that are finding their way to the surface in modern living, in comparison to the traditional and/or older teachings/
methods, the descriptive terminology used is changing with them. Simple words like circumstances instead of event, or potential instead of fate, as well as your own descriptions of the signs, provide an entirely different perspective of, and to, astrology that will fit the minds of the generation(s) learning/teaching it.
So, please forgive the old dog having such difficulty in learning the new tricks.
And now a confession
Vista wrote:
On reading this, a penny dropped and I 'saw' my daughter's chart before me, with tr. Pluto in her 4th house!!!!
She's only 36, so how could she have had transit Saturn in 10th Capricorn as I wrote?
I remember so vividly what she went through when transit Saturn was in her 10th house that I 'misread' the sign, literally, taking it for Capricorn on M.C.
That will teach me to use the Mercury retrograde in Taurus I was born with, and TO CONSTANTLY CHECK the facts before saying anything, before transitin 9th prompts me to offer an opinion.
Her own story is the result of transit Saturn from 10th through 2nd, with transit Pluto crossing I.C. in a triple pass from 2008-10.
My apologies to Emma forthis mistaken assumption, although I still strongly believe that Saturn means well and can act as described when functioning for Capricorn M.C.
As Vista commented, could your own confusion arise as a result of transit Pluto crossing your M.C. and entering your 10th house?
Capricorn is a female sign (fruitful) and I attribute Uranus as the ruler of Aquarius (male).
Before Uranus was discovered Saturn served as ruler over both.
Saturn can YES be both a symbol of success or overreaching and subsequent failure.
Saturn represents necessity and personal evolution. It is the great structurer. It's the builder of foundations.
It doesn't care if it inconveniences you. It is the eternal teacher. If you learn from it early, you will have fewer repercussions from reversals later.
The aspects to and from Saturn are vital. If it is angular it will be a co-ruler in your chart (unless it is in the sign on the next cusp ...i.e. 11th, 2nd, 5th, 8th.)
Of all the outer planets, it is really vital to learn as much about Saturn as possible.
Also, Neptune.
These planets are never dormant (unless there are NO aspects to or from Neptune in the natal.)
And the more aspects to them, the more they affect your life.
LIN
Before Uranus was discovered Saturn served as ruler over both.
Saturn can YES be both a symbol of success or overreaching and subsequent failure.
Saturn represents necessity and personal evolution. It is the great structurer. It's the builder of foundations.
It doesn't care if it inconveniences you. It is the eternal teacher. If you learn from it early, you will have fewer repercussions from reversals later.
The aspects to and from Saturn are vital. If it is angular it will be a co-ruler in your chart (unless it is in the sign on the next cusp ...i.e. 11th, 2nd, 5th, 8th.)
Of all the outer planets, it is really vital to learn as much about Saturn as possible.
Also, Neptune.
These planets are never dormant (unless there are NO aspects to or from Neptune in the natal.)
And the more aspects to them, the more they affect your life.
LIN
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Moog
Well-known member
The 10th house and the 4th house describe the parents. Liz Green says that very often the 10th house describes the mother. If you have Caricorn or Saturn in the 10th house your mother might be controlling, domineering, a person that doesn't show her feelings and everything that Saturn could be. And the person with this position in the chart might be very ambitious because the mother wants him/her to be like that. If the mother wants success in her life but can't achieve it, she will expext her child to achieve it instead of her. And the child will, to some degree unconsciously, try to be successful in order to do what his/her mother couldn't.
M
may28gemini
I have Libra Saturn exactly on my AC (in 1st house) and so it exactly squares my Cancer MC (and Capricorn IC, too). Saturn in my chart is really powerful as it aspects everything in my chart. However, I don't agree with the bad reputation Saturn has received.
Despite what others say about Saturn or what traditional attributes are assigned to Saturn, I don't think Saturn has "delayed" my being/personality or made me a "loser" in any sense. If anything, I think Saturn blessed me into maturing faster so I end up ahead of the curve. Just because I am not a flamboyant or aggressive doesn't mean I am doubtful of myself or lack confidence (common misconception about Saturn on the AC/in 1st house). By all accounts, I'm sober and realistic and as hard for it to believe being that I am a Gemini Sun, people do find me to be a solid, reliable person. Saturn gave me a spine. I don't fall under peer pressure and I'm not swayed by emotions. I've been this way since I was a small child and as I get older, my Saturnine energy have a stronger and more meaningful foundation.
Despite what others say about Saturn or what traditional attributes are assigned to Saturn, I don't think Saturn has "delayed" my being/personality or made me a "loser" in any sense. If anything, I think Saturn blessed me into maturing faster so I end up ahead of the curve. Just because I am not a flamboyant or aggressive doesn't mean I am doubtful of myself or lack confidence (common misconception about Saturn on the AC/in 1st house). By all accounts, I'm sober and realistic and as hard for it to believe being that I am a Gemini Sun, people do find me to be a solid, reliable person. Saturn gave me a spine. I don't fall under peer pressure and I'm not swayed by emotions. I've been this way since I was a small child and as I get older, my Saturnine energy have a stronger and more meaningful foundation.
Moog
Well-known member
May28Gemini; I think it's much better if we reference our own charts to make them available so others can check and confirm. I checked your profile, and I didn't see it.
Otherwise we're dealing with anecdotes, which are really no good as a learning aid.
I can't tell if your Saturn is actually influencing your 1st house cusp to any great measure or not from your description.
Otherwise we're dealing with anecdotes, which are really no good as a learning aid.
I can't tell if your Saturn is actually influencing your 1st house cusp to any great measure or not from your description.
M
may28gemini
I don't post my chart in my profile or anywhere in the forum because I don't want to show my chart to just anyone, esp. people I don't know nor like.
If you don't believe me in anything I say, that's perfectly fine. It's possible that other people might take what I say into consideration.
If you don't believe me in anything I say, that's perfectly fine. It's possible that other people might take what I say into consideration.
Moog
Well-known member
M
may28gemini
Ok, what does me saying what I say have anything to do with you having to see a chart? I don't say what I say for the benefit of you. And for the record, I don't say what I say so others can "check and confirm" if I read/interpreted my chart correctly or not.
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Moog
Well-known member
What are you saying it for? It's not clear to me.
I assume (rightly or wrongly) that we're all here to learn about and share what we know about astrology.
I find that can happen best when we can all refer to the charts in question.
I don't know you, so I can't know whether you're reading your chart 'correctly' or not. I certainly do things 'differently', and for that reason I prefer being able to look at a chart.
Obviously you don't have to do anything for my benefit if you do not feel so inclined. However, it's not just me here, and we'd all benefit from being able to view charts that are referenced.
M
may28gemini
I've been posting on the forum for quite some time without showing my chart. Not only that, there are plenty of other people who don't show their charts. We're all on here for different reasons. Just because you're on here for one reason or another doesn't mean other people share the same sentiments.
Why you chose to put me on the spot by telling me to show my chart now is really off-putting. If I had wanted to show my chart to illustrate anything, I would have done so.
Why you chose to put me on the spot by telling me to show my chart now is really off-putting. If I had wanted to show my chart to illustrate anything, I would have done so.
Moog
Well-known member
I don't mind people not sharing their personal charts. I do mind when people refer to charts that we can't see.
I have asked others to post charts when they've referred to 'invisible charts'. It bugs me. Not often enough to post (I don't usually have the time). On this occasion, I thought I'd ask.
I will make a point of requesting that people refer to public charts more often, so you feel less picked on (not my intention).
I'm sorry that requesting to see a chart in connection to a statement made makes you feel 'on the spot'.
M
may28gemini
I don't "feel picked on" but I do think you're being really nitpicky about me showing my chart and your way of trying to get information gets expressed in a way that irritates me.