Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrology

Marinka

Well-known member
Are we arguing semantics, Marinka? By "massive amounts of humility" I don't mean abject low self-esteem. Hardly. Should I have said "serious awareness of our own shortcomings"? But let's take the opposite of humility: Hubris. Conceit. Chart reading can be time consuming, but that doesn't justify colossal insensitivity.

Astrologers are fallible people. We need to recognize it and not imagine that we possess the God's eye view.

I have read many of Poyi's posts and agree that she does a super job with people. (Except me, possibly???)


How is it any better when you say "serious awareness of our own shortcomings" rather than "massive amounts of humility". Both statement seem to be degrading the abilities of a student in astrology (IMO).

Your statement "Astrologers are fallible people. We need to recognize it and not imagine that we possess the God's eye view.", is dismissive of the predictive talents of astrologers that have focused in this area. And, I'm not quite sure why there are religious references on a site primarily dedicated to astrology - the two really don't mix well ... oil & water.
 

Marinka

Well-known member
_______________________________________
Marinka

So, the stars "compelled" you to submit your reply? And here I thought you had made the decision to enter your thoughts on your own.

Perhaps if you consider the "stars" as representing the will of a Divine Operating System (OS) like a computer has, and this word processing app that we are using to type our unique thoughts and opinions to each other as the expression our freewill. What we choose to write as an individual is the expression within the parameters of the Divine OS. A chart is simply a snapshot of the OS in time, providing us with insight as to how our individual potential can best be expressed in concert with the Divine OS.

So, I would agree that there is an element of fundamental predetermination within the OS, how it operates and how we function within it... yet we do express personal preference and choice throughout our life experience. Both the Divine OS and our individual freewill work in tandem—when we are in sync, anyway. It is when we as individuals choose to run our own OS and attempt to override the Divine OS that we smack head-on into the difficulties of life. When we are in harmony with the Divine OS life flows along much easier... however, we always have the choice to be agreeable or not and the potential to understand the cause and effect of our freewill.

Do we have anymore agreement now?

I am personally responsible for opinions and views freely expressed in this commentary.
A*L


Very thoughtful reply but, it does not bring us closer to agreement, not that it is necessary (or even preferable) that we agree.

As someone that focuses entirely on prediction, I see that we live our life according to the base that is given within our natal charts and with the building of that base with the transits that occur as we move through life. The choices we make in our decisions is predetermined by who we are and as a result, our path through life is already set by that. It may seem that you are making a decision from free will but, is it really? Isn't that decision based on who you are and what circumstance you find yourself in .... and isn't that shown in the natal chart and transits?

An astrologer may not be able to read an entire life path just because our art has been put to the side and neglected while other sciences have grown.

Someone said it well on this site -- think it was Bob. The example he used was a women that is being abused. That woman is just living out her chart and transits and that would show if she moves past it or is eventually destroyed by it. The same for a serial murderer - it's identified by the chart and the transits made to it.

 

AstroLogical

Well-known member
How is it any better when you say "serious awareness of our own shortcomings" rather than "massive amounts of humility". Both statement seem to be degrading the abilities of a student in astrology (IMO).

Your statement "Astrologers are fallible people. We need to recognize it and not imagine that we possess the God's eye view.", is dismissive of the predictive talents of astrologers that have focused in this area. And, I'm not quite sure why there are religious references on a site primarily dedicated to astrology - the two really don't mix well ... oil & water.

Au! contraire

The predictive talents of astrologers can be over rated... especially by astrologers. BTW - Oil and water do share the same universe, only separating because of gravity. And through the Oneness of All we know and All we don't yet know, both have a place and complement one another. It is only through human ego that we find separation, division and miss realizing the Unity that exists... thus proving ourselves to be quite "fallible."

Religion and astrology; two words but alike in that they are both "belief systems" that attempt to explain our relationship to the universe. If you do not recognize the similarity perhaps personal bias is blocking your view. It is always beneficial to see how things are in fact similar rather than only the apparent differences.

A*L
 

AstroLogical

Well-known member

As someone that focuses entirely on prediction, I see that we live our life according to the base that is given within our natal charts and with the building of that base with the transits that occur as we move through life. The choices we make in our decisions is predetermined by who we are and as a result, our path through life is already set by that. It may seem that you are making a decision from free will but, is it really? Isn't that decision based on who you are and what circumstance you find yourself in .... and isn't that shown in the natal chart and transits?
_____________________________________

Obviously, one can not argue against your point because like mine it is virtually un-provable through debate. Personal insight and experience is the only way one can find out for them self.

Identical twins with only seconds difference in their birth time can have dramatically different outcomes—all the way through life. There will be many core elements that are similar but show me an astrologer who can separate the two and "see" their varied fates. Of course you can say no matter what—it is destined—whether an astrologer is "good enough" to see it or not. Then why bother looking at the future? Knowing the outcome will have no relation to what happens. Prediction in a fated universe is a zero point gain. Might as well kick back and just enjoy the ride. (well, we should be enjoying the ride anyway, however...)

I agree we have a beginning set of potentials and as life unfolds we exploit those potentials or we don't. Survival in it's most primitive sense is a good example of that. Your improvise. You do what you need to survive. That requires real time decision making and an active freewill.

It has been pointed out in the study of mankind that we are unique among animals because we have the ability to take patterns of meaning and reformulate those patterns into new patterns of meaning. That ability is the spark of intelligence and implementation of freewill.

I'll leave it at that. I've enjoyed the exchange. Be well.
A*L
 

waybread

Staff member
Marinka, I see no problem with "massive amounts of humility." It shocks me that anybody would. I am not saying that somehow, in a chart reading, astrologers turn themselves into servile sniveling doormats. (How's that for a mixed metaphor?) This doesn't mean one's inherent self-confidence disappears.

On a good day, I view the natal chart as offering a window on the soul. I question the motives of anyone who sees the chart in materialist* terms. Reading a chart (on a good day) is something I approach with awe. Why? Because in my metaphysics, you get some idea of why this soul incarnated: As astrologer Alice Howell put it, the chart is a temenos, or sacred space. As you explore the chart, you can see what the soul hoped to develop, and the challenges as well as assets it brought to its earth life.

On an average day, I am probably as materialist (*note: as a philosophy not as a focus on material goods) as anyone else. But somewhere in the back of my head I hope I come from recognizing what a huge and awe-inspiring privilege it is to get this kind of a glimpse into another human being.

In my metaphysics, a soul is part of what God is. Namaste! Lit., "I bow to the God in you."

And soooo often we see the opposite. The Joan McEvers book gives many examples of professional astrologers whose utter lack of humility is disgraceful. I can only imagine that their egos feed on the authority they feel over vulnerable people.

Yes, and to second Astrological, if you believe in determinism, there is no point in reading horoscopes for anyone. Que sera, sera. You had no choice in what you just posted. Chunks of rock hurtling through the solar system made you do it.

Ptolemy addressed this question ca. 150 AD. He was a staunch determinist, but he said that the chart usually indicated how someone might mitigate a problem. He gave the example of the doctor. If a patient had an illness and fatalism were absolute, there would be no point in the doctor's treatment.

You know the saying, "When God closes a door, he opens a window." Hopefully astrologers giving unwanted news can assist the natives to see their own windows.
 
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waybread

Staff member
Marinka, basically the chart will "out" in some way. But there are many ways in which that can happen, from a full and empowering expression, to some form of psychological projection or manifesting some really unpleasant potentials.

This gets interesting in synastry, because you have not one but two (or even 3-4) charts to look at. Sometimes people more or less OK on their own become more empowered or more disempowered by their relationship with another person. For example, his Venus may trine her Mars, and his Mars may conjunct her Venus. This is hot stuff in synastry; yet if his Mars and Venus are part of a huge see-saw opposition and her Venus-Mars are part of a T-square, they may aggravate one another's unresolved chart formations.

Question for everyone. If prediction in astrology somehow vanished, would you still practice it? Why or why not?
 

AstroLogical

Well-known member
waybread

I know, I said I was stepping back from this discussion but your last two posts were inspiring, even brilliant. I couldn't agree more. Thank you for lifting me up a notch or two.

A*L
 

poyi

Premium Member
I do care that Paul left our forum due to this endless argument. Astrology can be a belief system like religion and no religion on earth had ever came to any form of major agreement but caused many wars. I do not like to see members splitting into different sides and or leave. I had doubt of being in a forum when senior members not acting in a way to promote astrology or explore knowledge and skills or reading chart for new members or suggesting books for them, instead focusing on theoretical matters.

I do not like members and non members going through the posts and see disharmony argument in this forum. Arguments can bring growth but also can cause many damages. That just how I feel and again the focus here is people just wanted to win the argument. My focus here is to learn astrology and learn how to help people. I had concluded morality is subject matter so I will learn from my daily life and experiences to be more sensitive instead of being here wasting my energy to say what is moral or not moral while I have the practical chance to learn more in real life and as well as interacting with members in humane manners. If I believe myself have compassion to be moral I should take actions to act like one.

People are whom they are written all over their natal chart.

I would like to put my focus on sharpening my skills to be a good astrologer which I had described how that person should be in my subjective visions.

This is my last post on this morality topic once again.
 
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poyi

Premium Member
Excuse me one last thing.

When we consider new members as vulnerable, we should remind ourself senior members are just the same. Be careful with our words and I shall also remind myself, for we have no way of finding out. When I needed to speak of the observations I did and it should be adequate. Anyway my subjective views once again. Agree or disagree it doesn't matter.
 

waybread

Staff member
Trick question ... Astrology is prediction ... without it, there is nothing to practice.

Why would you say so? There is ample, ample evidence in astrology to the contrary. Shall I begin with Hellenistic astrologers (like Vettius Valens) and their genethliacal character delineations?

I suggest that you limit yourself unnecessarily.
 

poyi

Premium Member
I also think the outer planets transit maybe in contact with the forum's natal chart and to some members as well. Although tsmall and JupiterAsc don't use modern outer for other whom use should examine your own chart as these slow moving transit can cause a lot of tension as well as projecting unfavourable energy.

For myself Uranus is at my 8th house cusp and later part of the 4th house with no contact with any natal planets. The only time was last year when Uranus at the antisicon point of my natal Mars when I had the accident Uranus was approaching 8th house cusp. Mars is the natal 8th house ruler and mutual ruler of 3rd/1st house. Right now it is showed as me dealing with the compensation case.
 
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wilsontc

Well-known member
please get back on topic

All,

Please get back on topic. While it is the normal policy of this forum to keep one User ID per person in the interest of preventing ID "spoofing", the site owner has the final say on all matters of who is and is not a member of the Forum and may make exceptions to this rule as they see fit. If you have any questions about this matter of Paul and Mandy's User ID please PM the site owner directly (pwadm).

I have deleted all conversations on this matter as being disruptive of this thread on relationships predicting in astrology.

Back on topic,

Tim

UPDATE: This issue is already being discussed on the "Help" section of the Forum:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45277
 
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Marinka

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinka
Trick question ... Astrology is prediction ... without it, there is nothing to practice.


Why would you say so? There is ample, ample evidence in astrology to the contrary. Shall I begin with Hellenistic astrologers (like Vettius Valens) and their genethliacal character delineations?

I suggest that you limit yourself unnecessarily.


My views are such that I never seriously ponder the past for long and I always fixate on the future.

When someone looks at the natal chart, they are looking at what someone was born with and to use only that for character analysis ignores what the transits do as they move through a person's chart and changes the experiences and builds more into the chart than what was there at birth time.

To only look at a natal chart and delineate just that chart does not take into consideration that much of what is seen may have been worked through as a person moves through life yet, the astrologer could be talking as if this is a problem that will be with a person through life. Could be very damaging to a client.

Even with predictions, I find that I am lacking in the information that the cycles can provide because I have not gone through an entire person's life to determine what else that "pluto" has done as it has moved through a person's chart -- that could be very important. Would also take more than 1 week of time to do a "life reading".

A perfect example of how far-reaching certain events in a person's life are (some threads on this currently) would be children that are abducted early in life and discovered years later.

Your suggestion that I am limiting myself -- hardly. The future is my vista ...

 

waybread

Staff member
Marinka, I am thinking of the sorts of questions we see all the time. "Why am I 40 and still single?" Or "Here's the synastry with my BF: does this look like a good match?"

Note that these are not prediction requests like, "When will I start a permanent relationship?" Or "Will my BF and I get married?" We can look at "why" and "what" questions based entirely on the nativity.

Answers to these question might possibly benefit from a horary reading, a nativity-based time-line and forecast, or crystal ball; but really the natal chart as-is gives you enough to go on. In the case of synastry I look at some key placements involving the sun, moon, Venus, Mars, and perhaps the ascendant of each person; with other factors as indicated by the horoscope placements. I might look at a mid-point composite chart, also with no predictive intent.

An analogy for a birth chart is that it is like a road map. Sometimes you want to know more about the road ahead or behind. But the map is still the same map regardless of your current position on it, and it says a lot about your life journey as-is and throughout.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Well that's the real question, isn't it? With the natal chart (or other radical chart such as for an event/inception, etc) plus progressions (or profections or directions) of that chart, plus transit analyses to the horoscopic points of that chart, and with the additional use of elections, is a specific interrogational methodology (ie, horary) ever really needed?

For me, I would be sorry to do without horary-particularly in astro-medical matters. But it is a legitimate question: a question every practitioner (based upon insight derived from thoughtful experience) will have to answer for themselves.
 

Ayin

Active member
Since I havent been part of this discussion from the start i'm just going to comment on the first post.

In my opinion predicting someone's future when asked has nothing to do with morality. It would be, if said astrologer would push his view upon people that didn't ask for their view on the matter.
I think this has everything to do with the "asker" instead of morals. If said asker wants to know about future circumstances regarding relationships (or death), it will be this persons own responsibility to handle the answer in a healthy manner. My advice to such questions would be: think before you ask.

Now about the way I personally think astrology works: people can predict the circumstances of life by looking at the position of our constellations, they cannot predict what the subject will chose to do with those circumstances. If I would be, say, a very introverted guy and an astrologer tells me july holds great possibility to meet a new lover, that would mean that if I would take just a little more risk by acting a little more spontaneaus I would greatly improve my chances of meeting this potential lover. Would I stay in place, the introvert guy, chances would be less or nil.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
There have been multiple threads closed on our forum
on which the ending of a relationship resulted in possibility of attempted suicide

also

media and newspapers are replete with examples :smile:
of relationships ending in death
a person may have been murdered for example by the person they spurned

or
a person may have committed suicide after being spurned

or
someone in a relationship killed the other person

and so on
so clearly

there ARE ethical considerations
when predicting Horary outcomes

if for example the client could react negatively
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Well that's the real question, isn't it?

With the natal chart (or other radical chart such as for an event/inception, etc) plus progressions (or profections or directions) of that chart, plus transit analyses to the horoscopic points of that chart, and with the additional use of elections, is a specific interrogational methodology (ie, horary) ever really needed?
For me, I would be sorry to do without horary
-particularly in astro-medical matters.
But it is a legitimate question:
a question every practitioner
(based upon insight derived from thoughtful experience)
will have to answer for themselves.
Someone who understands how horary works
realises why is important to give the background story of their question.

Horary is very different from natal
the background provision is not gossip
but is a proviso in order to help the horary practitioner
ASSIGN CORRECT SIGNIFICATORS/RULERS..
The exact nature of the relationship with the Quesited is paramount information
Horary can answer anything AS LONG AS
we approach the chart correctly
BY ESTABLISHING TO BEGIN WITH
that the question is not a frivolous one and is based in relaity
and so

the person asking an horary question
must give a clear background of their question
why they are asking
what their relationship to the other person
and
it is paramount that the reader understands
that these consultations are not professional
because those responding are beginners
with little or no knowledge of astrology
and all too fequently simply invent own rules :smile:

ETHICAL CONSIDERATION INCLUDES
whether the question asked violates the privacy of another
as well as
whether the question is defamatory in nature
such as implying that the questited is a murderer
- a question asked just recently on one of our horary boards!

 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
example with reference to

the morality of the following horary question

And speaking as a moderator: this thread is teetering on the edge of breaking several rules. First of all, rudeness and attacking are NOT allowed; respect of other posters is REQUIRED at all times.
There have been some borderline rude responses
to people who have reasonably pointed out
the problems with using horary for this kind of question.
Furthermore, posting other people's natal charts IS allowed if ONE of the following is true:
you have their explicit permission to do so
(which the OP doesn't appear to)
OR you remove their name and birth information from the chart
and do not share any identifying details.
Since the natal chart posted has been anonymized, and no clearly identifying details have been shared, it meets the forum rules on that count. However, this is the horary section. Natal charts are NOT to be posted here unless there's a clear connection being made between a natal chart and the horary.
And that says nothing about the ethics of posting someone else's natal chart.

It's not fair to ask astrological questions
about someone who's not participating in the conversation
and has not consented to having questions asked about them.

Furthermore, interpreting a birth chart is quite subjective
. Every bit of it has multiple possible manifestations, only some of which will be true of the native.
It's impossible to determine which of the many possible manifestations apply
without the native present to affirm or contradict.
And the chart does NOT show what choices the native has made in their life.
Whether this person has a criminal career
or just a very secretive but perfectly legal one,
the astrological markers would be the same.
highlighting the following:

'....It's not fair to ask astrological questions
about someone who's not participating in the conversation
and has not consented to having questions asked about them...'
Osamenor
I have a few griefs over the question.

1. if the querent is not in direct danger from the quested,
querent is not minding her own business
(later asce usually yields mind your own business)
Primary why I do not wanna answer the question I dont know the intent
or how will the answers be used.
Plus this is 2nd question from the querent

about mafia/murder connection.
Makes you really wonder what is going on.
Quite
2.as you pointed out, natal chart does not "make" a person do this or that.
3. natal chart was posted but it was deleted (I think you guys took it down - good) .. no permission do not post the chart
4. If there is nothing you can personally affect a situation, dont ask.
(i am not talking about you just saying in general.

Lets say he is a mafioso murderer - then what?
tik
good question
and also

It's not fair to ask astrological questions
about someone who's not participating in the conversation
and has not consented to having questions asked about them.
Whether this person has a criminal career
or just a very secretive but perfectly legal one,
the astrological markers would be the same.
in any event the individual has been deprived of their rights
to defend themselves from defamatory inferences
from people whose motives are unknown :smile:
 
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