Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrology

waybread

Staff member
Yes. However, my real love is natal chart interpretation using modern methods.

The trouble with the OP is like so many morality questions that psychologists used to use to use to "grade" people.

Remember this chestnut?

"In Europe, a woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to make. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $ 1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug-for his wife. Should the husband have done that? " (1963) http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

This is so unreal it is almost laughable. We assume that Heinz would be able to put his hands on the drug inside a pharmacy filled with a few hundred different medications. If it were radioactive, even in 1963, it would have been kept in special high-security containment. We assume that the druggist went through his country's equivalent of the US Food and Drug Administration's approval process, which would be required to put a radioactive drug on the shelf-- by prescription only. There is no mention of a doctor's prescription. We assume the druggist had a handy supply of radium-- which is not easy to come by, as it is mined in only a few places on the globe, and can cause radiation sickness when handled improperly. Radiation therapy is not for amateurs like this back-room druggist. We can assume that the container indicated the correct dosage as well as special restrictions on its use. We assume Mrs. Heinz had no health insurance, and so on.

You can't answer this "Kohlberg's dilemma" unless you enter his imaginative-- and might I say-- cuckoo kind of world.

It makes far more sense to use a case study approach based upon actual examples, where one's credulity isn't so strained.

The great majority of my chart reading is done on-line, so this is the universe I address.

I don't do horary astrology (which isn't to say I haven't studied it) for several reasons, including because of the hit-and-run prospects for so many questions, like "Will I get married?" Or "What are my future relationship prospects?"

I am not opposed to giving people news they won't want to hear about relationships. But without a natal chart and/or extensive communication, you have no idea what is really going on through the querent's mind. You can get a much better idea, I think, from a natal chart and some dialogue with the person.

Unfortunately horary can all too often deteriorate into a kind of fortune-telling, that doesn't address the fundamental issues.

We can imagine a 40-year old single woman asking about her natal chart: "Why am I 40 and still single?" Or of a horary chart: "Will I get married?"

It seems to me that with the natal chart and some discussion, you can discuss with her some life-themes that affect her single status. Maybe she is exceptionally reclusive. Maybe she needs her independence. Maybe she's smart enough not to settle for Mr. Wrong. And you can build on these in constructive ways.

With a horary chart on its lonesome, you lack all this opportunity for depth and breadth in actually trying to be helpful to someone. Combining methods, including natal plus horary and a good dialogue, seems to be what the good professionals do. It just adds so much more depth to astrological advising.

I have gotten numerous requests to engage in fortune-telling, and I don't do it. I will say if I see likely or unlikely times for something to happen, or good or not-so-good times to and places to look for Mr. Right.
 
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Paul_

Account Closed
Yes. However, my real love is natal chart interpretation using modern methods.

Great, but modern methods does not preclude prediction either of course, even if the nature of what is predicted changes - often the changes are psychological or 'spiritual' in outlook rather than event driven.

This is so unreal it is almost laughable.

Perhaps, but unlike your example, the OP isn't so unreal it's almost laughable. It happens all the time. It's happening right now on this forum. It happens in real life too. So whilst I understand that we can't address every single thing hypothetically, we can offer our feedback on what we ourselves do or don't do and why. Unless you're saying that you've never been asked a romance question in your capacity as an astrologer, then this situation will also be very real to you too.

It makes far more sense to use a case study approach based upon actual examples, where one's credulity isn't so strained.

Waybread are you suggesting that the issue of morality cannot be commented on one way or another without reference to a case by case example and if so what makes this particular application of morality different from other ones? Obviously people, yourself included, do talk about issues pertaining to morality in general terms and not just case by case.

The great majority of my chart reading is done on-line, so this is the universe I address.

By your choice, my point is that it doesn't make the OP inapt.

I don't do horary astrology (which isn't to say I haven't studied it) for several reasons, including because of the hit-and-run prospects for so many questions, like "Will I get married?" Or "What are my future relationship prospects?"

I appreciate you don't do much horary off line, but imagine instead that you did (if you can) as this subject matter is not just for online readings. When someone comes to you and asks a question, do you think "this is a question that they've come to an astrologer to seek guidance with" or do you think "I don't do horary". What determines whether you, as the astrologer, opt to use horary, a natal predictive technique etc.?

Really the difference online is that, as far as I'm concerned, when you post up a horary chart you are saying "I am the astrologer for this question" and therefore you are the one who has responsibility for answering it. Everyone else can chime in and give advice, but it's your chart, not ours.

The question still becomes however, what is the determinant for why something is immoral. If a person comes to an astrologer for ANY reason is it immoral for that person to address their issues astrologically and if not why not? You do 'modern astrology' but what does this mean in relation to morality, if someone comes to you and asks about relationship issues, what do you do? Are you qualified to do that with potentially vulnerable people?

We need not necessarily predict to run into issues of morality and where the line lies, but you yourself predict likely and unlikely times. Is this not similarly immoral? If not why not? Why is predicting something vaguely any better than predicting something with more focus - is the criterion going to be accuracy? Are you predicting vaguely because you do not feel accuracy is possible? Is the constraint of what you deem possible the criterion for whether a thing is moral or not?

I think these are all really important questions for us to answer so that we can fine tune where our moral 'line' is drawn, and, more importantly (imo) why we draw the lines there.

I am not opposed to giving people news they won't want to hear about relationships. But without a natal chart and/or extensive communication, you have no idea what is really going on through the querent's mind. You can get a much better idea, I think, from a natal chart and some dialogue with the person.

I appreciate you do not do horary but I strongly disagree with this view. As someone who does both, often together, I can honestly hand on heart say that it is much quicker and easier to get a very quick snapshot of the mindest of the querent from a horary than from a natal chart which stays static throughout the entirety of a person's life. You need to apply 'filters' of information to the nativity such as progressions, transits, directions etc. or some combination of them to achieve it with a nativity. With a horary you already have it in just the one chart. I have yet to see, for example, a horary where the main significator(s) for the querent are in detriment/fall and they are not in some way ill at ease either physically or mentally. I normally say that it shows a sickness of mind or body with regards the question when you see it. You can tell very quickly. When you see how the ascendant is, and what is in it and what aspect it and the lord of the ascendant, and then the separating aspects of the Moon as well, we can very very quickly sum up the basic mindset and 'situation' of our querent, and, if you were so inclined, can even, often with great accuracy, describe their appearance.

Whilst I appreciate you do not do horary, I would just caution about contrasting the two in terms of efficacy.

Unfortunately horary can all too often deteriorate into a kind of fortune-telling, that doesn't address the fundamental issues.

Actually horary doesn't do anything at all. Horary ASTROLGOERS on the other hand may or may not. THe whole purpose of horary is to address specific concerns and offer guidance and feedback on how the querent can navigate those concerns. The level to which you want to take that depends entirely on the astrologer. You could quite happily, as I have done in the past, have a kind of 'counselling' (though I shudder to use the term) session based just on the horary. Bear in mind, just to offer you another way of thinking about this, very often the horary chart will also be a kind of consultation chart as well.

In any event one can use the natal chart for forecasting and once again it's up to the astrologer, not the astrology, whether that becomes fortune telling or not.

In any even with regards your comment of giving likely or unlikely times, that is exactly what many horary astrologers say. Someone may ask "will I fall in love by Christmas next year" - you could use a nativity and examine transits and progressions and conclude that it's unlikely. Someone else could examine a horary and conclude that it's unlikely.

The methods we use to get there shouldn't be the determinants for whether a thing is moral or immoral and we shouldn't project conclusions that one form of prediction is, by necessity, likely to degenerate into fortune telling and another is unlikely to. The only criterion which determines how astrology is used is the astrologer.

We can imagine a 40-year old single woman asking about her natal chart: "Why am I 40 and still single?" Or of a horary chart: "Will I get married?"

It seems to me that with the natal chart and some discussion, you can discuss with her some life-themes that affect her single status. Maybe she is exceptionally reclusive. Maybe she needs her independence. Maybe she's smart enough not to settle for Mr. Wrong. And you can build on these in constructive ways.

Of course, but when she goes home will you have actually answered her question? Does that matter? I guess what we need to address is whether or not you feel it's actually possible to answer the question "Will I get married by 2015" even if only in terms of likelihood?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Great, but modern methods does not preclude prediction either of course, even if the nature of what is predicted changes - often the changes are psychological or 'spiritual' in outlook rather than event driven.

Perhaps, but unlike your example, the OP isn't so unreal it's almost laughable. It happens all the time. It's happening right now on this forum. It happens in real life too. So whilst I understand that we can't address every single thing hypothetically, we can offer our feedback on what we ourselves do or don't do and why. Unless you're saying that you've never been asked a romance question in your capacity as an astrologer, then this situation will also be very real to you too.

Waybread are you suggesting that the issue of morality cannot be commented on one way or another without reference to a case by case example and if so what makes this particular application of morality different from other ones? Obviously people, yourself included, do talk about issues pertaining to morality in general terms and not just case by case.

By your choice, my point is that it doesn't make the OP inapt.

I appreciate you don't do much horary off line, but imagine instead that you did (if you can) as this subject matter is not just for online readings. When someone comes to you and asks a question, do you think "this is a question that they've come to an astrologer to seek guidance with" or do you think "I don't do horary". What determines whether you, as the astrologer, opt to use horary, a natal predictive technique etc.?

Really the difference online is that, as far as I'm concerned, when you post up a horary chart you are saying "I am the astrologer for this question" and therefore you are the one who has responsibility for answering it. Everyone else can chime in and give advice, but it's your chart, not ours.

The question still becomes however, what is the determinant for why something is immoral. If a person comes to an astrologer for ANY reason is it immoral for that person to address their issues astrologically and if not why not? You do 'modern astrology' but what does this mean in relation to morality, if someone comes to you and asks about relationship issues, what do you do? Are you qualified to do that with potentially vulnerable people?

We need not necessarily predict to run into issues of morality and where the line lies, but you yourself predict likely and unlikely times. Is this not similarly immoral? If not why not? Why is predicting something vaguely any better than predicting something with more focus - is the criterion going to be accuracy? Are you predicting vaguely because you do not feel accuracy is possible? Is the constraint of what you deem possible the criterion for whether a thing is moral or not?

I think these are all really important questions for us to answer so that we can fine tune where our moral 'line' is drawn, and, more importantly (imo) WHY we draw the lines there.

I appreciate you do not do horary but I strongly disagree with this view. As someone who does both, often together, I can honestly hand on heart say that it is much quicker and easier to get a very quick snapshot of the mindest of the querent from a horary than from a natal chart which stays static throughout the entirety of a person's life. You need to apply 'filters' of information to the nativity such as progressions, transits, directions etc. or some combination of them to achieve it with a nativity. With a horary you already have it in just the one chart. I have yet to see, for example, a horary where the main significator(s) for the querent are in detriment/fall and they are not in some way ill at ease either physically or mentally. I normally say that it shows a sickness of mind or body with regards the question when you see it. You can tell very quickly. When you see how the ascendant is, and what is in it and what aspect it and the lord of the ascendant, and then the separating aspects of the Moon as well, we can very very quickly sum up the basic mindset and 'situation' of our querent, and, if you were so inclined, can even, often with great accuracy, describe their appearance.

Whilst I appreciate you do not do horary, I would just caution about contrasting the two in terms of efficacy.

Actually horary doesn't do anything at all. Horary ASTROLGOERS on the other hand may or may not. THe whole purpose of horary is to address specific concerns and offer guidance and feedback on how the querent can navigate those concerns. The level to which you want to take that depends entirely on the astrologer. You could quite happily, as I have done in the past, have a kind of 'counselling' (though I shudder to use the term) session based just on the horary. Bear in mind, just to offer you another way of thinking about this, very often the horary chart will also be a kind of consultation chart as well.

In any event one can use the natal chart for forecasting and once again it's up to the astrologer, not the astrology, whether that becomes fortune telling or not.

In any even with regards your comment of giving likely or unlikely times, that is exactly what many horary astrologers say. Someone may ask "will I fall in love by Christmas next year" - you could use a nativity and examine transits and progressions and conclude that it's unlikely. Someone else could examine a horary and conclude that it's unlikely.

The methods we use to get there shouldn't be the determinants for whether a thing is moral or immoral and we shouldn't project conclusions that one form of prediction is, by necessity, likely to degenerate into fortune telling and another is unlikely to. The only criterion which determines how astrology is used is the astrologer.

Of course, but when she goes home will you have actually answered her question? Does that matter? I guess what we need to address is whether or not you feel it's actually possible to answer the question "Will I get married by 2015" even if only in terms of likelihood?
These are all sound arguments :smile:

It is increasingly evident, that so far as some are concerned at any rate,
the job of an astrologer = the job of a psychological counselor


HOWEVER

Astrology from ancient times is clearly for the purposes of prediction.

The job of an astrologer is to answer the client's question

If the astrologer is unwilling to answer ANY client's astrologically predictive question EVER
and instead insists on a counseling session instead,
then that astrologer is ignoring the client's needs and furthermore has chosen the wrong profession.

The client clearly is consulting the astrologer in order to receive astrological prediction


If the client needed counseling the client would have instead chosen a psychological counselor
 

wilsontc

Well-known member
Avoiding attacks

All,

In discussions where there are strong opinions on either side, it helps to simply state your opinion on the SUBJECT instead of stating your opinion how you feel about the other PERSON. No person's intent or tone can be understood through text alone (since the all-important clues of the person's tone (e.g., the way they look at you, tone of voice, body stance) are not present since you can't SEE the other person) so all you can do is respond to what the person actually said without trying to find some other "tone" to object to. Focus on the SUBJECT and leave your personal opinions of the other PERSON alone. Otherwise you risk being moderated for attacking/trolling the other person.

Suggesting,

Tim
 
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waybread

Staff member
Re: Avoiding attacks

JA, it is not correct to constrain astrology as being primarily about prediction. Much of it is, but we can think of many, many examples to the contrary. Many people's questions are not "when" questions but "why" questions based on the natal chart. Modern astrology suggests that natal astrology is a tool for self-awareness, for example. Mundane astrologers often look at a recent natraul disaster to see why it happened, without wanting to predict when a similar disaster might happen in the future.

You seem to have a mistaken view of what happens during a normal natal chart reading, as well. Typically it is the client or OPer who asks for advice but the phrase "counseling session" doesn't capture the nature of what takes place such that a professional counseler would recognize it as his type of practice.

You don't read charts for people so far as I can determine, other than offering a couple of ideas or telling them to read Vettius Valens or something comparable. Possibly this is the source of your misunderstanding as to what takes place.

I have no idea whom you mean by an astrologer "who wouldn't answer any predictive questions ever;" shall I assume you mean me? If so, you need to read more of my posts on this forum. I will suggest to OPers likely or unlikely, and good or bad times for something to happen. The chart will "out" but any given natal horoscopic placement is capable of more than one outcome. People have choices to make in life, and a choice made at time T can influence an outcome at time Z.
 
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waybread

Staff member
Paul, here is what you posted on the morality of death prediction thread. I assume that it summarizes your attitudes about beginners engaging in relationship predictions.

I think rank beginners shouldn't be doing anything at all for clients. They should be honing their skills. That could mean reading every book they can get their hands on, being under a kind of 'master-student' or apprentice relationship with another astrologer, or educating themselves through an astrological school. They can of course look at charts, but, in my view, prediction is probably not something that is under the skillset of a beginner."
 

wilsontc

Well-known member
Moved two threads to "morality of death prediction" thread

All,

Two posts that referred to "mortality" and "sickness" I moved to the "morality of death prediction" thread.

Moving,

Tim
 

poyi

Premium Member
Re: Moved two threads to "morality of death prediction" thread

All,

Two posts that referred to "mortality" and "sickness" I moved to the "morality of death prediction" thread.

Moving,

Tim

Tim!

I thought I went mental and made mistake and posted on the Morality thread!!!! You moved it!!:biggrin: Anyway, I deleted that post as I was not intended to post further in that thread. Good to know that I wasn't mad. Sorry I removed that. I didn't see your reason of moving it...
 
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Paul_

Account Closed
Paul, here is what you posted on the morality of death prediction thread. I assume that it summarizes your attitudes about beginners engaging in relationship predictions.

Hi Waybread

However in reply to this, that is more or less correct. But please do be clear, as you've misunderstood other points I've made on that thread (incidentally I left that thread for a reason so I hope this one doesn't become a medium to get me to reply to issues I mentioned there). It is important to not mistake my advice, or my opinion for more than what it is - I advise that beginners not predict anything at all for anyone else, and instead, for example, read and learn from other people who predict, asking questions along the way etc. and I think they will learn quicker. I also advise that it is wise to consider what our skillset is - if we're a beginner, prediction is probably precluded. I include horary in this. Therefore if you're new to astrology, you're at the stage of learning the technicalities and the various paradigms employed, and not yet at a level to actually form reasonably astrologically sound judgments about a prediction.

However, this is the bit I really want to convey, this is just advice, this is my opinion. I am not advocating that anyone else follow me, or that anyone else enforce upon others based on my own opinion. In the other thread you seemed to confuse advice or my opinion, for a desire to enforce that view upon others, or upon this forum. I do not want to do that.

I hope this make more sense.

[deleted comments about Moderating - Moderator]
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Paul, here is what you posted on the morality of death prediction thread. I assume that it summarizes your attitudes about beginners engaging in relationship predictions.
Quote:
I think rank beginners shouldn't be doing anything at all for clients. They should be honing their skills.

That could mean reading every book they can get their hands on, being under a kind of 'master-student' or apprentice relationship with another astrologer, or educating themselves through an astrological school. They can of course look at charts, but, in my view, prediction is probably not something that is under the skillset of a beginner."
The thread topic is Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those in Natal as well as Horary Astrology
and NOT whether or not specifically beginners ought to engage in relationship prediction

Obviously, experienced astrologers also engage in relationship prediction
:smile:
 

waybread

Staff member
Thanks, Paul. Your entire post is noted.

Just one more point about what I did glean from your two long posts, above, is the aptness of the "Heinz" analogy for the OP. On one level, analogies aren't the same as what they are intended to illustrate. On another level, sometimes they are easier to grasp.

In case this one wasn't, all I can say is that in *my astrology* and in much of what I read, advising people is a far more nuanced business than the OP implies. As in the "Heinz" example, what might seem like a straightforward proposition can mask more than it reveals. What you see may not be what you get.

A stark black-and-white line drawing, similarly, can mask all of the colours and complexity of the subject it is meant to represent. Defining a particular food item merely as "bread" masks its ingredients if your interest is actually in what goes into the recipe. So in that sense, a stripped-down moral proposition needs to be shown in a more realistic light.

This is what I tried to show in some of my personal examples in my previous posts.

I just found a book speaking directly to this topic in our local used book store, Joan McEvers, ed. Astrological Counseling (1990.) She got 10 other astrologers to describe how they actually prepare for a meeting with a client, and how they interact. There are other books like this on the market.

It includes many relationship examples, JA!

Needless to say, each of these professionals has had sobbing clients in his/her office. The medical astrologer, Eileen Nauman, consults with seriously ill and frightened people. I can't convey all of the complexity of the astrologers' approach to counseling here, except to say that it is a highly nuanced, multi-part business.

So yes, they deliver chart interpretations that might might distress the client, but they have many ways to prepare for it, ranging from a box of kleenex in their office, to a carefully pre-considered game plan as to how they would work with the client in order for him to leave with a more empowered sense of the initial issue and his ability to handle it.

Personally I am not a fan of the term "counseling" in astrology, unless the astrologer has a degree in counseling or clinical psychology. Counseling is a bona fide professional field, requiring a license to practice in many places. Maybe it's a question of semantics, but I prefer the terms "advising" or "consulting."
 
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poyi

Premium Member
I have a question if a beginner never attempted to practice reading for someone else other than his or her own chart, how does one break out of the title as "Beginner"?

I thought becoming an advanced astrologer one must at least be able to read charts and predict for complete strangers.
 
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waybread

Staff member
Just a quick example from the McEvers book p. 110, by astrologer Gray Keen:

"A 29-year-old woman wanted to know if she could safely circumvent an astrologer's warning (given when she was 17) that she would never marry. The client said that she had turned down several excellent marriage proposals because she was afraid to circumvent the astrologer's warning..."

This soooo illustrates the need to contextualize a chart reading for a client, and to work with them to understand that the chart will manifest in some way, but that she has choices to make in life, and that these choices can be empowering or disempowering. Also, why the seriously predictive astrologer should stress that no astrologer is infallible.

There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy which has nothing to do with either prophecy or a rotten prediction by an insensitive astrologer.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I have a question if a beginner never attempted to practice reading for someone else other than his or her own chart, how does one break out of the title as "Beginner"?

I thought becoming an advanced astrologer one must at least be able to read charts and predict for complete strangers.
Good observation poyi :smile:

An astrologer may claim they have a right to read charts simply because they have been reading charts for 10, 20, 30, 40 or however many years
but no one prevented them 10, 20, 30, 40 or however many years ago from reading charts

Also ours is a learning forum
and therefore it seems ridiculous to complain that beginners are delineating charts on a learning forum

that is the purpose of the forum
 

waybread

Staff member
I have a question if a beginner never attempted to practice reading for someone else other than his or her own chart, how does one break out of the title as "Beginner"?

I thought becoming an advanced astrologer one must at least be able to read charts and predict for complete strangers.

Poyi, who suggested that you never read charts for other people? Not me!

I hope my above examples, however, show some of the "people" skills that are helpful in addition to mastery of technique.

I do 99% of my chart-readings on-line. I do predict on occasion, but in a more general way than is typical of horary astrologers. When asked to predict by way of fortune-telling, I decline.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Again for some reasons some people like to use my career to make up examples. Actually we do get supervised if there is enough staffs and facilitator around but in some cases we were also like chicken running free in the field.

In reality among astrologer how many astrologers actually went to school and got supervised? But most do read enough textbook and theories but no all have the chance and money to actually attend full time or part time courses.
 

Marinka

Well-known member
That's comforting to know! :lol:

You know what's even better -- I used to work in a teaching hospital and every year, summertime to be precise, the new crop of interns and residents would arrive. Contrary to what many believe, interns with plenty of book knowledge and no hands-on are suddenly thrust into the middle of emergencies and expected to handle it. They don't have anyone standing over them and watching .... :crying:

Needless to say, to this day I do not allow my family or friends to undergo any elective hospital procedures during June, July and August ....
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Again for some reasons some people like to use my career to make up examples. Actually we do get supervised if there is enough staffs and facilitator around but in some cases we were also like chicken running free in the field.

In reality among astrologer how many astrologers actually went to school and got supervised? But most do read enough textbook and theories but no all have the chance and money to actually attend full time or part time courses.
And you have that in common with those astrologers who learned astrology decades ago by reading charts, even though to begin with - just like today's beginners - they had no clue and many are still practicing today.

In fact, if the argument is that beginners need to pass exams, then those more experienced need to pass exams as well and be expected to pass astrological tests on a regular basis just as vehicle drivers must regularly re-take their driving test :smile:
 
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