Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrology

[JUPITERASC]

It is not unusual for members to request information regarding astrological prediction of their possible future relationship prospects. Asking a relationship Horary question is a popular method of seeking answers/advice to such questions

Obviously then, because anyone may well be justifiably depressed/upset if they were told that their future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely

- and given that not everyone believes in astrology and many are simply curious -

and since many have implicit belief that the astrologer in particular is qualified to tell them their future relationship prospects

THEN

(A) are astrologers morally justified in predicting that future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely if that is their opinion of the chart in question?


AND IF

an astrologer may have led a client to believe in a definite prospect/likelihood of a relationship within the next few months or so


AND THEN NO SUCH PROSPECTS OCCURRED

and the client became depressed

Then

(B) are astrologers morally justified in predicting that future relationship prospects are excellent?

 

[Zarathu]

This is sort of like asking whether a professional counselor is justified in telling someone that they are on a path of action that will lead to their big or little demise.

Carl Rogers struggled with this back in the late 1940's and developed not directive counseling, where he just said uh-huh and mmm until the client finally came around to his way of thinking. Counseling took eons of time and cost a mint. I hate to think it was the mint part that motivated him, but I've always wondered.

If the astrologer is a beginner or even intermediate, then I might agree that they should not say anything until they know a lot more. If the astrologer is a professional, and has had many many many correct suggestions, then s/he should proceed.

But even so.... most wester astrologers will say such things as "it suggests" or "it seems Like" or "probably". Most western astrologers recognize the concept of free will.

So maybe your question is just a re--query of the Free Will question in a new bright red wool winter coat for a new season.

 

[JUPITERASC]

So maybe your question is just a re--query of the Free Will question in a new bright red wool winter coat for a new season.

On the contrary

To clarify then,

the discussion on this thread is intended to focus on the morality of predicting to a client that
in the opinion of the astrologer doing the prediction
the client's future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely
given that many clients are likely to be disturbed/upset by such a delineation

 

[Zarathu]

On the contrary

To clarify then,

the discussion on this thread is intended to focus on the morality of predicting to a client that
in the opinion of the astrologer doing the prediction
the client's future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely
given that many clients are likely to be disturbed/upset by such a delineation

In my opinion, JupiterASC, I have never seen a chart where the client's prospects were "nil/negligible/unlikely". I've been in this study for 45 years and if I've not seen it by now and especially with all the horrible sad stories here, then I don't think it exists.

But, if we were to take your abstract example, and I were to find such a chart, then I would find it immoral to ruin their life by telling them that in effect they might as well commit suicide and get a new roll of the dice.

But in my astrology world, I've always been able to show the client a direction to move, even if that direction is a very very narrow path, with a steep rock drop on both sides. I run across those paths all the time here. In the case I'm thinking of, the client wasn't very interested in hearing my reference because it didn't agree with him---even though he'd already admitted that his way was not working.

40 years in counseling, I often ran into counseling clients who wouldn't change even though what they were doing was an abysmal failure. They persisted in DEMANDING that other people change FOR THEM. This is pretty typical.

I always start the expalanation and if they don't want the narrow but successful way or try to twist my words, I stop immediately. IT IS immoral to try to force someone to change when they don't want to, even if what they are doing is not working.

That's essentially a kind of black magic and any violation of someone's free will is evil, imo.

 

[JUPITERASC]

In my opinion, JupiterASC, I have never seen a chart where the client's prospects were "nil/negligible/unlikely". I've been in this study for 45 years and if I've not seen it by now and especially with all the horrible sad stories here, then I don't think it exists.

But, if we were to take your abstract example, and I were to find such a chart, then I would find it immoral to ruin their life by telling them that in effect they might as well commit suicide and get a new roll of the dice.

But in my astrology world, I've always been able to show the client a direction to move, even if that direction is a very very narrow path, with a steep rock drop on both sides. I run across those paths all the time here. In the case I'm thinking of, the client wasn't very interested in hearing my reference because it didn't agree with him---even though he'd already admitted that his way was not working.

40 years in counseling, I often ran into counseling clients who wouldn't change even though what they were doing was an abysmal failure. They persisted in DEMANDING that other people change FOR THEM. This is pretty typical.

I always start the expalanation and if they don't want the narrow but successful way or try to twist my words, I stop immediately. IT IS immoral to try to force someone to change when they don't want to, even if what they are doing is not working.

That's essentially a kind of black magic and any violation of someone's free will is evil, imo.

Nevertheless, when a client may seek a prediction regarding potential future relationships
and an astrologer tells them there are good prospects for future relationships
yet time passes and no such future relationships are established
resulting in the client experiencing a lengthy depression
then was it moral of the astrologer to make a prediction that led to the client's disappointment?

 

[dr. farr]

I'll tell you what I do, here on AW, regarding this issue (my attitude and the actions I take, which I do NOT claim to be "right" or wrong, but merely what I do, based on my OWN principles regarding truth, beauty and honor)

-reading a posted question, that interests me and that involves my making a prediction (actually, my making of an estimation of the likely results of Cosmic trends, since I do NOT believe that the future can be KNOWN except by a prophet of the Divinity), I then make my estimation (delineation)

-if this delineation is negative (for example a "no" answer to a horary question) I simply do not post my delineation to that thread
-if this delineation is positive, I post my delineation
-however, if the OP has received other answers on their thread and:
a) the OP requests yet more answers than the ones they have already received
or
b) the OP specifically requests me to post a response
or
c) I have responded to previous questions by the OP on other threads, and in this way the OP has previously "gotten to know me"...

THEN

-I will post my negative delineation of the OP's question.

IF this answer of mine (whether favorable or negative regarding the OP's question) involves HORARY, I ALWAYS head my horary delineation with a disclaimer that what I am doing is NOT generally accepted horary practice.
If this delineation of mine involves ANY matter pertaining to health, I ALWAYS suggest medical investigation of whatever health problem the individual is concerned with, and I further state that what I am posting is ONLY MY OPINION, based on astrological principles-as I understand those principles.

 

[waybread]

What do you mean by "predictive," JA?

In one sense I might tell someone that their current relationship doesn't look wonderful, but I wouldn't predict an ending date, and I don't do horary. I don't think advising someone about a relationship works best as fortune-telling.

You see a lot of questions like, "Why am I 40 and still single?" Oftentimes you can see why in the chart. Maybe the person looks very reclusive. Maybe she has trust issues. Maybe she's a quadruple Aries and truly needs her independence. You try to work with this, and validate their single status.

I think you always support the dignity of the querant. You try to lead them to understand that they have options. You try to get them to look at their behaviours. You try to read the chart to get some understanding of the person.

And above all, you let an anxious person know that life does go on. You may never forget your first (or current love) but that doesn't mean you can't learn from a break-up, or learn how to become an autonomous single.

I might tell someone (as I recently did on a solar return chart) that Venus moving into the 7th is usually a good time for romance. And it has been for her, but I would never say anything more definitive.

 

[Paul_]

In my opinion, JupiterASC, I have never seen a chart where the client's prospects were "nil/negligible/unlikely". I've been in this study for 45 years and if I've not seen it by now and especially with all the horrible sad stories here, then I don't think it exists.

You do horary Zarathu, correct? You have never seen an instance when someone asks "Will I marry Jeff?" and the answer, in your opionion, is no?

You must now know a lot of happily married horary querents.

But, if we were to take your abstract example, and I were to find such a chart, then I would find it immoral to ruin their life by telling them that in effect they might as well commit suicide and get a new roll of the dice.

I don't recall anyone asking you to tell them to commit suicide. The question was whether it would be unethical to tell them the truth of the chart as you understand it?

That's essentially a kind of black magic and any violation of someone's free will is evil, imo.

But until anyone mentions trying to violate someone's free will we can probably leave this argument aside.

The question is whether or not it is unethical to predict, in whatever context, that a relationship question someone asks about will be negative.

Maybe a hypothetical example will help?
I am a man of 21 and have never been in a relationship ever, I have never kissed a girl, and I am very much alone. I ask "will I meet someone and get married before Christmas" how do you answer? You can imagine that the question is posed to you either as a horary or a nativity.

 

[Paul_]

-if this delineation is negative (for example a "no" answer to a horary question) I simply do not post my delineation to that thread
-if this delineation is positive, I post my delineation
-however, if the OP has received other answers on their thread and:
a) the OP requests yet more answers than the ones they have already received
or
b) the OP specifically requests me to post a response
or
c) I have responded to previous questions by the OP on other threads, and in this way the OP has previously "gotten to know me"...

THEN

-I will post my negative delineation of the OP's question.

Curious, why these caveats?

Let's move away from the forum idea, in real life if I contact you and I ask you a question about romance, and you see in the chart it's negative, do you simply not take the question?

You say you work as a homeopath, do you take the same approach with homeopathy - in other words if I walk into your 'clinic' (I'm not familiar with how homeopaths work so forgive me the poor nomenclature) and I tell you my symptoms and I ask "am I unwell?" and you see that i am, do you similarly not offer your negative judgement?

 

[waybread]

I can't say that every cloud has a silver lining or paste a happy-smiley face on a horrible break-up (oh, like my divorce 20 years ago.) In not doing much predictive work and no horary, I have looked at a lot of synastry and composite charts where the two people seem mismatched. Sometimes with the individual charts and from what the native posts, you might intuit that she is terrified of being on her own.

From the posts, you sometimes find out financial troubles, custody issues, or a lot more hinging on the relationship than just the twosome. This is always worth asking about. Maybe the initial question concerns a romantic break-up, but it turns out that if the native does break up with her BF, she's headed for the homeless shelter.

So one thing you can do with nativity-based charts is to start to open new possibilities for the person into the future. For example, "With your Aries nature, you have the capacity and need for some independence." Or possibly it's a mother with a strong 5th house, and you can emphasize that she clarify what is best for her children. This way the native can project herself into her own future, hopefully in a more empowered way.

I recall one thread over at Astrodienst where the poster was in deep distress. Her husband announced that he was leaving her; and she had no personal income, no job, a mortgaged property, and a child or two. This all overwhelmed her. She thought she would be bankrupt as well as heartbroken; and there was a daughter who would be deeply distressed at losing Daddy. Well, never mind the astrology. The responders gave her solid practical advice, like see a lawyer right away, secure your bank accounts and credit cards, and recognize that he will have to pay child support and probably alimony. Start with a binding separation agreement, itemizing your assets, if need be. What about joint custody?

Then we worked with her horoscope to focus on the strengths she will have to pull through this difficult time. I do look at transits. (And progressions, if posted.) For example, I might say, "Right now you are going through a difficult time with Pluto squaring your sun, but this should ease off by February."

I think such "case studies" are far more helpful than hypotheticals.

 

[dr. farr]

Curious, why these caveats?

Let's move away from the forum idea, in real life if I contact you and I ask you a question about romance, and you see in the chart it's negative, do you simply not take the question?

You say you work as a homeopath, do you take the same approach with homeopathy - in other words if I walk into your 'clinic' (I'm not familiar with how homeopaths work so forgive me the poor nomenclature) and I tell you my symptoms and I ask "am I unwell?" and you see that i am, do you similarly not offer your negative judgement?

As I mentioned in my post, this is the attitude I take RELATIVE TO THIS FORUM, ie a public forum where I have no connection with the querent other than by posting, where I know next to nothing about their potential susceptibility and vulnerability, their age, level of life experience, etc.

My approach to a PM request, where I can obtain additional specific information regarding the person and their circumstances, or to an in person interview with a person, is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Same too with a personal homeopathic consultation, where I can see the person, find out a great deal about them, find out the medical investigations they might have already had, and so can know how to judge WHAT I TELL THAT PERSON, and especially HOW I TELL IT TO THAT PERSON...

 

[Paul_]

As I mentioned in my post, this is the attitude I take RELATIVE TO THIS FORUM, ie a public forum where I have no connection with the querent other than by posting, where I know next to nothing about their potential susceptibility and vulnerability, their age, level of life experience, etc.

My approach to a PM request, where I can obtain additional specific information regarding the person and their circumstances, or to an in person interview with a person, is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Same too with a personal homeopathic consultation, where I can see the person, find out a great deal about them, find out the medical investigations they might have already had, and so can know how to judge WHAT I TELL THAT PERSON, and especially HOW I TELL IT TO THAT PERSON...

Thanks Dr Farr, I was just curious if you had the same ethical principles offline as you apply online - but your answer makes it clear where you distinguish between them.

 

[JUPITERASC]

A member has asked a question concerning relationship with their mother - the question: SHOULD I CUT OFF ALL TIES WITH MY MOTHER? http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=502589#post502589 Any comments?

It seems like the relationship I have with my mom is toxic. She encourages me to do everything opposite of what I'd like to do in life. I think I talk to her, gossip and complain with her way too much. It's bringing me down. Every time I distance myself from her, my life is much better, but then someone gives me a guilt trip telling me to talk to her since she's my mother and all. I really just want to cut her off for good so that I can be happy and move on with my life. Some people tell me to distance myself and maybe check on her here and there, but the minute I talk to her she just brings me back into complaining and second guessing myself. She seems manipulative and kind of like a leech. I believe she also has a drug problem. What do you guys think, would it be bad if I just cut her off completely?

 

[Mandy]

Parties who may be interested in viewing relevant science should read the following:

A

B

I would not normally communicate with links, but the second is a short paragraph (part of bigger, known, research). The first is applicable generally and valuable (I hope you will read to end). In any event, both are truly relevant to this thread. They will make my point.

So, to conclude, framing is part of the brain's architecture. Being honest (i.e., fine print ceveats) and realistic about objectivity (i.e., multiple approaches) and what prediction frames are made of, in my opinion, is the moral duty of the professional. To qualify that, the short second article casts valid doubt on the lack of free will argument. Framing of predictions as if there is no free will, or leaving this unspoken, can sound sufficiently persuasive to impinge on the free will of the recipient which, as Zarathu said, may have unintentional consequences.

Prediction, by definition, comes with a somewhat broken frame already since it gives only a possible part of the story. What good is part of the story about the future when judged with a present mind? It is not just a delivery. It is a delivery in the context of potential harm, poor prediction of how the person will take these news, a concern about their wellbeing needs to be prioritised over accurate prediction. If one wishes to provide a moral service, then a concern with this cannot be ignored.

Morals are constructions, meaning they are dependent on the amount and the quality of information available. It is no secret that astrologers seldom conduct research into the psychological consequences of their readings on the recipients (i.e., months after) and/or share this research with each others, despite having facility to do so. To be objective, I do not aim to preach extensively about the right or wrong of predictions from psychological perspectives. But I do insist that practicing and aspiring astrologers get into the habit of conducting this type of research germaine to their practice so to be informed about potential pitfalls and how these can be improved.

In my eyes, prediction is a small consideration of moral and ethical predictive service. Consideration of present research (named; A & B), the implementation of this into practice and the continuation of personal research to share with the wider community bolster an ethical approach whilst taking the moral initiative to protect the wellbeing of clients.

 

[poyi]

I think, very simple.

It is immoral if I refused this person and telling him I concerned about my own morality standard when this person living in a life like hell day and night distressed about the question he having in mind. He may come to ask me if I could do prediction and give them some answer, explanation, to relieve a little bit of his pain and concerns and support his through positive counselling whatever the predictions maybe.

Of course if I don't have the skills I would say no I can't do it but I will offer you time to listen and to understand from your perspective. But I will never say Oh No this is so immoral of you asking that question and it is so immoral for me to do that and just rejected them.

My principle is I must provide constructive inspiration to those come to seek for guidance. Rather I can predict or not. I will always make sure I made a change for better. So it will base on the situation and judgement to be made as per Individual case.

 

[Mandy]

The question is not whether it is moral to help. The question is, if I have understood correctly, what does one do to minimise the risk of harm to a native given, what we have come to know as, the unavoidable hurdle "grey area" in astrological, predictive, practice. Thus, is it moral to give positive/negative predictions to a unknown child/adult even though we know these predictions may be wrong? If yes, what are the caveats?

Poyi, it is fine to want to alleviate someone's pain. But not everyone who has that intention necessarily does alleviate pain, however. How do you "make sure" that you made a change for the better?

 

[JUPITERASC]

The question is not whether it is moral to help. The question is, if I have understood correctly, what does one do to minimise the risk of harm to a native given, what we have come to know as, the unavoidable hurdle "grey area" in astrological, predictive, practice. Thus, is it moral to give positive/negative predictions to a unknown child/adult even though we know these predictions may be wrong? If yes, what are the caveats?

Poyi, it is fine to want to alleviate someone's pain. But not everyone who has that intention necessarily does alleviate pain, however. How do you "make sure" that you made a change for the better?

Here's the question posted on the OP

It is not unusual for members to request information regarding astrological prediction of their possible future relationship prospects. Asking a relationship Horary question is a popular method of seeking answers/advice to such questions

Obviously then, because anyone may well be justifiably depressed/upset if they were told that their future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely

- and given that not everyone believes in astrology and many are simply curious -

and since many have implicit belief that the astrologer in particular is qualified to tell them their future relationship prospects

THEN

(A) are astrologers morally justified in predicting that future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely if that is their opinion of the chart in question?


AND IF

an astrologer may have led a client to believe in a definite prospect/likelihood of a relationship within the next few months or so


AND THEN NO SUCH PROSPECTS OCCURRED

and the client became depressed

Then

(B) are astrologers morally justified in predicting that future relationship prospects are excellent?

 

[waybread]

As I've tried to explain above, I don't think the OP is completely apt in terms of what can transpire during an on-line consultation. I have given some realistic examples above, drawn from threads on Internet astrology forums here and at Astrodienst.

For sure, if the chart-reader is well-intended, s/he wants to "help people." But oftentimes you should engage a distraught person in a longer discussion to get a sense of what is really going on with her. I truly oppose "hit and run" dispensers of negative advice except in specific cases where the OPer is far from suicidal and needs a wake-up call.

Possibly the querant feels the need of a relationship keenly because she has low self-esteem and looks to some man to make her feel better about herself. Maybe her family and relatives are making her life difficult because in their culture, most women are married by their mid-20s. Maybe she is cataclysmically in love with someone who gives her the Big Brush-Off. These are life-issues where you can work with the querant and encourage her to become more emotionally self-sustaining.

 

[JUPITERASC]

The ending of a relationship may well be psychologically experienced in a very similar way to when a person dies
and this is common knowledge - for example suicide of a person who has been rejected in this way.

When an astrologer predicts death/ending of a relationship one is referred to as 'immoral death clock prediction' by some
Yet those same nay-sayers find the prediction of the ending of a relationship as fine to do

 

[Paul_]

As I've tried to explain above, I don't think the OP is completely apt in terms of what can transpire during an on-line consultation. I have given some realistic examples above, drawn from threads on Internet astrology forums here and at Astrodienst.

Waybread, putting aside online forums, what about in real life consultations. YOu say you cannot see how the OP is apt and relate it only to online consultations, but it's worth highlighting that the OP itself never specified that stipulation. So taking the OP broader and not just limited to the internet, what do you think regarding the issue of morality.

For sure, if the chart-reader is well-intended, s/he wants to "help people." But oftentimes you should engage a distraught person in a longer discussion to get a sense of what is really going on with her. I truly oppose "hit and run" dispensers of negative advice except in specific cases where the OPer is far from suicidal and needs a wake-up call.

But sometimes that's the case too. Sometimes the 'negative' horaries are the ones where the querent is actually helped the most. I fully agree with your earlier views regarding a natal chart though. Sometimes you see, in fact very often you do (especially online) where a querent asks the same questions over and over - and clearly when we have these kinds of patterns we're better off putting down the horary and picking up the nativity. It's worth remembering that horary and natal charts are not mutually exclusive. If you were to come to me in person right now and ask me a question, depending on what it was, I would be likely to look at both your natal and cast a horary. I don't recognise that people come to me with 'horary questions' they just come with issues/problems that they need guidance for. I might use a horary to help, or a nativity, or both. But sometimes the horary is what is best needed. Sometimes the simplicity of a yes or no question is what is needed. No, he will not leave his wife for you. Honestly, things like that can change someone's life for the better, it will of course hurt. But it's short term, far better than wasting the best years of your life hankering on something that isn't going to happen.

But what if it does, you might say, what if you're wrong. It happens. The role of the astrologer is not to pretend toward infallibility, but if the querent/native believes in astrology and in horary then the decision, as always, is theirs.

You're right that sometimes it takes a longer discussion, but sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes the horary is just a key toward a longer discussion on the nativity.

I'm curious because I don't think I've ever asked you this: have you ever actually read a horary for someone in real life, not on line? I'm not asking to invalidate your views if you answer no.