Refuse your "lessons"

Rasalhague

Well-known member
Rasalhague - Thank you for such a powerful post so brilliantly written,

This is what I believe about karma and "lessons": Where I've put in the effort I expect to see results. If results are not there after a reasonable amount of time I will take charge and consider this lesson "finished."

Most successful people I personally know do not use astrology. I see them do a bunch of "wrong" thing including making major moves on VOC moon, yet they turn out richer than everybody else I know - Such amazing ability to be above the influece of the planets and determine their own destiny - If I wasn't because I knew them personally I wouldn't believe it.

I can totally relate to what you are saying. Fitting in isn't my problem but that's because I just don't care - if you are good at what you do you usually end up in a leadership capacity anyway where one does not have to fit in unless by choice. Of course I know that this can be a double-edged sword since after a while one starts to expect that the Universe will accommodate one's needs 24/7, which is why I think you made such an excellent point about determining whether or not a request is justified before pushing on. I am old enough to not make premature moves yet controlling enough (haha) to not accept any lessons I find to be ridiculous, unnecessary, or unfair. So I know how you feel.

Of course, to be fair to the Universe, I know I do get what I want when I articulate my requests clearly - I admit that the things I haven't gotten was often due to the fact I was unclear about them. But as far as I am concerned, "patience lesson" is done. Period. Next lesson is to "articulate needs clearly."

It's nice meeting you, too! I've never written such a long post in my life...

Exactly; and I'm all for the fact of pulling out when your best efforts go to waste. Where that point exactly is, for each and everyone of us something different. Where ever I leave and know I am finished, the people and situations created that gave me trouble will have to know to my satisfaction that I won't be swayed off my path by any other reasons then my own honest boredom with it. Imho, I don't want to catch myself using karma or life lessons as an excuse for stepping down at the wrong timing.

"Fitting or not fitting" is more a Uranian theme (I have this planet in my 10th house). The funny part about it: my father has Uranus in the 10th house too. In the karma book, it's the same lesson; passed on from father to daughter.
 

lilllybelle

Well-known member
When it comes to Karma, it doesn't work in the same way with everyone. Horrible people get away with anything and people who do nothing whatsoever are constantly being hit by it. This I believe to show in what "level" you are on the evolution process. The "younger" you are, the less you notice Karma and can do whatever you please, but as you keep getting "older", Karma starts showing up at all times reminding you that your actions do have consequences. This is why as an example those who cause wars are still running around enjoying their money and power.

This is an intresting idea, but I don't agree with it. It's a question I wrestled with a lot at one point in my life. I dated a man who wasn't into religion or spirituality, and he had a great life. He partied a lot, and he was loaded with money and quite happy.

I, on the other hand, had spent many years of my life following a spiritual path, and I was very unhappy and had a lot of problems. I couldn't understand how I put so much effort into growing spiritually while he partied like a rock star and was so much happier than I was. I tried to tell myself it was because I was more "spiritually advanced". I realize now that was a form of spiritual arrogance and a way to lick my wounds for the unfairness of it all. I think it is an illusion to see myself as more spiritually advanced than someone else. It's an ignorance that kept me from growing closer to other people when I believed it. We are all spiritual beings.

I don't think we have a way of knowing why a person got a certain lot in life. Our human brains can't fully comprehend karma.

God has a plan for all of us, and none of us can truely understand how karma works. Some people, whether a young or old soul, were designed to have an easy life or a hard life. Take Jesus and Buddha for example, I think they were probally both old souls. Jesus had a hard life in many aspects, while comparatively, it sounds like Buddha had a a pretty easy life.

I know a lot of people want to get off of the wheel of reincarnation, but I love life and earth. I suspect heaven is a much better place, but I hope to come back to this place at least 3 or 5 more times. Sometimes I get tired of life and I want to rest in the arms of my maker, but earth is so good.

Another thought that this thread has brought to mind for me is how do we truely know what our lessons are. I've had situations where I was dead set on thinking something was a lesson for me. Then time would pass, and I would see that the real lesson was learning to walk away from that which I thought was a lesson. Sorry, I know that is an aggravatingly messy idea, but it's something I've experienced.

I have seen people whom had bad luck with relationships decide to walk away from relationships altogether and live happily as a single person.
This took a lot for me to believe due to my emphasis on libra, but it's true, a person can stay single forever and be happy. We don't have to hammer out every kink in our soul. Not all problems have to be overcome. They can be dropped.

I apoligize for my long post, but I found this thread to be very interesting.
 
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EJ53

Banned
.....I am a Capricorn, say one of my lessons is to learn patience. And say I tell the Universe, "No, I am here to have fun. I refuse to learn patience. Save that for someone else..."

This fits perfectly with Christ's declaration that "the sins of the father (eternal Soul) are visited upon the sons (single lifetime Egos)".....Here, the "sin" would be the Soul's failure to persuade the Ego to "freely do It's will".....saving that lesson (and creating another) for the Ego of a future lifetime.

There would be no karmic consequences for the Ego in this lifetime, since this comes through the Soul connection (which it has chosen freely to ignore).

So, the "I" to which you refer is indeed able to tell the Universe/Soul to "shove off".

EJ:biggrin:
 

Nexus7

Well-known member
I was curious to know where this question was coming from, anyway.

With the Victorian punishment, the naughty child who refuses his/her food gets it presented again at the next meal, and the next..and the next. Along, presumably, with whippings and beatings if he child still 'fails' to learn his or her lesson. Even where there are maggots there too, conceivably.

Well, I might conceivably conclude that the Victorians were monstrous sadists, not that the child 'needed' to learn a lesson, at least not to this degree. A huge amoun of cruelty gets peddled in the name of 'spiritual development' it has often seemed to me.

Ego, soul....I would find it hard to believe in a sadistic karmic judge, or God, that would expect us to take on something our very being is totally unable to accept. I was never punished in the Victorian way I have described, but I was certanly made to eat eggs, which for some reason I have always found inedible: luckily not fried ones, but I still cannot tolerate them.

The point I am trying to make, RuledbySaturn, is that I don't think anyone should feel that they are being manipulated like puppets by 'cosmic' forces that decree that we have to 'become' something that is totally alien to our being. I do remember reading the novels of someone who grew up in a Catholic background and her angsts that maybe 'God' might demand of her something greater than she was able to give - however, there is also a plethora of oher biographies that indicate that 'God' was not the problem, but probably a thoroughly dysfunctional upbringing, with a human father who had demanded thoroughly impossible standards because of his own dysfunctional upbringing.....Again, I think you have to decide for yourself what 'lessons' in patience or otherwise your chart might 'expect' from you, but then again, I don't know how 'impatient' the rest of your chart might be!

Do you recognise the need to learn patience? - well then, the seed or the desire to be moe patient at least is already there, though I am no fan of the idea that there can be no acceptance or recogniton of the fact that oher factors in your temperament may be less patient. As oher people have suggested to you, it could be that you may need to accept it if there are other factors in your char that are not so patient.

What is is about your 'lessons' that worries you?

The chart is only a chart, a map, and 'you' are more 3-dimensional than it, or any interpretation that raises angsts that maybe need not have been raised.
 
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starlink

Well-known member
I like the subject and this is what I personally think. Believing or not believing in Karma, the fact remains that in our lives we are often hitting our heads over and over again against the same wall. Now you can think:" oh oh,this is a karmic lesson I have to learn" and try to avoid making the same mistake, or you can say :" oh oh, here I go again and it really is not pleasant. I have to try to NOT do this anymore. I dont want this pain or frustration anymore. Whether you want to call that head banging "karma" or not, fact is, it is unpleasant and you will do something about it until it does not hurt anymore.

So, RuledbySaturn, if the reactions you get because of your impatience do not hurt you or bother you, well, then there is nothing to worry about is there? You dont have to think: "I better get that one fixed otherwise in another life I will get hit again." It is about THIS life. I personally do not want to be bothered or hurt by some repeating unpleasantry over and over again in THIS life. We dont remember anyways what happened back then. So as long as your impatience does not cause you grieve, just stay that way.

Starlink
 

RuledbySaturn

Well-known member
The chart is only a chart, a map, and 'you' are more 3-dimensional than it, or any interpretation that raises angsts that maybe need not have been raised.
I was told, in a channelled message, that after my first Saturn Return I can throw away my chart because there would be no more karma and all lessons will have been taught to me by then. This also means that after my Saturn Return, while I'll be free to create my own future, I will have no excuse to be ignorant again or messed up on purpose. When I inquired further, Saturn Return was defined in my case as not only those few days when Saturn was exact, but the entire period when t. Saturn was in the same sign as my natal Saturn until it leaves for 29 years.

Have your clients or anyone you know been told the same thing? I suspect this may be specific to me because most people I know seem to still be working on lessons way past their first Saturn Return. Of course, this is under the assumption that I will actually live past my Saturn Return, which I may or may not.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Have your clients or anyone you know been told the same thing? I suspect this may be specific to me because most people I know seem to still be working on lessons way past their first Saturn Return.
No of course not. I dont know what sort of channeled message you got, but it certainly is not true for anyone else that, after their 1st Saturn Return, they can throw away their charts. (unless there are others like you who also got similar messages). I am not going to dispute what you say here. I just would be a bit careful regarding channeled messages. The only thing I want to say is that some people need most of their lives to learn their lessons and some never do learn, no matter how often they go with their heads against the wall, because they think they know it all.
 

RuledbySaturn

Well-known member
There are only two people I know who are able to 'throw away" their charts in their lifetime before their 2nd Saturn Return - meaning that they intuitively know they are "done" (possiblily with agreement with the Universe? I don't know the exact details). I think they were in their 40's and 50's when they discovered that they were "done," and right now they seriously no longer use astrology at all. Unfortunately I do not know them intimately to know what kind of lives they are living right now - one of them is very intersting though: she is very assertive, discerning, yet nothing bothers her.
 
Hi,

This can be seen as a very vast topic which digs deep into the realms of Karma Astrology. In brief though, I too think that lessons that need to be learned keep coming back to you in the shape of different circumstances and through different people till they have been 'worked off' by you. I also feel that our unconscious self is always aware of this, but the conscious self may be led a bit astray in the world around us and refuse to work 'with' the soul/the unconscious self. That is when we may feel this inner tension and are, at all, aware that we "can or want to say no", that the choice exists. It is all a part of internal growth and evolution. For instance, I repeatedly encounter the theme of Nep-Ven square in relationships, and I know that there is a reason, a message behind it.

Btw, a thread along similar lines was recently started by Mayin in the 'Spiritual Realm' section: recurrent theme.

:)AQ7

Well said, but your Soul is not your unconscious/subconscious part of you. Your Soul/essence is different from your subconscious/inner child --- this part doesn't know the difference between fact or fiction, imagination or reality. It is a powerful part of you insomuch as whatever you focus your time attention, thoughts, emotions on it will do as much as possible to fulfil your dreams, imagination and problems. Bit like Genie and Aldin's lamp. This is coming from my prof hypnotherapist views here.....

ruledbysaturn,
Steeler, I do not believe in reincarnation. I myself got into astrology to give me an edge in the marketplace, not to find out my "lessons." That's why I do not go to any regular spiritual or religious meetings because I know they would try to brainwash me.
I'm a spiritualist and have never met anyone who wants to brainwash anyone, you really are niave and keep coming out with 'sweeping statements' with little to back them up with. Have you ever been to a spiritualist church? has someone tried to ram spiritualist views down your kneck. You want to try talking to Jevoha Witness, who come calling at peoples homes in their attempt to 'convert' people to their views!!

There is a awful lot of pride and arrogance coming through your posts. How can you or anyone 100% know their Lessons in the first place and decide to avoid them. You got some unique, private hot line to God?

Steeler,
Ruledbysaturn, I have a feeling there is no point in discussing this with you,
since you have already made up your mind. I don't honestly care whether you believe in reincarnation or not, but that's what there is and it has been proven. You should read up on doctors like Brian Weiss, Michael Newton and so on if you're interested.
I'm a big fan of Brian Weiss and a well respected hypnotherapist with over 30years experience in regression and all his clients cannot be wrong or conspiring to say the same or similar things....

Nexus7,
The chart is only a chart, a map, and 'you' are more 3-dimensional than it, or any interpretation that raises angsts that maybe need not have been raised.

I believe that we have had a 'hand' in selecting our own natal charts (with pro's of course) and the parents, upbringing that would give us the 'stage settings' for us to learn our Lessons the best way. I think your natal chart is your essence and you 'give out and attract to it' the people, energies and lessons you need to progress....

starlink,
So, RuledbySaturn, if the reactions you get because of your impatience do not hurt you or bother you, well, then there is nothing to worry about is there? You dont have to think: "I better get that one fixed otherwise in another life I will get hit again." It is about THIS life. I personally do not want to be bothered or hurt by some repeating unpleasantry over and over again in THIS life. We dont remember anyways what happened back then. So as long as your impatience does not cause you grieve, just stay that way

Exactly, the only person who is not learning or growing is yourself by keep repeating matters and why would you want to keep shooting yourself in the feet? SO, if you keep repeating patterns of 'impatience' with people and get 'reactions' back that upset or hurt you in any way, would you not eventually, look at yourself your 'actions, behaviour' to avert any future unpleasantness? yes of course you would, so why label this as 'karma' it's just about growing up and learning how to behave like a half decent human being, with respect to others and yourself.

ruledbysaturn,
I was told, in a channelled message, that after my first Saturn Return I can throw away my chart because there would be no more karma and all lessons will have been taught to me by then. This also means that after my Saturn Return, while I'll be free to create my own future, I will have no excuse to be ignorant again or messed up on purpose. When I inquired further, Saturn Return was defined in my case as not only those few days when Saturn was exact, but the entire period when t. Saturn was in the same sign as my natal Saturn until it leaves for 29 years.

that seems pretty rubbish advice you got there, do you believe everything everyone tells you? Hopefully you know more about astrology now and understand that your saturn return in your same sign only last for 2 1/2years not 29years years, but does start around age 29...


[Moderator note - unpleasant remark removed.]
 
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This fits perfectly with Christ's declaration that "the sins of the father (eternal Soul) are visited upon the sons (single lifetime Egos)".....Here, the "sin" would be the Soul's failure to persuade the Ego to "freely do It's will".....saving that lesson (and creating another) for the Ego of a future lifetime.

There would be no karmic consequences for the Ego in this lifetime, since this comes through the Soul connection (which it has chosen freely to ignore).

So, the "I" to which you refer is indeed able to tell the Universe/Soul to "shove off".

EJ:biggrin:

How do you know there would be no karmic consequences in this lifetime? The lower ego self can/does have choices and free will, yet you talk of the Soul as having no connection within itself,body,mind,ego which I think is wrong.

If you treat someone badly or commit some crime their are consequences, you go to jail, pay the price. The Universal Law of 'cause and effect' what goes around comes around. I don't think anyone can 'put off' payback to right a wrong until the next life, just cos they don't feel like doing it this lifetime. :pouty:
 
There are only two people I know who are able to 'throw away" their charts in their lifetime before their 2nd Saturn Return - meaning that they intuitively know they are "done" (possiblily with agreement with the Universe? I don't know the exact details). I think they were in their 40's and 50's when they discovered that they were "done," and right now they seriously no longer use astrology at all. Unfortunately I do not know them intimately to know what kind of lives they are living right now - one of them is very intersting though: she is very assertive, discerning, yet nothing bothers her.

This is rather niave, unless you know these people and thier lives intimately (which you don't) how can you or they know their karma is finished?

I can be interesting, assertive, discerning and nothing bothers me but how can 'you' possibly know what my karma is --- you can't or anybody elses or for that matter your own. Your posts repeatedly make 'sweeping statements' without enough thought behind them- is this to challenge yourself or others I wonder?:biggrin:

Why do you think the 10 commandments were given to Moses? Guidelines, rules, standards of common decent behaviour instead of 'cave men, canibalistic behaviour' to improve the lives of people to help us develop, grow and learn morals, priniciples, standards. Why do you think Laws were developed? for us to learn their were consequences to wrong behaviour --- again so we can learn and grow. Now whether you call this 'learning' as 'karma' commonsense or simply evolution.

Life is not like some merry go round, that you can 'step off' if you've had enough (although some do commit suicide) most people get on and off until we learn maturity, grow and develop our morals, principles, code of ethics, standards of behaviour.
 

flea

Well-known member
I take a look at it from this point of view... you can go your own totally....but you're on your own Jack. If you choose to follow a spiritual path it is one where the life evolves past the ego, which is the essence of individual will. The spiritual path is learn to live in concert with the universe and understanding how this takes place.

But and it is a big but.... you have free will not to chose that path. However you are still the sum total of all that you are, and that is frequently not who you think you are.

I am still pondering whether you can outlive your chart...my intuition says you can go beyond the chart into uncharted realms.

FleaXXX
 

RuledbySaturn

Well-known member
There is a awful lot of pride and arrogance coming through your posts.
To Astrologer50:

1. All attacks come from a place of insecurity. Do not be insecure or you will lose all power and credibility :smile:

2. If you judge, you will be judged. If you criticize, you will be criticized. Because "you reap what you sow."

3. The problem with inconsistancy: You've sent me some very helpful PMs and replies. And now you are attacking. This shows a sign of inconsistency that is actually detrimental to your career, reputation, and credibility. Even though I didn't want to before, from now on I will have to ignore all posts and PMs from you as I do not deal with inconsistent people who may be emotionally unstable. I only deal with reasonable people who have valuable advice to offer.:smile:

4. To be honest, I actually didn't have time to read your entire post because my time is too valuable to read long posts from people who do not hold pure intent. But I'll just end with this: I am very good at what I do and so are all the people in my life. I do not feel any need to prove myself to you or to anyone.

Have a blessed day, and may God send you the ability to feel secure in your own skin:smile:
 
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To Astrologer50:

1. All attacks come from a place of insecurity. Do not be insecure or you will lose all power and credibility :smile: Do you know the difference between debate, discussion and attacks?? You started this thread for people to comment on, now you don't quite like what people say or respond :w00t:

2. If you judge, you will be judged. If you criticize, you will be criticized. Because "you reap what you sow." ditto

3. The problem with inconsistancy: You've sent me some very helpful PMs and replies. And now you are attacking. This shows a sign of inconsistency that is actually detrimental to your career, reputation, and credibility. Even though I didn't want to before, from now on I will have to ignore all posts and PMs from you as I do not deal with inconsistent people who may be emotionally unstable. I only deal with reasonable people who have valuable advice to offer.:smile:

4. To be honest, I actually didn't have time to read your entire post because my time is too valuable to read long posts from people who do not hold pure intent. But I'll just end with this: I am very good at what I do and so are all the people in my life. I do not feel any need to prove myself to you or to anyone.

Have a blessed day, and may God send you the ability to feel secure in your own skin:smile:

Yes very mature response, yes thanks I do feel very secure in my own skin shame you don't take your own advices :cool:
 

EJ53

Banned
How do you know there would be no karmic consequences in this lifetime? The lower ego self can/does have choices and free will, yet you talk of the Soul as having no connection within itself,body,mind,ego which I think is wrong.

For most people (I'd guess), the Ego remains unaware (throughout it's whole finite life) of the Soul's existence....but hears the latter as "the voice of conscience".....Those Egos that choose to ignore their conscience will remain oblivious of any karmic consequences during their (finite) lifetime...blaming "bad luck" for all undesirable events which they encounter.....(Perhaps I should have said in my earlier comment that the Ego will be unaware of the karmic consequences, rather than that there will be none.)

If you treat someone badly or commit some crime their are consequences, you go to jail, pay the price. The Universal Law of 'cause and effect' what goes around comes around. I don't think anyone can 'put off' payback to right a wrong until the next life, just cos they don't feel like doing it this lifetime.

Yet, if the Ego regards jail as nothing more than "the price paid for getting caught", it becomes an accepted "hazard of the job/profession" rather than the payment of a karmic debt.....If I "don't feel like doing it in this lifetime" (and I apply freewill to switch-off my conscience), pay-back must be put off for a future Ego to deal with....Since the Soul can do absolutely nothing on Earth without the (conscious or unconscious) co-operation of the Ego.

EJ:smile:
 
EJ53,
Yet, if the Ego regards jail as nothing more than "the price paid for getting caught", it becomes an accepted "hazard of the job/profession" rather than the payment of a karmic debt.....If I "don't feel like doing it in this lifetime" (and I apply freewill to switch-off my conscience), pay-back must be put off for a future Ego to deal with....Since the Soul can do absolutely nothing on Earth without the (conscious or unconscious) co-operation of the Ego

See where your coming from EJ but, how can someone switch off their conscience?? unless they are mentally retarded, which in itself is a 'Lesson' keep being incarcerated and having no freedom, no life except four walls, must at some point be the Lesson...

Payback must be future lives.... no not necessarily if that person doesn't learn they will keep being locked away from society and having no liberty/freedom -- hence the payback/lesson is now in this lifetime.
 
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EJ53

Banned
....how can someone switch off their conscience??...

Al Capone might be an example......Someone who acts consistently from self-interest and has no guilt about the impact of their actions upon others.

.....keep being incarcerated and having no freedom, no life except four walls, must at some point be the Lesson...

Not if you become "institutionalised".

.....if that person doesn't learn they will keep being locked away from society and having no liberty/freedom -- hence the payback/lesson is now in this lifetime.

From the viewpoint of those whom society regard as "normal".........But not for the institutionalised.......You are applying your own values/norms to the thread question, rather than those of someone without a conscience and/or a fear of the punishments inflicted by society on those who do not "conform".

EJ:smile:
 

Claire19

Well-known member
Sure, as long as you like living on the Earth, you can just keep refusing your earthly lessons, that way you know you will keep coming back here. It may be harder to learn those lessons of patience when you are a fly though....jjust kidding
I agree and who would want to keep coming back to such a low evolution planet as ours???
 

Claire19

Well-known member
How do you know there would be no karmic consequences in this lifetime? The lower ego self can/does have choices and free will, yet you talk of the Soul as having no connection within itself,body,mind,ego which I think is wrong.

If you treat someone badly or commit some crime their are consequences, you go to jail, pay the price. The Universal Law of 'cause and effect' what goes around comes around. I don't think anyone can 'put off' payback to right a wrong until the next life, just cos they don't feel like doing it this lifetime. :pouty:
I think actually we have all the time in the world to learn our lessons and if one doesnt feel to take an issue on this time around, then maybe in the future. We are endless beings who never die. Sooner or later the karmic effects balance out. Some that commit crimes for instance do not get caught, as it happens. But there wil be future effects no doubt. I dont sweat it anymore. Plenty of time for everything as time is only man made, after all...
 
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