Rank of Fame

[JUPITERASC]

Dear Sirs
Omnisphericus and Bob Zemco

I know I may be out of line here but instead of trying to prove superiority you Both should put all that energy to good use by helping members on here who could use the help of two so knowledgeable astrologers like yourselves. Be practical, it is the only way to prove what actually works in astrology.
By the way, I have a B.A in ancient greek literature and modern greek. If you need any help in any translations, I'd be glad to help.

Just my humble opinion

Peace,
Christine
Socrates:
I am the wisest man in the world because i know one thing. That i know nothing!

Hi chris10

Thanks for that sensible and timely post of which - being a stickler for detail - I would alter just one word

i.e. the word 'should'

- btw simply this is only my tedious opinion
that I would prefer a slightly different phrase:

that JMHO both Bob Zemco and Omnisphericus
'COULD choose to be practical in order to assist members determine what works in astrology' if that is what both would like to do.

And since both these two knowledgeable astrologers have given plenty of time and energy for free to our forum, methinks that is their top priority.
I for one appreciate both their opinions

So in alphabetical order then

Thank you Bob Zemco and thank you Omnisphericus

So endeth today's lecture
​

 

[dr. farr]

A guy like me could care less what Ptolemy did or didn't do-personally I think that IF we had close indications of the actual time of conception the conception chart would give us the fundamentals of everything we need to know about the basic trends of the individual (like an event chart can do for an event!) However, I believe also that the "rank of fame" and other life factors, can well be delineated from a natal chart, using the various techniques (including Vedic ones, especially the ashtakavarga methods!) available to us from several of the historical authors...

 

[JUPITERASC]

A guy like me could care less what Ptolemy did or didn't do-personally I think that IF we had close indications of the actual time of conception the conception chart would give us the fundamentals of everything we need to know about the basic trends of the individual (like an event chart can do for an event!) However, I believe also that the "rank of fame" and other life factors, can well be delineated from a natal chart, using the various techniques (including Vedic ones, especially the ashtakavarga methods!) available to us from several of the historical authors...

Some follow Ptolemy, others follow Valens, others prefer Dorotheus and so on and so forth - that's not unusual for astrologers to have preferences for different methods. There's plenty of room in the astrological world for different opinions

Nevertheless, dr. farr, although you prefer Vedic/ashtakarvarga methods in this particular case the OP is delineating Rank of Fame by using the methods of Ptolemy, therefore JMO to focus on Ptolemy is obviously an inescapable and very relevant matter for the purposes of this thread discussion.

btw for those who are unaware or unfamiliar with the idea of a 'Conception chart' there's a thread discussion on the subject at:
'The Pre-Natal Epoch, Also Known As The Trutine of Hermes'

An astrological technique from antiquity generally known as the Prenatal Epoch

'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.


....Known as "Trutine of Hermes," from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:

"The place of the Moon at conception becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point."


"But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law, for while the...

Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth

....a very remarkable interchange of factors." E.H. Bailey.


– details viewable at http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf

The prenatal Epoch idea is so well known that astrology software allows the user to calculate their likely prenatal Epoch. The idea of the prenatal Epoch is also useful because it is often decisive in chart rectification

 

[chris10]

Hi chris10​

Thanks for that sensible and timely post of which - being a stickler for detail - I would alter just one word ​

i.e. the word 'should' ​

- btw simply this is only my tedious opinion


that I would prefer a slightly different phrase:​

that JMHO both Bob Zemco and Omnisphericus


'COULD choose to be practical in order to assist members determine what works in astrology' if that is what both would like to do. ​

And since both these two knowledgeable astrologers have given plenty of time and energy for free to our forum, methinks that is their top priority.


I for one appreciate both their opinions​

So in alphabetical order then​

Thank you Bob Zemco and thank you Omnisphericus​

So endeth today's lecture ​

Hi JUP thanks for that


That's much better


I'm sure both astrologers weren't annoyed by my silly post,
they are Both too Great to bother with such an insignificant instance.


To be honest my post was just a knee jerk reaction/response (natal Mars in Aries )

I'm not good at at sugarcoating (scorpio in 3rd, Saturn on MC) and

I can't stand seeing people arguing especially when it leads nowhere (my natal Sun trine moon and venus trine mars like balance and peace)

 

[Arena]

Omnisphericus, thanks again for all the great threads you put into this forum

I am even more convinced after reading the charts of Brad Pitt and Obama that we must use the whole house system.

Who could vote for Jupiter being the the 5th house for Brad Pitt?
He has become famous, and it is for entertainment, Jupiter is expanding his 5th house.
He has indeed also surely expanded HUGELY in terms of having children, again 5th house

Still learning and having fun at it.
I'll keep using the whole house system.

 

[may28gemini]

Don't forget Brad Pitt loves kids and have a bunch of them (natural and adopted). I think those with Jupiter in the 5th will always be surrounded by young ones, no matter what.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Omnisphericus, thanks again for all the great threads you put into this forum

I am even more convinced after reading the charts of Brad Pitt and Obama that we must use the whole house system.

Who could vote for Jupiter being the the 5th house for Brad Pitt?
He has become famous, and it is for entertainment, Jupiter is expanding his 5th house.
He has indeed also surely expanded HUGELY in terms of having children, again 5th house

Still learning and having fun at it.
I'll keep using the whole house system.

Keep in mind that NOT EVERYONE who has natal Jupiter in 5th necessarily has ANY children AT ALL or is a famous entertainer

None of the other kids born within moments of Brad Pitt
at that same hospital or location
with very similar planetary alignments
including Jupiter in 5th
are famous
Only Brad Pitt is

THE CONDITION of natal Jupiter in 5th
as well as the house and sign location of the dispositor of natal Jupiter in 5th
plus CONDITION of that dispositor
plus location of arabic parts
are the determinants of whether or not Jupiter is able to fulfill it's natal significations or promise

Don't forget Brad Pitt loves kids and have a bunch of them (natural and adopted). I think those with Jupiter in the 5th will always be surrounded by young ones, no matter what.

Not necessarily, as already explained

 

[may28gemini]

Yup, I know things have been explained, and some have been explained to death but I still don't agree.

 

[Arena]

Keep in mind that NOT EVERYONE who has natal Jupiter in 5th necessarily has ANY children AT ALL or is a famous entertainer

None of the other kids born within moments of Brad Pitt
at that same hospital or location
with very similar planetary alignments
including Jupiter in 5th
are famous
Only Brad Pitt is

THE CONDITION of natal Jupiter in 5th
as well as the house and sign location of the dispositor of natal Jupiter in 5th
plus CONDITION of that dispositor
plus location of arabic parts
are the determinants of whether or not Jupiter is able to fulfill it's natal significations or promise

Not necessarily, as already explained

Yes, that's what OP has enlightened us about (although some of it I still have to read a bit more about) ... but I'm just pointing out that it is more likely that his dignified Jupiter is in 5th house and not the 6th.

 

[poyi]

Not necessary all people have Jupiter in 5th will have many children. For example an exalted Jupiter in cancer, can be fond of speculation and it is also the house of risk taker if exalted this person with other natal supportive conditions can gain through speculating sports and games. Children is only one manifestation of 5th, can very well be great in bed, art, creativity of any kind and the condition of the hobby. A house of creation not necessary only mean a physical birth and children. To most people it would be just making love and making babies but to other more talent individual it can be manifested as a creation of art, like many famous movie stars, while for an astrologer could very well be developing a fantastic gaming model to gain trough speculation. The link with 9th house will be speculating through oversea sources. Well this is real life example. Must read the whole chart don't be so fast on judgement about Jupiter in 5th.

5th is just meaning creation of life force and the brilliant shine of the life force as the home of Leo. Some can put their life force on a project to express their ego and some can use their physical body to make babies to extend their Ego/life force through children. Not always be an alive object.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Yup, I know things have been explained, and some have been explained to death but I still don't agree.

14th Dalai Lama - Jupiter in 5th house with Placidus House system AND Whole Sign House system

No children
no adopted children
not necessarily SOLELY 'surrounded by young ones'

In fact
from birth and for most of his life
14th Dalai Lama was daily accompanied by people many decades older than himself

Years passed and the 14th Dalai Lama is currently 78
so is obviously older than many of the people he meets
People aged 78 are USUALLY older than most of the people they meet
Dalai Lama however regularly meets with vast crowds and is frequently surrounded by people of ALL ages

date of birth: 6 July 1935 at 04:38 AM
in: Tengster Village, Tibet

 

[poyi]

For Dalai Lama, in whole sign system and using traditional rulership, Jupiter placed in 5th rules his 6th daily routine, 9th house religion and philosophy. In Placidus and modern rulership, his Jupiter rules 6th house with modern ruler 1st Pluto in Cancer ruling Jupiter.

In both systems, Jupiter trine Sun in Cancer which is Jupiter's exaltation. Ascendant Cancer>Moon in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini in 12th (12th house ruler placed in 12th) actually square MC. A lot of indicator about his career as famous spiritual leader.

In Placidus for exmple, his 5th/11th actually continue intercepted signs Scorpio and Taurus. Intercepted signs are both blockage and hidden talent. In his case, we can't say he is weak instead his talent in international networking and expressive religious teaching/messenger. See also below.

Whole Sign/Traditional: 9th house Saturn Rx in Pisces>5th house Jupiter in Scorpio>Mars in Libra>Venus in Leo>Sun in Cancer>Moon in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini 12th

Whole Sigh/Modern rulership: 9th house Saturn Rx in Pisces>Neptune in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini 12th

Placidus/Modern rulership: 9th house Aquaurus>Uranus in Taurus>Venus in Leo>Sun in Cancer>Moon in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini 12th

Placidus/Traditional rulership: 9th house Aquaurus>Saturn in Pisces>Jupiter in Scorpio>Mars in Libra>Venus in Leo>Sun in Cancer>Moon in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini 12th

 

[Arena]

Maybe Dalai Lama is not born at exactly this time at all - maybe his chart is not right

 

[JUPITERASC]

For Dalai Lama, in whole sign system and using traditional rulership, Jupiter placed in 5th rules his 6th daily routine, 9th house religion and philosophy. In Placidus and modern rulership, his Jupiter rules 6th house with modern ruler 1st Pluto in Cancer ruling Jupiter.

In both systems, Jupiter trine Sun in Cancer which is Jupiter's exaltation. Ascendant Cancer>Moon in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini in 12th (12th house ruler placed in 12th) actually square MC. A lot of indicator about his career as famous spiritual leader.

In Placidus for exmple, his 5th/11th actually continue intercepted signs Scorpio and Taurus. Intercepted signs are both blockage and hidden talent. In his case, we can't say he is weak instead his talent in international networking and expressive religious teaching/messenger. See also below.

Whole Sign/Traditional: 9th house Saturn Rx in Pisces>5th house Jupiter in Scorpio>Mars in Libra>Venus in Leo>Sun in Cancer>Moon in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini 12th

Whole Sigh/Modern rulership: 9th house Saturn Rx in Pisces>Neptune in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini 12th

Placidus/Modern rulership: 9th house Aquaurus>Uranus in Taurus>Venus in Leo>Sun in Cancer>Moon in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini 12th

Placidus/Traditional rulership: 9th house Aquaurus>Saturn in Pisces>Jupiter in Scorpio>Mars in Libra>Venus in Leo>Sun in Cancer>Moon in Virgo>Mercury in Gemini 12th

Now to correct myself

according to our traditional forum guidelines:

QUOTE

Traditional Astrology

For discussions on Traditional Astrology only.

(Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700
by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)

These guidelines for our discussions show that
'....typically traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700...'

and Placidus system appeared only in 17th Century Placidus de Tito 1603-1668. Born in Italy was a monk and mathemetician at the University of Padua

Therefore Placidus system is excluded from our discussions and I should not have mentioned it!!!!

I used Placidus for decades (with very good results) In the early 1990's whole sign (which had been lost until that time, except among Jamini Vedic astrologers) began to be rediscovered (as the works of the Hellenist authors began being translated)-I learned of it in 1998, it appealed to me, and when I tested it out I obtained even better (clearer, more accurate) results than I had with Placidus: I have continued to use whole sign (aka "sign = house") exclusively, since that time.

Basically there are 2 types of house division systems: quadrant and non-quadrant.
-non-quadrant formats are whole sign and Equal house
-quadrant formats are all of the rest

Historically, whole sign house format was the original method of house division (Equal house, very closely related to whole sign, may also have originated in very early times)
The earliest quadrant format was Porphyry, although this method was not applied to domification (chart house division) until around the late 5th/early 6th century.
-whole sign format suddenly disappeared (except among Jaimini Vedic astrologers of India) around the late 8th/early 9th century (and remained forgotten, unknown-at least in the West-for the next nearly 1200 years)...
-whole sign was replaced largely by the quadrant Alchabitius format at that time (although Porphyry remained a minority house division format) Alchabitius dominated house division up through about the 13th century...
-the quadrant Campanus format arose around that time, but never really gained much popularity
-next came the Regiomontanus quadrant format, which swept in and dominated European astrology for a couple hundred years, until...
-the quadrant Placidus format appeared in the 17th century: this system rapidly supplanted Regiomontanus (and the remnants of Campanus, Porphyry and Alchabitius) and became the predominant house system in Western astrology (in Vedic astrology during the centuries mentioned Equal house predominanted-as it does today-with a variation of Porphyry-called "sripati" in Vedic astrology-running close in popular application)...
-the other significant quadrant format, developed over the past century or so and a rival to Placidus especially among 20th/21st century European astrologers, is Koch...
-beginning around the middle of the 20th century, some Modernist astrologers began using the oldtime Equal house system, and continue to do so at the present time.

Currently, quadrant house systems (Placidus and Koch) dominate in Western astrology, with Equal house a distant 3rd (whole sign has been gaining adherents but still has only a small % of practitioners in its ranks) Contemporary Traditionalists mostly use either Placidus or Regiomontanus (with a very few using Alchabitius or whole sign)

Maybe Dalai Lama is not born at exactly this time at all - maybe his chart is not right

Exactly - perhaps no-one's chart is accurate

 

[poyi]

I see. I was just doing my usual pathway of comparing both. Forgot this is traditional forum.

Dalai Lama, I used the Astro-Databank chart which is rated as A by Rodden. In Tibet they are very serious about astrology in fact, but enclosed within their own language group only like Chinese astrology. But this is side topic so won't mention too much.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I see. I was just doing my usual pathway of comparing both. Forgot this is traditional forum.

Dalai Lama, I used the Astro-Databank chart which is rated as A by Rodden. In Tibet they are very serious about astrology in fact, but enclosed within their own language group only like Chinese astrology. But this is side topic so won't mention too much.

I mentioned Placidus initially because the chart I viewed had been created in Placidus and I also neglected to consider that this the traditional forum - it's easily done. Tibetans are very serious indeed regarding astrology and there is a form in fact of Tibetan astrology that I have briefly studied in the past. In future I shall remember to not mention Placidus or I shall have to censure myself

To return to topic, of course the 5th house may be connected to Fame

 

[poyi]

To return to topic, of course the 5th house may be connected to Fame

I guess the main reason would be 5th house is naturally under the sign of Leo? Self expression is the key to be famous perhaps.

 

[Xyberia]

Hello, everyone!! I've got a question for you, guys. I'm really really interested in the whole idea of acting in the movies. Not really for the sake of the fact I m gonna become famous but because I do actually like the idea of transforming myself into some kind of different reality. Do you think, looking at my natal chart, I have a chance of going down that way with a bit of success? Thank you and sorry, for a bit off top question. It does a bit relate to the discussion because one successful acting career can bring some fame, I believe.

 

[Clinton Soule]

Well Wild Bill Hickok's chart reflects the 10th house fame requirements though Sol is on the 11th cusp:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69629&page=3

Though if I remember correctly Mark Twain, Samuel Cements was Leo rising, according to Circle Book of Charts, this horoscope depicts him with Sol ruling the 10th:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Twain,_Mark

Tsmall may like this, Mark Twain an astrologer said '...I came in with Haly's Comet and I will leave when Haly's Comet returns..'.
.

 

[AppLeo]

Can someone explain to me what a dispositor is?